Readymix -v- Pan mixer Cement

lakill Farm

Hi,

Im wondering has anyone experience of readymix versus home cement made in a pan mixer.

I think 1M3 of 35N readymix is costing me €62.50 incl of vat and delivery

How much would it cost me to make a meter of cement equilavant to 25 or 30N at home in a 1m3 pan mixer?

I can buy 10t on washed gravel for 35euro and costs me 10 euro of diesel to collect. Cement is approx €4.20 a 25kg bag but im sure i can get a better deal by the ton.

I want to put in a new yard, farm driveway and also build a few sheds so will need cement floors over the next 3 - 5 years. None of the areas will be subject to heavy traffic.

I read on BBF all the pros and cons of the quality and consistency, but if im taking my time and do it right im sure i can get consistency fairly right.

All suggestions and feedback welcome.

blue5000

If its a big job, and it sounds like it is, readymix lorry delivered in wins everytime.

lakill Farm

No i would be putting in maybe 1 bay this week and another bay in 2 weeks time etc.

It would be to brng the yard up tothe standard i want it over time.

Charlie Charolais

I’d go with the ready-mix;
Concrete company can certify strength etc, the mix will be consistent & they will issue you a VAT invoice.
Mixing small batches yourself & laying them as they are ready could lead to joining problems.
Ask the co. about a small load charge, (less than 4m3 could add approx. €50 to the load)

CC

Bizzum

For the reasons outlined above I'd be thinking Readymix too.
Over the years we put in a fair bit of concrete, using a Teagle tractor mixer and Readymix. I dunno what it is but the Readymix has a great uniformity to it.
For me though the bigger question is do you have the time and the labour to tipping away day after day?
I would take my time. Have a vision of ultimately exactly what you want, a proper plan. Set out the screeds to suit, covering all angles, and do it load by load.
Don't skimp on concrete depth.
1 m3 will cover 10 m2 at 100mm depth.
1 m3 will cover 8 m2 at 120mm depth.

Where there is going to be traffic, I know which I'd rather have!

Another thing often neglected is this: Spend time getting the base ground ready for concrete, it needs to be well compacted and uniform, not 130mm here 115 mm there. Agood rake is what you need.

Anyway. My thoughts on it. Take your time, do it once and do it right!

reilig

Bizzum wrote: »

For the reasons outlined above I'd be thinking Readymix too.
Over the years we put in a fair bit of concrete, using a Teagle tractor mixer and Readymix. I dunno what it is but the Readymix has a great uniformity to it.
For me though the bigger question is do you have the time and the labour to tipping away day after day?
I would take my time. Have a vision of ultimately exactly what you want, a proper plan. Set out the screeds to suit, covering all angles, and do it load by load.
Don't skimp on concrete depth.
1 m3 will cover 10 m2 at 100mm depth.
1 m3 will cover 8 m2 at 120mm depth.

Where there is going to be traffic, I know which I'd rather have!

Another thing often neglected is this: Spend time getting the base ground ready for concrete, it needs to be well compacted and uniform, not 130mm here 115 mm there. Agood rake is what you need.

Anyway. My thoughts on it. Take your time, do it once and do it right!

+ 1

Another false propaganda is finishing concrete roughly for extra grip. My old man was a fan of this in the 1980's. Its false economy. Finish concrete with a 3 inch fall every 10 meters to ensure a good runoff. Finish it as smooth as possible - this will ensure that it doesn't hold water which would freeze during a cold spell and become slippy!!

Bizzum

Were ya correcting my spelling Reilig?:D

lakill Farm

Thanks Blue, CC and Bizzum.

The time and the labour is a key question i guess. The last time i got readymix i had to have 4 people with me. 3 raking and one on the shute and OH did traffic as mixer lorry was on the road. It is hard to get a few lads, even for the morning.

vs, i buy a pan mixer , say self loading for €2000. Now not taking into account tax or that i can claim VAT (im fully registered) into account.

The sand and gravel is cheap to me, so is D water, so cement is the last factor.

