Messi Or Ronaldo?

Billy86

Bohrio wrote: »

Although it is something I wouldnt mind to see, both of them playing in the same team... I am sure it would be incredible too watch and it could do on short term basis.

It nearly happened, apparently in 2002 it was almost a coin flip for Barca about whether they were going to take Quaresma or Ronaldo. Quaresma was seen as the more finished product and Barca has been on a slide for a while, so they went with him which allowed Man Utd to go in for Ronaldo. Really makes you wonder what could have been had they gone the other way...

Bohrio

Billy86 wrote: »

It nearly happened, apparently in 2002 it was almost a coin flip for Barca about whether they were going to take Quaresma or Ronaldo. Quaresma was seen as the more finished product and Barca has been on a slide for a while, so they went with him which allowed Man Utd to go in for Ronaldo. Really makes you wonder what could have been had they gone the other way...

Wow I didnt know that... imagine :pac:

Turtwig

Nuts102 wrote: »

It has been well documented what Messi did which was disgusting from a player.

This is something that always confuses me. Kind of like that report that ronaldo would have his teammates verbally insult Messi and train in ways to demean him.

All we know is that Lio had a dispute with Enrique. Xavi, Iniesta and Busquets helped to resolve it. It was a heated dispute but it's not clear whether or not Messi actively called for Enrique to be fired. You have to remember when it comes Barca/Madrid politics plays a huge part. There's elements in Barcelona that don't want Enrique to succeed. There's elements in Madrid that will do anything to sow misinformation about Barcelona. The internal politics of both these sides are fascinating.

Likewise, the whole shyte against Bale existed while he was playing well. He can't speak Spanish, hasn't been able to publicly defend himself. Isco hasn't exactly been more sparkling than Bale. Yet his reputation in Madrid is much much higher than Bale. A lot of the criticisms of Bale are fuelled as a means to knock Perez. Perez, is stuck in the dilemma of if he publicly sticks up for Bale then it looks like Bale is being protected from high. Fuelling even further grief against the player.


I can't understand why in soccer people assume that reported stories are true. Most of the time the media is full of shyte. They just produce enough shyte that sometimes they get it right.

Bohrio

Nuts102 wrote: »

So basically you have nothing to back up your point than Ronaldo tried to get rid of Mourinho.

So any time now I suppose? I am not sure why is taking so long, I mean, you said it was well documented.

But remember, has to be real prove not someone saying that he said that he wanted him sacked...

Backstreet Moyes

Bohrio wrote: »

So any time now I suppose? I am not sure why is taking so long, I mean, you said it was well documented.

But remember, has to be real prove not someone saying that he said that he wanted him sacked...

I think it's fair to say that Barcelona or Messi were never going to publicly admit it.

He refuses to be subbed, gets dropped and doesn't turn up for training, he follows Chelsea on Twitter and lots of journalists reported it. That's as close as your going to get besides either side admitting it.

That's far more evidence then your conspiracy on Ronaldo.

http://www.express.co.uk/sport/football/550628/Barcelona-Luis-Enrique-Lionel-Messi-200m-Chelsea

https://uk.eurosport.yahoo.com/news/liga-barcelona-crisis-continues-will-lionel-messi-get-093824789--sow.html

https://uk.eurosport.yahoo.com/blogs/early-doors/bigger-than-barcelona--messi-refuses-to-be-subbed-093827368.html

Backstreet Moyes

Bohrio wrote: »

True goals are not everything (except when we are comparing Ronaldo and Messi) but it is a way of measuring performance and how things are going, and him being third top scorer just below the 2 best players of the moment is good enough to indicate he is certainly world class. Again, his performance with Brasil was excellent.

Bale did a decent season last year, not 100 million season but he did some bits here and there but nothing to take your breath away. And now he is really struggling, his relationship with the team is not the best and you can see that in the pitch, they ignore him most of the time or at least this is how it looks like

For whatever reason Bale is not focused, and he is not happy, 100 million is what Madrid paid for Ronaldo, and this guy is nowhere close to him.

