Clare Daly - she's bloody intolerable

BOZG

fliball123 wrote: »

Right I will give you that..have they not said that they will save over 600milllion over next year or 2 on this fraud ?? Proof will be in the pudding as they say

I don't see any time frames mentioned in that Press Release and I'm not living in Ireland these days, so I don't follow the news as closely, so it's possible that's the time frame they are claiming. Using the figure of €345 million for January - July would give a figure of just under €600 million for a full year so maybe they are saying that an extra €345 million would have potentially been claimed in that period. Regardless, it still doesn't constitute €345 million worth of fraud, as their own figures attest to. Thousands of people apply for medical cards or fuel allowances or the many other benefits paid out by the state each year in the hope that they might be entitled to something. In many cases, they aren't but they're hardly committing fraud by applying, which is what these figures and the government is trying to spin.

Michael Taft uses a good analogy in that article when he says that using the figures from control savings is like the Gardai saying that they've stopped 20,000 crimes this year (speculative crimes!) just because they exist. But at least with that analogy, they're at least actually crimes and not the devious defrauding of the state by OAPs who aren't sure what they're entitled to.

Jolly Red Giant

Bozg has answered the issue of welfare 'fraud'.

A couple of other points of clarification -

Good loser wrote: »

I believe there is a 0.75% wealth tax in France that makes €0.7bn per annum.

€4.42billion in 2008
http://www.humaniteinenglish.com/spip.php?article843

Good loser wrote: »

I'd like to see her asked what % she proposes and when she expects the first billion in. She talks as if she could have it in by Christmas.

1% wealth tax on all wealth over €1million would raise €1.2billion

Good loser wrote: »

Strange for a so called socialist to oppose a property tax.

The household tax is a regressive tax levied at the same level for all property and irrespective of ability to pay. What is needed is a progressive taxation system.

Lockstep

Jolly Red Giant wrote: »

1% wealth tax on all wealth over €1million would raise €1.2billion

Isn't that assuming that all the wealth stays in Ireland?
I see no problems with a wealth tax but I'm baffled as to how much can be raised, given the propensity for capital flight.

Fr.Harry Bell

fliball123 wrote: »

She was on Vinny B doing this exact thing..spouting that she doesnt know anyone who is screwing the system..the dizzy bint..they are hardly going to go up to her Hi Claire I am screwing it over..I know 3 / 4 people screwing it and I would bet everyone on this board knows at least one person screwing it...

She spouted ahh we need jobs...and when asked what was her way of creating these jobs.....Well Vinny B the private sector has seen their capital cut from 54billion to 17 billion so the private sector is not going to do..So the gov need to do it.?? So how does that work claire were do we get this money..Lets tax more.....She was shown by the other lad who has the book out that we are past the point of diminishing returns with tax and it was also pointed out that if a wealth tax is put on the richest will take their assets and cash out of Ireland...The demo left totally derived of any ideas to get us out of the mire...Also claire please wash your hair love

Unfortunately this is where the country has gone wrong.

Everybody blames everybody else and nobody has the chutzpah to satand up and say" well yes my people are at fault"

Like Ms.Daly would be better to admit what every christian knows, that there is massive social welfare fraud.

Like others should also admit that there is massive white collar crime and manipulation.

No point in adopting stances and defending the indefensible.Doesn't do the populace any good at all, only serves to drive wedges between the social partners.


Better adopt the Christian attitude and admit our faults and get together to try to sort them out.

That's what the Lord would encourage, I'm sure.

anymore

Fr.Harry Bell wrote: »

Unfortunately this is where the country has gone wrong.

Everybody blames everybody else and nobody has the chutzpah to satand up and say" well yes my people are at fault"

Like Ms.Daly would be better to admit what every christian knows, that there is massive social welfare fraud.

Like others should also admit that there is massive white collar crime and manipulation.

No point in adopting stances and defending the indefensible.Doesn't do the populace any good at all, only serves to drive wedges between the social partners.


Better adopt the Christian attitude and admit our faults and get together to try to sort them out.

That's what the Lord would encourage, I'm sure.

I wonder would the Lord be surprised to know that the last innocent person murdered in his name by the inquisition was killed as recently as the early 1800's in Spain ? I wont go into details as this is not the religiln section !

psychward

Fr.Harry Bell wrote: »

No point in adopting stances and defending the indefensible.Doesn't do the populace any good at all, only serves to drive wedges between the social partners.


Better adopt the Christian attitude and admit our faults and get together to try to sort them out.

That's what the Lord would encourage, I'm sure.

A ''Christian attitude'' or what amounted to a theocracy for decades in Ireland didnt' exactly create an environment of openness and honesty etc. In fact it led exactly to adopting stances and defending the indefensible especially on the part of the church. I prefer the ''Chinese attitude'' aka shoot the corrupt and make their families pay for the bullet.

Fr.Harry Bell

psychward wrote: »

A ''Christian attitude'' or what amounted to a theocracy for decades in Ireland didnt' exactly create an environment of openness and honesty etc. In fact it led exactly to adopting stances and defending the indefensible especially on the part of the church. I prefer the ''Chinese attitude'' aka shoot the corrupt and make their families pay for the bullet.

You are perfectly correct in that observation.

The catholic Church has indeed a lot to answer for.

It's just that adopting stances which nobody believes and everyone knows is not true, does nobody any good.

Does not move us forward, in my opinion.

irishh_bob

Fr.Harry Bell wrote: »

Unfortunately this is where the country has gone wrong.

Everybody blames everybody else and nobody has the chutzpah to satand up and say" well yes my people are at fault"

Like Ms.Daly would be better to admit what every christian knows, that there is massive social welfare fraud.

Like others should also admit that there is massive white collar crime and manipulation.

No point in adopting stances and defending the indefensible.Doesn't do the populace any good at all, only serves to drive wedges between the social partners.


Better adopt the Christian attitude and admit our faults and get together to try to sort them out.

That's what the Lord would encourage, I'm sure.

not a bad post although i cant help but think , it would be every bit as effective without the religous references

James Jones

She was interviewed in Hot Press recently:

"The Socialist TD also offers herself as a champion of fathers' rights, saying, “I have met many men who I believe have been seriously hard done by, by the courts and by the system. I think there are people in the campaigns for fathers’ rights who maybe don’t help the cause because of the way in which they conduct themselves, but I do think there is a problem there, absolutely, that needs to be articulated…

She then followed through as follows:
Hospital Services
School Enrolments
Gender Discrimination
Human Rights Issues
Equality Issues
Equality Issues
Health Services

There are other (male) TD's who simply won't ask these questions.

Fr.Harry Bell

Excellent post, however one thing leaps out.

Is she as concerned about peoples responsibilities as peoples rights?

Just that there seems to be one theme going through her excellent series of questions.

James Jones

Fr.Harry Bell wrote: »

James Jones wrote: »

She was interviewed in Hot Press recently:

"The Socialist TD also offers herself as a champion of fathers' rights, saying, “I have met many men who I believe have been seriously hard done by, by the courts and by the system. I think there are people in the campaigns for fathers’ rights who maybe don’t help the cause because of the way in which they conduct themselves, but I do think there is a problem there, absolutely, that needs to be articulated…

She then followed through as follows:
Hospital Services
School Enrolments
Gender Discrimination
Human Rights Issues
Equality Issues
Equality Issues
Health Services

There are other (male) TD's who simply won't ask these questions.

Excellent post, however one thing leaps out.

Is she as concerned about peoples responsibilities as peoples rights?

Just that there seems to be one theme going through her excellent series of questions.

As most of these questions referred to Guardianship (the legal relationship between a child and their parents), do you not think that making decisions about a childs education, health and welfare are "responsibilities" or do you measure responsibility only in monetary terms, i.e. paying child maintenance?

