Donegal - Dublin (A5) cancelled.

homer simpson

Just seen this,

The Irish government has decided to axe funding for the proposed A5 Dublin - Donegal Route, can't say I'm surprised given the fact that it was to benefit Donegal (we all know that the government tend to forget us) and the current financial situation. Still Disappointing no the less, I think it would have made life a lot easier for people coming to the county ect.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-15658959

cosanostra

Joe McHugh and Dinny mcginley have failed to represent us, Donegal remains a forgotten county, shame on them!

NIMAN

Terrible news, but not unexpected.

The NW, the forgotten area, as usual.

Sometimes I think Donegal would be better off in the North.

muffler

Was the funding not an election pledge?

Ayla

Uh, maybe I'm missing something here...doesn't the N4 & N3 go up toward Donegal? Didn't the N3 just undergo vast improvements, thus cutting the journey time to Dublin significantly? Wouldn't most of the A5 be in the North anyway (but funded by ROI taxpayers)? And aren't the hospitals, schools and general economy in such a dreadful state that the last thing we need to be griping about is another road to take us where we can already go?

Priorities folks.

cosanostra

muffler wrote: »

Was the funding not an election pledge?

It was also part of the St Andrews agreement

But our Government don't give a sh1t about agreements and promises unless its to bail out bankers and bondholders

puffdragon

A Fianna Fail TD has just told Claire Byrne on the "Late Debate" that the project will go ahead , and he added that by the way Fianna Fail hadent promised any money for this anyway,

He also came off with the following gem, Funding for large projects like this is done on an East West North South basis, can anyone please tell me what this means!!

He hopes the North South Ministerial council will do something, aw yeah.

Same old,same old Eight and a half million a year for former TD's and still no dual carriageway into Donegal, sick!

Richard

puffdragon wrote: »

He also came off with the following gem, Funding for large projects like this is done on an East West North South basis, can anyone please tell me what this means!!

It's all over the place.

Penfailed

Ayla wrote: »

Uh, maybe I'm missing something here...doesn't the N4 & N3 go up toward Donegal?

Yeah, they head in that general direction alright...and then stop.

Ayla wrote: »

Didn't the N3 just undergo vast improvements, thus cutting the journey time to Dublin significantly?

Yes, yes, it did...if you are driving from Cavan to Dublin.

Ayla wrote: »

Wouldn't most of the A5 be in the North anyway

All of the A5 is in the North

Ayla wrote: »

but funded by ROI taxpayers?

Due to an agreement made as part of the peace talks between the North and South. The NI taxpayers were paying in as well.

Ayla wrote: »

And aren't the hospitals, schools and general economy in such a dreadful state that the last thing we need to be griping about is another road to take us where we can already go?

Yes, we can already go there, slowly. The reason the road is so important, in my opinion, is that if the infrastructure isn't in place, then companies will not invest in an area that they can't get to quickly/efficently. Investment = jobs = more money for people to spend = better economy.

Noreen1

Yet another government decides to ignore Donegal.:mad:
It's disappointing, but not surprising.

We have very predictably returned FF and FG TDs for years - and we pay the price every time, because we're a nice safe bet, and the TDs don't have to try and keep their supporters.


Personally, I will never again vote for either a FG or FF TD until their track record improves (not that I was ever a safe bet, anyway).

It seems to me that the only way the people of Donegal are going to get any respect/equal treatment from any Government is if we decide to make them earn their seats - and fight to keep them!

In Donegal Southwest, Dinny McGinley, the Coughlan family, and Pat the Cope have been assured of a position in Dail Eireann for more years than I can remember.

In return, Donegal was largely ignored when it came to a share of the pie, because it was assumed that we were happy with the crumbs, since we kept re-electing the same people.

It's not really surprising that the current Government are continuing in the same vein - but, imo, they would do well to remember what happened the "safe" FF seats in the last election, because I doubt very much if the next election will be an easy one for any political party in this neck of the woods.

Whoever gets my vote is going to have to earn it.:mad:, and breaking promises this early into their term of office isn't the best way of doing that!

Harps

Its not a case of ignoring Donegal, they've scrapped pretty much every infrastructure project in the country, obviously there's the argument that we got close to zero investment during the boom years but you can hardly expect them to be paying €500 million towards a project in another country considering the state of the countries finances at the moment.

North_West_Art

the 'Atlantic Corridor' remains at an impasse not too far from here..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlantic_Corridor

Ayla

Penfailed wrote: »

All of the A5 is in the North.

Sorry, can't resist:

The A5 dual carriageway scheme included commitments to upgrade 19km between Monaghan and Aughnacloy and 24km from Letterkenny to Lifford.

