Messi Or Ronaldo?

Lennonist

CSF wrote: »

Non-United fan and I'd have Ronaldo. Messi would not be the same player outside Barca and would not be as effective as Ronaldo was in England, I'm becoming increasingly confident of both these opinions.

Yeah. Messi couldn't hack it on a wet November night in Burnley:rolleyes:

bucketybuck

Lennonist wrote: »

Yeah. Messi couldn't hack it on a wet November night in Burnley:rolleyes:

But he is right, Messi isn't the same player outside of Barcelona, we have just seen that.

Iused2likebusts

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

Nobody is trying to make out Ronaldo played with a bunch of amateurs but during that 4 year period Barca were one of the greatest club team of all time

Of which Messi was the star player

Billy86

Iused2likebusts wrote: »

Of which Messi was the star player

Xavi and probably Iniesta were just as important to that team. No Xavi, no routine 70% possession per game.

From about 2008-12,take out Messi from Barca and Ronaldo from Man Utd/Madrid, replace them with good 8/10 type players, and Barca are the best of those three by a large distance.

Basically you would have a team very similar to the 2008 EC, 2010 WC and 2012 EC champions, lauded as possibly the best national team of all time.

Richard Hillman

What is the story with Messi's fitness? He missed a lot of games this season so is fairly well rested compared to the rest of his team mates. In every game he played in he was bottom of the distance covered stats and looked shattered despite posting up some fairly feeble distance stats. In the game V Switzerland he was 1km below anybody else on the pitch after 90mins. Do Barcelona let him away with fitness training?

Tombo2001

I dont think anyone can deny Messi's greatness.

What is in question here is whether a player can be considered the greatest ever if he has consistently failed to deliver on the international stage.

No matter which way you cut it, international football is the most highly pressurised environment, there is more at stake than in any other event.

Nailz

I have no problem with Messi, but there was an unbelievable amount of people yesterday who were supporting Argentina just because he could win a World Cup, which I think is senseless and plain daft.

Germany deserved it and were by far the best team in the tournament and fully deserved their win. It think everyone can agree with that. Messi went missing in the Semi and in the Final BIG TIME and wasn't in the least bit outstanding against Switzerland, and all the other teams he faced were Mickey Mouse opposition.

How he managed to get Player Of The Tournament I don't know, if I were Robben or James Rodriguez I would feel very hard done by. He was pretty average this World Cup in relation to what is typically expected of him (which I do think is unfair, he's just a man after all). In my opinion though, the likes Mascherano and Lavezzi carried Argentina more than Messi did this tournament.


With regard to comparing Messi to Ronaldo, that Portugal side is a far worse team than that Argentina side, and leaving Messi and Ronaldo out of it, I think Argentina would hammer Portugal on a purely man to man basis.
So comparing them on their progression in this World Cup is utterly ridiculous, and it is laughable to see people sprouting nonsense like "how did Ronaldo do in the semi" and similar bull...
Also consider that Portugal's group was far more difficult than Argentina's.

bucketybuck

Richard Hillman wrote: »

What is the story with Messi's fitness?

There wasn't a mention of Messi's fitness before the tournament, its only now that its being used as an excuse.

Billy86

Richard Hillman wrote: »

What is the story with Messi's fitness? He missed a lot of games this season so is fairly well rested compared to the rest of his team mates. In every game he played in he was bottom of the distance covered stats and looked shattered despite posting up some fairly feeble distance stats. In the game V Switzerland he was 1km below anybody else on the pitch after 90mins. Do Barcelona let him away with fitness training?

Let's just say there has been a lot of talk that Barcelona had to offload some medical staff around the time the Lance Armstrong scandal broke 18 or so months back (many of them were Spanish based) and it has coincided quite interestingly with them going from being the one of hardest working, most aggressively pressing teams the world might have ever seen despite a small squad playing a lot of games year in year out (having previously been a very technically gifted but not exactly ultra athletic side, to put it one way) to a team that cannot keep up with the pace of games and look gassed when they try to even get close to the efforts they were putting in previously.

Not saying it is definite, but the timing is very interesting (remember their CL knockout against Bayern last season for example), and the Spanish courts did order that certain sports like football be made exempt and all blood samples be destroyed without any identification or anything.

