Messi Or Ronaldo?

Billy86

TheCitizen wrote: »

Pele was at the Liverpool Man United match there milking the adulation of the crowd. I'd say he'll be crestfallen with the comments re him here:pac:

When the guy has Saviola, Roger Milla, Jay Jay Okocha, Davor Suker, Hidetoshi Nakata, Hong Myung-Bo, El Hadji Diouf, Emre Belozoglu, Rustu Recber and Michelle Akers in his top 125 living players list (as of a few years back) I think it should be quite easy to see why people don't take him very seriously.

TheCitizen

Billy86 wrote: »

When the guy has Saviola, Roger Milla, Jay Jay Okocha, Davor Suker, Hidetoshi Nakata, Hong Myung-Bo, El Hadji Diouf, Emre Belozoglu, Rustu Recber and Michelle Akers in his top 125 living players list (as of a few years back) I think it should be quite easy to see why people don't take him very seriously.

Perhaps they were his personal favourites. He's right about Messi/Ronaldo though.

Billy86

TheCitizen wrote: »

Perhaps they were his personal favourites. He's right about Messi/Ronaldo though.

Just like Messi is perhaps his personal favourite; he has already shown on a number of occasions that his opinion isn't one to be taken very seriously in this respect.

Too Tough To Die

Pele in a rare moment of honesty.

Talib Fiasco

Billy86 wrote: »

When the guy has Saviola, Roger Milla, Jay Jay Okocha, Davor Suker, Hidetoshi Nakata, Hong Myung-Bo, El Hadji Diouf, Emre Belozoglu, Rustu Recber and Michelle Akers in his top 125 living players list (as of a few years back) I think it should be quite easy to see why people don't take him very seriously.

At the time he made that list those players were top top players. And he did a mix of past and present players. I have no problem with that list for the vast majority.

Billy86

Talib Fiasco wrote: »

At the time he made that list those players were top top players. And he did a mix of past and present players. I have no problem with that list for the vast majority.

At the time...

- Emre was a good but injury prone player at Inter who had not played over 25 league games for them in his four years there.

- Diouf had completely flopped at Liverpool, was about to move to Bolton, and had not exactly done an awful lot before that, barring one World Cup.

- Jay Jay Okocha could be incredible at times and had some phenomenal highlights, but was also quite inconsistent and selfish at times. Nowhere near one of the best 125 players alive as of 2004.

- Hong Myung Bo was about to retire after two years in MLS (a few weaker league then than now), having played all of the rest of his career in Korea and Japan.

- Nakata had proven to be a case of flattering to deceive and not worth the money spent on him - he was beginning the end of his career, as a journeyman.

- Davor Suker was recently retired, having not put up more than 10 league goals for since 1996/97.

- Rustu Recber had just flopped entirely at Barca having moved on a free transfer, and while a great keeper on his day, was prone to some extremely silly errors. At best you could say he was one of the better goalkeepers in the world for a bit, but nowhere near the best, and that's before even looking at outfield players or players who had retired and were still alive.

- Roger Milla was long since retired and never once in his career scored more than 13 goals in a top flight, reputable league.

- Saviola was good but also overrated/unfulfilled potential; it is questionable if he is even in the top 8-10 attacking players from his country alone, in the last 10-15 years alone (Messi, Aguero, Batistuta, Higuain, Lavezzi, Crespo, Batistuta, Riquelme, Aimar, Di Maria).

So no, none of these were "top, top players" in the context of greatest living footballers. Not even close.

Too Tough To Die

It's a FIFA list and Pele is an ambassador for football, it was obviously going to be as inclusive as possible. Seems a bit silly to pick it apart.

CSF

Talib Fiasco wrote: »

At the time he made that list those players were top top players. And he did a mix of past and present players. I have no problem with that list for the vast majority.

Ah it's difficult to defend it, the mans opinion is worth very little. With him and Zidane it's generally best to look at what they did on the pitch, and ignore when they open their mouth.

Guy:Incognito

Billy86 wrote: »

At the time...

- Emre was a good but injury prone player at Inter who had not played over 25 league games for them in his four years there.

- Diouf had completely flopped at Liverpool, was about to move to Bolton, and had not exactly done an awful lot before that, barring one World Cup.

- Jay Jay Okocha could be incredible at times and had some phenomenal highlights, but was also quite inconsistent and selfish at times. Nowhere near one of the best 125 players alive as of 2004.