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/dublin-accused-over-a5-road-cash-185420419.html

Originally Posted by Ayla ...doesn't the N4 & N3 go up toward Donegal?

Penfailed: Yeah, they head in that general direction alright...and then stop.

Oh you're right. The N4 dumps you at Sligo, from there you have you endure the *horrific* N15 (also known as Sligo - Lifford road). The N3 is awkward this side of Cavan, but even so getting from B'shannon to Dublin doesn't take over 3.5 hrs.

Let's not fool ourselves here...without a major airport or international port Donegal is never going to atttract big business. Even if we did miraculously get it we would not have the population or resources to support it. And let's be honest, the jobs are a nice perk, but no one here wants all the suburbia/commercialized offshoots that come along with corporations. No one wants Donegal to be commercialised, the whole national/internat'l appeal of Donegal is the impression of its ruggedness and isolation. And those tourists who want to visit Donegal aren't going to come anymore than they already do just b/c the gov't spends millions (they don't have!) on another road.

md23040

Ayla wrote: »

Wouldn't most of the A5 be in the North anyway (but funded by ROI taxpayers)?

My impression had been that the original plan for the dual carriageway was to start in Derry cut out to near Raphoe and then taper back into Lifford. The Letterkenny dual carriageway would have been continued 15km to meet up with it. However the decision to go through Northern Ireland was made instead because road building in the North was significantly cheaper per kilometre and secondly the Irish government would have no responsibility for future upkeep.

Providing a once off payment over 4 years of €400m with no upkeep costs for an 85km stretch of road with speeds of 120km/h would have been a good investment no matter the financial constraints short term. Journey times from Letterkenny to Dublin would have been around 2 hours 5 minutes and Belfast 1 hour 15 minutes and all 160,000 plus citizens of Donegal would have benefited.

This investment in my opinion was like SSIA on steroids for the Irish government and now lost for good. There is no way the A5 WTC will ever be improved to the envisaged standard because of West of Bann politics. You only had to see the delight in Sammy Wilson mentioning how regrettable it all was and then watch how quickly he spends the £400m elsewhere. My bets are it will be spend on continuing the dual carriageway from Glengormley to Larne, improving the Sydenham by-pass junction out by George Best Airport and upgrading some arterial Belfast roads such as the A24 Carryduff and A49 Ballynahinch routes that were all pushed back to 2015.

Interesting that the Irish government continue with the rhetoric of platitudes towards Donegal by saying (according to the Belfast Telegraph)

“We remain politically committed to this project and expect work to commence during the 2012-2016 capital programme

Whilst the view from the North is a bit more real

Senior political sources at Stormont said they believed the A5 project was “definitely gone”.

Also the WTC A5 cancellation did not make it until item five on the RTE six o clock news, wait to you see by comparison the east-o-centric kafuffle about the cancellation on Dublin Metro North.

Noreen1

Ayla wrote: »

Sorry, can't resist:



http://uk.news.yahoo.com/dublin-accused-over-a5-road-cash-185420419.html




Oh you're right. The N4 dumps you at Sligo, from there you have you endure the *horrific* N15 (also known as Sligo - Lifford road). The N3 is awkward this side of Cavan, but even so getting from B'shannon to Dublin doesn't take over 3.5 hrs.

Let's not fool ourselves here...without a major airport or international port Donegal is never going to atttract big business. Even if we did miraculously get it we would not have the population or resources to support it. And let's be honest, the jobs are a nice perk, but no one here wants all the suburbia/commercialized offshoots that come along with corporations. No one wants Donegal to be commercialised, the whole national/internat'l appeal of Donegal is the impression of its ruggedness and isolation. And those tourists who want to visit Donegal aren't going to come anymore than they already do just b/c the gov't spends millions (they don't have!) on another road.

Eh, Donegal doesn't start and end in Ballyshannon, you know.

As to your comments about business, I see no reason why Letterkenny couldn't service the needs of larger Corporations if we had decent infrastructure, and do it admirably without interfering to any great extent with the ruggedness and isolation of the rest of the County.

Besides, are you suggesting that the only reason people deserve to have good roads is to service the needs of business?
I'm fully in favour of improving infrastructure with a view to improving employment prospects in the region - but I didn't vote for any particular candidate so that they would take care of the needs of the business community, to the detriment of the rest of the population.
I expect politicians to take care of all their constituents, not just one select group.

