Messi Or Ronaldo?

eagle eye

Dirty Dingus McGee wrote: »

Vidic and Ferdinand are better than any of Barclona's defenders.Evra was one of the best left backs in the world and Van derSaar is better than any goalie Barclona have ever had.Scholes,Rooney and Tevez were all top class players aswell in the Man Utd team he played in.

Bale,Ramos,Pepe,Kroos,Benzema,Modric,Di Maria,Ozil were all great players taht Ronalod has played with in Spain.

Puyol was better than Vidic or Ferdinand. Pique has turned into a great one too and was excellent beside Puyol.

Who are you putting Scholes in ahead of? Xavi or Iniesta?

Who is Rooney replacing? Messi, Ronaldinho, Villa, Eto'o?

Tevez isn't getting near that team either.

So Van der Sar, Evra and Vidic are three. I said you wouldn't get a lot of players from that team and I'll stand by it.

I never mentioned the Real Madrid team, clearly RM is full of world class players. No argument here about that.

Billy86

Dirty Dingus McGee wrote: »

I just said it was a daft suggesiton but I was using it to illsutarted the point that it is always held againt Messi that he hasn't done it at international level despite reaching 4 international finals with Argentina and failing to get over the line.

This will be used to big up Ronaldo despite his team being able to get over the line without him on the field.

That's a solid point, and to be fair, I would agree that Messi having four finals losses held against him is a bit of a joke too.

Random aside it might seem, but here there was a talk on the radio about Lebron James and Michael Jordan. Can't remember the exact figures, but I think they said Lebron has 3 NBA Finals championships in 7 appearances, while Jordan had 5 in 5. The argument being made by some was that is Lebron gets to the next two Finals and wins them both... Jordan's record will still be better than his, because he won every time whereas Lebron would have still lost basically half of them. One of the most mind-numbingly stupid arguments I have ever heard, but it kind of echoes the Messi thing.

Getting to four finals is a pretty incredible achievement, losing all four sucks but doesn't take away from getting there in the first place. And Messi does also deserve credit for that, no question.

But history is also a cruel thing, and will show a title for Ronaldo but none for Messi. Shouldn't make a difference, I think both are so comfortably top 10 of all time that they're both at the very least hovering close to top 5 (though Beckenbauer always always always has to be in every top 5, always. ), but among the hardcore fanboys it will be used as a stick to beat Messi with, exactly as it would be used as a stick to beat Ronaldo with in the reverse.

sReq | uTeK

Dirty Dingus McGee wrote: »

I just said it was a daft suggestion but I was using it to illustrate the point that it is always held againt Messi that he hasn't done it at international level despite reaching 4 international finals with Argentina and failing to get over the line.

This will be used to big up Ronaldo despite his team being able to get over the line without him on the field.

But he was on the field, he just happened to fall victim to an injury.

Backstreet Moyes

runnerholic wrote: »

Messi is the better footballer. Ronaldo is a great goalscorer. I think Ronaldo had a poor tournament by the standards you would hold an all time great to. Messi's performances in the last world cup were way ahead of what Ronaldo did at that tournament and what he did at this one. Ronaldo wasn't even Portugals best player, an accolade I'd give to Sanchez. I don't think Ronaldo is even close to Messi's level despite his incredible stats.

How many games did he even start 3? and had one good game.

Nani was Portugals best player imo.

sReq | uTeK

Dirty Dingus McGee wrote: »

Owen Hargreaves said he left Bayern Munich because it as becoming boring and needed a new challenge.I suspect that is the reason a lot of players move as once they win with one club they've done their job and can start a new spell.I'd imagine it's quite difficult to play at a very high level for the one club over your whole career and being able to motivate yourself over and over again despite achieving everything for the club must be extremely difficult and I would say more difficult than having a fresh challenge.For lifestyle reasons it would obviously be easier but for career reasons a lot of people need a new challenge to keep their standards up and I'd say professional sport is no different.

Ah here, clutching is not the word. He doesn't want to leave, he owns the club hes the manager, player and mascot. Why would he leave. Hargreaves was in no-way as influencial to Bayern as Messi is to Barca, chalk and cheese.

sReq | uTeK

Billy86 wrote: »

That's a solid point, and to be fair, I would agree that Messi having four finals losses held against him is a bit of a joke too.

Random aside it might seem, but here there was a talk on the radio about Lebron James and Michael Jordan. Can't remember the exact figures, but I think they said Lebron has 3 NBA Finals championships in 7 appearances, while Jordan had 5 in 5. The argument being made by some was that is Lebron gets to the next two Finals and wins them both... Jordan's record will still be better than his, because he won every time whereas Lebron would have still lost basically half of them. One of the most mind-numbingly stupid arguments I have ever heard, but it kind of echoes the Messi thing.

Getting to four finals is a pretty incredible achievement, losing all four sucks but doesn't take away from getting there in the first place. And Messi does also deserve credit for that, no question.

But history is also a cruel thing, and will show a title for Ronaldo but none for Messi. Shouldn't make a difference, I think both are so comfortably top 10 of all time that they're both at the very least hovering close to top 5 (though Beckenbauer always always always has to be in every top 5, always. ), but among the hardcore fanboys it will be used as a stick to beat Messi with, exactly as it would be used as a stick to beat Ronaldo with in the reverse.

Jimmy White got to 6 world championship snooker finals, didn't win won though. Doesn't take away from his greatness, but his name is not on any of the trophies.

History remembers winners, whilst Messi is one of if not the greatest player to have played football on this planet, he still hasn't won an international tournament, especially as an underdog in a weak team.

However, players playing for international teams is a world apart from playing with a set 11, 7 days a week 365 days a year. Its silly to try and compare.

sReq | uTeK

Nuts102 wrote: »

How many games did he even start 3? and had one good game.

Nani was Portugals best player imo.

Agreed, 3. Nani was fantastic all tournament. Lets not forget Ronaldo has been nursing an injury before the champions league final. No excuse, but its still an injury.

Billy86

Dirty Dingus McGee wrote: »

Owen Hargreaves said he left Bayern Munich because it as becoming boring and needed a new challenge.I suspect that is the reason a lot of players move as once they win with one club they've done their job and can start a new spell.I'd imagine it's quite difficult to play at a very high level for the one club over your whole career and being able to motivate yourself over and over again despite achieving everything for the club must be extremely difficult and I would say more difficult than having a fresh challenge.For lifestyle reasons it would obviously be easier but for career reasons a lot of people need a new challenge to keep their standards up and I'd say professional sport is no different.

And at the time Hargreaves left Bayern, he went to a club in a bigger league that being Canadian would have surely been a 'fit' for him off the field, would almost surely have got a decent pay bump, went to a Champions League semi finalist and English league champions from Bayern who didn't even qualify for the Champions League that season, and where he had been having a lot of difficulties with injuries I am sure he had hoped would go away.

It's not a good comparison, would be like if Barca or Madrid came in for De Gea this summer and got him, e.g. far less to do with a 'new challenge' and far more to do with joining a better team for more money.

When you're winning, it's got to be a lot easier to stick with the one club. And with the players he has around him (not to mention the player he is himself), Barca have done a whole lot of winning in recent years.

NIMAN

When we saw Ronaldo lift the trophy last night and shake it, screaming, how many of us thought "I bet you he's thinking UP YOURS MESSI, I'VE GOT A MAJOR TOURNAMENT TROPHY".

darced

This post has been deleted.

Dirty Dingus McGee

sReq | uTeK wrote: »

Ah here, clutching is not the word. He doesn't want to leave, he owns the club hes the manager, player and mascot. Why would he leave. Hargreaves was in no-way as influencial to Bayern as Messi is to Barca, chalk and cheese.

I'm not comparing the 2 I'm using it as an example of a professional footballer rgetting bored with continuous success (which I am sure happens) and needing a new challenge.I'm sure Hargreaves is not the only player who has got bored with playing for the same club.

eagle eye

When I was a young lad and the average man on the street was discussing the greatest players it was always Pele and Beckenbauer as the two greatest and then after that you heard about Eusebio, Best, Di Stefano, Platini(later) and Cruyff.

Now when average man talks about the greatest players it's Maradona, Pele, Zizou, Beckenbauer and Ronaldo(Brazil).

The young people demand that we include Messi and Cristiano Ronaldo but when they finish up and time goes by they will be in the afterthought along with Eusebio and George Best. Meanwhile Xavi or Iniesta will be added to the average man's pantheon of legends.

Even winning a Euro's won't change that.

That is just how the world works and all the arguments and opinions here won't change that.

As for who is better of the two, I've always thought Messi was better but I don't agree with a lot of the arguments against Ronaldo.

Iang87

sReq | uTeK wrote: »

Jimmy White got to 6 world championship snooker finals, didn't win won though. Doesn't take away from his greatness, but his name is not on any of the trophies.

History remembers winners, whilst Messi is one of if not the greatest player to have played football on this planet, he still hasn't won an international tournament, especially as an underdog in a weak team.

However, players playing for international teams is a world apart from playing with a set 11, 7 days a week 365 days a year. Its silly to try and compare.

Then why is this the fundamental comparison between the two. If we are going that route then the only comparison can surely be the world cup. Given the standard of the euros we just watched I cant help but think Argentina and chile would have given it a right rattle. Historically the euros would have been a tougher tournament to win but this time I just didn't think the quality was there that has been. I'm not taking away from Portugal they deserved their win as they screwed nobody and nobody beat them, I do hate that particular brand of football being rewarded with a major competition victory though

sReq | uTeK

Iang87 wrote: »

Then why is this the fundamental comparison between the two. If we are going that route then the only comparison can surely be the world cup. Given the standard of the euros we just watched I cant help but think Argentina and chile would have given it a right rattle. Historically the euros would have been a tougher tournament to win but this time I just didn't think the quality was there that has been. I'm not taking away from Portugal they deserved their win as they screwed nobody and nobody beat them, I do hate that particular brand of football being rewarded with a major competition victory though

I agree, it is, but I'm trying to say it shouldn't be.

chopperbyrne

https://armchairsportssociety.com/2013/02/06/a-change-of-pace-30-reasons-emile-heskey-is-better-than-lionel-messi/

Liam O

darced wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Ronaldo is a whole lot closer to Messi than Suarez is to any of them. Suarez has had 2 big seasons in Ronaldo scoring terms whereas Ronaldo has 8. Ronaldo has scored over 50 goals the last 6 seasons ffs. This about that for a second before you put Suarez anywhere near him.

Rayne Wooney

In 12 seasons Messi has only beaten Suarez's tally 3 times which he set in his first full season.

Suarez better than Messi?

Andersonisgod

A few tidbits I saw via Twitter, can't remember all the references, some are things like tactic twitter accounts, 1 definitely belongs to Sid Lowe and others.

Higuain misses a chance, Gotze takes one. Griezmann misses a chance, Eder takes one. Yet this supposedly settles the Messi vs Ronaldo debate.

Pepe won the UCL and was far more key to Portugal's Euro win therefore, by that logic, Pepe is the best player in the world.

Headline: Portugal finally win tournament, without Ronaldo!

Article headline: Portugal win tournament despite winning only one game in 90 minutes.

That's a taster of the range of stuff I'm seeing. Some of it is too harsh. There's no denying Ronaldo's leadership or goalscoring abilities. That being said, by his own standards he was pretty average in this tournament with only a couple of big moments and in the final his absence from the pitch wasn't hugely felt. Sure this entire post may seem like I'm knocking him though anyone who has read my posts previously know I consider him a truly great goalscorer but the sheer dedication of the media coverage of this victory is ridiculously weighted towards Ronaldo when there are others who contributed more to this tournament win.

tayto lover

Is it only United fans who think Ronaldo is better than Messi? Predominantly anyway it seems to be to me, then again he played for them.
Just wondering.

Skylinehead

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

In 12 seasons Messi has only beaten Suarez's tally 3 times which he set in his first full season.

Suarez better than Messi?

Wtf is this?

Messi's only beaten Suarez's best ever 3 times, therefore Suarez is somehow better?

SlickRic

darced wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Ronaldo and Messi are both top 5 of all time. For me, that's actually inarguable.

You can't produce the stats, awards and trophies that those 2 have, and not both be there. Anything else is blind hatred for one, or rose tinted glasses towards the past IMO.

Rayne Wooney

Skylinehead wrote: »

Wtf is this?

Messi's only beaten Suarez's best ever 3 times, therefore Suarez is somehow better?

It's the same logic being used to put Suarez near Ronaldo

sReq | uTeK

Andersonisgod wrote: »

A few tidbits I saw via Twitter, can't remember all the references, some are things like tactic twitter accounts, 1 definitely belongs to Sid Lowe and others.

Higuain misses a chance, Gotze takes one. Griezmann misses a chance, Eder takes one. Yet this supposedly settles the Messi vs Ronaldo debate.

Pepe won the UCL and was far more key to Portugal's Euro win therefore, by that logic, Pepe is the best player in the world.

Headline: Portugal finally win tournament, without Ronaldo!

Article headline: Portugal win tournament despite winning only one game in 90 minutes.

That's a taster of the range of stuff I'm seeing. Some of it is too harsh. There's no denying Ronaldo's leadership or goalscoring abilities. That being said, by his own standards he was pretty average in this tournament with only a couple of big moments and in the final his absence from the pitch wasn't hugely felt. Sure this entire post may seem like I'm knocking him though anyone who has read my posts previously know I consider him a truly great goalscorer but the sheer dedication of the media coverage of this victory is ridiculously weighted towards Ronaldo when there are others who contributed more to this tournament win.

Makes no sense when we didn't get to see what contribution he did or didn't make.

Andersonisgod

sReq | uTeK wrote: »

Makes no sense when we didn't get to see what contribution he did or didn't make.

Well they won without him in a game in which they were underdogs so, there's that.

Liam O

tayto lover wrote: »

Is it only United fans who think Ronaldo is better than Messi? Predominantly anyway it seems to be to me, then again he played for them.
Just wondering.

Where are all these United fans who are stating it as fact that Ronaldo is better? They're the 2 best players of our generation with similar enough achievements other than Messi's extra league titles. Very different but both very effective. You can see from the start of this thread that one is universally adored while the other is constantly belittled (relatively) despite his amazing achievements.

eagle eye

Andersonisgod wrote: »

Well they won without him in a game in which they were underdogs so, there's that.

They didn't win without him, he played for a short while and he was on the sideline encouraging his teammates after he went off injured. He did play a part even if it was from the sideline.

He was also majorly involved in getting them to that final.

Skylinehead

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

It's the same logic being used to put Suarez near Ronaldo

Missed that bit. Equally silly

darced

This post has been deleted.

Billy86

Liam O wrote: »

Where are all these United fans who are stating it as fact that Ronaldo is better? They're the 2 best players of our generation with similar enough achievements other than Messi's extra league titles. Very different but both very effective. You can see from the start of this thread that one is universally adored while the other is constantly belittled (relatively) despite his amazing achievements.

Like I said earlier in the thread, the bitterness of some who laughed him off as a failure before 2006 (when he was 21) and continued to try to do so even afterwards, some even to this day, is nothing short of beautiful. Perfect illustration of how stupid people can make themselves look by trying to save face and never, ever admit they were wrong!

Shanotheslayer

Didn't Golden Miller( or some similar name on boards) say how useless Ronaldo would be in the Euros etc?

In regards to Suarez being on their level. Goalscoring terms if he keeps it up he will be. But in terms of all round play etc. I don't think he's near there yet.

Rayne Wooney

darced wrote: »

I said if he is able to keep producing that standard will he be regarded as better than Messi?

If he does it again next year then I would have a totally different view of both Messi and Ronaldo.

I think it takes quite a bit away from the two guys to see another player come in and put up their numbers in his second season in the league.

And no I dont think Suarez is better than Ronaldo thats not what I'm saying.

It doesn't really though, when you have 3 of the top 4 clear best players in the world in the same attacking lineup, Suarez being the focal point, the numbers are going to be completely jacked up.

Suarez played just 37 games the season he scored 31 league goals in the PL, how is that being compared to Messi and Ronaldo playing 50-55 games a season?

Rooney, RVP, Drogba and more have had similar seasons to that Suarez one. All of them including Suarez play a lot closer to goal than Ronaldo and to a lesser extent Messi too.

It's a ridiculous comparison, Lewandowski would score 35+ goals for Barca, so would Aguero, are they great players? Of course they are, but they have absolutely no place in this thread with players who are on a different planet altogether, Messi and Ronaldo have been doing it for almost 10 years non stop.

tayto lover

Billy86 wrote: »

Like I said earlier in the thread, the bitterness of some who laughed him off as a failure before 2006 (when he was 21) and continued to try to do so even afterwards, some even to this day, is nothing short of beautiful. Perfect illustration of how stupid people can make themselves look by trying to save face and never, ever admit they were wrong!

I always had Ronaldo up there with the greats. Not as good as Messi though who is the best I ever saw. Not nearly as good.

Potential Underachiever

The people have spoken, the numbers are in, 63% have voted in favour of Messi. That was the point of the poll wasn't it! End debate.

Shanotheslayer

Potential Underachiever wrote: »

The people have spoken, the numbers are in, 63% have voted in favour of Messi. That was the point of the poll wasn't it! End debate.

You do know this thread started 5 years ago? I say it be fairly different now if a new poll was done.

Icaras

Potential Underachiever wrote: »

The people have spoken, the numbers are in, 63% have voted in favour of Messi. That was the point of the poll wasn't it! End debate.

Ah but people can be wrong, just look at the mess that is organised religion.

darced

This post has been deleted.

fryup

i was kinda happy for Ronaldo last night....but that evaporated after seeing this...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wZxzb0WfVHo

i mean whats that about??? taking the mickey out of your manager in public like that, thats not on, its @sshole behaviour....if i was Santos i would have kicked him in the balls

Billy86

fryup wrote: »

i was kinda happy for Ronaldo last night....but that evaporated after seeing this...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wZxzb0WfVHo

i mean whats that about??? taking the mickey out of your manager in public like that, thats not on, its @sshole behaviour....if i was Santos i would have kicked him in the balls

This.

This type of nonsense.

Do you even believe what you're typing? The guy is clearly losing his at the prospect of something he has been desperately chasing his whole life, which he might have felt was out of touch given this isn't the most talented Portugal team we have ever seen, to be mild.

He's just giddy like a child for the win, he might as well be screaming "NINTENDO SIXTY FFOOUURRR!!" through the whole video.

niallo27

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

It doesn't really though, when you have 3 of the top 4 clear best players in the world in the same attacking lineup, Suarez being the focal point, the numbers are going to be completely jacked up.

Suarez played just 37 games the season he scored 31 league goals in the PL, how is that being compared to Messi and Ronaldo playing 50-55 games a season?

Rooney, RVP, Drogba and more have had similar seasons to that Suarez one. All of them including Suarez play a lot closer to goal than Ronaldo and to a lesser extent Messi too.

It's a ridiculous comparison, Lewandowski would score 35+ goals for Barca, so would Aguero, are they great players? Of course they are, but they have absolutely no place in this thread with players who are on a different planet altogether, Messi and Ronaldo have been doing it for almost 10 years non stop.

In fairness Suarez could cure cancer and end world hunger and you would still put him down. It just comes across a bit bitter.

Donnielighto

dfx- wrote: »

A lot of the argument comes from Ronaldo fans and Messi fans arguing both are equal. You cannot dismiss the persona on the pitch as lightly as you have. It is a major difference, perhaps the major difference between the two.

It's not about records or what either of them has won, they've both won lots and lots. A pichichi here or a ballon d'or there in the difference. Messi has reinvented himself as much within one club as a frontman, wide player, creative player and now supplier to Suarez. For all the things you list, Messi matches it where possible.

So their style, teamwork, natural talent, drive, attitude - beit petulance or game-playing - do come into play. Intangible, never ending preferences who will attract one fan over the other.

Ronaldo's personality comes across as better tbh.

fryup

Billy86 wrote: »

This.

This type of nonsense.

Do you even believe what you're typing? The guy is clearly losing his at the prospect of something he has been desperately chasing his whole life, which he might have felt was out of touch given this isn't the most talented Portugal team we have ever seen, to be mild.

so that excuses that behaviour showing a total lack of respect to his country's manager with the whole world to see??

would he have done it with Fergie?? hell no

Donnielighto

fryup wrote: »

i was kinda happy for Ronaldo last night....but that evaporated after seeing this...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wZxzb0WfVHo

i mean whats that about??? taking the mickey out of your manager in public like that, thats not on, its @sshole behaviour....if i was Santos i would have kicked him in the balls

He's excited. It's a hell of a lot better than walking away during a team talk when you're supposed to be captain.

Shanotheslayer

fryup wrote: »

so that excuses that behaviour showing a total lack of respect to his country's manager with the whole world to see??

would he have done it with Fergie?? hell no

What's your thoughts on NFL footballers throwing Gatorade over their manager?

Arghus

I don't think that the outcome of yesterday's match changes anything really about Ronaldo's claim for greatness - he wasn't on the pitch for 80% of it!

Personally, I prefer Messi but I'd consider Ronaldo to be one of the best players of all time. I used to hate him, but his longevity and brilliance is hard to argue with. I've grown to appreciate the pantomine too. We'll miss him when he's gone.

fryup

Shanotheslayer wrote: »

What's your thoughts on NFL footballers throwing Gatorade over their manager?

thats totally different its usually the whole team at the end of winning the super bowl like giving someone the bumps

this was personal..look at the way Ronaldo looks at him before he nudges him in the back as if he trying to goad him...and anyway he's not suppose to be in technical area thats just for the manager

Peist2007

Messi the better player overall and i remember a lot of heated arguments with people back in the day (including my own brother) who thought Ronaldo was better. Mind you, they are closer than i thought they were back then which is a tribute to Ronaldo's greatness.

Billy86

fryup wrote: »

so that excuses that behaviour showing a total lack of respect to his country's manager with the whole world to see??

would he have done it with Fergie?? hell no

It's called celebrating, and a strong rush of adrenaline. Were Messi doing it I don't think you would be raising the issue, to be perfectly honest.

Kind of like how some people were at such pains to excuse Messi's petulance in the WC Final, and his moping at the side of the team talk while Sabella and Mascherano were trying to galvanise the team for one last push. While being as busy as possible pillorying Ronaldo for celebrating scoring a penalty in his home country, in the town he grew up in from about 11-17, during a Champions League Final for Madrid's historic 'La Decima' trophy.

As for players not messing about with Ferguson...

Look at all this flagrant disrespect, just appalling!! :mad:


Ferguson nearly always had a great sense of comradery among his players, it's a large part of why players were willing to do out and give everything they had for him, for so long. And the 'us vs the world' mentality it created was hugely successful as a result. Moyes nor LVG were able to come close to replicating that, hence the players have not put the same effort in since and have in a number of instances shown to be not as good as people may have thought up to his retirement.

niallo27

Shanotheslayer wrote: »

What's your thoughts on NFL footballers throwing Gatorade over their manager?

He really does look like he is a bit uncomfortable at the whole thing in fairness.

LuckyLloyd

tayto lover wrote: »

Is it only United fans who think Ronaldo is better than Messi? Predominantly anyway it seems to be to me, then again he played for them.
Just wondering.

I'm not a Utd fan

tayto lover

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

I'm not a Utd fan

I never said you were.
You could be accused of a lot worse.:pac: