Messi Or Ronaldo?

MD1990

Billy86 wrote: »

Possibly the best midfield combo of all time, anywhere, ever, it has to be mentioned. Not to mention Busquets and Yaya before him in behind to let them play at their very best.

Busquets is now very underated too. Best DM in the world easily.

Shanotheslayer

Without a Doubt Messi has a better team than Madrid.

Nobody can dispute that. But I think it's the level at which people think Ronaldos team mates aren't as good.

People seem to think he's playing with Glenn Whelan and the likes :pac:

I'd have Alonso on par with Busquets/Yaya as stated above.

Modric is definitely up there for being brilliant but not quite at Iniesta/Xavi level.

Iused2likebusts

Billy86 wrote: »

In that time if my maths is correct Barca have 668 points, to Madrid's 642.

Goals are more relevant than points if your going to talk about a player having an advantage in relation to assists though which is what Rayne is alluding to.

Billy86

Iused2likebusts wrote: »

Goals are more relevant than points if your going to talk about a player having an advantage in relation to assists though which is what Rayne is alluding to.

Not necessarily true, since a team is less likely keep pushing when they lead 3-0 with 20 minutes left than they will if they lead 4-2.

Billy86

MD1990 wrote: »

Busquets is now very underated too. Best DM in the world easily.

I hate him so much!!! :mad:

But yeah, you've got a point.

But I f***ing hate him so much!!! :mad:

Iused2likebusts

Billy86 wrote: »

Not necessarily true, since a team is less likely keep pushing when they lead 3-0 with 20 minutes left than they will if they lead 4-2.

The more goals your team have scored the more chance you have of getting an assist.

Billy86

Iused2likebusts wrote: »

The more goals your team have scored the more chance you have of getting an assist.

Solid point, I did a fact check and their similarities in goals scored, while we all knew was very close, is actually kind of freaky. Messi has played 3 more games, Ronaldo has scored 2 more goals (in La Liga).

Over a seven year period, especially as both have been played so often as to pick up niggling injuries that last longer due to lack of rest to let it heal, that is absurd!

Shame there is no way to check for teammates' efficiency in finishing, for example in Ronaldo's 2007/08 season he only had a handful of assists, but should have had a good 10-15 more if not for his other strikers' lack of finishing. Sounds an absurd exaggeration, but the number of times he played people through that year only for them to miss an absolute sitter was astonishing.

Could also count for Messi, don't get me wrong. And odds are with the silly amount of goals and points each team gets every year (and the talent around them), it's not much of an issue for either. It's just something I would like to see generally speaking, to quantify assists & such better.

StringerBell

SlickRic wrote: »

yet, to a man, the Portugal team and manager have had nothing but praise for how he lead the team on Sunday.

arrogance works sometimes. if he's confident enough that he believes his team can win, then you know what, players will sometimes follow that.

I think we as Irish are just suspicious of people who are arrogrant. We don't like it. We don't like people telling us how good they are.

McGregor being the exception that proves the rule

They love him telling all and sundry how good he is, how **** everyone else is, how much money he has etc

Dirty Dingus McGee

ScienceNerd wrote: »

Messi once lined out for the Kilkenny minor Hurling team when over in Ireland on Erasmus.

Ronaldo, naturally, played for Tipp.

What a bastard.

Iused2likebusts

Billy86 wrote: »

Solid point, I did a fact check and their similarities in goals scored, while we all knew was very close, is actually kind of freaky. Messi has played 3 more games, Ronaldo has scored 2 more goals (in La Liga).

Over a seven year period, especially as both have been played so often as to pick up niggling injuries that last longer due to lack of rest to let it heal, that is absurd!

Shame there is no way to check for teammates' efficiency in finishing, for example in Ronaldo's 2007/08 season he only had a handful of assists, but should have had a good 10-15 more if not for his other strikers' lack of finishing. Sounds an absurd exaggeration, but the number of times he played people through that year only for them to miss an absolute sitter was astonishing.

Could also count for Messi, don't get me wrong. And odds are with the silly amount of goals and points each team gets every year (and the talent around them), it's not much of an issue for either. It's just something I would like to see generally speaking, to quantify assists & such better.

It is scary the similarity. Barca average less than 4 pts a season more than real over the 7 yr period and real average 1 more goal scored than barca over the same period. I do think barca have had marginally the better players but it's a lot closer than some people are suggesting.

niallo27

Reading more about Ronaldo he actually comes across as a nice guy off the field. Maybe he ain't that bad after all.

Donnielighto

Mec27 wrote: »

I've seen that yeah, mongs, so a tiny island drawing on a playing pool from the island is going to have fitter players than elite tier footballers drawn from all over the world. The GAA thinks because their players start bench pressing and drinking protein shakes that the players are elite tier athletes

If the focus is brainlessly on fitness it could and the GAA (football not hurling until recently) is getting that tunnel vision

Donnielighto

darced wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

You are being intentionally obtuse, the point, and it's clear as day for anyone with half a brain, is that goals and assists in the same league (and same period) are a much closer metric than just goals/assists in any league being compared.

super_furry

Christ is this dragging on still?

Has no-one got a deck of Top Trumps to sort it out for once and for all?

Andersonisgod

Fun fact: assists are a silly way to judge creativity as they, by their very nature, rely on another person doing a sizeable portion of the work.

Shanotheslayer

Andersonisgod wrote: »

Fun fact: assists are a silly way to judge creativity as they, by their very nature, rely on another person doing a sizeable portion of the work.

Agree with this. "Chances Created" would be a better assessment

Billy86

Iused2likebusts wrote: »

It is scary the similarity. Barca average less than 4 pts a season more than real over the 7 yr period and real average 1 more goal scored than barca over the same period. I do think barca have had marginally the better players but it's a lot closer than some people are suggesting.

I would agree, and I think trying to classify one above the other is silly for the most part. I've said it a number of times... I would probably prefer Messi if I were building a dream team and wanted someone to really put it over the top, but on the flip side I would prefer Ronaldo if I wanted one player to influence the game on their own, regardless of team mates (e.g. in a "pick one player and we will pick the other 10" type scenario).

One thing I would say is that Barcas players were not world's better, but they were mostly used to playing together since kids. Especially either their style of play, that was a major benefit. But it's true that it's not link Ronaldo has not been surrounded by world class talent.

It's equal parts hilarious and depressing that we might well be looking at THE two greatest players of all time, in their primes together, and some feel the need to drag one down to make their preferred choice seem better. Modern media tactics at play, let's not go down "that" road but just look at almost any referendum/election to see what I mean.

Imagine if Michael Jordan were 20 years younger and the last decade was filled with people trying to tell us he or LeBron James are useless and probably not even the 2nd or 3rd best basketball player around. Laughable bull****, really.

mansize

Andersonisgod wrote: »

Fun fact: assists are a silly way to judge creativity as they, by their very nature, rely on another person doing a sizeable portion of the work.

Goals could be seen in the same light- the sizeable portion of each is not a constant

mansize

Billy86 wrote: »

I would agree, and I think trying to classify one above the other is silly for the most part. I've said it a number of times... I would probably prefer Messi if I were building a dream team and wanted someone to really put it over the top, but on the flip side I would prefer Ronaldo if I wanted one player to influence the game on their own, regardless of team mates (e.g. in a "pick one player and we will pick the other 10" type scenario).

One thing I would say is that Barcas players were not world's better, but they were mostly used to playing together since kids. Especially either their style of play, that was a major benefit. But it's true that it's not link Ronaldo has not been surrounded by world class talent.

It's equal parts hilarious and depressing that we might well be looking at THE two greatest players of all time, in their primes together, and some feel the need to drag one down to make their preferred choice seem better. Modern media tactics at play, let's not go down "that" road but just look at almost any referendum/election to see what I mean.

Imagine if Michael Jordan were 20 years younger and the last decade was filled with people trying to tell us he or LeBron James are useless and probably not even the 2nd or 3rd best basketball player around. Laughable bull****, really.

It would be some odds the two greatest players of all time playing at the same time!!! What are the chances!!!

Billy86

mansize wrote: »

It would be some odds the two greatest players of all time playing at the same time!!! What are the chances!!!

Slim I would imagine, Beckenbauer-Cruyff is the only instance I can think of off the top of my head, in terms of prime. Maybe maradona/platini, but most wouldn't put platini up there with the best of the best.

Andersonisgod

mansize wrote: »

Goals could be seen in the same light- the sizeable portion of each is not a constant

I absolutely agree. I hate that because of certain parties continuously framing the argument in the media a certain way, goals have become practically the be all and end all. Personally I agree with what Xavi Hernandez said recently, most people just don't watch football anymore, not really. They see gifs, they read the score, but they don't watch the match over 90 minutes.

dfx-

Billy86 wrote: »

Of course it only made you and Barca fans love Messi more, you guys had the same reaction when he was caught dodging taxes.

Messi playing games back then was the last thing Barcelona needed then with Zubizarreta sacked, Puyol sacked, supposedly second rate players had been brought in the previous Summer, the president called an election where he had no chance to win and a manager being called crazy by said president who was possibly a remnant of Rosell before him.

And Madrid had just won the European Cup and World Club Cup and were runaway league leaders.

So no, Messi messing around after Sociedad on top of all that was not loved by Barcelona fans.

Andersonisgod

dfx- wrote: »

Messi playing games back then was the last thing Barcelona needed then with Zubizarreta sacked, Puyol sacked, supposedly second rate players had been brought in the previous Summer, the president called an election where he had no chance to win and a manager being called crazy by said president who was possibly a remnant of Rosell before him.

And Madrid had just won the European Cup and World Club Cup and were runaway league leaders.

So no, Messi messing around after Sociedad on top of all that was not loved by Barcelona fans.

OK now think the opposite of all that and you have the actual real story (plus you're missing bits).

kfallon

Andersonisgod wrote: »

Personally I agree with what Xavi Hernandez said recently

Now there's a shock.....

Mec27

MD1990 wrote: »

I was responding to a post referring to Ireland not liking arrogance,

Aussie Rules is a professional sport & no they would not be fitter than PL or top level footballers.
Olympic athletes are not the norm they are genetically gifted & of course they are the definition of elite athletes.
GAA in no way should be compared to pro football players. It's complete delusion to think they are fitter than players training everyday,playing x5 as many games,90 minute games,picked from all over the world not just in some cases like Fermanagh from a pick of 18 clubs.
GAA players are no fitter than LOI players. And if an LOI team played a top team from any of the leagues across Europe they would struggle badly.

Buut muh local gaa club gets pre packaged 'health meals' from Chopped to help 'aid recovery' and we have a great sponsorship deal with myprotein and they give us all the BCAA, creatine and fish oils we need, such elite tier athletes.

sReq | uTeK

I'd love to have the poll reset as such. I'd imagine it would be a lot closer now than it was 5 years ago, with Messi marginally shading it.

ectoraige

Only one way to settle it, just get Barcelona and Real to swap the two players mid-season and compare. Simples.

Brendan Flowers

It really is a much tougher question than it should be.

Messi is undoubtedly the most naturally talented footballer that I've ever seen play. But Ronaldo's work rate and determination to be the best is phenomenal. To be World Footballer of the Year 2 years in a row and very possibly again this year when he is up against someone like Messi speaks volumes.

For me I'd pick Messi over Ronaldo at club level. At International level though I think of the 2 it'd have to be Ronaldo I'd want in my squad.

Brendan Flowers

After the 'Fifa Best' awards last night I saw that neither Ronaldo or Messi voted for one another. I guess it could be expected since they are in direct competition with one another for the prize. But I started looking into previous year's votes (when it was the Fifa Ballon D'or) and they have never once included one another in their top 3.

Here's all the votes made by both Ronaldo and Messi since 2010:

2016
Ronaldo: Bale, Modric, Ramos
Messi: Suarez, Neymar, Iniesta

2015
Ronaldo: Bale, Benzema, Rodriguez
Messi: Suarez, Neymar, Iniesta

2014
Ronaldo: Ramos, Bale, Benzema
Messi: di Maria, Iniesta, Mascherano

2013
Ronaldo: Falcao, Bale, Ozil
Messi: Iniesta, Xavi, Neymar

2012
Ronaldo: Didn't vote
Messi: Iniesta, Xavi, Aguero

2011
Ronaldo: Didn't vote
Messi: Iniesta, Xavi, Aguero

2010
Ronaldo: Xavi, Casillas, Sneijder
Messi: Didn't vote

From this the points I noted:
Ronaldo and Messi have never given each other a vote, and thus neither have ever voted for the eventual winner
Messi has never voted for anyone that wasnt a teammate at the time either at Barcelona or the Argentina National Team
4 times Ronaldo has voted for players who werent his teammate at the time (although worth noting that Ozil played half of 2013 with him at Madrid)
Ronaldo has once voted for a Barca player (Xavi in 2010), meanwhile Messi voted for di Maria the year he help lead Madrid to the Champions League (although he had since moved to Man Utd)

Clearly these 2 players have been the best in the world for many years. But what's the point of players voting for an award when they ignore the truly best footballers, pick teammates ahead of more deserving individuals and tactically help their own cause?