prong collars?

portgirl123

are prong collars allowed? was in a certain pet shop today. not a big chain, just a small independant one. i pop in ever now and then cos they have a few different things in. was actually shocked to see one, as ive heard about them but never actually sen them. how in gods name can people who say they love their dog use them. i will not be back in this shop again

Sigma Force

They're horrible looking things, and it's not against the law to sell them or choke chains..you're right anyone who truly understands their dog or at least cares even a bit won't use them. Stupid pet shops..I would avoid any pet shop that sells them don't give them your custom, hit it where it hurts in their pocket because they won't listen if you complain they think they know it all.

caseyann

Sigma Force wrote: »

They're horrible looking things, and it's not against the law to sell them or choke chains..you're right anyone who truly understands their dog or at least cares even a bit won't use them. Stupid pet shops..I would avoid any pet shop that sells them don't give them your custom, hit it where it hurts in their pocket because they won't listen if you complain they think they know it all.

Why drag choke chains in to this If a human is dumb enough to not be able to use a choker properly then yes the shouldnt have them.If you know how to use it properly then no they are not like a prong collar at all.


Op they should be against the law but no law brought in as they werent that big here.Now looks like someone is making them available and no one is stopping it.
I havent seen anyone use them on their dog luckily so far.

Whispered

Some people see the choke and the prong collar as doing similar things, controlling the dog using pain and anticipation of pain.

Training wise, they both work on the exact same principle.

No it's not illegal to sell them, unfortunately. When I was in spain last month I couldn't get over the amount of dogs on prong collars, it seemed every second dog. Thankfully they seem to be frowned upon a bit more here.

Sigma Force

Some people see the choke and the prong collar as doing similar things, controlling the dog using pain and anticipation of pain.

Exactly.

Zapperzy

I have seen a few dogs coming into the vets wearing prong collars, seems to be mostly non-irish people with them though.

caseyann

Zapperzy wrote: »

I have seen a few dogs coming into the vets wearing prong collars, seems to be mostly non-irish people with them though.

Really what type of dogs are they using them on?
I havent seen any at all.

Zapperzy

caseyann wrote: »

Really what type of dogs are they using them on?
I havent seen any at all.

Mostly big dogs, I have seen them on german shepherds, rottweilers and american bulldogs. And they didn't have those little caps to cover the ends on either.

caseyann

Zapperzy wrote: »

Mostly big dogs, I have seen them on german shepherds, rottweilers and american bulldogs. And they didn't have those little caps to cover the ends on either.

Thats awful Should stick on their own necks and pull and jerk it a few times.
I am happy to say havent come across them at all.
Where are you located country or city?

caseyann

Whispered wrote: »

Some people see the choke and the prong collar as doing similar things, controlling the dog using pain and anticipation of pain.

Training wise, they both work on the exact same principle.

No it's not illegal to sell them, unfortunately. When I was in spain last month I couldn't get over the amount of dogs on prong collars, it seemed every second dog. Thankfully they seem to be frowned upon a bit more here.

I dont believe they do as worked with them many a time and not so much as touch on the neck i had to make to get the dog stand to heel.All i need to was make the noise with the choker.But everyone to their own.

Yeah i couldnt imagine anyone i know putting one on their dogs.

Zapperzy

caseyann wrote: »

Thats awful Should stick on their own necks and pull and jerk it a few times.
I am happy to say havent come across them at all.
Where are you located country or city?

Iv worked in a few different practices mostly rural practices and 1 kind of semi-urban practice. I would expect to see them more in city practices really but have seen a few in more rural areas but again it seems to be mostly american or eastern european owners with them.

Whispered

caseyann wrote: »

I dont believe they do as worked with them many a time and not so much as touch on the neck i had to make to get the dog stand to heel.All i need to was make the noise with the choker.But everyone to their own.

I think you misunderstand me, the fact that they work on the same principle wasn't me stating an opinion. They both work on the idea of positive punishment, so that's what I meant by them working on the same principle. I wasn't expressing an opinion on them either way.

How did the dog (or dogs) you've worked with know to heel for the noise if the noise wasn't associated with something?