Fr.Harry Bell

James Jones wrote: »

As most of these questions referred to Guardianship (the legal relationship between a child and their parents), do you not think that making decisions about a childs education, health and welfare are "responsibilities" or do you measure responsibility only in monetary terms, i.e. paying child maintenance?

Actually, I was referring to a much wider summation of Ms.Daly, on a much more general basis.

Of course those questions are important, i totally agree on that.

Good loser

Clare Daly believes in a culture of entitlement - it's someone else's responsibility to get people out of whatever poor circumstance they're in.

Primarily the State.

Put another way - give her power and we would be like those Greeks in jig time.

nyarlothothep

I think she's hot

dsmythy

nyarlothothep wrote: »

I think she's hot

In that Commissar wannabe kind of way.

Lockstep

nyarlothothep wrote: »

I think she's hot

She'd nationalise ya.

mystic86

she really really annoys me

one of those people who really don't have a bloody clue!

CDfm

She once had an election poster on a pole outside my bedroom window.

It was scary.

StupidLikeAFox

And just to clear up an issue raised earlier in the thread, Clare was last seen smiling sometime around may 1997

gazzer

ColHol wrote: »

And just to clear up an issue raised earlier in the thread, Clare was last seen smiling sometime around may 1997

So she does actually smile then? Actually I have never seen Joe Higgins smile either so that photo is a double whammy

Tipp Man

gazzer wrote: »

So she does actually smile then? Actually I have never seen Joe Higgins smile either so that photo is a double whammy

Photoshopped i reckon

CDfm

I lived in a cul-de-sac a few years back when she was active in a bin charges campaign .

Rubbish piled up and we asked her to leave us alone for a week but it was not to be.

Anyway, when she lost by 2 votes in the GE 2007 I knew why.

I wonder if the boundary change will affect her support in the next election.

Duke Leonal Felmet

A two faced, moaning liar. The second moaniest politician in Ireland behind Sir Boyd-Barrett-Boyd.

I remember her championing the cause of Metro North when it was being cut, despite the fact that it cost the most and would have wrecked Stephens Green for 20+ years. She kept throwing around made up figures and back up the most optimistic estimates for completion and the restoration of Stephens Green (sure its in the southside, near banks, who cares?). You know fully well that any such project would have led to some opposition on her part, as she would have a moan at anything. So why was she so for this project? Wouldn't happen to have anything to do with the fact that this would have led to Swords and have **** all to do with socialism or national interests, would it?

Hmm, one wonders...

Duke Leonal Felmet

Sleepy wrote: »

NinjaK wrote: »

I like her.She gives an opposing viewpoint to the right wing middle class consensus that runs in Irish politics. Im guessing thats why she is hated so much on boards.

There's a right wing, middle class consensus running Irish politics?

Since when?

Have we a balanced budget? A flexible, non-unionised, public sector earning realistic wages? Affordable welfare rates?

Or are the middle class still paying most of the taxes towards a bloated public sector, overly generous welfare rates and interest on our vast over-spending?

Sigh, I wish we could sticky posts like this...

Padraig Mor

Lister_Petter wrote: »

Aye. they socialist party hacks like Higgins and Daly always bang on about only taking the average industrial wage and "donate" the remainder to the party.
What a load of arse gravy! .

I presume they also accrue pension entitlements based on the €100k figure?!

Is mise le key

Lister_Petter wrote: »

Aye. they socialist party hacks like Higgins and Daly always bang on about only taking the average industrial wage and "donate" the remainder to the party.
What a load of arse gravy! If they are Dontating it to the party they are accepting it and its just that they decide to spend that money on their hobby, which happens to be left wing extremism.
.

The fact that it returns to the party, to fight (oh sorry we cant say fight as implies we intend violence:rolleyes:) for the issues the ELECTORATE voted them in for seems fair to me, would you not agree that it is the greatest way you could give something back to the people who voted for you? By using the money to camapign on the issues they want campaigned?