Not that they would have any vested interests, like say three major international trophies for a football crazy country that previously only had a single one from over 50 years previous.

Now if you'll excuse me, there appears to be a slight tear developing in my tinfoil hat.

bullvine

I agree about the fitness excuse, never heard of it until the last two games, not a mention of it during the group stages, it looks like he saved himself for the world cup and it failed.

Its also entirely possible that hes in decline. It happens, maybe he peaked too early, hes been the best player on the planet since he was 22, players like Ronaldo and Robben have been getting better with age, maybe Messi is just burnt out.

Turtwig

bucketybuck wrote: »

There wasn't a mention of Messi's fitness before the tournament, its only now that its being used as an excuse.

It's been mentioned in every Barcelona game since January.

Billy86

Turtwig wrote: »

It's been mentioned in every Barcelona game since January.

Six months us quite some time to still be recovering from an injury...

Turtwig

Billy86 wrote: »

Six months us quite some time to still be recovering from an injury...

Some people never recover.

Fact is since last year messi has not been Messi. He's still phenomenal though. But not the same player. Claiming you didn't hear this "excuse" or whatever just shows you haven't actually been watching him play. Almost every single game it's mentioned.

Even when was at Barca he'd often throw up mid match.

Richard Hillman

I wasnt talking about injury fitness, I am talking about a general level of fitness. He was shattered against Switzerland after running just under 10km in 105 mins. Averaging roughly 6 kph is a sprightly walking speed.

Turtwig

Richard Hillman wrote: »

I wasnt talking about injury fitness, I am talking about a general level of fitness. He was shattered against Switzerland after running just under 10km in 105 mins. Averaging roughly 6 kph is a sprightly walking speed.

That's what I was talking about too.

Iused2likebusts

Billy86 wrote: »

Xavi and probably Iniesta were just as important to that team. No Xavi, no routine 70% possession per game.

.

No Messi and there's no end product as much as I love the two lads your rewriting history a bit there.

Rayne Wooney

Iused2likebusts wrote: »

No Messi and there's no end product as much as I love the two lads your rewriting history a bit there.

Spain won a euros and World Cup without an end product so

Iused2likebusts

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

Spain won a euros and World Cup without an end product so

Spain aren't barcelona

Billy86

Turtwig wrote: »

Some people never recover.

Fact is since last year messi has not been Messi. He's still phenomenal though. But not the same player. Claiming you didn't hear this "excuse" or whatever just shows you haven't actually been watching him play. Almost every single game it's mentioned.

Even when was at Barca he'd often throw up mid match.

Could well have something to do with not being the main target of one of, possibly the, best attacking team of all time is all I'm saying. Barca are still really good but their mysterious and instantaneous dropping off has coincided with Messi's also.

Billy86

Iused2likebusts wrote: »

No Messi and there's no end product as much as I love the two lads your rewriting history a bit there.

Like I said, replace him with a decent player and there is. Sure maybe not as much but still enough to dominate. Pointing to Spains successes from 2008-12 is not exactly rewriting history.

Rayne Wooney

Iused2likebusts wrote: »

Spain aren't barcelona

7 of the 10 outfield players in the final were Barcelona players, you're missing Messi, Alvez and Abidal really. They did fine without him

Billy86

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

7 of the 10 outfield players in the final were Barcelona players, you're missing Messi, Alvez and Abidal really. They did fine without him

And they played an extremely similar style to Barcelona because of the success if had brought the club team.

Lennonist

Billy86 wrote: »

Could well have something to do with not being the main target of one of, possibly the, best attacking team of all time is all I'm saying. Barca are still really good but their mysterious and instantaneous dropping off has coincided with Messi's also.

Don't you think that Barca's form dropped off, simply because they've won everything there is to win on multiple occasions and motivation dropped a bit. Same with the Spanish national team, also fatigue has set in due to all the football they've been playing due to being involved in the latter stages of various club and international tournaments. Barca should give Messi some time off and get him to recharge the batteries now. They've got Suarez as well now, and that's probably why they bought him, they've been relying too much on Messi.

jmayo

Lennonist wrote: »

Don't you think that Barca's form dropped off, simply because they've won everything there is to win on multiple occasions and motivation dropped a bit. Same with the Spanish national team, also fatigue has set in due to all the football they've been playing due to being involved in the latter stages of various club and international tournaments. Barca should give Messi some time off and get him to recharge the batteries now. They've got Suarez as well now, and that's probably why they bought him, they've been relying too much on Messi.

Isn't Suarez banned for the next few months and I presume Neymar can't be rushed back.

So much for resting him.

CSF

Lennonist wrote: »

Yeah. Messi couldn't hack it on a wet November night in Burnley:rolleyes:

Wouldn't be as devastating as Ronaldo was in my opinion.

Billy86

Lennonist wrote: »

Don't you think that Barca's form dropped off, simply because they've won everything there is to win on multiple occasions and motivation dropped a bit. Same with the Spanish national team, also fatigue has set in due to all the football they've been playing due to being involved in the latter stages of various club and international tournaments. Barca should give Messi some time off and get him to recharge the batteries now. They've got Suarez as well now, and that's probably why they bought him, they've been relying too much on Messi.

Fully possible of course. But it is still interesting how these guys suddenly got so much more athletic and durable so quickly, almost like they had the limitless energy of a Tour de France cyclist. And then they fell off so suddenly from a physical standpoint right around the time several Spanish doctors they had been linked with previously got implicated in the Armstrong scandal and links were severed. Then the courts announce that all the available evidence for other athletes (Fuentes and co were far from just cycling specialists) that was readily available not only be ignored, but destroyed immediately and without any identification tests done beforehand. It was... odd, let's say.

It's not like one or two players fell off, or there was a gradual slide either. They almost all lost their ceaseless stamina almost in unison, barring guys like Mascherano who had built their careers on those attributes in the first place.

Lennonist

CSF wrote: »

Wouldn't be as devastating as Ronaldo was in my opinion.

I don't think the thread is about which would be better on a November night in Burnley, it's about which of the two is better overall, that's still Messi.

Lennonist

Billy86 wrote: »

Fully possible of course. But it is still interesting how these guys suddenly got so much more athletic and durable so quickly, almost like they had the limitless energy of a Tour de France cyclist. And then they fell off so suddenly from a physical standpoint right around the time several Spanish doctors they had been linked with previously got implicated in the Armstrong scandal and links were severed. Then the courts announce that all the available evidence for other athletes (Fuentes and co were far from just cycling specialists) that was readily available not only be ignored, but destroyed immediately and without any identification tests done beforehand. It was... odd, let's say.

It's not like one or two players fell off, or there was a gradual slide either. They almost all lost their ceaseless stamina almost in unison, barring guys like Mascherano who had built their careers on those attributes in the first place.

I think it's more to do with general fatigue and their appetites being sated with multiple wins than your conspiracy theories.

I don't think you could hide a scandal of the magnitude you are suggesting, there would be whistleblowers.

Billy86

Lennonist wrote: »

I think it's more to do with general fatigue and their appetites being sated with multiple wins than your conspiracy theories.

I don't think you could hide a scandal of the magnitude you are suggesting, there would be whistleblowers.

Like I said, I am not saying it is definitely the case but just that I wouldn't be at all surprised if it came out. Lance Armstrong kept it under wraps for a decade, and football isn't exactly a squeaky clean industry itself with the likes of match fixing going at the very, very least all the way up to the English Championship (which again everyone fobbed off as impossible until your man for Wolves got himself caught out last year) ... it took years of investigatory work to get anything on that, and in theory it would be much easier to crack than a doping ring.

CSF

Lennonist wrote: »

I don't think the thread is about which would be better on a November night in Burnley, it's about which of the two is better overall, that's still Messi.

I didn't bring up a November night in Burnley, you did.

I think Ronaldo is more of an allrounder and could be more effective in more leagues. Messi is clearly an exceptional footballer but I'm not convinced he could leave the nest and be as good as Ronaldo has been everywhere he has played.

You can choose to twist that into a 'Messi can't do it on a cold Tuesday' argument or act like I'm saying he couldn't adjust to another league, I'm not saying either of these things. I'm comparing him directly to Ronaldo, not the millions of other footballers out there who Messi would still be better than.

Lennonist

CSF wrote: »

I didn't bring up a November night in Burnley, you did.

