Messi Or Ronaldo?

CSF

Iused2likebusts wrote: »

You make it out like all Messi ' goals are tap ins. His general play is what imo makes him a better player than ronaldo. Messi has been great this year and a lot of the time xavi and iniesta haven't been on the pitch. I can understand if people prefer ronaldo buy this argument makes no sense ronaldo also plays with unbelievable players. As for the one team thing Messi has been at Barca 10 odd years he has played under numerous managers and the dynamic of the team changes every year with different players coming in and going out. Scholes was a 1 team man playing in the dominant team in the league does it tarnish his reputation not for me it doesn't. John Barnes was brilliant for Liverpool never reproduced that form for England again it doesn't diminish his reputation for me.

The dynamic of the team at Barcelona doesn't actually change that much and the failure of Martino was very much an indicator as to what happens if someone tries. As exceptionally talented as Messi is, he has played his whole career within his comfort zone IMO.

Scholes and Barnes do not come into the discussion of greatest player in the world at any given time, never mind greatest player ever, there were always better players than them, so I don't think they belong in this discussion.

Iused2likebusts

CSF wrote: »

The dynamic of the team at Barcelona doesn't actually change that much and the failure of Martino was very much an indicator as to what happens if someone tries. As exceptionally talented as Messi is, he has played his whole career within his comfort zone IMO.

Scholes and Barnes do not come into the discussion of greatest player in the world at any given time, never mind greatest player ever, there were always better players than them, so I don't think they belong in this discussion.

Barca are playing a different style this year and the influence of xavi and iniesta is a lot less than previous years. Another way of looking at it is what would barca be like without Messi. It's fair to say they would've won a lot less trophies. It comes down to who is the better player from what we have witnessed there is no point considering other variables as we can't prove them one way or the other.

byrneg28

Messi is a natural talent

Ronaldo is a pure athlete

Liam O

rarnes1 wrote: »

Are there Ronaldo haters here ? Or Messi haters?

I would think most people that post here can appreciate both players. They might have a preference for one but I doubt they actually hate the other.

That's pre puberty stuff surely!

Of course there are Ronaldo haters. Have you not read this thread? You seem to be taking hating a bit literally too.

CSF

Iused2likebusts wrote: »

Barca are playing a different style this year and the influence of xavi and iniesta is a lot less than previous years. Another way of looking at it is what would barca be like without Messi. It's fair to say they would've won a lot less trophies. It comes down to who is the better player from what we have witnessed there is no point considering other variables as we can't prove them one way or the other.

Barcelona's style hasn't changed fundamentally. Tweaks rather than wholesale changes. Martino was the only one who tried to change too much and it was rejected outright and led to a trophyless season.

These sort of variables are all relevant, even if they are open to interpretation. Messi and Ronaldo are both exceptionally talented, the closest thing to perfect footballers the world has seen to date IMO. Obviously the margins are therefore very fine, and the 'battle' is won on the little things.

Ronaldo has taken more risks in his career, and the quality of his play has never suffered. Instead it has increased. Messi has yet to come out of his comfort zone. I'm not saying this is the decisive factor or anything, as if it suddenly wins the argument outright, but it is a significant factor.

CSF

byrneg28 wrote: »

Messi is a natural talent

Ronaldo is a pure athlete

Rubbish. Absolute tosh.

TheCitizen

CSF wrote: »

Rubbish. Absolute tosh.

http://www.goal.com/en-us/news/174/uefa-champions-league/2012/04/02/3009799/ibrahimovic-messi-is-all-talent-while-ronaldo-is-a-product

Ibrahimovic appears to concur with the view that Messi is more naturally talented than Ronaldo.

Although it may appear a bit obvious - and it's not a criticism of Ronaldo at all that he clearly has worked so hard on his game - but I think there's something in that view.

bucketybuck

TheCitizen wrote: »

http://www.goal.com/en-us/news/174/uefa-champions-league/2012/04/02/3009799/ibrahimovic-messi-is-all-talent-while-ronaldo-is-a-product

Ibrahimovic appears to concur with the view

And what exactly is that supposed to prove?