- Hong Myung Bo was about to retire after two years in MLS (a few weaker league then than now), having played all of the rest of his career in Korea and Japan.

- Nakata had proven to be a case of flattering to deceive and not worth the money spent on him - he was beginning the end of his career, as a journeyman.

- Davor Suker was recently retired, having not put up more than 10 league goals for since 1996/97.

- Rustu Recber had just flopped entirely at Barca having moved on a free transfer, and while a great keeper on his day, was prone to some extremely silly errors. At best you could say he was one of the better goalkeepers in the world for a bit, but nowhere near the best, and that's before even looking at outfield players or players who had retired and were still alive.

- Roger Milla was long since retired and never once in his career scored more than 13 goals in a top flight, reputable league.

- Saviola was good but also overrated/unfulfilled potential; it is questionable if he is even in the top 8-10 attacking players from his country alone, in the last 10-15 years alone (Messi, Aguero, Batistuta, Higuain, Lavezzi, Crespo, Batistuta, Riquelme, Aimar, Di Maria).

So no, none of these were "top, top players" in the context of greatest living footballers. Not even close.

Not to defend those players but it was a list of players that are still alive, not still playing or at their peak. The only current qualification needed was to still be breathing. They only had to be worth a punt from Pele at one time in their lives, which pretty much covers anyone thats played the game.

Billy86

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

Not to defend those players but it was a list of players that are still alive, not still playing or at their peak. The only current qualification needed was to still be breathing.

That's part of my point though - there's a hell of a lot more players alive than active obviously, and none of those guys really even come close to the top 125. Currently playing as of 11 years ago yeah some of them would have made the is, but in terms of total living? Not a hope.

Guy:Incognito

CSF wrote: »

Ah it's difficult to defend it, the mans opinion is worth very little. With him and Zidane it's generally best to look at what they did on the pitch, and ignore when they open their mouth.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vF4iWIE77Ts

CSF

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vF4iWIE77Ts

Not gonna lie to you, I loved that moment.

The Golden Miller

Billy86 wrote: »

At the time...

- Emre was a good but injury prone player at Inter who had not played over 25 league games for them in his four years there.

- Diouf had completely flopped at Liverpool, was about to move to Bolton, and had not exactly done an awful lot before that, barring one World Cup.

- Jay Jay Okocha could be incredible at times and had some phenomenal highlights, but was also quite inconsistent and selfish at times. Nowhere near one of the best 125 players alive as of 2004.

- Hong Myung Bo was about to retire after two years in MLS (a few weaker league then than now), having played all of the rest of his career in Korea and Japan.

- Nakata had proven to be a case of flattering to deceive and not worth the money spent on him - he was beginning the end of his career, as a journeyman.

- Davor Suker was recently retired, having not put up more than 10 league goals for since 1996/97.

- Rustu Recber had just flopped entirely at Barca having moved on a free transfer, and while a great keeper on his day, was prone to some extremely silly errors. At best you could say he was one of the better goalkeepers in the world for a bit, but nowhere near the best, and that's before even looking at outfield players or players who had retired and were still alive.

- Roger Milla was long since retired and never once in his career scored more than 13 goals in a top flight, reputable league.

- Saviola was good but also overrated/unfulfilled potential; it is questionable if he is even in the top 8-10 attacking players from his country alone, in the last 10-15 years alone (Messi, Aguero, Batistuta, Higuain, Lavezzi, Crespo, Batistuta, Riquelme, Aimar, Di Maria).

So no, none of these were "top, top players" in the context of greatest living footballers. Not even close.

I agree with the general sentiment about Pele's opinions and all the players mentioned bar Saviola. He was quality. And Crespo, Batistuta, Riquelme and Aimar were mentioned unless I'm very much mistaken and the rest were only coming onto the scene at that point. Although I remember he put Veron one place ahead of Riquelme, which was ridiculous

MaroonAndGreen

Alex Ferguson has chipped in with his opinion, says that you cant dispute that Messi is the better player.

http://www.bbc.com/sport/0/football/32455354

Big Pussy Bonpensiero

MaroonAndGreen wrote: »

Alex Ferguson has chipped in with his opinion, says that you cant dispute that Messi is the better player.

http://www.bbc.com/sport/0/football/32455354

"People say, 'who's the best player in the world' and plenty of people rightly say Lionel Messi - you can't dispute that opinion. But Ronaldo could play for Millwall, Queens Park Rangers and Doncaster and score a hat-trick - I'm not sure Messi could do it.
"Ronaldo's got two feet, quick, brave in the air. I think Messi's a Barcelona player."

