109 ex-ministers still getting tax payers money

patwicklow

Half or more of them sould be in jail, not on over 100k a year pension
really why do the people let it happen in this country

http://aprnonline.com/?p=87641

anymore

And what would President elect Higginsd have tp say about Spring's € 121,000 pa pension ? probably nothing at all - after all ' Socialism is the the USP ( Unique selling point) these people have to accumulate thier own extravagant salaries, expenses ands multiple PS pensions. Higgins and Spring are capitalsits except they dont actually produce anything !
Are these people that different from Bertie Ahern ????

patwicklow

There all the one far as i can see..

rockmongrel

anymore wrote: »

And what would President elect Higginsd have tp say about Spring's € 121,000 pa pension ? probably nothing at all - after all ' Socialism is the the USP ( Unique selling point) these people have to accumulate thier own extravagant salaries, expenses ands multiple PS pensions. Higgins and Spring are capitalsits except they dont actually produce anything !
Are these people that different from Bertie Ahern ????

I literally laughed out loud at this!

Vizzy

Was listening to a piece on this on RTE.
While the usual suspects(Ahearn,Cowen,Bruton etc) are making the headlines there are others who are getting huge money.
Take for instance George Bermingham who is getting €37890.
He is a relatively young man as he was born in 1953/4 but he is also a High Court judge.
Paddy Lalor gets €101,000 and he retired from the dail in 1981.

Unbelievable is all I can say.

flutered

they should be like the great unwashed nothing until pension age.

patwicklow

The money sould be taken off them, and then build a prison with it
then put them into it.......

Seth Brundle

aah but sure, aren't they entitled to it!!

Slydice

I wouldn't mind paying for accomodation for some of them in Mountjoy Prison

coolbeans

Sickens me that Ray Burke, convicted for corruption while in government, is awarded a pension of over E100k. If I ever see him I will tell him exactly what I think in very definite and uncompromising terms. The Haughey and post Haughey Fianna Failures really were, and continue to be, a cancer at the core of this country. Hopefully Michael D's election marks the beginning of the end of grubby self serving politics in Ireland.

Seth Brundle

coolbeans wrote: »

Sickens me that Ray Burke, convicted for corruption while in government, is awarded a pension of over E100k. If I ever see him I will tell him exactly what I think in very definite and uncompromising terms. The Haughey and post Haughey Fianna Failures really were, and continue to be, a cancer at the core of this country. Hopefully Michael D's election marks the beginning of the end of grubby self serving politics in Ireland.

A month topping the poll in Tipp North in the last GE, the Moriarty Tribunal used the term "profoundly corrupt" with regard to Michael Lowry (something many would possibly say was already common knowledge).

We moan about corruption and unfairness but we then go off and moan about something else. We don't like it but happily vote for the gombeen who will keep the tradition going. We are incapable of learning. Sure wait and see; FF will be back!

SeaFields

kbannon wrote: »

Sure wait and see; FF will be back!

And their silence on this issue is deafening. Sinn Fein raised the issue during the week and Pearse Doherty spoke very well on it on Drivetime radio. Sinn Fein have to be considered the "leaders" of the opposition considering the baggage FF have they cant have any credibility and we, as an electorate, cannot be sure that they will raise the issues which are important.

seamus

It's a bit of a tough one tbh, not that easy to legislate for.

Pensions are considered to be personal property in this country. So if the government were to simply stop paying these pensions, that's effectively seizure of private property, which would likely be successfully challenged in the courts.

You can't just seize someone's property without good cause. "We need the money more than you do", is not good cause.

In order to allow us to take the pensions away, we'd need a constitutional amendment which allowed the government to seize any private individual's property, "In the public interests". You couldn't just target ex-ministers, it would have to be across the board. Yeah, there's no way that amendment would get in.

But there is one avenue open: taxation. It is possible to levy a severe tax on public pensions taken before retirement age, without affecting property rights. But of course, there are sticky bits in this too. Plenty of public servants legitimately get public service pensions when they retire before retirement age, such as Gardai. So the relevant tax law would have to be fairly complicated and specifically-worded.

The problem then is that when tax regulations become complicated, they also become easier to work around and legitimately bypass. So we may end up punishing people on low-level public sector pensions while Ray Burke's of the world have a quick chat to their accountant, move some funds around and end up losing nothing (or maybe even making more money).

While it's horrifying that we are continuing to pay these idiots such ridiculous amounts of money, the rabble needs to understand that it's not as simple as just cutting them off. Not without giving up ridiculous amounts of personal rights.

V_Moth

I was bored so I added up how much could be saved by cutting their combined pensions to €30,000. Three former TD's fall outside this bracket (Ivor Callely, Donie Cassidy and Liz McManus). The total current cost per year is €8,861,514. At my arbitrary rate it would be around €3,500,000 meaning a saving of over €5,000,000 per year.

[I think €30,000 would more than adequately cover living expenses, though an independent panel could be used to increase/decrease pension depending on background]

seamus

That's a nice saving. But the question is how do you do it? You can't just cut their pensions, it's not like cutting an employee's salary.

scatter

The government can cut old age pensions and widow pensions,cut funding to hospitals and schools with the the stroke of a pen.Why isnt it the same for these overpaid ,underworked tramps ?

SeaFields

seamus wrote: »

That's a nice saving. But the question is how do you do it? You can't just cut their pensions, it's not like cutting an employee's salary.

Would the taxation avenue not be simpler than you describe? i.e. there would be an allowance below which they wouldn't be taxed (same as tax credit and the like that the rest of us have) and after that a severe rate of tax. That would allow you to let the lower pensions to be unaffected but still allow targeting of anything above a certain rate, even if that means civil/public servants who receive comparable pensions to the retired minister/taoisigh.

Would that be an avenue open to them?

seamus

SeaFields wrote: »

Would the taxation avenue not be simpler than you describe? i.e. there would be an allowance below which they wouldn't be taxed (same as tax credit and the like that the rest of us have) and after that a severe rate of tax. That would allow you to let the lower pensions to be unaffected but still allow targeting of anything above a certain rate, even if that means civil/public servants who receive comparable pensions to the retired minister/taoisigh.

Would that be an avenue open to them?

Yes and no. How would make sure that you only target pensions coming from state coffers and not private pensions?

A private individual who has paid into their own pension fund and retired early would equally be caught by this tax.

Although the pensions being paid come from state coffers, they are otherwise equivalent to any private pension fund and have to be treated as such.

I've no doubt that it can be done, but I'm not sure how simple it would be.

The other problem is that if they go with this in a budget, there is little to stop these people withdrawing the full amount of their pensions and moving it to a private fund where it can't be touched.

Vizzy

I thought that the idea of TD/Ministerial pensions were to compensate them for the fact that they were not in "ordinary" employment while they were in the Dail.
Firstly,it is apparent that the levels of these pensions are simply too high but that is a debate for a different day.
The issue I have with these pensions is that they qualify for a pension of about €30,000 after one stint as a Minister.
Then thay are free to go back working and earn huge money while still getting the pension (Dick Spring,Alan Dukes and Tom Parlon are good examples).
One idea might be to defer this pension until retirement age if they continue to work.