TheCitizen

bucketybuck wrote: »

And what exactly is that supposed to prove?

That in Ibrahimovic's opinion, and the opinion of many others I would say, that Messi is the more naturally talented of the two.

CSF

TheCitizen wrote: »

http://www.goal.com/en-us/news/174/uefa-champions-league/2012/04/02/3009799/ibrahimovic-messi-is-all-talent-while-ronaldo-is-a-product

Ibrahimovic appears to concur with the view that Messi is more naturally talented than Ronaldo.

Although it may appear a bit obvious - and it's not a criticism of Ronaldo at all that he clearly has worked so hard on his game - but I think there's something in that view.

Messi is more naturally gifted than Ronaldo. I don't dispute that, but to refer to Ronaldo as merely an athlete is disrespectful idiocy.

TheCitizen

CSF wrote: »

Messi is more naturally gifted than Ronaldo. I don't dispute that, but to refer to Ronaldo as merely an athlete is disrespectful idiocy.

Who referred to him as merely an athlete? That other poster there called him a pure athlete. I'm sure Ronaldo will be proud of ya that you are so offended on his behalf.

Turtyturd

Ah the ol' Messi played with the best midfield ever while 'Ronnie' played with amateurs argument.

CSF

TheCitizen wrote: »

Who referred to him as merely an athlete? That other poster there called him a pure athlete. I'm sure Ronaldo will be proud of ya that you are so offended on his behalf.

The post pretty much read Messi is a talented footballer, Ronaldo is an athlete. That was the narrative. Your wish to dispute that says more about your posting style than anything else.

bucketybuck

Turtyturd wrote: »

Ah the ol' Messi played with the best midfield ever while 'Ronnie' played with amateurs argument.

Strawman, nobody said that.

Iused2likebusts

CSF wrote: »

Barcelona's style hasn't changed fundamentally. Tweaks rather than wholesale changes. Martino was the only one who tried to change too much and it was rejected outright and led to a trophyless season.

These sort of variables are all relevant, even if they are open to interpretation. Messi and Ronaldo are both exceptionally talented, the closest thing to perfect footballers the world has seen to date IMO. Obviously the margins are therefore very fine, and the 'battle' is won on the little things.

Ronaldo has taken more risks in his career, and the quality of his play has never suffered. Instead it has increased. Messi has yet to come out of his comfort zone. I'm not saying this is the decisive factor or anything, as if it suddenly wins the argument outright, but it is a significant factor.

By risk I'm assuming you mean moving from utd to real ? Messi is at Barca I don't see where he can move to that wouldn't be a step down. Ronaldo was at Utd who at the time were one of the best teams in Europe and probably better than real at the time. However he moved to one of the big two in world football real or barca. I don't see that as a risk.

TheCitizen

CSF wrote: »

The post pretty much read Messi is a talented footballer, Ronaldo is an athlete. That was the narrative. Your wish to dispute that says more about your posting style than anything else.

There's different ways of reading into things that people say. The other poster can clarify that, it was his post.

My view is similar to what Ibrahimovic said, the part where he says Messi is the more naturally talented of the two.

CSF

Iused2likebusts wrote: »

By risk I'm assuming you mean moving from utd to real ? Messi is at Barca I don't see where he can move to that wouldn't be a step down. Ronaldo was at Utd who at the time were one of the best teams in Europe and probably better than real at the time. However he moved to one of the big two in world football real or barca. I don't see that as a risk.

I wouldn't look at it in those terms myself. The who isn't especially relevant, although if it were you could point out the amount of exceptionally talented players who've gone to Real, been chewed up and spat out, and say that based on the who it was a risk anyway.