I think Ronaldo is more of an allrounder and could be more effective in more leagues. Messi is clearly an exceptional footballer but I'm not convinced he could leave the nest and be as good as Ronaldo has been everywhere he has played.

You can choose to twist that into a 'Messi can't do it on a cold Tuesday' argument or act like I'm saying he couldn't adjust to another league, I'm not saying either of these things. I'm comparing him directly to Ronaldo, not the millions of other footballers out there who Messi would still be better than.

Comparing both directly, it's still Messi overall

Lennonist

Billy86 wrote: »

Like I said, I am not saying it is definitely the case but just that I wouldn't be at all surprised if it came out. Lance Armstrong kept it under wraps for a decade, and football isn't exactly a squeaky clean industry itself with the likes of match fixing going at the very, very least all the way up to the English Championship (which again everyone fobbed off as impossible until your man for Wolves got himself caught out last year) ... it took years of investigatory work to get anything on that, and in theory it would be much easier to crack than a doping ring.

Yes but there's not even an investigation or talk of an investigation into anything along the lines of your conspiracy theories. If there's anything there it would come out out via whistleblowers, until and if that happens I will dismiss such talk as unfounded conspiracy gossip.

CSF

Lennonist wrote: »

Comparing both directly, it's still Messi overall

I completely disagree.

Lennonist

CSF wrote: »

I completely disagree.

Good for you.

bucketybuck

Lennonist wrote: »

I don't think you could hide a scandal of the magnitude you are suggesting, there would be whistleblowers.

You could have written that word for word in 2009 about Lance Armstrong.

Pudders

bucketybuck wrote: »

You could have written that word for word in 2009 about Lance Armstrong.

Not in 2009 - plenty were accusing Armstrong and be sued by him back then and earlier.

bucketybuck

Pudders wrote: »

Not in 2009 - plenty were accusing Armstrong and be sued by him back then and earlier.

Erm, yes, there were lots of accusations flying around, and lots of people responding to those accusations and rumors by saying...

I don't think you could hide a scandal of the magnitude you are suggesting

Billy86

Lennonist wrote: »

Yes but there's not even an investigation or talk of an investigation into anything along the lines of your conspiracy theories. If there's anything there it would come out out via whistleblowers, until and if that happens I will dismiss such talk as unfounded conspiracy gossip.

Well here's your whistle blower, then: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/competitions/la-liga/9847272/Spanish-football-shaken-by-drug-claims-made-by-former-Real-Sociedad-president.html

Spanish football was at the centre of doping allegations on Monday when footage emerged of a former president of Real Sociedad admitting the club paid about £280,000 a year to Eufemiano Fuentes, the doctor on trial for doping cyclists.

Iñaki Badiola, who was president of Real Sociedad in 2008, also admitted on Monday to sacking two doctors when an investigation discovered players at the club had been involved in doping for six years and payments had been made for “strange medicines”.

... and another...

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2013/jan/29/operation-puerto-doctor-footballers-fuentes

Fuentes did not name any of the athletes, football players, boxers or tennis players who used his services – which he said included advice on training and recovery from injuries. But the whistleblower Jesús Manzano, a former professional cyclist who has accused Fuentes and his partners of endangering his health, has said that he personally saw prominent football players going into the clinic.

They included two well-known players at Spanish clubs and a Spaniard who had played for the national team – who are the reigning World Cup and European champions.

Will Arsene Wenger do?
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/2388078/Arsenal-players-used-EPO-says-Wenger.html

"We have had some players come to us at Arsenal from other clubs abroad and their red blood cell count has been abnormally high," Wenger told the Independent. "That kind of thing makes you wonder.

"There are clubs who dope their players without the players knowing.

"The club might say that they were being injected with vitamins and the player would not necessarily know that it was something different."

And even Dr. Fuentes himself has come out and said he worked with various clubs in the Spanish top flight, but refused to mention which because:

"I can't tell, I have received death threats," he said.

"I was told that if I told certain things, my family and myself could have serious problems. I've been threatened three times and it's not going to happen a fourth time.

"There are sports against which you cannot go against, because they have access to very powerful legal means to defend themselves. And it could also cost the current chief of the sport his post."