Padraig Mor wrote: »

I presume they also accrue pension entitlements based on the €100k figure?!

http://www.joehiggins.eu/2011/02/pension-solidarity-fund-report-2010/

Duke Leonal Felmet

Why are the ULA so moany, though? Other opposition parties and independents seem to be able to get a point across (sometimes passionately), without seeming like a whiney, whinging, self righteous twat. Why not the ULA?

Dr Galen

I've already asked posters not to let this thread become about silly things, like her lack of smiling etc etc

As I'm prone to saying these days.....make your point in the proper fashion, as is expected on this forum, or don't make it at all

Cheers

DrG

Is mise le key

Duke Leonal Felmet wrote: »

Why are the ULA so moany, though? Other opposition parties and independents seem to be able to get a point across (sometimes passionately), without seeming like a whiney, whinging, self righteous twat. Why not the ULA?

Have you ever seen the Doc, 'The GAMA Strike'?

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8522850390691204183

Joe certainly doesnt come across whiney or self righteous, it was a real victory against exploitation, that wasnt about scoring political points, even on the subsequent release of the documentary that was crammed into 1 hour.

CDfm

Duke Leonal Felmet wrote: »

I remember her championing the cause of Metro North when it was being cut, despite the fact that it cost the most and would have wrecked Stephens Green for 20+ years. She kept throwing around made up figures and back up the most optimistic estimates for completion and the restoration of Stephens Green (sure its in the southside, near banks, who cares?).

Wouldn't happen to have anything to do with the fact that this would have led to Swords and have **** all to do with socialism or national interests, would it?

Hmm, one wonders...

An interesting point of view.

Are there any example of fictitious/ludicrous claims by her?

Are there any examples of causes campaigned for by her that have happened and benefited Swords. Lots of politicians promote their own areas and I am interested to see if she has actually done so sucessfully.

(My contact with her on the rubbish protests was negative but I am open minded)

James Jones wrote: »

She was interviewed in Hot Press recently:

"The Socialist TD also offers herself as a champion of fathers' rights, saying, “I have met many men who I believe have been seriously hard done by, by the courts and by the system. I think there are people in the campaigns for fathers’ rights who maybe don’t help the cause because of the way in which they conduct themselves, but I do think there is a problem there, absolutely, that needs to be articulated…

There are other (male) TD's who simply won't ask these questions.

Has she actually done or said anything on this issue ?

What is her record ?

CDfm

Is mise le key wrote: »

Have you ever seen the Doc, 'The GAMA Strike'?

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8522850390691204183

Joe certainly doesnt come across whiney or self righteous, it was a real victory against exploitation, that wasnt about scoring political points, even on the subsequent release of the documentary that was crammed into 1 hour.

But wasn't the upshot of this that the Turkish workers lost their jobs ?

If I remember rightly the Turkish workers were also paid tax free outside Ireland.

Hardly a successful outcome .

Leftist

Love Clare Daly, doing great work for north dublin.

CDfm

Leftist wrote: »

Love Clare Daly, doing great work for north dublin.

In what way ?

damoz

fliball123 wrote: »

I know 3 / 4 people screwing it and I would bet everyone on this board knows at least one person screwing it...

https://www.welfare.ie/EN/Secure/Pages/ReportSuspectFraud.aspx

The biggest problem we have is turning a blind eye to fraud. If everyone who knows someone whos stealing money form the state (and by default from you) then report them. Simple.

Leftist

CDfm wrote: »

In what way ?

In a respectful way, obviously.

Duke Leonal Felmet

Leftist wrote: »

CDfm wrote: »

In what way ?

In a respectful way, obviously.

Shame you couldn't follow her lead, on that.

Benny_Cake

Lister_Petter wrote: »

Aye. they socialist party hacks like Higgins and Daly always bang on about only taking the average industrial wage and "donate" the remainder to the party.
What a load of arse gravy! If they are Dontating it to the party they are accepting it and its just that they decide to spend that money on their hobby, which happens to be left wing extremism.