Moreso, the risk of moving to a different style of football, a completely different league, a completely different kind of club with a completely different culture. We look at it with Ronaldo as if it was a given that he was going to go there and reach a whole new level because we have the benefit of hindsight. So many players haven't and I think we'd all be fascinated to see if Messi could go somewhere like Chelsea and be incredibly dominant, and maintain the 'battle' with Ronaldo.

I know he'd do well, he is an exceptionally talented footballer, the question is how well, and how well he would handle the external factors of another club.

Billy86

Iused2likebusts wrote: »

Another way of looking at it is what would barca be like without Messi. It's fair to say they would've won a lot less trophies.

There is no doubting that Messi made Barca better by his presence - he is going to go down as one of the greatest players ever. But I wouldn't be overly certain of this statement (all depending on what you consider "a lot") given that the core of that Barca team also made up the corps of the Spanish squad that went on to be one of the very most dominant international sides of all time.

bucketybuck

Billy86 wrote: »

There is no doubting that Messi made Barca better by his presence - he is going to go down as one of the greatest players ever. But I wouldn't be overly certain of this statement (all depending on what you consider "a lot") given that the core of that Barca team also made up the corps of the Spanish squad that went on to be one of the very most dominant international sides of all time.

Its always surprising to me, that great Barcelona side with Messi, Iniesta, Busquets, Xavi and a supporting cast of the likes of Henry and Eto only actually won 2 European cups. (The 2006 team was basically a different team). And they were blessed to even have two considering how lucky they were to progress past Chelsea in that farcical 2009 semi-final.

So if the question is whether Barca would have won as much as they did without Messi, then I think they would have. They still would have dominated the Spanish league, and they didn't win as much in Europe as they probably should have anyway. Xavi, Busquets and Iniesta along with Henry, Villa, Sanchez, Ibra, etc etc is still a pretty dangerous lineup even if Messi is better than any of them.

Skylinehead

CSF wrote: »

I don't think any of those players come into the best player of all time conversation. They were all great players, but we generally acknowledge there were better players than those. With Ronaldo or Messi, they're not fighting to be one of the great players, that much is a given.

Take Maldini or Baresi from that list though, both have legitimate claims at being the best defender of all time. Nobody ever brings up the different league arguments there.

darced

This post has been deleted.

CSF

Skylinehead wrote: »

Take Maldini or Baresi from that list though, both have legitimate claims at being the best defender of all time. Nobody ever brings up the different league arguments there.

I've never had that discussion, or read such a discussion, but it would have to come up IMO in any such discussion.

byrneg28

CSF wrote: »

The post pretty much read Messi is a talented footballer, Ronaldo is an athlete. That was the narrative. Your wish to dispute that says more about your posting style than anything else.

Yeah it's probably my lazy posting style.

Messi is far more naturally talented than Ronaldo, but Ronaldo is more of an athlete than Messi. So it's a balanced argument.. *infact I think Ronaldo is one of the most all-rounded athletes in the world, he's an inspiration.

In saying that I still think Ronaldo is a better all-round footballer.

Skylinehead

CSF wrote: »

I've never had that discussion, or read such a discussion, but it would have to come up IMO in any such discussion.

I don't personally think it's that important. For a start, Messi has taken apart the best team in England in Champions League finals....twice.

CSF

Skylinehead wrote: »

I don't personally think it's that important. For a start, Messi has taken apart the best team in England in Champions League finals....twice.

It's not really the opposition so much as the club you're playing at. Real the key example. So many extremely talented players have gone there and experienced relative failure in the eyes of the Real fans at least, and end up being basically chewed up and spat out. Bale looks like being the next one.

That is an extreme example of course, but it exists elsewhere nonetheless. If Messi signed for Chelsea, City or United in the summer, they wouldn't be able to simply to recreate the Barcelona style of play, that suits Messi so well. He would have to adapt not only to English football which is very different in style to Spanish or Champions League football. He'd also have to adapt to his new team, a new group of people, the English weather/lifestyle, the media, all sorts of things.