Lennonist

Billy86 wrote: »

Well here's your whistle blower, then: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/competitions/la-liga/9847272/Spanish-football-shaken-by-drug-claims-made-by-former-Real-Sociedad-president.html



... and another...

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2013/jan/29/operation-puerto-doctor-footballers-fuentes


Will Arsene Wenger do?
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/2388078/Arsenal-players-used-EPO-says-Wenger.html



And even Dr. Fuentes himself has come out and said he worked with various clubs in the Spanish top flight, but refused to mention which because:

No link to Barcelona in any of that.

Giruilla

Lennonist wrote: »

No link to Barcelona in any of that.

Luis Garcia del Moral - banned by USADA for his 'work' as medical director with US Postal Team - worked with Barcelona and Valencia.
This is proven from his CV he had on his company's website.. deleted only after the scandal broke.

Dr Luis Garcia Del Moral - Medical adviser for various football teams, most notably Barcelona CF and Valencia CF

Billy86

Lennonist wrote: »

No link to Barcelona in any of that.

My point is that it is reputed to be a widespread issue around Spain if not the entire football world. You even have managers and presidents of clubs bringing it up.

With that in mind, and with the fact that Barcelona went from being a team of generally unathletic players to a team of freaks who could do more running than about any other on the planet in no time at all is... interesting. Especially as they came right back down to Earth again almost overnight, midseason, and as an almost entire unit right at the same time (not just 2 or 3 players), right as the heat really got on guys like Fuentes over the Armstrong case.

Another doping doctor who got given a lifetime ban over his role in the Armstrong case listed himself as having worked with them: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/teams/barcelona/9597078/Barcelona-deny-link-to-banned-doctor-Luis-Garcia-del-Moral-who-worked-with-Lance-Armstrong-and-US-Postal.html

So how do you think they, pretty much to a man, got so athletic so quick having not previously been remotely so, and lost it just as instantly, pretty much to a man, in the wake of the Armstrong case?

Why did the judge for the Operation Puerto case rule that ALL evidence in the case be destroyed, including all the computers used during the investigation, and over 200 blood bags without even testing them, when Fuentes himself had said that cyclists only made about 1/3rd of his client base?

And what would Spain have to lose by having those blood samples checked if they were found to be littered with footballers, Olympic athletes, and/or tennis players? Bearing in mind that the 2008/10/12 EC and WC trophies brought not only a national morale boost, but a financial one too, to a country almost as badly hit as we were by the GFC. And that is before even bringing up the Olympic bid they were only a few short months away from having decided on to host 2020.

---

But hey, if you want to believe that there isn't a potentially massive, institutional issue with doping in football despite all of this, then be my guest. That's what so many said about Armstrong for a decade, most of whom will turn around now and say "but it was so obvious with him, we all knew it but just couldn't prove it" which I am afraid was not the case. I am not saying they were definitely doping, but I am saying I would be less than shocked if it was revealed they were.

Their miraculous athletic improvement in the mid/late 2000s and that it all came falling down right as the heat came on Spain and doping (who then ordered the evidence be destroyed ASAP) people be a coincidence, but it would be an absolutely huge one at that.

Giruilla

@Billy86 - What annoys me when people talk about Barcelona/Spains tiki taka is all they talk about is the skill involved. They fail to mention how the undermining factor in their dominance was they were vastly superior to any other team in terms of strength and stamina. Tiki taka is basically defunct if you can't constantly make short sprints and create space faster than your opponents.
Not every team has the skill to play tiki taka in the first place.. but giving an already skillful team like Barcelona the juice to outrun opponents would make the close to unstoppable.

Turtwig

Have you got any facts showing the distance covered by Barca players was significantly higher than other teams.

Xavi got tendonitis a few years ago, can't remember when, he's been playing through a pain barrier ever since. He even considered retiring from the international stage. Del Bosque convinced him to stay on until after the World cup at the very least.

Messi was always a fitness puzzle. It was Bayern's Munich current physio that got the best out of him -not that that compares to your average player. Once he left the club messi began to struggle a lot more.

This season the players had a falling out with Tata. Accusations were flying left right and centre about abandoning philosophy and lack of fitness and desires.

It'll be interesting to see if with Luis Enrique they regain fitness and hunger. Squad is getting a major overhaul.

I've no doubt that drugs may be involved in the sport. But the "coincidences" made are tenuous at best. Atletico Madrid got some similar accusations this year. Again these were very tenuous.

Remember, referees are generally fitter than the players, if they can do it why should we assume that players who come closer to that threshold are doping.

Giruilla

Turtwig wrote: »

Remember, referees are generally fitter than the players, if they can do it why should we assume that players who come closer to that threshold are doping.

I wouldn't compare a referee jogging 10km in 90 mins to a footballer doing the same whilst simultaneously sprinting, tackling, jumping, passing and shooting.

Billy86

Giruilla wrote: »

I wouldn't compare a referee jogging 10km in 90 mins to a footballer doing the same whilst simultaneously sprinting, tackling, jumping, passing and shooting.

Not sure why but I remember a few years back on Sky Dwight Yorke was a guest pundit and had recently done the London Marathon. They asked him about how many matches it equated to in terms of energy expended, and his response was that a single average Premiership match was much more tiring than the full marathon (and he had the second fastest time ever by a footballer). A bit off topic, but just an example that football is extremely physically demanding, more so than a good few give credit for.

Regarding ref's, not only is it the issue of jogging vs. sprinting and dynamic movement, but also of touch and control. Anyone who has ever let themselves get out of shape then gone and played even a five a side astro game with in shape friends knows full well how even simple passes, dribbling or close control gets much, much more difficult when fatigue starts to set in. It's still possible to cover ground without too much difficulty, but doing anything useful with the ball if a whole different kettle of fish.

Turtwig

Referees rarely jog.

They often cover four to five km more than a outfield player does. Most of these "jogs" being sprints. There's been studies showing that they often work much harder than the players. Granted there are different demands but when efforts are quantified it's often referees who come out on top. Considering they're often at least ten years older than the players that is some feat.

Yet they generally get lambasted for real time decisions. That few of us could make sitting on an couch without the benefit of replay.

Billy86

Turtwig wrote: »

Referees rarely jog.

They often cover four to five km more than a outfield player does. Most of these "jogs" being sprints. There's been studies showing that they often work much harder than the players. Granted there are different demands but when efforts are quantified it's often referees who come out on top. Considering they're often at least ten years older than the players that is some feat.

Yet they generally get lambasted for real time decisions. That few of us could make sitting on an couch without the benefit of replay.

That is true but again t boils down to what the players are required to do on top of the running, it isn't so much the covering of distance that is noteworthy as it is the quality of touching, passing, etc of the ball on top of this (and turns of pace, angle etc whereas referees typically just do straight line running).

Of course there is an I terrestial argument there over if referees should be allowed use (safe) PEDs to maximise their performance, given that no one side would benefit, just the quality of the refereeing itself. A strong emphasis on the word safe, of course.

We might never know the real answer though, or we could be one foot in the grave by the time we do. Just look at the German teams of the 1970s, it has only recently come to light that there was a strong likelihood of doping going on there despite it occurring fourth years ago.

SlickRic

i hope this is in fact the truth.

Thomas Schaling ‏@ThomasSchaling
Apparently Guardiola said that Messi's teammates need to constantly play the ball to him in order to keep him active/awake.

MaroonAndGreen

Ballon D'Or awards are probably what is going to be the crucial criteria used to evaluate/compare these guys careers when they are retired. Currently in that regard its Messi 4-2 Ronaldo. And Messi is 6/4 to win his 5th this year and Ronaldo is 11/4.

Id suspect Messi will win it because of his superior showing at the World Cup. That would put him 5-2 ahead in the Ballon D'Or wins column and you would imagine that 5-2 is a pretty unassailable lead.

This coming season really is a big one in the whole Messi v Ronaldo debate. Messi has been playing absolutely exceptional in the last year or two, admittedly below his best but still amazing. Ronaldo is id imagine playing to his peak at the moment and its still very close between them, for the first time ever in their careers it seems as though Ronaldo will now be playing with the better team, lets see how that affects this rivalry.

Its all very interesting.

Richard Hillman

In terms of the World Player of the year prize, there may be a little bit of a backlash on Messi after winning the WC player of the tournament. It really didnt go down very well with a lot of people