Messi Or Ronaldo?

bucketybuck

Was Messi really named player of the tournament? Thats a complete farce if true.

There are a lot of players who had far better tournaments than Messi, even the likes of Andre Schurrle who wasn't even a starter but who actually came through for his country when it mattered.

Iused2likebusts

Y2KBOS86 wrote: »

Not the best ever.

He failed when his team needed him the most.

That free kick at the end was a joke, he only showed fight in the last 5 mins.

The past world greats like Zidane, Maradonna would never let such a game pass them by.

Messi was lazy again tonight, didn't play like a captain and take the game to Germany.

He will always live in Diego's shadow until he wins the world cup for his country.

Messi getting the golden ball award is a joke too, Robben, Rodriguez were both way better.

Zidane did get sent off in a world cup final great example he set there. This messi must win a world cup because maradonna did is ridiculous. They are both unreal players and because both happen to be argentinian he can only be compared if he does the same. Well Ronaldo is nothing until he scores 9 goals in a world cup and 4 in one game as eusebio did that and they both happen to be portugeese( see how stupid an argument it is). Dont forget messi turning up and running the show in 2 champions league finals when his team needed him most in games that are only topped by the world cup.
How many times did you actually see maradonna play as coverage was nothing like it is today. We can see messi play every game nowadays if we wish or are you basing both their careers of what you have read, seen on you tube or a seven game tournament.
Im not saying messi is the greatest player to have ever played the game as I think its impossible to compare and Im lucky enough to be old enough to remember the 86 world cup but in all honesty is there many people on here who have actualy seen maradonna play for 90 minutes on more than 40/50 occasions.

The_Kew_Tour

Messi was not even best player for his country.

I thought a certain former Liverpool player at Barca had great tournament.

Iused2likebusts

bucketybuck wrote: »

Was Messi really named player of the tournament? Thats a complete farce if true.

There are a lot of players who had far better tournaments than Messi, even the likes of Andre Schurrle who wasn't even a starter but who actually came through for his country when it mattered.

Your being ridiculous now by saying schurrle had a better tournament than messi. The group stages mattered for every country as without having a good group phase there is no knockout phase. Without messi's goals argentina would probably not have made the last 16.
He didnt deserve player of the tournament but was still one of the more influential players at the tournament despite being poor in the last 2 games. If Messi was some unheralded player who had the start to the tournament he had everyone would say he should be in the reckoning its because its Messi people are comparing his performance to what they know he can do. If truth be told Messi was as impressive as rodriguez up till colombia got knocked out. Robben would be my player of the tournament.

Essien

DeanAustin wrote: »

Why do people find the need to have such extreme opinions.

Insecurity.

There is absolutely no logical reason for any football fan to hold such extreme opinions on these 2 obviously great players.

Fans (not all of them) on both sides like to imagine that there's a huge chasm of greatness separating their idol from his rival, but in reality, they know it isn't true so they just try to shout the loudest to compensate for it.

Billy86

Iused2likebusts wrote: »

If truth be told Messi was as impressive as rodriguez up till colombia got knocked out. Robben would be my player of the tournament.

Absolutely not, not even close. Messi was one of the better players of the tournament true, top 3 - 7 or so, but against Switzerland he didn't do much at all for 115 minutes and against Iran he was simply brutal for the first 90 minutes. Against Bosnia he was poor for about 80 minutes, while he was good against Belgium and fantastic against Nigeria. This is to the point Rodriguez got knocked out, though Messi was completely invisible in the two matches after.

Rodriguez meanwhile was performing around the level Messi was against Nigeria throughout. It could be argued he was even better against Uruguay and Japan. The difference in that Colombian team with and without him on the field was stunning, and he had a good deal less talent around him than Messi as well.

bucketybuck

Iused2likebusts wrote: »

Your being ridiculous now by saying schurrle had a better tournament than messi. The group stages mattered for every country as without having a good group phase there is no knockout phase. Without messi's goals argentina would probably not have made the last 16.
He didnt deserve player of the tournament but was still one of the more influential players at the tournament despite being poor in the last 2 games. If Messi was some unheralded player who had the start to the tournament he had everyone would say he should be in the reckoning its because its Messi people are comparing his performance to what they know he can do. If truth be told Messi was as impressive as rodriguez up till colombia got knocked out. Robben would be my player of the tournament.