Anyone ever use a pan mixer? are thy hard on a tractor? i have a 4wd 100hp and i think she should be ok for it.

reilig

Bizzum wrote: »

Were ya correcting my spelling Reilig?:D

No, I'm still getting used to this modding thing. I'm so used to hitting the reply button at the bottom of the thread - do it without looking, but as a mod, I have an edit button on everyone's posts, and i often end up not looking (or thinking)and hitting edit instead of reply. Sorry. Its a force of habit. :eek:

Bizzum

reilig wrote: »

No, I'm still getting used to this modding thing. I'm so used to hitting the reply button at the bottom of the thread - do it without looking, but as a mod, I have an edit button on everyone's posts, and i often end up not looking (or thinking)and hitting edit instead of reply. Sorry. Its a force of habit. :eek:

Familiar???????????

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPPdRP1oa_A

Careful now:D:D

RedRag

I wouldn't agree with making the surface as smooth as possible if any animals will be walking on it. We have one small part of our yard that is very smooth, has a good fall on it too, so water sitting on it isn't an issue, but what is an issue at times is cattle can easily slip on the smooth surface.
Thank god to date no animal has been injured on it, but they can often slip and every time they do you hold your breath until they get back to their feet. (We did try on several occasions to rough it up a bit using a kango but still have issues)
I would agree with reilig on the fall but not on having as smooth as possible.

cjpm

lakill Farm wrote: »

Thanks Blue, CC and Bizzum.

The time and the labour is a key question i guess. The last time i got readymix i had to have 4 people with me. 3 raking and one on the shute and OH did traffic as mixer lorry was on the road. It is hard to get a few lads, even for the morning.

vs, i buy a pan mixer , say self loading for €2000. Now not taking into account tax or that i can claim VAT (im fully registered) into account.

The sand and gravel is cheap to me, so is D water, so cement is the last factor.

Anyone ever use a pan mixer? are thy hard on a tractor? i have a 4wd 100hp and i think she should be ok for it.

Using the pan mixer you'd want to be counting your labour as free and your helper, and the diesel too. It doesn't add up for doing a lot of mixing.

Spend a few bob hiring 2 local lads that actually lay concrete for others. Get them for 6 saturdays in the year and you'd lay a lot of yard with minimal fuss. If you could have a spare bay laid out (or a few gate posts to put up) ready. If you order too much mix, then you've a use for it.

I can't remember how much concrete goes into a 35N mix, but it's a fair bit.

LK_Dave

Home mix v readymix. Delivered readymix wins every time. I have years of experience as a supplier and a buyer of concrete. But if you are intend on home pan mix I think you need to consider all the facts.

1M3 of concrete weighs proximally 2.3tons, that’s a lot of aggregate to mix in a pan mixer. A 1M3 35N will consist of at least 330kg’s of cement, which will be dependent on the moisture content of your sand. You say that water is cheap- well in my experience water is the most expensive addition to the concrete mix. I qualify this statement by saying that for every one litre of extra water you add while trying to achieve de desired concrete strength will roughly require an additional 1kg of cement – cement is expensive. Simply more water more cement.

Moisture content of sand is very important as it has a direct relation on how much water is added to the mix to achieve the desired strength.

Selection of the stone aggregate is very important. You call this gravel. In my book, gravel is a mixture of stone, fines and mud. Mud in any concrete mix spells disaster – some of it will rise to the top in the fat when you are levelling and tampering and some will suspend and will probably lead to concrete cancer in a matter of years. All stone should be washed of mud if it is for concrete.

On the other hand, if what you refer to gravel is stone down to dust - say 20mm down or ¾ inch down or 20mm clean chip. This is stone that has been through a crusher. This is a great product as it will have many angles for the cement to bind to – better than uncrushed river/lake pebble which possibly require more sand and cement in the mix. Only a cube/cylinder strength test will confirm.

Let’s not begin to discuss cold joints should the concrete not be delivered quick enough.