And on that point I think that extremist parties like the socilaists, SWP, Eirigi and communist party should be banned outright.
They are far left extremeists and often their policies border on the promotion of violence. SP and SWP constantly talk about "fighting" the government and I think it would not be too OTT to think that they would perhaps encourage violence against the state if it were to break out.

We don't allow right wing extremism such as Nazism, White Supremacy parties so it makes sense to also ban left wing extremism.
Either that or we allow Nazism and WS to exists also. - The situation at present is pure hipocracy.

As for the party members themselves, they are the biggest bunch of begrudgers i'ver ever come across. They hate and despise anyone who has been succesful in life and earns good money. Sheer sour grapes.

They are still in a early 1900's minset of exploiters and exploited and giving it to "the man". Total dinosaur politics. This opressed masses and working class they talk of simply no longer exists. People nowadays want to make big money and be successful, not just get by with a few handouts. And this means free enterprise is the only way forward.

Their website often states that socialism is the only way and the 21st century will be socialist - LOL. They only get a peanuts vote %. Good luck to them. We are quite safe though, I mean I know many poorer and what they describe as working class people, think that the SP are absolutely nuts.
Thankfully they will never get power.

Right wing extremism isn't illegal in this country - it is to the credit of the Irish people that it has never gained ground in this country, on a political level at least. In my view an organisation should only be banned if they are planning the overthrow of the state by force.None of the organisations you mentioned are doing that to the best of my knowledge,nor would they have the slightest chance of succeeding even if they did.

As for dinosaur politics, the ULA went from zero seats in the last election to five in the most recent one. It's a minority view,but it exists and I'd rather hear a few alternative voices in the Dail as opposed to yet another FG or Labour backbencher. By the way, the working class is still very much in existence - and if you think people aren't being exploited in the 21st century then you're living in a different world to me.

CDfm

Leftist wrote: »

In a respectful way, obviously.

That's OK if you don't want to answer.

I am interested in her as she is the TD for my constituency.

CDfm

Benny_Cake wrote: »

As for dinosaur politics, the ULA went from zero seats in the last election to five in the most recent one. It's a minority view,but it exists and I'd rather hear a few alternative voices in the Dail as opposed to yet another FG or Labour backbencher. By the way, the working class is still very much in existence - and if you think people aren't being exploited in the 21st century then you're living in a different world to me.

Can you define working class for me as I am always a bit confused as to what is meant by it.

Is there a financial earning ceiling or whatever ?

Benny_Cake

CDfm wrote: »

Can you define working class for me as I am always a bit confused as to what is meant by it.

Is there a financial earning ceiling or whatever ?

Well,there wouldn't be any open and shut definition, some would describe it as anyone who must sell their labour to someone else, others would say it's people working in unskilled or manual labour. To be honest, I just find it strange that everyone these days seems to consider themselves to be middle class. In some of the Sunday newspapers you read stories of "middle class" families who had to forego horse-riding lessons or the third family holiday of the year,and on the other hand there are also people struggling in very low-paid jobs that would also maintain that they are middle class!

neris

Didnt they try that socialist thing that daly and higgins bang on about for a few years there in Russia. Didnt really work out to well for them or their neighbours and Cubas not exactly a workers paradise either

Dr Galen

Benny_Cake wrote: »

Well,there wouldn't be any open and shut definition, some would describe it as anyone who must sell their labour to someone else, others would say it's people working in unskilled or manual labour. To be honest, I just find it strange that everyone these days seems to consider themselves to be middle class. In some of the Sunday newspapers you read stories of "middle class" families who had to forego horse-riding lessons or the third family holiday of the year,and on the other hand there are also people struggling in very low-paid jobs that would also maintain that they are middle class!