Don't take my post as saying that Messi couldn't handle English football, that he couldn't handle Real Madrid, German football, anything. It's not that. He is an exceptionally talented footballer.

But it's not a given either, and I think his Argentinian form relative to his Barcelona form makes those questions all the more appropriate. We are yet to see Messi come out of his comfort zone and prove that he is adaptable.

Iused2likebusts

CSF wrote: »

It's not really the opposition so much as the club you're playing at. Real the key example. So many extremely talented players have gone there and experienced relative failure in the eyes of the Real fans at least, and end up being basically chewed up and spat out. Bale looks like being the next one.

That is an extreme example of course, but it exists elsewhere nonetheless. If Messi signed for Chelsea, City or United in the summer, they wouldn't be able to simply to recreate the Barcelona style of play, that suits Messi so well. He would have to adapt not only to English football which is very different in style to Spanish or Champions League football. He'd also have to adapt to his new team, a new group of people, the English weather/lifestyle, the media, all sorts of things.

Don't take my post as saying that Messi couldn't handle English football, that he couldn't handle Real Madrid, German football, anything. It's not that. He is an exceptionally talented footballer.

But it's not a given either, and I think his Argentinian form relative to his Barcelona form makes those questions all the more appropriate. We are yet to see Messi come out of his comfort zone and prove that he is adaptable.

Ronaldo hasn't pulled up trees with Portugal and Utd when ronaldo was at his best there were set up to get the best from him with likes of rooney sacrificing himself for ronaldo. Ronaldo still had to have the ability to do what he did as did messi.I think this is all over complicating things though. It's a simple who do you think is the best player in the 500 odd games they have played. I really don't see the point in bringing imaginary circumstances into the argument. For at least 70% of the time I think Messi has been better. Fair enough if other people prefer ronaldo but if basing it on Messi had xavi and iniesta and never moved clubs I think it's a feeble argument.

CSF

Iused2likebusts wrote: »

Ronaldo hasn't pulled up trees with Portugal and Utd when ronaldo was at his best there were set up to get the best from him with likes of rooney sacrificing himself for ronaldo. Ronaldo still had to have the ability to do what he did as did messi.I think this is all over complicating things though. It's a simple who do you think is the best player in the 500 odd games they have played. I really don't see the point in bringing imaginary circumstances into the argument. For at least 70% of the time I think Messi has been better. Fair enough if other people prefer ronaldo but if basing it on Messi had xavi and iniesta and never moved clubs I think it's a feeble argument.

I think Ronaldo in any case, ive made that case from the beginning of the thread.

Id still disagree on your notion of adaptability not being a crucial attribute though.

Iused2likebusts

CSF wrote: »

I think Ronaldo in any case, ive made that case from the beginning of the thread.

Id still disagree on your notion of adaptability not being a crucial attribute though.

Fair enough I've more important things to be worrying about anyway like who to capt this weekend ☺

CSF

Iused2likebusts wrote: »

Fair enough I've more important things to be worrying about anyway like who to capt this weekend ☺

I have no idea what you are referring to

Billy86

CSF wrote: »

I've never had that discussion, or read such a discussion, but it would have to come up IMO in any such discussion.

And to be fair Maldini played I'm a bunch of different teams and backline with a bunch of different players, sometimes awesome and sometimes just very good (though never mediocre or below). Messi by comparison has had the same unit around him for most of his whole career, and it's been arguably the best unit of all time. Since they have began to age he has not been quite as good as he previously was.

For the record though, both are all timers. To also would probably not have done as well as Messi in that, bar/Barca team, and Messi would likely heave not have done as well in those Man Utd/Madrid teams.

Turtwig

Messi is very far ahead of Ronaldo this year imo. Still a long way to go.

Regarding free kicks they're both pretty poor. They just get so many attempts (which they opt to shoot) that because of their names they gain attention when scored. Let's be honest, most free kicks scored in top tier football are quality goals.

Xavi was a much better free kick taller than Messi. Messi had a purple patch in 2012 with free kicks. All in all his return from dead ball isn't great. He was never great at penalties either.
Mario Balotelli is yards ahead of Ronaldo and Messi at penalties.

Rayne Wooney

Turtwig wrote: »

Messi is very far ahead of Ronaldo this year imo. Still a long way to go.

Regarding free kicks they're both pretty poor. They just get so many attempts (which they opt to shoot) that because of their names they gain attention when scored. Let's be honest, most free kicks scored in top tier football are quality goals.

Xavi was a much better free kick taller than Messi. Messi had a purple patch in 2012 with free kicks. All in all his return from dead ball isn't great. He was never great at penalties either.
Mario Balotelli is yards ahead of Ronaldo and Messi at penalties.

Isn't Balotelli's record like 93% to Ronaldo's 90%?

Hardly yards ahead is he, although Ronaldo's one may be since he joined Madrid but I don't remember him missing many for United

Skylinehead

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

Isn't Balotelli's record like 93% to Ronaldo's 90%?

Hardly yards ahead is he, although Ronaldo's one may be since he joined Madrid but I don't remember him missing many for United

84%, 11/13

GBXI

CSF wrote: »

It's not really the opposition so much as the club you're playing at. Real the key example. So many extremely talented players have gone there and experienced relative failure in the eyes of the Real fans at least, and end up being basically chewed up and spat out. Bale looks like being the next one.

That is an extreme example of course, but it exists elsewhere nonetheless. If Messi signed for Chelsea, City or United in the summer, they wouldn't be able to simply to recreate the Barcelona style of play, that suits Messi so well. He would have to adapt not only to English football which is very different in style to Spanish or Champions League football. He'd also have to adapt to his new team, a new group of people, the English weather/lifestyle, the media, all sorts of things.

Don't take my post as saying that Messi couldn't handle English football, that he couldn't handle Real Madrid, German football, anything. It's not that. He is an exceptionally talented footballer.

But it's not a given either, and I think his Argentinian form relative to his Barcelona form makes those questions all the more appropriate. We are yet to see Messi come out of his comfort zone and prove that he is adaptable.

This adaptability argument seems to be the main argument of those saying Ronaldo is better than Messi. Like someone else said, it's a very weak argument. Ronaldo had to start his career at Sporting, then join a Man Utd squad at their lowest in years, before at the age of 21/22 starting to show real world class form, and only when Utd had gotten around to assembling top class team around him. Messi on the other had was ear-marked for greatness from a way younger age, hence one of the biggest clubs in the world grabbing him as soon as they could.

Ronaldo didn't "come out of his comfort zone to prove he's adaptable" he did so out of necessity, to advance his career. Messi clearly a better all round footballer and easily as good a goalscorer as Ronaldo. No debate for me.

byrneg28

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

Isn't Balotelli's record like 93% to Ronaldo's 90%?

Hardly yards ahead is he, although Ronaldo's one may be since he joined Madrid but I don't remember him missing many for United

Champions League Final

eagle eye

CSF wrote: »

But it's not a given either, and I think his Argentinian form relative to his Barcelona form makes those questions all the more appropriate. We are yet to see Messi come out of his comfort zone and prove that he is adaptable.

International football is a whole other thing. Argentina have had a very weak midfield during Messi's career. As a result he has been coming deeper to get hold of the ball. We don't see him as we should see him because of that.

Also Ronaldo hasn't had a lights out international career by any means either.

CSF

eagle eye wrote: »

International football is a whole other thing. Argentina have had a very weak midfield during Messi's career. As a result he has been coming deeper to get hold of the ball. We don't see him as we should see him because of that.

Also Ronaldo hasn't had a lights out international career by any means either.

Agreed on both counts. Ronaldo and Messi's international careers are of similar enough stature.

The Moldy Gowl

Is it just me or do I get a sense that people are saying that Ronaldo was completely unknown as a teenager?

He was a big deal back then and the same as messi.

CSF

Gowlasauras Rex wrote: »

Is it just me or do I get a sense that people are saying that Ronaldo was completely unknown as a teenager?

He was a big deal back then and the same as messi.

He wasn't. Ronaldo was an 18/19 year old with potential. Messi was a close to world class 18/19 year old. Messi definitely reached elite level younger than Ronaldo.

GBXI

Gowlasauras Rex wrote: »

Is it just me or do I get a sense that people are saying that Ronaldo was completely unknown as a teenager?

He was a big deal back then and the same as messi.

That's not what I was saying, but Messi was definitely held in higher regard.

Just think back to Ronaldo's first couple of seasons at Utd, he was a borderline idiot on the ball! Now he's improved beyond recognition at this stage of his career but he's still, and never will be as good as Messi who is simply a more all round superior footballer.

Liam O

GBXI wrote: »

That's not what I was saying, but Messi was definitely held in higher regard.

Just think back to Ronaldo's first couple of seasons at Utd, he was a borderline idiot on the ball! Now he's improved beyond recognition at this stage of his career but he's still, and never will be as good as Messi who is simply a more all round superior footballer.

Yep, Ronaldo was a one trick pony and Messi never made a bad decision in his early years. What a load of bollocks tbh.

Skylinehead

Liam O wrote: »

Yep, Ronaldo was a one trick pony and Messi never made a bad decision in his early years. What a load of bollocks tbh.

Good thing that nobody has actually said that then, way to take things out of proportion.

Liam O

Skylinehead wrote: »

Good thing that nobody has actually said that then, way to take things out of proportion.

Borderline idiot is worse than one trick pony tbh, I think as an Arsenal fan you should be able to appreciate that he was well on his way to greatness when he tore yis apart a few times at that age.

GBXI

Liam O wrote: »

Yep, Ronaldo was a one trick pony and Messi never made a bad decision in his early years. What a load of bollocks tbh.

Oh ya, because that's exactly what I said!

upandcumming

Andersonisgod wrote: »

It's a penalty, give me a penalty and I'd fancy myself to notch a few goals even against a professional goalkeeper. Ask me to break down the entire defence of the English champions, like Messi did for Barcelona's second goal, and I could be there for years trying and not even come close. It hardly needs spin. Despite the penalty miss last night (which he crafted in the first place) he was on a different level to anyone else on the pitch.

Best play of the night was Silva's flick for Aguero's goal.

Talib Fiasco

upandcumming wrote: »

Best play of the night was Silva's flick for Aguero's goal.

City fan here and best play of the night was easily Messi nutmegging Silva...making a complete fool out of a player as gifted as Silva and making it look so easy was incredible.

TheCitizen

http://www.bbc.com/sport/0/football/32006713

Pele agrees.

Talib Fiasco

TheCitizen wrote: »

http://www.bbc.com/sport/0/football/32006713

Pele agrees.

Tbh Pele is an idiot. He said a few years back that Messi was the best (which he clearly was) but Neymar would surpass him and Ronaldo. It was only a few weeks back that I read an article where he said Ronaldo was now better than Messi but yet again Neymar will be better than both at their best soon...now he says it is Messi again. He's a legend and all that but he annoys me whenever he opens his mouth.

CSF

Talib Fiasco wrote: »

Tbh Pele is an idiot. He said a few years back that Messi was the best (which he clearly was) but Neymar would surpass him and Ronaldo. It was only a few weeks back that I read an article where he said Ronaldo was now better than Messi but yet again Neymar will be better than both at their best soon...now he says it is Messi again. He's a legend and all that but he annoys me whenever he opens his mouth.

Nothing Pele or Zidane say should be taken seriously, unbelievable footballers but rentaquotes.

TheCitizen

Pele was at the Liverpool Man United match there milking the adulation of the crowd. I'd say he'll be crestfallen with the comments re him here:pac: