Messi Or Ronaldo?

Billy86

bangkok wrote: »

di maria, he was voted best player for argentina last year

Very strong argument for Garay as well, they went something like 450 minutes with it conceding and he was a massive part of it.

TheCitizen

Donnielighto wrote: »

Sure that isnt going to change in the next 24? It might suit an agenda.

Nothing is going to happen in the 24 hours to make me change my answer to this thread's original question.

Agenda?, I'm giving my view on the thread question.

bangkok

TheCitizen wrote: »

Nothing is going to happen in the 24 hours to make me change my answer to this thread's original question.

Agenda?, I'm giving my view on the thread question.

the threads original question was based on that time I would imagine 2011.

if you opened a new thread now, and asked "who is currently the best player in the world" Ronaldo wins...easy

TheCitizen

bangkok wrote: »

do you support Liverpool by any chance?

:pac:No. I have no agenda mate, not in that regard anyway.

I wouldn't always agree with Ibrahimovich but on this comment I would tend to agree when he said; "Messi's a natural and Ronaldo's a product of training."

TheCitizen

bangkok wrote: »

the threads original question was based on that time I would imagine 2011.

if you opened a new thread now, and asked "who is currently the best player in the world" Ronaldo wins...easy

I doubt it.

It would depend on the way you phrase the question of course, but if you were to open a new thread right now and title it as this one has been simply titled "Messi or Ronaldo?" I would say that it would still be Messi, for me it would be anyway.

bangkok

TheCitizen wrote: »

I doubt it.

It would depend on the way you phrase the question of course, but if you were to open a new thread right now and title it as this one has been simply titled "Messi or Ronaldo?" I would say that it would still be Messi, for me it would be anyway.

WHO IS THE BEST PLAYER IN THE WORLD AT THIS MOMENT IN TIME?

inforfun

Robben.

TheCitizen

bangkok wrote: »

WHO IS THE BEST PLAYER IN THE WORLD AT THIS MOMENT IN TIME?

That's easy. Messi.:)

bangkok

TheCitizen wrote: »

That's easy. Messi.:)

and yet an hour ago you though neuer should have won it.... :rolleyes:

good luck

Billy86

They're as good as each other, have been for ages, slightly different types of players, and Ronaldo is in better form the last two years or so. Anyone arguing strongly against any of those points is simply wrong.

TheCitizen

bangkok wrote: »

and yet an hour ago you though neuer should have won it.... :rolleyes:

good luck

I think your preferred thread title is "Who deserved to win the ballon d'or this year?" not "WHO IS THE BEST PLAYER IN THE WORLD AT THIS MOMENT IN TIME?" as you stated earlier. That's a different question.

All the best.

elefant

bangkok wrote: »

di maria, he was voted best player for argentina last year

In that case, I totally disagree. Messi was far better than Di Maria in my eyes. Man of the match in every group game and the last 16.

Garay, as someone else mentioned, would have been the only player I would have thought you could have even argued for.

bucketybuck

elefant wrote: »

In that case, I totally disagree. Messi was far better than Di Maria in my eyes. Man of the match in every group game and the last 16.

And virtually anonymous from that point on.

If Messi had turned up after the group stages maybe Argentina would have looked like scoring a few times and won the thing.

The Golden Miller

bucketybuck wrote: »

And virtually anonymous from that point on.

Like Ronaldo in most games so

bucketybuck

The Golden Miller wrote: »

Like Ronaldo in most games so

I didn't realise Ronaldo was in the running for Argentina's best player at the world cup?

You do realise that was the discussion, right?

elefant

bucketybuck wrote: »

And virtually anonymous from that point on.

If Messi had turned up after the group stages maybe Argentina would have looked like scoring a few times and won the thing.

He also was man of the match and created the goal to beat the Swiss out of nothing in the second round when everyone else on the Argentinian team looked completely toothless, and then he was also excellent against Belgium in the quarters. He didn't score against Holland sure, but pretty much nobody did. I thought he was okay in the final, if not his usual best.

How was Di Maria in Argentina's games? Since he apparently was Argentina's next best player after Mascherano?