Therefore I expect them to keep their promises to the electorate - not to some Corporation that may or may not decide to set up here, and more than likely never have, or will, vote for that politician to represent them.

kazoo106

Its not exactly a boreen from the Manorcunningham roundabout to Letterkenny - one can drive from Letterkenny to Dublin (150 miles) in about 3 hours or less - thats an average of 80k/h.
Yes the road has its bad spots after one hits the N2 at Ardee if heading from Dublin. Monaghan to Emyvale and Lifford to Manorcunningham.
The 45 or so miles of the A5 in the north is terrible (like most roads in NI) - Aughnacloy is a mess, Omagh not much better.
But I really dont the merit in us paying for work which the UK goverment should be undertaking.
I wouldn't hold out much hope for them doing it either however, as all one has to do is look at the main corridor from Enniskillen, the A4 for a shining example of how a road should not be!
Rant over

muffler

Ayla wrote: »

And let's be honest, the jobs are a nice perk, but no one here wants all the suburbia/commercialized offshoots that come along with corporations. No one wants Donegal to be commercialised, the whole national/internat'l appeal of Donegal is the impression of its ruggedness and isolation. And those tourists who want to visit Donegal aren't going to come anymore than they already do just b/c the gov't spends millions (they don't have!) on another road.

Ah c'mon now. I think thats a very narrow sighted and minority view. We need jobs and to get jobs we need businesses and to get businesses we need proper infrastructure so a dual carriageway or motorway all the way from Letterkenny to Dublin would be an invaluable piece of infrastructure.

Donegal is a big place and there's more than ample scope for tourism and business. Proper roads connecting the rest of the country to the wee forgotten county would result in an increase in both business and tourists alike.

md23040

Ayla wrote: »

The N4 dumps you at Sligo, from there you have you endure the *horrific* N15 (also known as Sligo - Lifford road). The N3 is awkward this side of Cavan, but even so getting from B'shannon to Dublin doesn't take over 3.5 hrs.

So you think it is reasonable that the journey from Letterkenny to Dublin along the a5 WTC at 236 kilometres should instead be taken onto Sligo and then onto Dublin at 317 kilometres, or via national standard roads via Donegal town onto Cavan then Dublin at 290 kilometres? With the Irish commitment to Kyoto and cost of fuel escalating with increased journey distance, are you serious?

Ayla wrote: »

Let's not fool ourselves here...Donegal is never going to atttract big business. Even if we did miraculously get it we would not have the population or resources to support it. And let's be honest, the jobs are a nice perk, but no one here wants all the suburbia/commercialized offshoots that come along with corporations.

Tell that to the thousands of young people emigrating to Australia, Canada etc who are working mostly on infrastructural projects there that the price of ruggedness of the Donegal County is more of a priority than job creation - which basic infrastructure helps create.

The Northwest region (Donegal/Derry/Tyrone) has a population of over 500,000 and needs critical mass projects like this to help it compete with east centralism politics of both Belfast and Dublin.

North/South ministerial bodies have been working together and looking at the North West whole region rather than the parts hence the concentration on Derry seaport and Airport for providing benefits to the entire area and also Larne dualling formed part of the funding under the £850m project, since it is one of the points of contacts for Donegal to export. This would have linked into Derry/Belfast dualling along the A6 that would significantly reduce lorry journey times and wear and tear from Donegal exporters.

Key infrastructural is vital to the continued development of any region. And to say the Cavan region (72,000 persons) with motorway access has more priority than the North West and Donegal is just plain farcical.

Ayla

Noreen1 wrote: »

Eh, Donegal doesn't start and end in Ballyshannon, you know.

Nor does it start & end in L'kenny, but you'd be amazed how many people think it does :rolleyes:

As to your comments about business, I see no reason why Letterkenny couldn't service the needs of larger Corporations if we had decent infrastructure, and do it admirably without interfering to any great extent with the ruggedness and isolation of the rest of the County.

So are you telling me that Donegal would be attractive to big international business, where they'd have to pay their reps/directors to travel/stay in Dublin where the only main internat'l airport is? Or where they'd have to ship everything across the country so that it can be shipped overseas? All of those are costs, and all of them are avoidable by having their business centre in a more productive region. I think it's obvious by the trend of the recent past that we're *losing* big businesses b/c of these same (and other) overhead costs. A road is not going to solve these problems.

Besides, are you suggesting that the only reason people deserve to have good roads is to service the needs of business?

Never said that, thanks.

Ayla

md23040 wrote: »

So you think it is reasonable that the journey from Letterkenny to Dublin along the a5 WTC at 236 kilometres should instead be taken onto Sligo and then onto Dublin at 317 kilometres, or via national standard roads via Donegal town onto Cavan then Dublin at 290 kilometres? With the Irish commitment to Kyoto and cost of fuel escalating with increased journey distance, are you serious?

