Funding Cancelled For Two New WIT Buildings

looksee

Given the employment blows that Waterford has received in the last while, it seems like whinging to complain about the cut backs that will affect WIT. It really isn't that big a deal, you don't need shiny new buildings to run an education facility, nice and all as it would be. Like many others I work out of a ramshackle assortment of buildings including bits of old factories and portacabins, and we get results.

As to all the stuff about a university for Waterford - Ireland's total population cannot carry a university for every county. But more to the point, if the administration of WIT has not improved considerably since I was there some 15 years ago, then it would just be a waste of money to make it into a university.

letsbet

looksee wrote: »

Given the employment blows that Waterford has received in the last while, it seems like whinging to complain about the cut backs that will affect WIT. It really isn't that big a deal, you don't need shiny new buildings to run an education facility, nice and all as it would be. Like many others I work out of a ramshackle assortment of buildings including bits of old factories and portacabins, and we get results.

As to all the stuff about a university for Waterford - Ireland's total population cannot carry a university for every county. But more to the point, if the administration of WIT has not improved considerably since I was there some 15 years ago, then it would just be a waste of money to make it into a university.

Wow some really "interesting" points there.
1. I thought when you started off talking about employment blows you were on the right track. The construction of this new building would have created jobs and some of the rooms in it (such as the trading room) would have helped attract more companies in the financial services sector to Waterford.
2. Nobody in this thread or any other thinks that every county should have a University - but that there should be at least one in every major region (the south east being one currently unserved by one).
3. 15 years ago is a long time. A lot of things in WIT have changed since then.

looksee

letsbet wrote: »

Wow some really "interesting" points there.
1. I thought when you started off talking about employment blows you were on the right track. The construction of this new building would have created jobs

True, some short term jobs, assuming a local firm got the contract.

and some of the rooms in it (such as the trading room) would have helped attract more companies in the financial services sector to Waterford.

Again true, but would the cost of building have been offset by jobs in these companies? As someone else said, there are any number of empty buildings around Waterford that could be used.

2. Nobody in this thread or any other thinks that every county should have a University - but that there should be at least one in every major region (the south east being one currently unserved by one).

ok, hyperbole on my part. However I am not saying it should never happen, just that, given current circumstances, its whinging to be complaining about delay on new buildings for an IT that has had a lot of investment in good times.

3. 15 years ago is a long time. A lot of things in WIT have changed since then.

Also true, but has admin changed for the better?

letsbet

The admin has improved quite a lot but has a bit to go but it's a chicken and egg kind of situation imo. There's lots of empty buildings in town alright but not a lot that would be suitable for the purposes planned for these buildings. It's also not a matter of just having nice looking new buildings - the college does not have enough space currently to do what it wants to do.

dayshah

looksee wrote: »

True, some short term jobs, assuming a local firm got the contract.

All construction jobs are short term in nature. Is it better to pay people the dole, or get some of them working?

I think the cutbacks in capital spending are very short-sighted. Tender prices are at an all time low, there is no shortage of construction labour, and local businesses could desperately do with the spin off business.

Also it is a myth that we don't have the money for capital investment. We can get matching finance from the EIB (which is not counted as part of the national debt), and of course we can raise taxes to finance the projects.

Smiley Burnett

WE ARE BROKE!!!!

Do any of you recall the mistakes of the 1980's when FG under Garret Fitzgerald wanted to cut back on spending, but labour insisted that we increase taxes and maintain public spending???

HOW DID THAT WORK OUT??

Are ye suggesting that we make the same mistakes and cripple people with taxes in order to close the DEFICIT OF 18 BILLION??

I have no problem with anyone suggesting that we continue to spend, spend, spend; but we need it spelled out that, as an alternative, it is not pretty either!!

looksee

letsbet wrote: »

The admin has improved quite a lot but has a bit to go but it's a chicken and egg kind of situation imo. There's lots of empty buildings in town alright but not a lot that would be suitable for the purposes planned for these buildings.

You don't need 'a lot' you only need one. I

t's also not a matter of just having nice looking new buildings - the college does not have enough space currently to do what it wants to do.

Exactly, same for a lot of other situations.

dayshah wrote: »

All construction jobs are short term in nature. Is it better to pay people the dole, or get some of them working?

Certainly get them working, but will they build new buildings for the cost of the dole? And what about all the other costs? Again, you can apply this argument to any situation, what is so special about two additional buildings for WIT?