That's the quote actually, which I think is rubbish tbh. Think either player could play in any team in the world and still score 30+ goals a season.

Had Ronaldo started his career at either Real or Barca would he have moved? Doubtful. Messi did and so he doesn't really need a transfer as any move would either be a step sideways or down.

sReq | uTeK

MaroonAndGreen wrote: »

Alex Ferguson has chipped in with his opinion, says that you cant dispute that Messi is the better player.

http://www.bbc.com/sport/0/football/32455354

Didn't say that or anything close to that but hey..... no worries

THFC

THFC wrote: »

"People say, 'who's the best player in the world' and plenty of people rightly say Lionel Messi - you can't dispute that opinion. But Ronaldo could play for Millwall, Queens Park Rangers and Doncaster and score a hat-trick - I'm not sure Messi could do it.
"Ronaldo's got two feet, quick, brave in the air. I think Messi's a Barcelona player."

That's the quote actually, which I think is rubbish tbh. Think either player could play in any team in the world and still score 30+ goals a season.

Had Ronaldo started his career at either Real or Barca would he have moved? Doubtful. Messi did and so he doesn't really need a transfer as any move would either be a step sideways or down.

Has he been at the wine? Messi is a Barcelona player, Ronaldo is a Real Madrid player. He sounds not sure!

CSF

CSF wrote: »

Not gonna lie to you, I loved that moment.

I also. It helped give us World Cup :D

Too Tough To Die

Fergies talking guff. He's right that Messi is better, but to say he wouldn't score a hat-trick for Doncaster? In the lower leagues?

To be fair, i think he felt the need to backtrack a bit and give Ronaldo some extra credit after blurting out that you couldn't dispute that Messi was the best.

MaroonAndGreen

sReq | uTeK wrote: »

Didn't say that or anything close to that but hey..... no worries

Eh, yes he did?

"People say, 'who's the best player in the world' and plenty of people rightly say Lionel Messi - you can't dispute that opinion.''

bucketybuck

MaroonAndGreen wrote: »

Eh, yes he did?

"People say, 'who's the best player in the world' and plenty of people rightly say Lionel Messi - you can't dispute that opinion.''

He said that people are allowed to have their opinions.

Its written in English, why are so many struggling with what he said?

MaroonAndGreen

bucketybuck wrote:

He said that people are allowed to have their opinions.

WTF. You are the one grasping it all wrong, it's obvious what he meant

Fudge You

bucketybuck wrote: »

He said that people are allowed to have their opinions.

Its written in English, why are so many struggling with what he said?

I can't dispute your opinion.

Gringo180

Messi is just a wizard.

Talib Fiasco

Poll needs Penaldo option

Ulysses Gaze

Talib Fiasco wrote: »

Poll needs Penaldo option

inforfun

Just read this on arseblog and i can only agree

Poor Boateng, footballistically eviscerated on the biggest stage, but really Messi can do that to anyone. I was there when we annoyed him by scoring first at the Camp Nou and he then went on to destroy Sylvester and Vermaelen, particularly the former who was so bad that night he was replaced by Emmanuel Eboue and, if I recall correctly, Bacary Sagna moved into the centre of defence. I could be not recalling that correctly though.

The point is he is just amazing. The goals he scores, the incredible regularity with which he gets them, and the fact that he can turn it on against any team, big or small, is incredible. That he does it without any of the preening, poncing, and precious pomposity of Ronaldo is another very large tick in his 'for' column. He performances could back up any kind of cocky swagger he might feel like indulging in, but he simply lets his football do the talking for him before he goes back to a dressing room filled with Dickie-bows, dinner jackets, platform shoes, fake spectacles, earrings, crap headphones and tattoos, to put on his trainee-accountant clothes.

BetterCallSaul

BetterCallSaul wrote: »

For comparison, Maradona's record is 34 goals in 91 games.

Of course, Maradona led his country to a World Cup and almost won it again.

He also did it when whole teams appeared to go out with the idea of at least putting one hacker on him, but more usually a number of them to kick him around the pitch.