He wasn't the best player in the tournament but at least Schurrle actually produced for his country when it was really needed. Fact is, if Messi had been some unheralded player he wouldn't even be a topic of discussion, his impact was minimal to say the least.

The only reason he got that award was reputation, and thats just sad.

freddiek

think its worth noting that Messi is clearly still not 100% fit. apparently vomited on the pitch yesterday.

was excellent in the Group stages and picked up a lot of MOMs but agree that he couldnt reach the heights expected of him in the business end of the tournament.

wouldn't have given him the award myself. that being said his stats are among the best of any of the participants.

He had one good chance, on his left, in the 2nd half. which just went the wrong side of the post. That will haunt him.

this Argentina team was a disappointment to me even though they got to the final. well organised defensively but i'm sure most people expected them to show a lot more flair over the whole tournament than they did. 2 goals in the Knockouts, in 450 odd minutes??...

re. the main question

Ronaldo was outstanding last year and deservedly got the Ballon D'Or, but when the 2 are on top form, its Messi all the way for me.

Iused2likebusts

bucketybuck wrote: »

He wasn't the best player in the tournament but at least Schurrle actually produced for his country when it was really needed. Fact is, if Messi had been some unheralded player he wouldn't even be a topic of discussion, his impact was minimal to say the least.

The only reason he got that award was reputation, and thats just sad.

I agree he shouldnt have got the award but messi scored the goals that got them to top their group and created the goals that got them to the semis so IMO he did produce. Was poor in the last 2 games no question.

Iused2likebusts

Billy86 wrote: »

Absolutely not, not even close. Messi was one of the better players of the tournament true, top 3 - 7 or so, but against Switzerland he didn't do much at all for 115 minutes and against Iran he was simply brutal for the first 90 minutes. Against Bosnia he was poor for about 80 minutes, while he was good against Belgium and fantastic against Nigeria. This is to the point Rodriguez got knocked out, though Messi was completely invisible in the two matches after.

Rodriguez meanwhile was performing around the level Messi was against Nigeria throughout. It could be argued he was even better against Uruguay and Japan. The difference in that Colombian team with and without him on the field was stunning, and he had a good deal less talent around him than Messi as well.

Thats not how I saw messi's performances up till the semis. You forgot to include your analysis on rodriguez's performance against brazil.

GLaDOS

Ronaldo blatantly wasn't fit, shouldn't have been playing and wouldn't have been if Portugal weren't so reliant on him.

Messi looks burnt out. Scored some great goals and had a few other moments of brilliance, but overall his performances weren't nearly as good as you would expect. Messi firing all cylinders would have buried his chance last night. Shouldn't have been near the golden ball award. Hopefully he sorts himself out and gets back to his best.

Pepe LeFrits

ScienceNerd wrote: »

Ronaldo blatantly wasn't fit, shouldn't have been playing and wouldn't have been if Portugal weren't so reliant on him.

Messi looks burnt out. Scored some great goals and had a few other moments of brilliance, but overall his performances weren't nearly as good as you would expect. Messi firing all cylinders would have buried his chance last night. Shouldn't have been near the golden ball award. Hopefully he sorts himself out and gets back to his best.

Agreed. Messi has been very, very static this tournament. Both he and Ronaldo looked like players managing injuries.

I thought Messi played well for about an hour last night, he produced a lot of dangerous moments. He didn't play anything like he's capable of though.

bucketybuck

freddiek wrote: »

think its worth noting that Messi is clearly still not 100% fit. apparently vomited on the pitch yesterday.

It appears Ronaldo is not allowed that excuse despite actually being injured instead of just tired, so it should not be applied to Messi either.

GLaDOS

Pepe LeFrits wrote: »

Agreed. Messi has been very, very static this tournament. Both he and Ronaldo looked like players managing injuries.

I thought Messi played well for about an hour last night, he produced a lot of dangerous moments. He didn't play anything like he's capable of though.