I think the cutbacks in capital spending are very short-sighted. Tender prices are at an all time low, there is no shortage of construction labour, and local businesses could desperately do with the spin off business.

Also it is a myth that we don't have the money for capital investment. We can get matching finance from the EIB (which is not counted as part of the national debt), and of course we can raise taxes to finance the projects.[/QUOTE]

I don't doubt taxes will be raised, but why should we pay extra taxes for two additional buildings for WIT? And even if someone does throw in half the cost of an investment project, where is the other half to come from? And why would WIT get it over lots of - say - primary schools that need investment much more urgently.

Again, I am not saying WIT should not be developed, made into a university if that's what is needed, but not right now, we can't afford it, and complaining about it sounds a lot like whinging to me.

dayshah

looksee wrote: »

aised, but why should we pay extra taxes for two additional buildings for WIT? And even if someone does throw in half the cost of an investment project, where is the other half to come from? And why would WIT get it over lots of - say - primary schools that need investment much more urgently.

Well, he dole savings obviously wont fund a building programme. However a €100m programme might only have a net cost of say €50million when you include dole savings, the fact Mortgages are repaid by the home owners rather than the state etc etc. However building the same project in good times is way more expensive. Plus we need capital projects for our long term competitiveness.

Where do we get the other 50%? Well about €3bn is already budgetted for, so use the EIB to double the investment. The EIB will only invest if they are convinced the project has a return.

So WIT or primary schools? I'd prioritise primary schools, but I'm in favour of higher taxes if it secures our long term competitiveness, so we can probably do both.

merlante

So what if we're broke. We won't be broke forever.

And what is the extra cost anyway:
cost of university - cost of IoT = few million a year - increase in economic activity in the south east = possible profit or breakeven kind of scenario.

The original WRTC was worse value for money that today's WIT. You have to ask whether it is cost effective *not* to upgrade it. The situation is not at all clear, since the WIT will be there in the future in any case.

At the end of the day, there are people posting here, who think the south east should suffer significantly in return for the country as a whole having a slightly healthier balance sheet. Basically, Ireland takes a hit in equality in return for a running a slightly leaner operation. These people, aside from being short sighted, have no sense of what a social contract means and by implication are too quick to sacrifice rights on the basis of purely instrumental or financial concerns. If that is the argument, then I personally am not interested in arguing against it -- it's a morally bankrupt position.

The 'one in every town' argument is a straw man. This is a 'there is one in every centre/region except one and we're suffering big time because of it' argument. If people are not willing to discern between the two then what's the point?

HugoBradyBrown

I think that the dream about a University of Waterford has to be put into some kind of rational perspective. This week the plan to create a Technological University for all of Ireland in Grangegorman came crashing down around our ears, needlessly. This will have national, rather than merely regional, repercussions. We are sorry for Waterford, but are inconsolable for Ireland.

Nypd

HugoBradyBrown wrote: »

I think that the dream about a University of Waterford has to be put into some kind of rational perspective. This week the plan to create a Technological University for all of Ireland in Grangegorman came crashing down around our ears, needlessly. This will have national, rather than merely regional, repercussions. We are sorry for Waterford, but are inconsolable for Ireland.

How rational do you need it.
The southeast region is suffering because of how badly Waterford has been hit.

In order to fix part of the " national " problem regional issues need to be addressed.

merlante

HugoBradyBrown wrote: »

I think that the dream about a University of Waterford has to be put into some kind of rational perspective. This week the plan to create a Technological University for all of Ireland in Grangegorman came crashing down around our ears, needlessly. This will have national, rather than merely regional, repercussions. We are sorry for Waterford, but are inconsolable for Ireland.

Well, I mean, how urgent is the consolidation of DIT really? Likewise, how urgent are the WIT buildings that may be put on hold?

The university issue is mainly to do with legal status and a revisiting of the remit rather than money. Certain improvements are ongoing and automatic. For example, in the current climate, the same money should secure better staff on more demanding contracts. Percentages of staff with PhDs have been rising dramatically in recent years. WIT is probably ahead of where DCU and UL were in the 90's. This is not about the 'name' of the institute or 'money', this is about removing roadblocks to natural growth and advancement.