I know the world has gone Messi crazy again since last night, and who doesn't like a player turning it on, but he will never do what Maradona did, and maybe the game has evolved so thankfully he won't have to be hacked as Maradona was.

inforfun

It is very hard to come to a best ever. Time has changed the game.

You really can only say were there better players than Maradonna during Maradonna's playing days and the answer is a big fat NO.

Same answer will be there for Messi.

MD1990

inforfun wrote: »

Just read this on arseblog and i can only agree

Poor Boateng, footballistically eviscerated on the biggest stage, but really Messi can do that to anyone. I was there when we annoyed him by scoring first at the Camp Nou and he then went on to destroy Sylvester and Vermaelen, particularly the former who was so bad that night he was replaced by Emmanuel Eboue and, if I recall correctly, Bacary Sagna moved into the centre of defence. I could be not recalling that correctly though.

The point is he is just amazing. The goals he scores, the incredible regularity with which he gets them, and the fact that he can turn it on against any team, big or small, is incredible. That he does it without any of the preening, poncing, and precious pomposity of Ronaldo is another very large tick in his 'for' column. He performances could back up any kind of cocky swagger he might feel like indulging in, but he simply lets his football do the talking for him before he goes back to a dressing room filled with Dickie-bows, dinner jackets, platform shoes, fake spectacles, earrings, crap headphones and tattoos, to put on his trainee-accountant clothes.

Not quite true

inforfun

Yes it is true


The line contains "dressing room"
Not fifa award ceremony

Mickeroo

Just in case anyone thought something funny was happening there, Gringo had replied to this thread but I moved the posts here since it was active recently.

Now, carry on with the discussion Messi's impeccable dress sense.:pac:

kfallon

Deleted User wrote: »

Of course, Maradona led his country to a World Cup and almost won it again.

He also went to a team in Italy who were relegation contenders and turned them into title winners in 3 seasons (they finished 3rd in his second season)

5star02707

Depends which system you play. I will however vote for Messi because he is a team player and very humble person than Ronaldo :P

Andersonisgod

A quote sums it up nicely I think.

"Maradona was Maradona some days, Messi is Maradona every day."

MD1990

It is crazy that Messi score 50+ goals every season but he isn't selfish at all. Atm he is way ahead of Ronaldo who despite his goals has declined as a player.

The_Kew_Tour

Andersonisgod wrote: »

A quote sums it up nicely I think.

"Maradona was Maradona some days, Messi is Maradona every day."

Its clear to see Posters who never saw The World Cup Winner play.

Andersonisgod

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

Its clear to see Posters who never saw The World Cup Winner play.

And it's clear to see the posters that didn't see Maradona week in, week out and not for a few games every 4 years.

kfallon

Andersonisgod wrote: »

And it's clear to see the posters that didn't see Maradona week in, week out and not for a few games every 4 years.

We all saw him on Italian football on Network 2!

Messi will never, ever be Maradona! He will never have the affection of the Aregentine people that the best ever has! There's a reason for that!

Mickeroo

kfallon wrote: »

We all saw him on Italian football on Network 2!

Messi will never, ever be Maradona! He will never have the affection of the Aregentine people that the best ever has! There's a reason for that!

Yup, mainly nostalgia and lack of controversy.

Andersonisgod

kfallon wrote: »

We all saw him on Italian football on Network 2!

Messi will never, ever be Maradona! He will never have the affection of the Aregentine people that the best ever has! There's a reason for that!

As said above, nostalgia and a lack of controversy pretty much covers it. He's adored in Argentina, not as much as Maradona obviously but then he's a hero in Barcelona, a conquering hero, an honorary Catalan.

inforfun

And Maradonna can take a **** on the plate of every person in Napoli and they all will eat around it.

They are both the very best.
Of their own era.

parc

The best way to answer the "best ever" question is simple. Ask - who would you rather have in your team? Messi or Maradona. This just focuses on the players and takes external factors that are impossible to account for out of the equation (ie standard of team played in/against, development of tactics over the years etc.)

I'd chose Messi. Messi is a better than Maradona

I know a lot of people will say "Maradona won the World Cup and guided Napoli to a title" but all else being equal I'd rather have Messi in my team. There's a lot of reverence to the past in these arguments and I suppose you could say Maradona did it first. But who would you rather have in your team?