Uh, yeah, considering all of the other issues at hand these days this is absolutely reasonable. It's not like the other roads are closing down and Donegal will float off to sea...this is the way it's been for years and another few won't kill us (unlike not having medical services or proper education).

md23040

Ayla wrote: »

Uh, yeah, considering all of the other issues at hand these days this is absolutely reasonable. It's not like the other roads are closing down and Donegal will float off to sea...this is the way it's been for years and another few won't kill us (unlike not having medical services or proper education).

Again to repeat this was a once in a life time opportunity for Republic of Ireland to buy into a road structure of 55 miles at a cost of €400m when the costs of such roads are €22 million per mile according to the highways agency in the UK. Also Ireland would have had no upkeep costs.

Donegal for the cost of it would have benefitted enormously with something that would have been there indefinately.

Ayla

md23040 wrote: »

Again to repeat this was a once in a life time opportunity ...

No it's not...this has been shelved, not cancelled indefinitely. Let's not be dramatic.

Donegal for the cost of it would have benefitted enormously with something that would have been there indefinately.

Of course it would, but I stand by my argument that many other things are more important, and would bring at least as many jobs to the region.

Btw think you are trolling for the fun of it so I will disengage.

Hate to disappoint, but I am not a troll. These are my opinions and just b/c you don't agree with them doesn't give you the right to go name-calling.

homer simpson

Ayla wrote: »

Uh, yeah, considering all of the other issues at hand these days this is absolutely reasonable. It's not like the other roads are closing down and Donegal will float off to sea...this is the way it's been for years and another few won't kill us (unlike not having medical services or proper education).

I think your totally missing the point of this thread, we were promised a great new road which would serve the over half of Donegal, a promise that is now being backed out of, surprise surprise.

You argument saying use the N4 is a non runner, take someone coming from Carndonagh it takes 3hr 54mins to get to Phoenix park in Dublin at a distance of 270km's this is travelling along the A5 route (which is horrible to drive for the most part) I would Imagine that the route would take considerably less time to drive if made the "promised" improvements were made....

Yet the route you propose is the solution to all our problems is 1hr and 15 mins longer and 100KM's longer. heres a link to prove it

The road was needed, thats the bottom line. The fact that we were "promised" this road and that the Irish government were going to put 50% (not pay for all of it like you've said) shows that this road was needed and would have been of great benefit to the area.

Ayla

homer_simpson wrote: »

I think your totally missing the point of this thread, we were promised a great new road which would serve the over half of Donegal, a promise that is now being backed out of, surprise surprise.

Yeah, and the A&E at Roscommon hospital was promised to remain open & the cancer services in Sligo were promised to be untouched.

It's all fair & fine to go ranting at the politicians who can't deliver on the promises they made when things were brighter, but the fact of the matter is that I would much rather take this road delay on the chin in order that they don't have to cut other, more vital services to more life critical matters.

homer simpson

md23040 wrote: »

Btw think you are trolling for the fun of it so I will disengage.

Mod hat, if you have a problem with a post please report the post and don't lower the tone of the thread with comments like the above.

md23040

homer_simpson wrote: »

Mod hat, if you have a problem with a post please report the post and don't lower the tone of the thread with comments like the above.

Returning to the fray to apologise. Comment has been removed.

Ayla wrote: »

No it's not...this has been shelved, not cancelled indefinitely. Let's not be dramatic.

Let’s be clear, as far as the Northern Ireland executive and civil servants are concerned this project has been cancelled indefinitely.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-15670843

The monies to pay for the WTC A5 project were given from Whitehall to the Northern Ireland executive as part of the Saint Andrews agreement. Sammy Wilson seems intent on quickly spending it before Whitehall recalls it.

My own hope is that at next week’s North/South ministerial meeting that Martin Mc Guinness and other North West MLA's attending manage to have this money ring fenced until such times as Ireland are in a position to commit again. Although this is extremely unlikely.

If Sammy Wilson manages to spend this allocation on the Greater Belfast area then there is no way Whitehall in 2015 or whenever will stump the funding again.

Ayla

Sammy Wilson said this means the road cannot be built within the current budget period, and Stormont's contribution will be redistributed

"We need to make sure that any chance of money from the Irish government is established, it is nailed down, and maybe chisel out the possibility of sums of money within a particular timeline which would allow the Northern government to do parts of the road.

Doesn't sound like they're giving up on it altogether to me? Yes, they realize it isn't happening now, but that doesn't mean that they're forgoing it for all eternity.