Liam O

elefant wrote: »

He also was man of the match and created the goal to beat the Swiss out of nothing in the second round when everyone else on the Argentinian team looked completely toothless, and then he was also excellent against Belgium in the quarters. He didn't score against Holland sure, but pretty much nobody did. I thought he was okay in the final, if not his usual best.

How was Di Maria in Argentina's games? Since he apparently was Argentina's next best player after Mascherano?

Was that the goal to beat the Swiss that Di Maria scored? Just in case you forgot that considering you strangely left it out of your post?

When Di Maria got injured Messi was toothless because there was nobody to get him the ball and open up space behind him. Argentina have plenty of top goalscorers but only one player who was able to drop deep and create, which is what I'm sure they wanted Messi to do but only Di Maria did. If Di Maria is fit then he could have swung the whole WC in Argentina's favour, that's how much of a loss I regard him to those last couple of games.

darced

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elefant

Liam O wrote: »

Was that the goal to beat the Swiss that Di Maria scored? Just in case you forgot that considering you strangely left it out of your post?

When Di Maria got injured Messi was toothless because there was nobody to get him the ball and open up space behind him. Argentina have plenty of top goalscorers but only one player who was able to drop deep and create, which is what I'm sure they wanted Messi to do but only Di Maria did. If Di Maria is fit then he could have swung the whole WC in Argentina's favour, that's how much of a loss I regard him to those last couple of games.

Sure, he scored against Switzerland, after Messi ran through the defence and put him one-on-one with the keeper. Is that the kind of creation you mean?
And is the entire case for Di Maria being better than Messi in the world cup that Messi didn't score in the last two games?

Not saying Di Maria wasn't good, and obviously he was a huge loss to them as you say, but I just cannot understand how anyone can think he was better than Messi at the world cup. There is nothing he actually did that backs this up; Messi was better than him in every single game!

shrewdness

darced wrote: »

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He really won't though.

darced

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bangkok

darced wrote: »

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what are you on about?

The Golden Miller

darced wrote: »

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Not only the world cup, but his anonymous paltry showing in the champions league final too. All the Madrid players busting a gut trying to get up and down the field and get on the ball and try and make something happen, whilst Ronaldo disappears in obscurity.

I wouldn't say it's anything to do with him being a big game player or not though. He tends to score bucket loads against crap teams, or when the Madrid juggernaut will steam roll teams regardless. You rarely see him trying to make anything happen, and he likes giving the ball off and running straight to the box every time to try and score. It's all about personal glory for him. This really gets exposed in finals where he rarely scores as the standard tends to be higher and its a more cagey affair. Here the world see that when he doesn't score, he's actually next to anonymous in games. He doesn't possess the attributes to majorly influence how a team plays.

It's all well and good countering this with "only goals" and using the roll eyes emoticon. But the thing is Messi will also get the goals, but he also has alot more to his game than just scoring goals for a fair comparison. It's disingenuous to Messi to compare them to be honest. It's no surprise that the majority of people here who big up Ronaldo tend to be United fans. Most neutrals can see what I'm saying.

bangkok

The Golden Miller wrote: »

Not only the world cup, but his anonymous paltry showing in the champions league final too. All the Madrid players busting a gut trying to get up and down the field and get on the ball and try and make something happen, whilst Ronaldo disappears in obscurity.

I wouldn't say it's anything to do with him being a big game player or not though. He tends to score bucket loads against crap teams, or when the Madrid juggernaut will steam roll teams regardless. You rarely see him trying to make anything happen, and he likes giving the ball off and running straight to the box every time to try and score. It's all about personal glory for him. This really gets exposed in finals where he rarely scores as the standard tends to be higher and its a more cagey affair. Here the world see that when he doesn't score, he's actually next to anonymous in games. He doesn't possess the attributes to majorly influence how a team plays.