Yeah he'd a good first half and start to the second, before fading badly. Any other player would have been subbed off.

elefant

Pyjamarama wrote: »

I think we've become so used to Messi's moments of magic that we don't appreciate them. There was a few times tonight that he took the ball past 2-3 defenders when no one else on the planet could even attempt it. He was exhausted by the end but I felt he was the class on the pitch for the first 45 minutes.

Even though Messi was quiet by his standards and looks nowhere near his peak fitness, I thought he still looked clearly the most talented player on the pitch last night. So dangerous every time he touched the ball. Hummels is a great defender and Messi made him look mediocre at times.

Billy86

Iused2likebusts wrote: »

Thats not how I saw messi's performances up till the semis. You forgot to include your analysis on rodriguez's performance against brazil.

What was your view of Messi's matcjes up until the semis?

Rodriguez against Brazil got kicked, pulled and shoved for 90 minutes whether he had the ball or not. That was one of the most blatant and pathetic showings I can recall seeing from a referee, since he just let them away with it time and again. It was capped off brilliantly by him picking up a (deserved) booking for a type of tackle he got hacked with at least 7 or 8 times in the same game to that point, only without any Brazilians getting booked when they did it.

They did notify him aside from his penalty, but if that were any other team they would have picked up close to a dozen cards in doing so.

Billy86

freddiek wrote: »

think its worth noting that Messi is clearly still not 100% fit. apparently vomited on the pitch yesterday

I have to ask if my head has been in the sand on this or if this talk of him being injured/unfit has just appeared out of the blue in the last 12 hours or so? Because he has been back playing for Barca regularly since February and I had not heard any mention of it anywhere until the minute the final whistle went.

Iused2likebusts

Billy86 wrote: »

What was your view of Messi's matcjes up until the semis?

Rodriguez against Brazil got kicked, pulled and shoved for 90 minutes whether he had the ball or not. That was one of the most blatant and pathetic showings I can recall seeing from a referee, since he just let them away with it time and again. It was capped off brilliantly by him picking up a (deserved) booking for a type of tackle he got hacked with at least 7 or 8 times in the same game to that point, only without any Brazilians getting booked when they did it.

They did notify him aside from his penalty, but if that were any other team they would have picked up close to a dozen cards in doing so.

messi gets the rodriguez treatment in a lot of games. I felt he was the standout player on the pitch in his first four games although I only saw the highlights from the nigeria game. His performances got progressively worse since then though. I think for his standards he only had a decent world cup but we need to compare him with the other players not with what we know he can do.

elefant

Billy86 wrote: »

I have to ask if my head has been in the sand on this or if this talk of him being injured/unfit has just appeared out of the blue in the last 12 hours or so? Because he has been back playing for Barca regularly since February and I had not heard any mention of it anywhere until the minute the final whistle went.

It's been mentioned very regularly that he hasn't looked fit for Barcelona at all this year.

rob316

Messi hasn't be Messi for a while now imo. He doesn't look happy, his body language is very poor. I don't know what it is, maybe he is just absolutely knackered. You cant argue Ronaldo has been the outstanding player for the last 18 months though.

A player like Suarez at Barcelona will only be good for Messi, it will take away some of that creative and goal scoring burden on messi. Suarez like Messi is player who likes to do the impossible and has no problem been the focal point of the team.

Billy86

Iused2likebusts wrote: »

messi gets the rodriguez treatment in a lot of games. I felt he was the standout player on the pitch in his first four games although I only saw the highlights from the nigeria game. His performances got progressively worse since then though. I think for his standards he only had a decent world cup but we need to compare him with the other players not with what we know he can do.

Messi was most definitely not repetitively kicked at any game at this World Cup, what Rodriguez got and the refs lack of action about it was like a throwback to the 70s or 80s. Only it went just one way, since he got booked the moment he did the same back.

Do agree he had a decent WC and that he was able to make the difference even when playing poorly is a sign of a great player. But Rodriguez was far better in my mind, I don't see how it can really be argued against.

jmayo

barone wrote: »

messi = worlds greatest ever player,already.. marvel at him now,because you surley will when he retires.

Football existed before Messi, try watching some of it.

Turtyturd wrote: »

Player of the tournament for Messi, fully deserved and cements his status as the best in the world.

There have been some big let downs in this tournament, 'Ronnie' and Aguero at the fore.

Your username describes your post.