More money will probably be spent on WIT in the future anyway, but then it should have an even greater impact on the regional economy as well. Imho, the money argument is political, in that the existing university sector is worried that their funds will be squeezed by the entrance of a new institute, despite the greater economic dividend that a Waterford upgrade would bring to the regional and therefore national economy. Whilst these fears are real, it is not in itself a good enough reason to block an upgrade if that is an otherwise advisable course of action.

invara

Minister for Education Jan O'Sullivan announced that the capital building programme for higher education would restart last October. 3 new buildings...... 10 million to UL, 7 NUIG, 3 million UCD. WIT got diddly-squat. We have gone to the back of the queue whilst other, strong politicians have muscled their projects up the list.

At the start of the downturn we were told that all capital budgets were gone, but if you look at the exchequer returns they only stopped funding the Institutes of Technology- the universities kept building during the downturn.
(boards will not allow me to link to the site... it is on the hea website, 2013 annual report)

You might say that these were funding commitments entered into before the slow down, but curious that only the universities had such open commitments.

The South East, Waterford and WIT getting shafted again.

Adyx

Since I first went to WIT in 1999, a new library, IT building, nursing building and tourism & leisure building have been added along with the upgrading of the building where the library was previously. There are a huge amount of rooms that spend most, if not all day empty and unused except as a dump for old furniture. More buildings aren't needed. What is needed is the upgrading and development of the older or unused parts into modern usable rooms.

wellboytoo

AFAIK WIT got the money to finish the sports hall/ Conference hall in Carriganore in the last couple of months

invara

Adyx wrote: »

Since I first went to WIT in 1999, a new library, IT building, nursing building and tourism & leisure building have been added along with the upgrading of the building where the library was previously. There are a huge amount of rooms that spend most, if not all day empty and unused except as a dump for old furniture. More buildings aren't needed. What is needed is the upgrading and development of the older or unused parts into modern usable rooms.

All these buildings you mentioned were planned before 2000 and delivered soon after. WIT has doubled in size since then. Room utilisation rates during office hours are close to 100%, and it is impossible to reschedule a class because of this. Research active faculty should have single person offices or access to meeting rooms, but they usually do supervision meetings in coffee shops. You are right that lots of teaching spaces are not suitable, but they are still very much used. We recently restored a 30 year old prefab building (the old T block, no called the FTG block). Visit UL, UCC, UCD or even some of the quieter IoTs and you will see just how under resourced WIT is. I cannot understand why the state treats my students worse than those from other places.

run_Forrest_run

invara wrote: »

All these buildings you mentioned were planned before 2000 and delivered soon after. WIT has doubled in size since then. Room utilisation rates during office hours are close to 100%, and it is impossible to reschedule a class because of this. Research active faculty should have single person offices or access to meeting rooms, but they usually do supervision meetings in coffee shops. You are right that lots of teaching spaces are not suitable, but they are still very much used. We recently restored a 30 year old prefab building (the old T block, no called the FTG block). Visit UL, UCC, UCD or even some of the quieter IoTs and you will see just how under resourced WIT is. I cannot understand why the state treats my students worse than those from other places.

why is the college enrolling that many students then if it can't facilitate them properly?

Adyx

invara wrote: »

All these buildings you mentioned were planned before 2000 and delivered soon after. WIT has doubled in size since then. Room utilisation rates during office hours are close to 100%, and it is impossible to reschedule a class because of this. Research active faculty should have single person offices or access to meeting rooms, but they usually do supervision meetings in coffee shops. You are right that lots of teaching spaces are not suitable, but they are still very much used. We recently restored a 30 year old prefab building (the old T block, no called the FTG block). Visit UL, UCC, UCD or even some of the quieter IoTs and you will see just how under resourced WIT is. I cannot understand why the state treats my students worse than those from other places.

The T & L building is six years old. The C block often has empty rooms as does the W and FTG block. Is the R block even used for classes any more? A lot of the C and W rooms need tidying up but that would be a more economical and faster prospect than building entirely new blocks. Where would these new buildings even go? I'm not denying WIT is under-resourced compared to the likes of the colleges you mentioned, I just think there is a better way than throwing new buildings at the problem.

invara

Good points.

Run Forest Run..... there is huge demand for higher education and WIT has to respond to the needs of the region. All this pushes us to expand and hope that we get the resources eventually. The game is judge how full we can get before people go nuts.

Adyx... I am just stirring the pot. reminding everyone that the cancelled buildings are not coming back anytime soon, when other regions (with less need) are starting to be looked after.

Adyx

invara wrote: »

Good points.

Run Forest Run..... there is huge demand for higher education and WIT has to respond to the needs of the region. All this pushes us to expand and hope that we get the resources eventually. The game is judge how full we can get before people go nuts.