My question would be, if NI already has the money lined up, why don't they start the works instead of redistributing it elsewhere for the next number of years. Do a "we pay the first half you pay the second" arrangement?

the_syco

Penfailed wrote: »

Yes, we can already go there, slowly. The reason the road is so important, in my opinion, is that if the infrastructure isn't in place, then companies will not invest in an area that they can't get to quickly/efficently. Investment = jobs = more money for people to spend = better economy.

If this was the case does Cavan have lots of said industry?

kazoo106 wrote: »

But I really dont the merit in us paying for work which the UK goverment should be undertaking.

I'd say the UK government cares about NIs roads less than our government cares about Donegals roads.

md23040

Ayla wrote: »

Doesn't sound like they're giving up on it altogether to me? Yes, they realize it isn't happening now, but that doesn't mean that they're forgoing it for all eternity.

Sammy Wilson talks out of the side of his mouth and wants at all costs to utilise these funds within the Belfast area. If senior Stormont civil servants are saying the deals dead, and the Belfast Telegraph are quoting how Stormont are craving up the money for other departments, then it’s dead.

The Northern Ireland executive did not raise the £500m internally, it came as part of the Whitehall subvention as an additional once-off expenditure. This project was negotiated as part of the peace dividend by Mc Guinness with Gordon Brown and Ahern.

Going forward Northern Ireland subvention is being reduced, so there is no way this project will happen again (that is if these monies are re-allocated elsewhere for expenditure). The 2015 allocations from Whitehall for projects in Northern Ireland will not have monies again for this project becasue the peace process is intact (of sorts) and compared to 2006 when agreed, Sinn Fein and SDLP no longer have any leverage.


The quote you have provided from the Belfast Telegraph is wishful thinking on SDLP’s Durkin's part. And the reason why the SDLP and Sinn Fein are fuming is because the old "West of the Bann politics" of underinvestment still exists and openly rampant.

Ayla wrote: »

My question would be, if NI already has the money lined up, why don't they start the works instead of redistributing it elsewhere for the next number of years. Do a "we pay the first half you pay the second" arrangement?

Very good point. Yes this should happen. However it won’t, because NI politicians are fractious and could not organise a bun fight in a bakery. Unionist politicians have been against this scheme, with many members being openly supportive of the anti-A5 WTC scheme, because it is helping Donegal and Derry users access Belfast/Dublin, and the old politics still exists.[/COLOR]

For examples of the old politics being still alive and well, look at example of cancer services at Altnagelvin. Refused operational funding by the then health minister Michael Mc Gimpsey after the place was built! And only because of the blatant outrage was there an eventual U-Turn.

the_syco wrote: »

I'd say the UK government cares about NIs roads less than our government cares about Donegal’s roads.

Very true and why Northern Ireland will never see the allocation again and so Donegal can look forward to another twenty years of under investment with crap infrastructure to Belfast/Dublin.

By the way to give you an idea of the halfway point from Point roundabout to Clanree roundabout this is the halfway point CLICK HERE. It takes 1 hour and 5 minutes max from Dublin to here (Halfway along Castleblayney By-Pass just before the GAA pitches and Club on the left) whilst the second half of the journey takes 1 hour and 50 minutes but can be a lot longer depending on Omagh and Lifford bridge etc. Average speeds through the North for me are about 55kph.

overshoot

its not just about donegal here, the island is small and the derry is the fourth biggest city on the island, letterkenny is the 20th biggest in ROI (there being 80000 or so in north donegal who would use this road, and yet there is no motorway or rail link to dublin. the motorway would be a massive boost to the whole of the northwest, the economy here doesnt work on national boundaries, one being succesful is beneficial to the other.

it is not a shock in the slightest that it is gone. lets face it, they made a mockery of their own spending plegde today promising to focus on heath and education while cancelling DIT grangegorman which would cater for both, (to anyone in the college this aint a shock either its already 2 years behind)
lets face it if this road is on the chopping block then restoring cancer services and the like north of dublin galway should be done but it wont. its not about a road its about access to things that have been ripped out and repeated breaking of promises

ps ayla please look at a map, the idea of the N2/A5 and N4 both being of reasonable use to people is rediculous. donegal is the 4th biggest county in ireland. distance wise the detour you were asking people to take is the same as someone from sligo going to dublin via galway

Penfailed

Ayla wrote: »

Sorry, can't resist:

The A5 dual carriageway scheme included commitments to upgrade 19km between Monaghan and Aughnacloy and 24km from Letterkenny to Lifford.

Yeah, the stretch between Monaghan and Aughnacloy is called the N2 and the bit between Lifford and Letterkenny is the N14. I'll repeat myself - all of the A5 is in the North