Y2KBOS86 wrote: »

Not the best ever.

He failed when his team needed him the most.

That free kick at the end was a joke, he only showed fight in the last 5 mins.

The past world greats like Zidane, Maradonna would never let such a game pass them by.

Messi was lazy again tonight, didn't play like a captain and take the game to Germany.

He will always live in Diego's shadow until he wins the world cup for his country.

Messi getting the golden ball award is a joke too, Robben, Rodriguez were both way better.

I heard Tony Cascarino the other night say Messi is the greatest ever since he won so much at club level and just needed to win WC to cement it.
Of course he neglected to mention he was part of one of the most complete and best club sides ever.

Some people have compared Messi in this tournament to Maradona in 86.
To some he has led or dragged a poor Argentine team to the final.
Of course I think those same people are talking through their holes.

Those people neglect to mention the fact that this Argentine team have players from the top clubs in
England (three from City),
France (One from PSG),
Spain (one from Real, one from Barca and another who was in Real),
Portugal (two from Benfica)
and an assortment of players from decent clubs in Italy (Lazio, Napoli, Inter).

Some fooking raggle taggle bunch all right.

Those people should then look at the 1986 team and compare before they utter the shyte they come out with.

Also it is a bloody insult and a joke to give Messi the tournaments best player.
In fact the biggest insult is to his teammates Zabaleta and Mascherano whose contribution to the team was enornmous.

Messi has been the best player around for a good few years, yes he is better than Ronaldo.
But I think Messi's mantle is slipping or has even slipped at this stage.
Maybe he is tired, maybe the joy has gone out of it for him.

Was he the best player ever ?
As someone said before, not even close.

Iused2likebusts

I'm sure lots of people going on about Messi and Maradona and their respective careers weren't either born for mexico 86 or were too young to remember it.

Billy86

elefant wrote: »

It's been mentioned very regularly that he hasn't looked fit for Barcelona at all this year.

It's not fitness when it lasts that long, that's form. Also possibly the absence of Dr. Fuentes as with the rest of Barca (they've all looked considerably more lethargic since about 18 months back) but that's perhaps a different matter.

The fall off of Xavi with age also has to have played a factor, because as great as Messi is (and he certainly is) it helped a lot having the best retainer/dictator of possession of all time behind him. Even though he was widely seen as great, I always felt he didn't really get his full due because his job wasn't as flash.

freddiek

as regards the best player ever debate, here are my thoughts.

I can't believe anyone has been as good up to age 27 as Messi, having watched him since he emerged.

People always throw out the Pele line - " he won 3 World Cups " - , overlooking the fact that he missed most of the 1962 campaign through injury. Thats remembered as Garrincha's World Cup. He also had some pretty unbelievable teammates throughout his career. That 1970 team anyone..

Maradona hadn't won a whole lot in his club career at this stage, he'd yet to win the 2 Serie A titles with Napoli.

so its still an open question until Messi retires and we'll see whether or not he declines but I think its a good shout to say he's been better than anyone there's ever been up to this point in his career.

kay 9

Hi folks. I'm not such an experienced soccer follower as most of you but I have to say, I thought messi was a disgrace last night. He was walking around the field like he was on a Sunday afternoon stroll whilst his teammates genuinely gave it their all. I feel for the rest of the team who I felt stepped up to the strong German side such as zabelletta and Mascherano to name a few. However it was a great game. Messi seems to be in the shadow of the German players, barca v bayern Munich was a prelude to last night. Now you can all chew my head off if you want but that's how I see it. He's a good player but I'd not consider him to be one of the greats. He has had great players around him. Rant over

Cienciano

don ramo wrote: »

fact is messi is 2 years younger than ronaldo, has played about 100 clubs games less than ronaldo, but is only 10 goals behind ronaldo, internationally messi is 21 games and 8 goals behind ronaldo,

14 trophies for ronaldo, 21 for messi,
2 balen d'ors for ronaldo, 4 for messi,
74 individual awards for ronaldo, 108 for messi

last 5 years in Spanish league together, 252 goals for ronaldo, 276 goals for messi

votes in this thread, which lets me honest is what really matters
214 for ronaldo
415 for messi

both players had access to great teams and great managers, ronaldo has had a great career that isnt anywhere near over, but it really looks like messi is gonna leave him in the dust by the times their both retired

If Ronaldo had never played for Man-u he'd have a lot less votes. The only people I know that try and argue for Ronaldo happen to be united fans

Billy86

Definitely agree that while he is not quite there yet, it's silly for people to try and write off Messi saying that he will never get there at this point. For me though there's no real 'best' of all time, the top tier is probably Pele/Maradona/Beckenbauer with Cruyff/Di Stefano and maybe one or two others in the second tier, which Messi is knocking on the door of at this point.