It's all well and good countering this with "only goals" and using the roll eyes emoticon. But the thing is Messi will also get the goals, but he also has alot more to his game than just scoring goals for a fair comparison. It's disingenuous to Messi to compare them to be honest. It's no surprise that the majority of people here who big up Ronaldo tend to be United fans. Most neutrals can see what I'm saying.

you do know he shouldn't have played the champions league final or gone to the world cup at all?! I presume you know all about the injury he had when the doctors even advised him not to play?

what about when he destroyed Bayern munich the European champions at the time in their own back yard? 2 goals to knock Manchester united out of Europe?

scoring in 6 el clasicos straight and breaking the record whilst doing so.

qucikest real Madrid player to score 100, 150 and 200 goals..

you are talking the brown stuff

doesn't score in finals? scored in 2 Champions league finals, and FA cup final, a league cup final, copa del rey final, world club cup final... not sure there are many more finals he could have scored in apart from world cup

LuckyLloyd

The Golden Miller wrote: »

Not only the world cup, but his anonymous paltry showing in the champions league final too. All the Madrid players busting a gut trying to get up and down the field and get on the ball and try and make something happen, whilst Ronaldo disappears in obscurity.

I wouldn't say it's anything to do with him being a big game player or not though. He tends to score bucket loads against crap teams, or when the Madrid juggernaut will steam roll teams regardless. You rarely see him trying to make anything happen, and he likes giving the ball off and running straight to the box every time to try and score. It's all about personal glory for him. This really gets exposed in finals where he rarely scores as the standard tends to be higher and its a more cagey affair. Here the world see that when he doesn't score, he's actually next to anonymous in games. He doesn't possess the attributes to majorly influence how a team plays.

It's all well and good countering this with "only goals" and using the roll eyes emoticon. But the thing is Messi will also get the goals, but he also has alot more to his game than just scoring goals for a fair comparison. It's disingenuous to Messi to compare them to be honest. It's no surprise that the majority of people here who big up Ronaldo tend to be United fans. Most neutrals can see what I'm saying.

I'm a Liverpool fan and I think your posts are pure garbage sir.

Bridge93

darced wrote: »

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The guy single handidly beat Sweden to get Portugal to Brazil. Without him Portugal would have been in big trouble. He scored the only goal in the home leg and a hat trick in Sweden.
He was also injured during the World Cup something the Messi fanboys bring up about his performances dropping at the start of last season.

darced

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bucketybuck

darced wrote: »

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He can't even get a proper injury Bill!!!

darced

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Bridge93

darced wrote: »

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Yes injured, have a little google there and see for yourself. Do a bit of research on Tendinosis.
No he wasn't.

The Golden Miller

bangkok wrote: »

you do know he shouldn't have played the champions league final or gone to the world cup at all?! I presume you know all about the injury he had when the doctors even advised him not to play?

what about when he destroyed Bayern munich the European champions at the time in their own back yard? 2 goals to knock Manchester united out of Europe?

scoring in 6 el clasicos straight and breaking the record whilst doing so.

qucikest real Madrid player to score 100, 150 and 200 goals..

you are talking the brown stuff

doesn't score in finals? scored in 2 Champions league finals, and FA cup final, a league cup final, copa del rey final, world club cup final... not sure there are many more finals he could have scored in apart from world cup

Glancing over the post his "greatness" is once again determined on nothing other than his goals. It's like saying Gerd Muller is better than Maradonna because he scored more goals, or Darren Bent and Heskey were more effective Premiership players than Berkamp. Total rubbish. Like when your classing him scoring goals in finals to say he played well, ala last years final, it's being completely disingenuous, when he did nothing for the entire game, and it was already won by the time he was handed a peno. You actually go and watch all those finals again, and he was next to near anonymity, especially last years final and when Barca beat United in 09.

Again these goals are all well and good, if there wasn't someone around who was just a prolific. But Messi has far more dept to his game for there to be a genuine comparison. He has the goals, and alot more. Ronaldo doesn't. It's the reason Ronaldo fans can only point to a world class Ronaldo performances by saying how many goals he scored in a particular game. Never how he dictated or controlled a game, bended it to his will, sliced opponents open with raw vision and passing and talent. He doesn't have the ability. All the true greats possessed these attributes. Crujff, Maradona, Platini, Zindane etc. They could control games, bring their team to far greater heights and win games single handedly without even scoring. It's for this reason Ronaldo will never be anywhere close to that bracket of greatness. His "greatness" is stats and nothing more

bangkok

messi has never scored a goal from play in an English club ground....EVER stick that in your pipes and smoke it