The Sweeper

Interesting. Have spoken to some trainers of problem dogs down here who use prong collars. They are supporters of the collars used by professionals, correctly, when dealing with the sort of dog that is more difficult to control.

I know one account of an alaskan malamute that was so uncontrollable and reactive he was set for the green dream. His owner had tried a number of trainers (some of whome recommended euthanasia) and eventually enlisted the assistance of a professional training outfit and they agreed to use a prong collar. The collar was used for 12 weeks. The dog is now a fully obedience trained, registered therapy dog. The trainers have stated that they could have achieved a similar effect without using the collar, however given the situation - highly reactive dog and emotionally and physically exhausted owner, euthanasia pending, time, money, energy, motivation - the need for a more immediate result meant they agreed to demonstrate the use of the collar to the owner. The dog has never used the collar since.

I believe the logic is that a correction should never, ever be issued when a prong collar is on a dog - you don't pull the leash. The collar prevents the dog from pulling, essentially causing a self-correction if the dog tries to pull or lunge.

Prong collars should not be sharp or capable of tearing or puncturing skin. I found it very interesting to have a discussion with someone who's a highly regarded trainer who will use a prong collar if he deems it necessary, and has indeed put one around his own neck so he understands exactly what the sensation of use is.

Trainers who use prong collars with reactive dogs are fighting to prevent them being banned here because they believe they're as useful a tool as a flat collar, a head collar, or a choke chain - and indeed they claim that the damage you can do to a dog through misuse of a flat collar, head collar or choke chain is similar to the damage you could do with a prong collar if you were to misuse it.

This begs the question of how to legislate pet 'tools' to ensure they are only ever used properly and in expert hands.

(PS: just putting it out there, not advocating!)

Whispered

I was gong to say earlier that I read somewhere that some trainers feel that choke collars actually cause worse damage in the long run than prong collars, but I couldn't find the website again so I didn't want to quote from what might not be a reliable place.

kildare.17hmr

caseyann wrote: »

Thats awful Should stick on their own necks and pull and jerk it a few times.
I am happy to say havent come across them at all.
Where are you located country or city?

I use a remote one on one of my dogs and it works well. I used it on myself first and it does not hurt, it gets his attention in the field when he is far away from me and wont listen

caseyann

kildare.17hmr wrote: »

I use a remote one on one of my dogs and it works well. I used it on myself first and it does not hurt, it gets his attention in the field when he is far away from me and wont listen

Remote prong collar?

kildare.17hmr

caseyann wrote: »

Remote prong collar?

Remote shock collar... late night

caseyann

Whispered wrote: »

I think you misunderstand me, the fact that they work on the same principle wasn't me stating an opinion. They both work on the idea of positive punishment, so that's what I meant by them working on the same principle. I wasn't expressing an opinion on them either way.

How did the dog (or dogs) you've worked with know to heel for the noise if the noise wasn't associated with something?

The noise was associated with a movement on the collar and a click sound with the chain pulled,did not allow it to tighten on the dogs neck.And would you believe i called heel.
If you dont know how to use one then i agree dont use it.
I happen to know how to use it and when it has done its job i dont use anymore.I dont agree with it being used for dogs when they continuously pull.

caseyann

kildare.17hmr wrote: »

Remote shock collar... late night

Oh i have no idea about them have never come across them either here.
I must actually check them out and stick on my own arm see how i feel.

I use the clicker and the whistle for recall.But most of my dogs if they get ahead of me i just have to call stay and they do.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_T9qiGCq5sk
If it is like that i could never see myself putting it on one of my dogs.

kildare.17hmr

This is the one i have http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w0mhKr69KhE

caseyann

kildare.17hmr wrote: »

This is the one i have http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w0mhKr69KhE

Its up to you kildare.17hmr..I personally would'nt use it or the prong collar.

andreac

kildare.17hmr wrote: »

This is the one i have http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w0mhKr69KhE

Its worth noting, the video doesnt show this horrible contraption actually working, wonder why...

All shock collars are cruel, anything that gives a dog a shock is cruel and how anyone can think its not is beyond me. Even the name Shock Collar is enough.

kildare.17hmr

i Didnt watch the video i just typed the name in and it was the first one that came up

DBB

kildare.17hmr wrote: »

i Didnt watch the video i just typed the name in and it was the first one that came up

I can't help but think kildare is taking the mick now, knowing how previous posts re shock collars and choke chains have gone! Looking for a reaction are you, kildare?!
I think i'll negatively punish you now and ignore you, putting your bad behaviour on an extinction curve!

I've also come across the comment that prong collars are less harmful than choke chains, I think because they don't tighten, noose-like, the way a choke chain does. They have a martingale mechanism, like a half-choke collar does.
That said, it's all relative, isn't it? Both work on the principle of negative reinforcement and positive punishment, which are generally not necessary when a bit of thought is put into using less risky and potentially harmful techniques.

lrushe

Both my Rottie and Spitz wear choke chains. I don't usually use them on a dog until they are over 6 months old by which stage my dogs are already well mannered on a leash and don't pull. I use choke chains because they are cheap, long lasting, grow with the dog and as my dog don't pull they are really loose and forgiving on their throat. The choke chain my Rottie wears used to belong to my deceased German Shephard and I bought it in 1994 for about £4 and it's still going

kildare.17hmr

DBB wrote: »

I can't help but think kildare is taking the mick now, knowing how previous posts re shock collars and choke chains have gone! Looking for a reaction are you, kildare?!
I think i'll negatively punish you now and ignore you, putting your bad behaviour on an extinction curve!.

Why the hell would i be taking the mick? Thats the exact system i have! can you show me another post of mine where im taking the mick about shock collars or choke chains, DBB.

I use both and rate them highly, i have different opinions than you so you take that as me taking the mick?

Take your condisending attitude somewhere else

Is this link better for you then??
http://www.amazon.com/SportDOG-SportHunter-Remote-Trainer-SD-800/dp/B000FETSY0
same thing

DBB

kildare.17hmr wrote: »

Why the hell would i be taking the mick? Thats the exact system i have! can you show me another post of mine where im taking the mick about shock collars or choke chains, DBB.

Take your condisending attitude somewhere else

Err, I'm not being condescending at all kildare.17hornady magnum rimfire:p.
It's just, to the innocent bystander, your regular introduction of dog training themes that you know will inflame people makes one wonder are you doing it on purpose, that's all. It is from that perspective that I can help but think you're being somewhat mick-taking when you post such things.

So, your dog is off at a distance from you, and his recall isn't 100%. So, you give him a random shock out of nowhere to "get his attention"?
I heard of someone once who used to do that, but I couldn't believe someone would think that's acceptable from a training perspective. Mind you, I was a bit idealistic at the time and know now that there are a lot of really bizarre ways people have of getting their dogs to do what they want, even if it means lack of real consideration into what consequences their actions could have.
I find it odd that people do these things, when it's not necessary. I worked with a field trials competitor locally here who wanted to get away from the shooting fraternity's obsession with shock collars and other rather questionable techniques. He worked really hard on understanding how to train his dogs positively, and in the heel of the hunt, that guy started cleaning up in competition, because his dogs had a totally different outlook and attitude to work than the "traditionally" trained competitors. They are more confident, have more initiative, and don't fall apart if they do make a mistake.
As a result, more people around here started to question how they trained their field trials and rough-shooting dogs, because this guy showed them that a positive approach works a lot better on many different levels. They had laughed at him at first, but the mounting success kinda wiped the grins off their faces, quite frankly.
My point is, I have not yet had a single person, ever, who has been able to justify why they should use a shock collar, or a choke chain, or a prong collar, over a more positive and ethical approach.
I've a fair idea why people keep insisting on using shock collars and choke chains (I'll not express that opinion here as some people really won't want to hear it), but I've yet to hear adequate justification.
Anyone care to step up to the mark?:)

Bullseye1

Dreadful looking things. I'd never use them. It's obvious your doing something wrong if you have to employ one of those collars.

ppink

caseyann wrote: »

I must actually check them out and stick on my own arm see how i feel.

.

Tis round the neck they go.

maybe kildare would give us a demo on her/his neck:)