Do the maths before you begin although it may be wise to have the ability to mix up batches should the you be short.

Rereading your original post, you state that you can get 10 ton of washed gravel for €35. €3.50 per ton is very cheap – I would wonder is this stone good enough quality for concrete. Do you know what type of stone it is?

rocky bilboa

http://www.source4me.co.uk/calculate_concrete_mix.php
http://www.irishcement.ie/customer-support/technical-support/
some useful links
personally think your mad mixing concrete on site when you can buy readymix for sixty odd euro. at 300kgs of cement in 35n concrete per metre thats 12 [EMAIL="bags@4.20"]bags@4.20[/EMAIL] =50.20 plus sand of which there is over a tonne so thats another 10.

tim04750

I built a slatted house last year and before I started I was wondering the same thing as I already have a pan mixer, but after doing a few calculations I used readymix, and the pan mixer stayed where it was.Remember sitting at the table with the auld fella going through the numbers because he wouldnt believe the readymix was cheaper.Also remember mixing enough for two tanks with a shovel because nobody did the numbers !!

adne

lakill Farm wrote: »

I think 1M3 of 35N readymix is costing me €62.50

Woooh that's super cheap. U sure u have that correct?

poor farmer

I have done it both ways ,but readymix wins every time, more consistent, easier levelled ,faster ,etc ,etc,
Laying concrete yards is all about preparation .Spend your time getting ready

epfff

adne wrote: »

lakill Farm wrote: »

I think 1M3 of 35N readymix is costing me €62.50

Woooh that's super cheap. U sure u have that correct?

Bought ir at 58 including vat last month
Gave 82 plus vat 4 yrs ago or so when the tiger was roring

buffalobilly

the ready mix wins every time bought it earlier in the year for €61+vat 35N

Juniorhurler

epfff wrote: »

Bought ir at 58 including vat last month
Gave 82 plus vat 4 yrs ago or so when the tiger was roring

Exactly what I paid last year for 30N10. Was 60 for 35N10

lakill Farm

Thank you everyone for the comments and previous experiences.

Yes the price is right 8m3 of 35N was €500 (2 loads of 4m3 believe it) but to be honest I live in the middle of 4 large concrete manufactures and i layed them off each other. Supply and demand as my economics leturer use to say. In the end the place i got it gave me 35N for same price as 30N to do the deal.

The stone from the quarry is lovely stuff. Family run quarry, its washed first and a mix of aggregrates and crushed stone. Mostly crushed stuff thought. Its real clean.

I will go through the links in the coming days and gather the info.

Where i was coming from with the idea of home mix was how hard it is to get lads to give you a hand, the extra labour money and then you have to be getting at least 4M of ready mix in a go.

I agree with everyone who says that ground perparation is key, as my auld lads (non farmer) says "no point worrying if your ready for the radymix when the lorry arrives"

adne

epfff wrote: »

adne wrote: »

lakill Farm wrote: »

I think 1M3 of 35N readymix is costing me €62.50

Woooh that's super cheap. U sure u have that correct?

Bought ir at 58 including vat last month
Gave 82 plus vat 4 yrs ago or so when the tiger was roring

Where are ye based at those prices. I paid 520 for 7m of 30n last week

lakill Farm

Based on the Westmeath/Meath border. I purchased of Plunketts in Finea and got prices off BD Floods, Owens and Kilmurray precast.

vetstu

We have a concrete floor plant near us, that also do readymix, but you can go over with a trailer and they will make up any amount for you and put it in the trailer. We have even got 1/2 metre off them to finish a job. Might be an option ifyou only need a bit at a time and have a local plant.
They made it fairly dry so it wouldn't flow in the trailer.
Torture shovelling it off a jeep trailer though.:)

lakill Farm

Ah jetstu that sounds like to much work. although it might be worth callin them and see how much a meter of "muck" is collected.

I know consistency is the key, and im labour,but im not lazy and the weekends are my own.

On consistency, my auld lad and his brother spent a summer about 35 years ago puting i a cement yard, all hand mixed. Today day its still fine, the grip is gone , but no other wear. It has had cows in it twice a day since, and everything from a ford 5000 with a silage trailer to a 6930JD with 2500g tank goes over it. He reminded me yesterday. He was one of the sons on a dairy farm but never farmed it.

cattlejobber

just over 2ton of gravel in a meter of concrete... your saying 300kg of cement per ton of gravel for 35nt. thats 24 25kg bags of cement at a cost of 120 per meter mixing your self. if you like the exercise mix away

lakill Farm

So i asked for peoples advice and didnt take it.

I bought a 850l pan mixer in February and on Saturday i used it for the first time. I was so nervious putting it on the tractor. 2 uncles with 30plus years of cement saying i was crazy and get the readymix.

so i mixed 14 pan mixer loads and put in half the floor for the new calf shed. (Im 10 months ahead of next year ) put in 50ft x 11ft x 6/7inchs.

14 pan mixers in 2.5hours and 4 of us. One on the tractor and loading water and cement, one on the digger loading gravel and 2 tamping/screeding. Not one of us broke sweat. 2 uncles said each mix was .8/.9 of a meter so 12 meters of cement all approx

going to take a cube next time and send it to get tested.

bob charles

cube tests here for 35N20 returned at 52N:eek:. Seemly got to do with the limestone used as I taught it was just my supplier putting in way over the top cement

lakill Farm

where did you get the cube tested? and how did you present the sample?

sorry totally new to it but would like to get it done for the laff. would oldcastle labs do it.? im only 10 mins away from them.

bob charles

lakill Farm wrote: »

where did you get the cube tested? and how did you present the sample?

sorry totally new to it but would like to get it done for the laff. would oldcastle labs do it.? im only 10 mins away from them.

Some materials crowd in Cork, they were testing on behalf of the compay and do so many test random tests per year.

cjpm

lakill Farm wrote: »

where did you get the cube tested? and how did you present the sample?

sorry totally new to it but would like to get it done for the laff. would oldcastle labs do it.? im only 10 mins away from them.

MatTest in Cork do it. Your cube needs to be well compacted, the correct size and cured properly in order to get an accurate result.

tvo

lakill Farm wrote: »

where did you get the cube tested? and how did you present the sample?

sorry totally new to it but would like to get it done for the laff. would oldcastle labs do it.? im only 10 mins away from them.

mattest or BHP spealise in concrete and materials testing oldcastle are more milk and water tests. concrete needs to be in 150MM cube and well compacted you could try some of the concrete suppliers and see if they could organise a test for you

limiter12

@ lakill Farm

Im considering purchasing a pan mixer. Could you clarify the following.What mix ratio did you use to a mix and what grade was the gravel used. Was it a sandstone and sand mix or a limestone gravel.

lakill Farm

limiter12 wrote: »

@ lakill Farm

Im considering purchasing a pan mixer. Could you clarify the following.What mix ratio did you use to a mix and what grade was the gravel used. Was it a sandstone and sand mix or a limestone gravel.

Well i say depending on your machinery available go for it. I have a mini digger for loading and its needs. Otherwise a front loader and tip the sand against the wall.

6 x 25kg bag of cement
6 x 4ft grading bucket on digger (80kg-90kg). works out approx 3.5 to 1

I drilled the cement on saturday and im real happy.

She is up for a bit of hire work also. Oh sand was a washed gravel mix from quarry.

limiter12

Thanks for the info lakill. Where there your purchase your one from was it up north or down south and what would i have to budget for one.

lakill Farm

limiter12 wrote: »

Thanks for the info lakill. Where there your purchase your one from was it up north or down south and what would i have to budget for one.

i gave €2,000 for s 2nd hand one. its wrm i think. i bought off dondeal from a lad in kildare.

pm me if you want details or what to call me

bob charles

lakill Farm wrote: »

pm me if you want details or what to call me

How would mary sound for tonight

lakill Farm

bob charles wrote: »

How would mary sound for tonight

typo:o