So..And I ask this seriously. How can anyone claim to represent a subset of the population, when that subset can't be defined, even by the followers of a party claiming to represent the undefinable subset?

Benny_Cake

Dr Galen wrote: »

So..And I ask this seriously. How can anyone claim to represent a subset of the population, when that subset can't be defined, even by the followers of a party claiming to represent the undefinable subset?

I read an interview with Joe Higgins a while back,he described the working class as those who in order to survive must sell their labour and who have no ownership of the means of production.That was Marx's definition as well.Of course Joe Higgins or the SP doesn't actually represent all of these people,he just claims to - standard political hyperbole I suppose,like the old FF claim to represent the "plain people of Ireland".

CDfm

Dr Galen wrote: »

So..And I ask this seriously. How can anyone claim to represent a subset of the population, when that subset can't be defined, even by the followers of a party claiming to represent the undefinable subset?

+1

@Benny_Cake - it is a serious question as I am often confused by what is meant by it and it is damned difficult to follow Irish politics.

Coillte_Bhoy

neris wrote: »

Didnt they try that socialist thing that daly and higgins bang on about for a few years there in Russia. Didnt really work out to well for them or their neighbours and Cubas not exactly a workers paradise either

Eh, no actually they didnt.

Duke Leonal Felmet

Benny_Cake wrote: »

I read an interview with Joe Higgins a while back,he described the working class as those who in order to survive must sell their labour and who have no ownership of the means of production.That was Marx's definition as well.Of course Joe Higgins or the SP doesn't actually represent all of these people,he just claims to - standard political hyperbole I suppose,like the old FF claim to represent the "plain people of Ireland".

Do you think that 160 year old definitions of social culture still apply in 2011?

Example, what Marx would have defined as 'means of production' would have then been Kapital, such as factories, raw materials, good ol Victorian industry stuff.

By contrast, anyone today with a computer owns a means of production.

Also, unlike Marx's day, people today do not need to sell their labour to survive. So that ain't black and white either.

Benny_Cake

CDfm wrote: »

Dr Galen wrote: »

So..And I ask this seriously. How can anyone claim to represent a subset of the population, when that subset can't be defined, even by the followers of a party claiming to represent the undefinable subset?

+1

@Benny_Cake - it is a serious question as I am often confused by what is meant by it and it is damned difficult to follow Irish politics.

Agreed - both working-class and middle-class are phrases which seem to shift in meaning depending on who you listen to.

Benny_Cake

Duke Leonal Felmet wrote: »

Also, unlike Marx's day, people today do not need to sell their labour to survive. So that ain't black and white either.

Totally agree,it isn't black and white at all.I'd doubt if Marx ever envisaged the modern European welfare state,which probably saved capitalism in Western Europe in the 20th century.There are some signs the welfare state is on the retreat though.

CDfm

Benny_Cake wrote: »

Agreed - both working-class and middle-class are phrases which seem to shift in meaning depending on who you listen to.

So what do you intend them to mean and in Clare Daly's case where is her support coming from ?

I ask the same question about other politicians too. At the moment , Eamonn Gilmore as an example is having a public service worker love-in, so do they fit and where would Clare Daly place them.

MungBean

People who would be described as working class would predominantly be people who sell their labour though. Nowadays thats still the case but it seems to have changed to describe people who work/sell their labour for on or below the average industrial wage. Thats how it seems to me anyway.

And the definition of the means of production has shifted a bit since then in references to working class people but its still pretty relevant.

Victorian industry wasnt much different in relation to the working class in that context as the modern day. People sell their labour to companies in exchange for money. The amount of money depends on the value of the individual to the company. To own the company is to own the means of production and to sell your labour to a company for below the average wage is to be working class.

I do agree its all a bit dated in describing a section of society though but not to be discounted for that, plenty of people still identify with the term middle class and its those people who Daly/ULA seem to get support from. So if their voters identify with the term "working class" and Daly/ULA says they represent "working class" then whats the problem ?