Ancelotti has said a few times that Bale is not performing well

A few pages back you said Messi is carrying Neymar and now your calling Neymar world class. No player is world class if they are getting carried by another player.

Turtwig

Ah jeez,

Messi only walks about 6 or 7km in a match. It's questionable whether that really needs a substitution. To put in context Pirlo ran over 13km in the match against Real Madrid.

Ronaldo's distance covered stats for Madrid aren't that impressive either. Both of them are lazy fckers in some ways. :pac:

The South American players at Barca were under the impression they had more days off. They didn't know that taking those days off meant missing the first match back after Christmas. Things came to a boil when Luis Enrique refused to award Messi a foul during a training match. Messi and other Barcelona players didn't particularly like Enrique's philosophies. They especially didn't like his rigorous pre-season and fitness regimes throughout the season. The guy is a triathlon ironman enthusiasts and it shows in his players. Messi is the slimmest I've ever seen him. When he's off the field it's really really noticeable.

That's pretty much all we know. The media, particularly the Madrid based and anti-enrique/ current Barca board, decided to add all sorts of meaning and other alleged incidences to it.

It could be true, it's just that the people who I rely on for accurate insight e.g Sid Lowe weren't proclaiming near the calamity as the tabloid media were. There were tensions. Messi was not happy with Cesc and Alexis been sold. That he definitely made publicly known. Whether he wanted Enrique actually sacked. Who knows? A lot of Barca players didn't like Enrique. Whether any or a group call for his sacking though we'll probably never know.

Turtwig

Nuts102 wrote: »

A few pages back you said Messi is carrying Neymar and now your calling Neymar world class. No player is world class if they are getting carried by another player.

Xavi and Iniesta carried Messi. :pac:

Bohrio

Nuts102 wrote: »

I think it's fair to say that Barcelona or Messi were never going to publicly admit it.

He refuses to be subbed, gets dropped and doesn't turn up for training, he follows Chelsea on Twitter and lots of journalists reported it. That's as close as your going to get besides either side admitting it.

That's far more evidence then your conspiracy on Ronaldo.

http://www.express.co.uk/sport/football/550628/Barcelona-Luis-Enrique-Lionel-Messi-200m-Chelsea

https://uk.eurosport.yahoo.com/news/liga-barcelona-crisis-continues-will-lionel-messi-get-093824789--sow.html

https://uk.eurosport.yahoo.com/blogs/early-doors/bigger-than-barcelona--messi-refuses-to-be-subbed-093827368.html

So basically you have no proof... that evidence as you call it is just rumors (and they dont prove he wanted him sacked, and the part where you said he follows Chelsea on twitter is just ...) but you trust those sources and not the people denying it... I can also keep posting link to papers with "rumors" as well.

Well here you have Messi's interview saying he never wanted him sacked and never even thought of leaving Barcelona, which is a stronger proof (or evidence as you called it) that what you gave us

link

A few pages back you said Messi is carrying Neymar and now your calling Neymar world class. No player is world class if they are getting carried by another player.

Where, can you please show me? I dont recall saying exactly that, maybe I said Messi assists Suarez and Neymar? but from there to carry them...

I have said he is world class, he is Brazil's captain, and has saved Barcelona several times this year, certainly top 10 players on his position at the moment. And like Turtwig said, he has carried Barcelona when Messi was not well or injured and Suarez was not allowed to play. And when Xavi and Iniesta were not (and still arent) at 100%

Nalz

Sigh

Does it matter if Ronaldo or Messi are assesses?

They're talent,record and contribution to their teams should be discussed and assessed only tbh when comparing.

Messi just tips it for me, but it's close. Closer than alot of the anti united\real fans and the "the celebrates on his own and look at his hair" like to admit.

Fücking joke at this stage tbph

Backstreet Moyes

Bohrio wrote: »

But the thing is that Suarez and Neymar are not really the ones helping Messi but the other way around. Messi makes them look good, and this is the main thing. Most of their goals have come from Messi's assists.

There you go where you said Messi makes Neymar look good. If a world class player needs someone else to make him look good then he ain't world class.

Bohrio

Nuts102 wrote: »

There you go where you said Messi makes Neymar look good. If a world class player needs someone else to make him look good then he ain't world class.

It just says that Messi makes other players look good (which is true), which doesnt mean the other players are bad, someone already said, Xavi and Iniesta sometimes make Messi look good! this was in response to someone saying that Neymar and Suarez often assist Messi. I also said that in some cases, this has been the opposite.

From making someone look good to carry him there is big difference...

PS: edited my post a bit... lets just leave it there... dont feel like arguing about senseless stuff

dfx-

Turtwig wrote: »

Xavi and Iniesta carried Messi. :pac:

Well Iniesta is the best player in the world..:)

CSF

Some serious quality logic going on here Bohrio, fair play. The Golden Miller, you have competition.

Nalz

Bohrio wrote: »

PS: edited my post a bit... lets just leave it there... dont feel like arguing about senseless stuff

Then just delete your post

bucketybuck

I want to hear more about how Bebeto was better than Ronaldo!!! :pac:

GreNoLi

As much as I find this 'debate' to be tiresome I envision another chapter to be written with both players moving to Italy (Inter/AC).

I would love to see Messi playing in another league and no doubt be successful.

Pie in the sky speculation on my part though.

The Golden Miller

CSF wrote: »

Some serious quality logic going on here Bohrio, fair play. The Golden Miller, you have competition.

I just call it as it is. You on the other hand like to twist meaningless stats

Ulysses Gaze

bucketybuck wrote: »

I want to hear more about how Bebeto was better than Ronaldo!!! :pac:

He won the World Cup, invented a Goal Celebration and had a nice head of hair....

Cienciano

bucketybuck wrote: »

I want to hear more about how Bebeto was better than Ronaldo!!! :pac:

For some reason the only thing I can remember Bebeto doing was that rocking the baby celebration.

Vex Willems

bucketybuck wrote: »

I want to hear more about how Bebeto was better than Ronaldo!!! :pac:

You obviously never played Striker on the SNES, if you did, you'd know that Bebeto was the greatest player ever! :pac:

TheDoc

Trilla wrote: »

Sigh

Does it matter if Ronaldo or Messi are assesses?

They're talent,record and contribution to their teams should be discussed and assessed only tbh when comparing.

Messi just tips it for me, but it's close. Closer than alot of the anti united\real fans and the "the celebrates on his own and look at his hair" like to admit.

Fücking joke at this stage tbph

It's not even palpable for me how the football community as a whole can still debate this. It's typical modern football and modern fan syndrome. Lists, stats, rankings.

What utter rubbish.

We have two players, who for many years, and many years more, have smashed records week in week out. Who have scored goals in a season more then most clubs do in a season. There are two outrageously talented players who seem to have just made everyone mundane and numb to what we are actually seeing.

In most eras, there was ONE stand out player. For so long we have had two, and there is every chance that the tier behind Messi and Ronaldo, could well explode and we could have a good few players reaching dizzy heights.

I've always maintained it ridiculous to cast these " best player" and "greatest" of all time before a player actually finishes his career, and you can look back and see in full what they did and achieved.

There is also scant regard for different generations and how differently the game is played. There is plenty of sticks and good points of debate as to why Ronaldo and Messi wouldn't be the greatest of all time, and plenty to point why they would.

I know it's just one of those things people will always debate, but for me it's something that I won't cast judgement on until both have finished.

Become so apparent this season more then most. While the praise is warranted for Hazard, it's gone a bit ridiculous in some quarters. I can't recall a championship winning team that didn't have someone like Hazard in the team, for as long as I can remember. He has been standout this season, but calls of him being one of the PL greats is wildy over the top.

And while Harry Kane deserves all the plaudits and rightly so for a fantastic season, it has gone some way (obviously cause hes English) for Aguero to be somewhat completely forgotten in a lot of places. Again a striker who has made the exceptional into the rule, and most spectators and fans have become somewhat numb to his exploits. The best striker in the world, with better to come, will finish leagues top scorer, cant even get into the PL team of the year.

Too Tough To Die

TheDoc wrote: »

There is also scant regard for different generations and how differently the game is played. There is plenty of sticks and good points of debate as to why Ronaldo and Messi wouldn't be the greatest of all time, and plenty to point why they would.

No. There is no good point of debate whatsoever as to why Ronaldo would be the greatest of all time. Not one.

TheDoc

Too Tough To Die wrote: »

No. There is no good point of debate whatsoever as to why Ronaldo would be the greatest of all time. Not one.

haha, ok mate, your the boss!

sReq | uTeK

Too Tough To Die wrote: »

No. There is no good point of debate whatsoever as to why Ronaldo would be the greatest of all time. Not one.

Nice Opinion you have there skipper.

Bohrio

Cienciano wrote: »

For some reason the only thing I can remember Bebeto doing was that rocking the baby celebration.

No worries, let me refresh your memory

Bebeto has the fifth highest goal score for Brazil National Team after Pele, Romario, Ronaldo and Zico. Edit: Sorry it is actually the Sixth as Neymar overtook him recently!

He has won 3 Brazilian Leagues, 1 spanish cup, 1 Spanish Supercup. Also with Brazil has won 1 World cup, 1 American Cup and 1 Confederation Cup.

As individual prizes he has won 1 Bota da Prata, 1 South American Footballer of the Year, 1 Pichichi Trophy (again on top of Zamorano, Stoichkov) playing with Deportivo de La Coruña and starting what it would be known as the Super Depor (they ended up 3rd in the championship 3 points behind the winner - Barcelona that year, 2nd on the next two). He only played 4 seasons in Spain (although he did return after that for 1 more although he wasnt as successful).

So in conclusion you should kneel down before talking about Bebeto and show some respect

I can only imagine that people comments here towards Bebeto are just because of lack of knowledge, he was an absolute nightmare to play against, and one of the most dangerous players out there.

Him and Romario formed one of the best and more lethal attacking duo I have ever seen.

I probably wouldnt put him higher than Stoichkov, Romario or Rivaldo, but wouldnt put him too far off

bucketybuck

Bohrio wrote: »

I probably wouldnt put him higher than Stoichkov, Romario or Rivaldo, but wouldnt put him too far off

And you put him higher than Ronaldo. Frankly, your credibility hasn't recovered from that one and isn't likely to.

Bohrio

bucketybuck wrote: »

And you put him higher than Ronaldo. Frankly, your credibility hasn't recovered from that one and isn't likely to.

Well the feeling is mutual hence why I stopped posting for a while, I just find it surprising some peoples the lack of knowledge about the Spanish League... I know nothing about the Premier, hence why I never comment (or at least try not to)

I would probably put Stoichkov at the same level of Ronaldo although I still prefer Stoichkov, not sure about the others, it will really depend on the situation as they were completely different players. To me Romario was a better striker, Bebeto was excellent as well, my comparison was that I would put C Ronaldo on the same level as those players.

But then again, it seems that everyone here can have an opinion but only as long as it is the same as yours

CSF

Bohrio wrote: »

Well the feeling is mutual hence why I stopped posting for a while, I just find it surprising some peoples the lack of knowledge about the Spanish League... I know nothing about the Premier, hence why I never comment (or at least try not to)

I would probably put Stoichkov at the same level of Ronaldo although I still prefer Stoichkov, not sure about the others, it will really depend on the situation as they were completely different players. To me Romario was a better striker, Bebeto was excellent as well, my comparison was that I would put C Ronaldo on the same level as those players.

But then again, it seems that everyone here can have an opinion but only as long as it is the same as yours

Ah man, just stop.

bucketybuck

Bohrio wrote: »

Well the feeling is mutual hence why I stopped posting for a while, I just find it surprising some peoples the lack of knowledge about the Spanish League... I know nothing about the Premier, hence why I never comment (or at least try not to)

I would probably put Stoichkov at the same level of Ronaldo although I still prefer Stoichkov, not sure about the others, it will really depend on the situation as they were completely different players. To me Romario was a better striker, Bebeto was excellent as well, my comparison was that I would put C Ronaldo on the same level as those players.

But then again, it seems that everyone here can have an opinion but only as long as it is the same as yours

Oh, you can have your opinion. And I will laugh at it, because the opinion you told us was just stupid.

By the way, my peak football fan years were as a teenager, which just happened to be the era of Bebeto, Romario, Stoichkov et al. I know full well what they were like as players. Just saying.

Bohrio

CSF wrote: »

Ah man, just stop.

Yeah I am going have to

I just dont know what I am doing wrong here as it is obvious I am coming across all wrong with my opinion.

Not calling anyone racists It has to be because I grew up in Spain and to me, these players were absolute gods,. I watched them every weekend, back when the only league I knew was the spanish league! (well I knew of other leagues but no a lot) otherwise I dont understand how people only remember him because of the baby gesture.

CSF

Bohrio wrote: »

Yeah I am going have to

I just dont know what I am doing wrong here as it is obvious I am coming across all wrong with my opinion.

Not calling anyone racists It has to be because I grew up in Spain and to me, these players were absolute gods when I was younger otherwise I dont understand how people only remember him because of the baby gesture.

Its not a question of this really, he was a good player, alot more than just a good celebration. But not even resembling the same league as Cristiano Ronaldo. Not sure who I'd compare him to in quality today. Maybe Tevez.

Bohrio

CSF wrote: »

Its not a question of this really, he was a good player, alot more than just a good celebration. But not even resembling the same league as Cristiano Ronaldo. Not sure who I'd compare him to in quality today. Maybe Tevez.

Ah ok so is the comparison then. In all fairness I was thinking of specific skills more than as a total player.

For instance, Hristo although CR is a better striker I found Stoichkov and him to be at a same level, If I compare him to Romario I wouldnt think he would be a better striker than Romario although he would be better in other aspects specially physically, etc, and again compared to Bebeto, he wouldnt have the ability with the ball and dribbling skills (IMO) but he would be better at other things etc etc

BUt I wouldnt put CR close to Ronaldo N or Ronaldinho for instance, although the thing I admire most about CR is that he never gives up, he has been in great form for years, whether the other players I mentioned (prob with the exception of Hristo) didnt last long at their peak career.

Also I might be looking at the wrong things, for me to consider a player exceptional it has to do things that will take my breath away, I still remember Ronaldo N goals against santiago de compostela back in the 90s, I was watching it on TV and I just couldnt believe what he had just done, he was the first player (after Maradona) to surprise me like that, and since then Only Ronaldinho has done the same (ok, Zidane was there as well) and recently only Lionel.

fryup

so where was Ronaldo tonight?? nowhere

as usual when he's needed most in a pressure game he goes missing

messi stepped up to the plate and scored twice against bayern when their backs were against the wall...but Ronaldo hides and sulks and blames his teammates

in short he's a poser, he does the step overs and the fancy flicks but that doesn't win you games its the hard graft and strength of character which is something that Ronaldo is lacking

gimmick

Well the going got tough there. Didn't see the ballon dor do anything about it again.

Iused2likebusts

Ronaldo wont be winning the ballon dor this year anyway not that he deserved it to date. However with how these things work if he had of won la liga and the champions league and with his goalscoring stats he wouldve been in with a shout. Messi is getting back his crown.

bucketybuck

Are we back to the Ronaldo doesn't turn up for big games argument yet? That one is always fun!

tayto lover

bucketybuck wrote: »

Are we back to the Ronaldo doesn't turn up for big games argument yet? That one is always fun!

Why was he replaced at half-time tonight?

bucketybuck

tayto lover wrote: »

Why was he replaced at half-time tonight?

He wasn't. And if he had been its because he doesn't show up when the pressure is on.

fryup

bucketybuck wrote: »

Are we back to the Ronaldo doesn't turn up for big games argument yet? That one is always fun!

but true

sReq | uTeK

fryup wrote: »

so where was Ronaldo tonight?? nowhere

as usual when he's needed most in a pressure game he goes missing

messi stepped up to the plate and scored twice against bayern when their backs were against the wall...but Ronaldo hides and sulks and blames his teammates

in short he's a poser, he does the step overs and the fancy flicks but that doesn't win you games its the hard graft and strength of character which is something that Ronaldo is lacking

Alright eamonn?

Because stepping up to take a penalty in the champions league semi final when you need to score is clearly hiding, no pressure like.

I didn't know that every professional player had good games 100% of the time. Of course we could turn your argument on its head and ask you where was messi when Barcelona we decimated 7-0 last season.....was he hiding in the stands....nah we won't go there its safe to assume he just had a **** game, it happens sherlock.

Talib Fiasco

He's a bottler Bill. He hasn't the bottle for the big games. He'd be better off in Qatar earning his big bucks and feeding his ego and his goal scoring achievements in a league with easy opposition. He's a bottler.

Ulysses Gaze

sReq | uTeK wrote: »

Alright eamonn?

Because stepping up to take a penalty in the champions league semi final when you need to score is clearly hiding, no pressure like.

I didn't know that every professional player had good games 100% of the time. Of course we could turn your argument on its head and ask you where was messi when Barcelona we decimated 7-0 last season.....was he hiding in the stands....nah we won't go there its safe to assume he just had a **** game, it happens sherlock.

"A puffball. A nothing player. Has never done it on the big stage. Will never be a player as long as he has a hole in his arse. Scores the fifth goal in meaningless La Liga games when Real win 8-0, but when it come to the showdown baby, he won't be there. "

MD1990

Ronaldo's all round game has declined alot this season. He is now still the best goal poacher in the world but he is not exciting to watch anymore more so just very efficient.

CSF

MD1990 wrote: »

Ronaldo's all round game has declined alot this season. He is now still the best goal poacher in the world but he is not exciting to watch anymore more so just very efficient.

In the last 4 months, yes, for sure. Will be interesting to see if/how he bounces back.

Talib Fiasco

People are saying on twitter etc that Ronaldo is past his prime but I think that's not fair in a sense...has he peaked? Probably, in fact most likely. Has Messi peaked? Yes probably, the year he broke the goal scoring record will probably go down as the best year for a player in the history of the game. A lot of people suggested that Messi was past his prime last year and in decline but this year he has been as effective as he has ever been, and has matured into a more creative role and people no longer associate him with just his crazy goal scoring ability. I have always enjoyed watching Messi playing even when he was "past it" but he has been a joy to watch this year being more responsible for creating rather than just dribbling his way through and scoring every time.

I think Messi will in fact win quite a few Ballon D'Or's etc in a Xavi/Iniesta role in four or five years time when he adapts into that role.But yeah back to Ronaldo, I think he has peaked but is certainly not slowing up...he has 3/4 years left in him at the very very top for sure.

j8wk2feszrnpao

It's hard to totally fault Ronaldo for Real going out tonight, there was a collection of players at fault.

But for all his goals (and he's an all time great on that alone) the big game bug does bite him too often.

Real have won the league once (in 6 seasons) since signing Ronaldo. That's a poor return. The Copas Del Ray cups have helped, and of course the CL win last year (when Ronaldo was poor) have been successful for Real.

But when it comes down to it, Messi is the standout player of this generation. He has the goals tally to match Ronaldo, but it's the magic in the big games (and the incredible high consistent level) over almost a decade that sets him apart.

It's unfortunate for Ronaldo, cause if there was no Messi, he'd probably have won the Ballon d'Or another three times.

But there is Messi, and thankfully there is. What a talent and a joy to watch.

Cienciano

You cannot just take the semi final performances into account to compare the 2 players. If you did, ronaldo wouldn't on the same planet as messi, they are light years apart.

Shanotheslayer

Ronaldo has 10 Semi final goals In the CL. The nearest to that is a few players on 5.... But Yeh doesn't do it in big games.....

Rayne Wooney

Shanotheslayer wrote: »

Ronaldo has 10 Semi final goals In the CL. The nearest to that is a few players on 5.... But Yeh doesn't do it in big games.....

But they are just goals sure he was hiding in the dressing room when he wasn't toe poking the ball in the net like the good little poacher he is who is in decline