The Golden Miller

bangkok wrote: »

messi has never scored a goal from play in an English club ground....EVER stick that in your pipes and smoke it

He never scored in a club ground in outer mongolia or lesotho either

Turtwig

bangkok wrote: »

messi has never scored a goal from play in an English club ground....EVER stick that in your pipes and smoke it

Ummm. Wembley.

bangkok

The Golden Miller wrote: »

Glancing over the post his "greatness" is once again determined on nothing other than his goals. It's like saying Gerd Muller is better than Maradonna because he scored more goals, or Darren Bent and Heskey were more effective Premiership players than Berkamp. Total rubbish. Like when your classing him scoring goals in finals to say he played well, ala last years final, it's being completely disingenuous, when he did nothing for the entire game, and it was already won by the time he was handed a peno. You actually go and watch all those finals again, and he was next to near anonymity, especially last years final and when Barca beat United in 09.

Again these goals are all well and good, if there wasn't someone around who was just a prolific. But Messi has far more dept to his game for there to be a genuine comparison. He has the goals, and alot more. Ronaldo doesn't. It's the reason Ronaldo fans can only point to a world class Ronaldo performances by saying how many goals he scored in a particular game. Never how he dictated or controlled a game, bended it to his will, sliced opponents open with raw vision and passing and talent. He doesn't have the ability. All the true greats possessed these attributes. Crujff, Maradona, Platini, Zindane etc. They could control games, bring their team to far greater heights and win games single handedly without even scoring. It's for this reason Ronaldo will never be anywhere close to that bracket of greatness. His "greatness" is stats and nothing more

honest question, do you understand football?! since when has a winger/striker EVER controlled a game, that is usually the centre midfield player that does that, like a xavi or a scholes. even messi never dictated or controlled a game.

and you keep going on about goals, Ronaldo had 22 assists last season and this season is top of the assists charts again

bangkok

Turtwig wrote: »

Ummm. Wembley.

what club team plays at Wembley?????

Mushy

bangkok wrote: »

messi has never scored a goal from play in an English club ground....EVER stick that in your pipes and smoke it

Yes he has. Ironically it was a penalty.

Golden Miller, as a quote above, Messi has natural ability, Ronaldo had to train for it. He is still a great player. He doesn't dictate games you say. He also just passes the ball and runs into the box to score goals. That seems like dictating play to me, cos when he gets it in the box, he will most likely score. He can dictate without the ball at his feet.

EDIT: missed the from play part re: Messi

bangkok

The Golden Miller wrote: »

He never scored in a club ground in outer mongolia or lesotho either

he has played in England around 10 times now.... ZERO goals from play

Bridge93

Ah well at the end of the day one man is going home with the trophy while the other is folding away is maroon suit, ready for next year, with the tears and bitterness of his fanboys to console him.

It's really quite sad some can't admit Ronaldo has outperformed him the last two years even if in their opinion Messi is the better player. It's sad and the childish attempts to downplay his achievements and talk utter nonsense about his influence is gas. So much unquantifiable bull**** that supposedly Messi does and Ronaldo can't which are all untrue. They both do things the other cant but you'd swear it was Van Persue being compared to Messi.
That those people can't acknowledge what a great he is tells a lot about them.

bangkok

The Golden Miller wrote: »

Glancing over the post his "greatness" is once again determined on nothing other than his goals. It's like saying Gerd Muller is better than Maradonna because he scored more goals, or Darren Bent and Heskey were more effective Premiership players than Berkamp. Total rubbish. Like when your classing him scoring goals in finals to say he played well, ala last years final, it's being completely disingenuous, when he did nothing for the entire game, and it was already won by the time he was handed a peno. You actually go and watch all those finals again, and he was next to near anonymity, especially last years final and when Barca beat United in 09.

Again these goals are all well and good, if there wasn't someone around who was just a prolific. But Messi has far more dept to his game for there to be a genuine comparison. He has the goals, and alot more. Ronaldo doesn't. It's the reason Ronaldo fans can only point to a world class Ronaldo performances by saying how many goals he scored in a particular game. Never how he dictated or controlled a game, bended it to his will, sliced opponents open with raw vision and passing and talent. He doesn't have the ability. All the true greats possessed these attributes. Crujff, Maradona, Platini, Zindane etc. They could control games, bring their team to far greater heights and win games single handedly without even scoring. It's for this reason Ronaldo will never be anywhere close to that bracket of greatness. His "greatness" is stats and nothing more

id say you never have seen 5 full games that cruyff or platini have ever played

Bridge93

Turtwig wrote: »

Ummm. Wembley.