It is also true about Pele in 1962 but does still have to be said that he won young player of the tournament, the silver ball and silver boot in 1958 behind only Just Fontaine whose 13 goals still stands as the most ever scored. I am not definite but think I heard he was the youngest player to have featured in any World Cup at that stage at 17. Domestically he had also won 5 Brazilian league titles, 2 Copa Libertadores (and the two corresponding Intercontinental trophies) in an era where South American club football was much closer (some would even say on par with) the top European leagues and when there was typically a lot more parity within leagues than today - Santos would not win it again for over 30 years after he left.

Whatever about Maradona, he certainly is playing catch up with Pele at this point in their respective careers.

Rayne Wooney

Ronaldo winning the Balon D'Or at two different clubs is an advantage

The only other team we've seen Messi play in is Argentina and he has struggled without his Barca colleagues by the standards set whereas for Spain they haven't done too badly without him it.

I'd like to see Ronaldo win his 3rd Balon D'Or this year but they could easily give it to one of the Germans, he was excellent firing Real Madrid to winning a CL though and having 3 to Messi's 4 would be a truer reflection taking into account Messi has always played with superior players

Messi will have to get back in it next season, I've heard a lot of excuses this season be it injuries or saving himself for the WC, he was just as anonymous in the CL game against Atleti as he was last night. I think the rivalry is what makes them so good and if one didn't exist I think they wouldn't be hitting the same levels. Both still among the greatest of all time IMO.

Tombo2001

Iused2likebusts wrote: »

messi gets the rodriguez treatment in a lot of games. I felt he was the standout player on the pitch in his first four games although I only saw the highlights from the nigeria game. His performances got progressively worse since then though. I think for his standards he only had a decent world cup but we need to compare him with the other players not with what we know he can do.

This is a player that a lot of people are calling the greatest ever.

For the first time in his life, this player that people are calling the greatest ever has the opportunity to play in the game that is universally recognised as the pinnacle of the sport - the World Cup final.

He has a stinker. It wasnt just that he was poor, it was that it meant that Argentina effectively were playing with 10 men. Defensively he did zero in the entire match, and offensively he scuffed 3 or 4 half chances. He was no more influential than Higuain or Aguero.

People are saying he was exhausted......I dont buy this. His season with Barca finished four weeks before the finals began. He ran less than any player that made it to the semi-final stage. Mentally exhausted? This is the World Cup final; if you cant get excited about it, then there are question marks in my view.

People are saying Barca have run him into the ground? In my opinion, Messi is powerful enough to go to Barca and say I want to be physically ready for this world cup, I want to be rotated towards the end of the season and be fresh when the tournament starts.

People are saying Messi got Argentina out of the group stages? Mascherano is the man who carried this team on his back, and there is simply no further discussion, he was incredible.

If I was an Argentina fan I would be massively disappointed in Lionel Messi. He was nowhere near the best player in the tournament and he massively underperformed yet again for his country.

smileyj1987

It's a shame both of them didn't really have a good World Cup . Messi seemed to fade fairly bad as the tournament wore on and Ronaldo shouldn't have even been playing . You always like to see the best players shine in the World Cup but both of them never really did .

Billy86

Cienciano wrote: »

If Ronaldo had never played for Man-u he'd have a lot less votes. The only people I know that try and argue for Ronaldo happen to be united fans

The exact reverse of that ridiculous argument can be made just as easily, I since he was by far the most hated player on England during his time there and so many were delighted to write him off before 2006 as useless that they still seem to hold a grudge over being proven so thoroughly wrong.