I'm not a Barca fan, but just relax, accept it, and enjoy quite an abnormal individual (ie in that literally no one on the planet can do what he does as well as he does it).

bucketybuck

parc wrote: »

The best way to answer the "best ever" question is simple. Ask - who would you rather have in your team? Messi or Maradona. This just focuses on the players and takes external factors that are impossible to account for out of the equation (ie standard of team played in/against, development of tactics over the years etc.)

I'd chose Messi. Messi is a better than Maradona

I know a lot of people will say "Maradona won the World Cup and guided Napoli to a title" but all else being equal I'd rather have Messi in my team. There's a lot of reverence to the past in these arguments and I suppose you could say Maradona did it first. But who would you rather have in your team?

I'm not a Barca fan, but just relax, accept it, and enjoy quite an abnormal individual (ie in that literally no one on the planet can do what he does as well as he does it).

You've chosen the wrong argument there I'm afraid. I lean towards thinking Messi and Ronaldo both have reached the point where external factors don't even matter any more, they have reached such a high level that they are close to being undisputed GOAT's.

But a one off game? One game, to save your life? It would be very hard not to pick Maradona in that example. That man was a warrior who dragged poor teams to victory, if I had a team of schmucks and one good player, I'd want that player to be Maradona.

Cienciano

inforfun wrote: »

Yes it is true


The line contains "dressing room"
Not fifa award ceremony

They were talking about this on Second Captains. It's like one direction and a geography teacher.

parc

parc wrote: »

The best way to answer the "best ever" question is simple. Ask - who would you rather have in your team?

Um. Now? Well very obviously a player playing now who is up to the tempo of the game now!

Not sure the question you pose and answer yourself is the be all and end all of the best ever questions. Every sport evolves. I think Messi would have been cut in two in some of the games Maradona came through, with teams of Italians and Belgians roaming the pitch solely to tackle him and then the light relief of Italian and Spanish defenders in the 80s when back at club duty. Why not measure them by that and put him in a team from that era?

kfallon

parc wrote: »

The best way to answer the "best ever" question is simple. Ask - who would you rather have in your team? Messi or Maradona

And let's make it even more interesting, played under the rules as they were in late 1980's!

Bohrio

kfallon wrote: »

We all saw him on Italian football on Network 2!

Messi will never, ever be Maradona! He will never have the affection of the Aregentine people that the best ever has! There's a reason for that!

The main reason for that is that Maradora knew how to win the Argentinian hearts. He is a show man in a way.

Comparing Maradona and Messi is logical, personally I think Messi was more constant, which one is better well I really dont know, both were great.

However, in regards Messy or Ronaldo I think it is clear, for instance, when people talk about Messi they compare him to Maradona, when people talk about Ronaldo they compare him to Messi...

I think Messi is in a different level, Ronaldo is an excellent striker but that's about it, wouldnt come close to the "real" Ronaldo in my opinion although overall he has been more constant and his performance has been excellent during the last 8-10 years whether the other Ronaldo only lasted a few years.

If you look at yesterdays game you can see Messi constantly putting pressure on the opponents, looking for the ball, creating chances, he can play as a midfielder, wing, striker, etc etc. All those things are lacking in Ronaldo, yes, Ronaldo jumps higher I know... but seriously, maybe I am blind or maybe I haven't watched enough Real Madrid or Ronaldo games but I have never seen Ronaldo do what Messi does, his goals are mostly a display of physical power and of course, great technical abilities but not at the same level as Messi.

Also, maybe it is just me, but I feel Messi does what he does naturally, like without trying, Ronaldo looks to me he is what he is because he works really hard to get there...

kfallon wrote: »

And let's make it even more interesting, played under the rules as they were in late 1980's!

True but IMO, an average player now is better than an average player back in the 80s, at least physically superior... that's something you want to take into account as well

kfallon

There's not a whole lot between Messi & Ronaldo tbh (I have no allegiance to either), both are genuinely great players who it's a privilege to watch,.

But I don't think either could have played the career of Maradona and done it better!

kfallon

Bohrio wrote: »

True but IMO, an average player now is better than an average player back in the 80s, at least physically superior... that's something you want to take into account as well

Average players back then could hack a good player without fear of a red, average players back then could leave a player in behind them knowing they'd defo be flagged offside. Average players back then could waste half the game by passing it back to the keeper who could pick it up, the biggest timewasting scourge ever in the game!