What club plays at Wembley? Might buy a season ticket, it's a great stadium would love to go there every week. Ummmm....

The Golden Miller

bangkok wrote: »

he has played in England around 10 times now.... ZERO goals from play

So? He played extremely well in alot of them, like in 08 v united, where Ronaldo was once again anonymous and Barca were in disarray that season, yet Messi, a kid just back from injury, dictated the whole game to United and were extremely unlucky to lose. It's performances like that, that Ronaldo ain't capable off. Or against Chelsea the previous season were he caused havoc and Del Horno (think it was him) got a red fouling him

bangkok

The Golden Miller wrote: »

So? He played extremely well in alot of them, like in 08 v united, where Ronaldo was once again anonymous and Barca were in disarray that season, yet Messi, a kid just back from injury, dictated the whole game to United and were extremely unlucky to lose. It's performances like that, that Ronaldo ain't capable off. Or against Chelsea the previous season were he caused havoc and Del Horno (think it was him) got a red fouling him

ahhhh he played well, bless the young chap

The Golden Miller

Mushy wrote: »

Yes he has. Ironically it was a penalty.

Golden Miller, as a quote above, Messi has natural ability, Ronaldo had to train for it. He is still a great player. He doesn't dictate games you say. He also just passes the ball and runs into the box to score goals. That seems like dictating play to me, cos when he gets it in the box, he will most likely score. He can dictate without the ball at his feet.

EDIT: missed the from play part re: Messi

Doesn't work that well when things aren't going for you and you need a player to stand up and be counted, grab the game by the scruff of the neck and dictate the game

Skylinehead

bangkok wrote: »

he has played in England around 10 times now.... ZERO goals from play

And he's also completely taken Manchester United apart in two Champions League finals. What's your point?

bangkok

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-1y1Krso2Bs

imagine the meltdown if Ronaldo did this?!!

Bridge93

If we are going to pick out one off games to criticise how come Messi was anonymous against Bayernn in Germany, a team Ronaldo supposedly had minimal influence against despite dominating and scoring?
What about the semi final games against Chelsea? He even missed a penalty that would have finished it but he missed and an average chelsea came storming back with 10 men. How come Messi and his amazing influence couldn't save them then against 10 men?

The Golden Miller

bangkok wrote: »

ahhhh he played well, bless the young chap

Ye I know, if you don't get goals it's irrevevant. You better tell Berkamp that Darren Bent is better than him

Are you gonna try and tell me the player who went on to win world player of the year that year, was anywhere close to Messi's level during that tie, in a game where neither scored. One dictated the game, the other was anonymous. Says alot about their ability and influence when neither scores

Mushy

The Golden Miller wrote: »

Doesn't work that well when things aren't going for you and you need a player to stand up and be counted, grab the game by the scruff of the neck and dictate the game

And as mentioned, for his position, when do you see that happen?

For what its worth, I prefer seeing Messi on the ball and as a player, but belittling Ronaldo is blatantly childish. He's deserved all the accolades he has received.

MaroonAndGreen

bullvine wrote:

How Messi won in 2010 is beyond ridiculous, he shouldnt have even been shortlisted for it, Xavi, Iniesta and Sniejder were all much better than him that year. He deserved it in 09 and 11 but the 2012 could easily have been won by Ronaldo. I think its testament to Ronaldo that he went 4 years without winning it and has now won it twice in a row. That's an achievement in itself!

2012? The year where Messi scored 91 goals? And you say it could have gone to Ronaldo? Stop please.

Also this talk of Messi not turning up at the World Cup is ridiculous. 4 fabulous goals to get Argentina through the group, an assist in the last 16 for Di Maria's winner in extra time, 3-4 man of the match awards - all done as captain, he led his country to the final and nearly won it.

He was brilliant.