CSF

Non-United fan and I'd have Ronaldo. Messi would not be the same player outside Barca and would not be as effective as Ronaldo was in England, I'm becoming increasingly confident of both these opinions.

bucketybuck

smileyj1987 wrote: »

It's a shame both of them didn't really have a good World Cup . Messi seemed to fade fairly bad as the tournament wore on and Ronaldo shouldn't have even been playing . You always like to see the best players shine in the World Cup but both of them never really did .

Thats the biggest disappointment in this tournament for me, the fact that it was missing all its big stars. Ronaldo was injured and probably shouldn't have played, Messi didn't live up to his billing, and then you have Falcao, Ribery, Reus and Aguero all injured and missing out completely. No Ibrahimovic either, you want to see these guys perform at the top and we didn't really get that.

average hero

Probably the toughest question of all time! For me - it's Ronaldo. Messi is an amazing player, among the best ever seen but I see Ronaldo as a more rounded player. Ronaldo is nearly as devastating with his left as his right foot and is dynamite in the air too, especially in comparison to Messi.

Ronaldo was the difference for a few years for Manchester United and also with a Real Madrid that without him would have looked less than convincing. He has won the Champions League with two different clubs with different sets of players too. I view Ronaldo as the more powerful, faster player who can play in more positions than Messi. Up front, number 10, on either wing. Messi had a strop when he played on the wing this year.

Messi has done an awful lot with the likes of Puyol, Yaya Toure, Fabregas, Xavi and Iniesta around him, players that I consider to be world class. With Argentina throughout the years, Messi has been less impressive than with Barcelona. This tournament, they got out of the group with Bosnia & Herzogovina, Nigeria and Iran. The basis of their knockout round success was a solid defense and then Messi was surrounded by world class players like Levezzi, Aguero, Higuain and Di Maria.

This is not a knocking of Messi, just my reasons for picking Ronaldo over him. Messi is world class but they're just my reasons for picking Ronaldo over him.

Billy86

CSF wrote: »

Non-United fan and I'd have Ronaldo. Messi would not be the same player outside Barca and would not be as effective as Ronaldo was in England, I'm becoming increasingly confident of both these opinions.

That to me is the big question mark around Messi. He would stoll be quality, but just how much is completely unknown. For my money Xavi/Iniesta were just as important for that period of dominance Barca had, and it showed that Spain were hugely dominant while Argentina struggled in that time also. I personally don't know if the World Cup itself is the big thing Messi needs to do, but just to excel as much as he does there (or close to it) in a different team, be that Argentina, a revamped Barca, or a different club altogether.

WesternZulu

average hero wrote: »

He has won the Champions League with two different clubs with different sets of players too.

To be honest it'd be hard to win it with two different clubs with the same set of players.

average hero

hahahahahahahaha very good WesternZulu. It would most definitely! Very good! Good point and contribution to the discussion.

The point was that the different clubs had different players, different opposition sets of players, different tactics, were in different countries with different styles of play, different personalities in the dressing room and a raft of other differences! The whole shebang!

Good lad WZ - thanks!

Iused2likebusts

average hero wrote: »

hahahahahahahaha very good WesternZulu. It would most definitely! Very good! Good point and contribution to the discussion.

The point was that the different clubs had different players, different opposition sets of players, different tactics, were in different countries with different styles of play, different personalities in the dressing room and a raft of other differences! The whole shebang!

Good lad WZ - thanks!

Chill out it was just a joke. We all understood what you were trying to say.

MD1990

I think it was a mistake having Messi as the captain. His body language here is poor.

bucketybuck

Billy86 wrote: »

That to me is the big question mark around Messi. He would stoll be quality, but just how much is completely unknown. For my money Xavi/Iniesta were just as important for that period of dominance Barca had

The Xavi question is always going to hang over Messi come the final reckoning. He had the perhaps the finest midfield of all time behind him for his period of dominance and his detractors will always rightfully point out that without them he just might not have looked as impressive.

Here he had the perfect chance to answer that criticism, to perform without Xavi and Iniesta pulling the strings. Argentina had quality players but they weren't Xavi/Iniesta so he had the chance to show it was all himself.

He didn't take that chance.

Billy86

It is incredible how willingly that has been overlooked, and a good example of how Messi gets the kiddie gloves treatment while being lauded for every positive thing he does. Ronaldo takes his top off after scoring in a CL final, a meaningless penalty, but still a goal in the city rivals stadium of where he grew up playing since he was 11 in the game that got Madrid that whole La Decima a thing they were obsessed with, and got ripped to shreds about being all about himself and not the team.

Messi literally walks away from a highly charged team talk in the last game of the coach who basically gave him control of the team, and also by a guy who could not have possibly put any more effort in than all tournament (Mascherano , with 15 minutes to win the World Cup having looked disinterested all night... and barely a word is said about it.

Iused2likebusts

Ronaldo has done great to win all those trophies and score all those goals with the likes of Glenn whelan Bradley Johnson and Charlie Adam playing behind him. Also to inspire man utd and real Madrid to win a trophy it's really been against all the odds and something that could never have been expected of him.

Billy86

Iused2likebusts wrote: »

Ronaldo has done great to win all those trophies and score all those goals with the likes of Glenn whelan Bradley Johnson and Charlie Adam playing behind him. Also to inspire man utd and real Madrid to win a trophy it's really been against all the odds and something that could never have been expected of him.

It's almost as if you are intentionally trying to miss the point.

Rayne Wooney

Nobody is trying to make out Ronaldo played with a bunch of amateurs but during that 4 year period Barca were one of the greatest club team of all time, the players all over the pitch just aren't as good as what Messi has played with

Tombo2001

MD1990 wrote: »

I think it was a mistake having Messi as the captain. His body language here is poor.

I think he was texting Iniesta about strategy for the Levante match next month.

RedemptionZ

I know talking to any Argentinians I know, Messi is considered more Spanish than Argie by a lot of them. Possibly some truth in it, he's spent more of his life in Barca, perhaps he finds himself more loyal to them? Shouldn't walk away from team talk unless you're a keeper preparing for a penalty shootout, even then if you're the captain you should stay.

Tenshot

Apologies if this link was posted already (couldn't find it earlier in the thread).

Makes a good case for Messi's raw performance vs Ronaldo's, recent games not withstanding:

http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/lionel-messi-is-impossible/

(via the always-worth-reading kottke.org)

Here's a quick sample:

Montroseee

MD1990 wrote: »

I think it was a mistake having Messi as the captain. His body language here is poor.

That's actually a disgrace for being captain of the team. He walked away early aswell, Masch. was the hero of that team.

jmayo

freddiek wrote: »

as regards the best player ever debate, here are my thoughts.

I can't believe anyone has been as good up to age 27 as Messi, having watched him since he emerged.

People always throw out the Pele line - " he won 3 World Cups " - , overlooking the fact that he missed most of the 1962 campaign through injury. Thats remembered as Garrincha's World Cup. He also had some pretty unbelievable teammates throughout his career. That 1970 team anyone..

Maradona hadn't won a whole lot in his club career at this stage, he'd yet to win the 2 Serie A titles with Napoli.

Messi has been at Barca one of the world's top clubs since he was a kid.
He also arrived into the first team with a bunch of players who were truly world class and the team had begun to play a brand of football probably tailor made for his skills.

On the other hand Maradona spent his youth with Argentinos Juniors who only won league titles years after he left.
And with Boca Juniors where he won one league title AFAIK.

Then onto Barca, who hadn't won a league title for 8 odd years, had never won a CL/European Cup.
Whilst there he suffered from a bout of hepatitis and then a broken ankle caused by Athletic Bilbao's Goikoetxea.
That was something that nearly finished his career.
Watch some highlights of his time at Barca and it sometimes looks like Johnny Giles' Leeds era.

Then he went to Napoli who had never won a Seria A title.
And he dragged a team of ordinary players and a few good players like Careca, Ferrara, De Napoli & Alemao to Seria A and UEFA success.

I am tired of saying Messi has been the greatest player aound for a while, but just because other (IMHO even greater) players haven't won as much is not down to Messi being greater, but the circumstances and the players at his side.

I think the fact he walked away from a team talk says a bit and leaves a hell of an amount of questions.
Would Maradona, Zidane, Beckenbauer have done that when they led teams to WC finals ?

Not going to comment on Cruyff since he is Dutch and could be a narky fecker.