Adyx... I am just stirring the pot. reminding everyone that the cancelled buildings are not coming back anytime soon, when other regions (with less need) are starting to be looked after.

That's fair enough and drawing attention to WIT's needs is a worthwhile cause. In the future I hope there will be a need for additional building and when that arises I hope it can be fulfilled. At the moment though I believe that when it comes to actual buildings, WIT has been looked after. I'm a current mature student in WIT myself and I've seen so many improvements in the last 15 years but there's always room for more.

7upfree

Sully wrote: »

Not really. The government has made a significant amount of pauses on projects today. We don't have the money. Everybody has to take a cut, and WIT isn't the only college to get a bit of a knock. This has been the writing on the wall since the recession kicked in - cut backs and savings would be made and many projects would be put on hold.

WIT and DIT are probably the most modern of the ITs, and WIT has received a fair amount of funding over the years so hasn't been totally ignored and has benefited a lot.

Shafted is a very unfair statement.

You made that statement in 2011. And fast forward to 2015.............shafted was actually an understatement.

7upfree

7upfree wrote: »

You made that statement in 2011. And fast forward to 2015.............shafted was actually an understatement.

*tumbleweed........:D

Digital Society

run_Forrest_run wrote: »

why is the college enrolling that many students then if it can't facilitate them properly?

If your child was turned down a college place just so they can have a bit more leeway with free classes would you be happy?

How could you possibly think its a bad thing that they push it to the limits to accommodate everybody they can? You would prefer they left classes empty would you?

invara

In the indo today, Trinity is starting to build a 'world class business school' which will cost €32m. Whole investment is €138m, half from govt, and half from government organised European Investment Bank Loan (of €70m) which the govt will pay back. (Boards will not allow me to post the URL to the indo story)

That kind of money buys a lot of granite, WIT's cancelled Business School building was to cost less than €7 million, one tenth. Well played Dublin, bravo.

invara

Since my last post here in 2015....... there has been around €1bn spent on the 7 universities capital programmes. That is around 35 buildings in our 7 universities. Ribbon cutting after ribbon cutting.

Ziltch in WIT, bought to you by the people who think the TU will be transformative in some magical unicorn type way.

91wx763

invara wrote: »

Since my last post here in 2015....... there has been around €1bn has been spent on the 7 universities capital programmes. That is around 35 buildings in our 7 universities. Ribbon cutting after ribbon cutting.

Ziltch in WIT, bought to you by the people who think the TU will be transformative in some magical unicorn type way.

You are completely correct.

Funny how Sully's posts have disappeared except when quoted......

I have been here before

Originally Posted by Sully View Post
Not really. The government has made a significant amount of pauses on projects today. We don't have the money. Everybody has to take a cut, and WIT isn't the only college to get a bit of a knock. This has been the writing on the wall since the recession kicked in - cut backs and savings would be made and many projects would be put on hold.

WIT and DIT are probably the most modern of the ITs, and WIT has received a fair amount of funding over the years so hasn't been totally ignored and has benefited a lot.

Shafted is a very unfair statement.

Ho hum.

azimuth17

Am new to this, but that Sully poster must have been a Fine Gael supporter? In the meantime have DIT not moved to anew place in Grangegorman where all their new campus is being built. Did I read they were investing €1 billion on the site there? Any sign of new buildings for WIT?

mooseknunkle

91wx763 wrote: »

You are completely correct.

Funny how Sully's posts have disappeared except when quoted......

I have been here before



Ho hum.

They haven't disappeared that post is on the first page

taytobreath

azimuth17 wrote: »

Am new to this, but that Sully poster must have been a Fine Gael supporter? In the meantime have DIT not moved to anew place in Grangegorman where all their new campus is being built. Did I read they were investing €1 billion on the site there? Any sign of new buildings for WIT?

Ground works for the new engineering building started a few weeks back

invara

ehhh... no they did not. Trinity's 80m school of business opened last week, UCC bought another downtown site for a 2nd new business school (executive one is now open, this is an undergrad one).. but WIT's cancelled PPP is still firmly mothballed 8 years later (and one economic boom).

There were some measurements taken on the site to facilitate bidders for the PPP, but the site was still a bare patch of land with rusting temporary fencing.

To get this PPP away, WIT will have to give up the college st campus and so this new building will not facilitate any growth. It is the only capital project in the pipeline (so only building until 2025 by my reckoning)...