Student protest to stop fee increases and protect the grant

FinnLizzy

Jaysus, the bitterness is 90 on this thread.

The people who I'd be worried about are the families who earn slightly too much to avail of the full grant.

Seren_

SugarCoat wrote: »

I know some of you may be be angry at me for suggesting this but...What if the every university student paid an extra €1000 and every IT student pay an extra €500?The universities generally have students from more privilaged backgrounds and the costs are far far greater than the ITs for things like upkeep of the building,lecturer's pay etc.While the ITs are generally low cost and sustainable.

I see where you're coming from, but just because someone attends a university does not necessarily mean they are from a more privileged background (I know you said generally, but I'm just pointing this out for the thread ). People decide to apply to a university or IT depending on what course they are interested in. I'm from a working class background, but I wanted to study arts (awaiting the haters :pac:) and I couldn't study that in the IT near where I live, although it would have made things a lot easier financially if I had have been able to.

steve_kav wrote: »

I cant speak for other colleges but we have a massive campaign in LIT to get people to go.

It's the same here in Maynooth, the place is literally covered in posters.

FinnLizzy wrote: »

Jaysus, the bitterness is 90 on this thread.

The people who I'd be worried about are the families who earn slightly too much to avail of the full grant.

I would also be worried about people from such families, especially since the grant awarding authorities are so rigid re: the payment levels i.e. even if you are only €2 over the limit you won't get a grant (this happened to someone I know).

This march is extremely important and as many people as possible need to attend, no matter what are your views on your SU/the USI. It's not them who want to bring in fees. And yes, I know the country's finances are in dire straits. But is there not other places money can be cut from? We could start with cutting the pay of some heads of state bodies and politicians, some of who's salaries are scandalous in the current climate. Increasing education funding is one of the best ways to get out of recession.

saa

Protect the grant, free fee's but for fewers people, I'm sorry but not everyone can be paid by the tax payer to attend college, I want it to but I don't believe it can happen for those coming from families or under 23 coming to college alone financially should be protected.

I would love to see everyone being able to attend but its not feisable, its either less people go with a sustainable amount to live on or the same number and many more people fall into trouble.

But then there is also the issue if we are not paying for these young people to go to college are we instead paying for their dole?

Seren_

saa wrote: »

But then there is also the issue if we are not paying for these young people to go to college are we instead paying for their dole?

Exactly. It's not as if it's easy to get a job these days, especially if you don't have some sort of higher education. It would probably work out cheaper for the tazpayer fo fund 3 years of a degree course than it would to fund 3 years of dole payments for someone, as well as the other social welfare payments one can get whilst unemployed (medical card, rent allowance etc).

CreepingDeath

steve_kav wrote: »

Fact: Graduates on average pay 70% more tax over there their working lives than non-graduates.

No it isn't.
Those that immediately emigrate pay nothing.

Maybe there should be a claw-back clause, those who emigrate have to pay the total cost of the course.
We shouldn't be training up people for other countries.

facemelter

Students seem to believe that they have a right to a college education , a lot of people in the past didn't get one due to financial constraints and now students want the people to pay for theirs !!! madness ( and I'm a student !!:eek: ) A college degree is an investment and I see students everyday pissing it away !! , Im in a small course and so when people are absent it noticeable , and most people in my course would only come in for several lectures a day and would be at home or in bed for the rest !! , my parents pay my fees and I do appreciate it greatly , thats why I feel I have to do my best because I try not to take it for granted ! ( and in case there are any gramatical errors , no i'm not studying English :P )

sensibleken

facemelter wrote: »

Students seem to believe that they have a right to a college education , a lot of people in the past didn't get one due to financial constraints and now students want the people to pay for theirs !!! madness ( and I'm a student !!:eek: ) A college degree is an investment and I see students everyday pissing it away !! , Im in a small course and so when people are absent it noticeable , and most people in my course would only come in for several lectures a day and would be at home or in bed for the rest !! , my parents pay my fees and I do appreciate it greatly , thats why I feel I have to do my best because I try not to take it for granted ! ( and in case there are any gramatical errors , no i'm not studying English :P )

I got a college education paid for by the tax payer and i expect to pay for the next generations through my taxes. An educated populace is benificial for all of society, its not just about personal advancement

Anita Blow

Jesus the generalisations in this thread are amazing. I love being referred to as a wanker just because I'm getting a "free" 3rd Level education like anyone who's gone to college in the past 15 years.
I worked my ass off to get into my course. I'm not rich or poor but my parents have enough to get me through college now. If there is €5000 fees then I really can't see how I can continue. I don't go out every night of the week like some know-it-alls here like to assume. Infact the ironic thing is that those who don't do much in college and go out every night, are the ones who can well afford to stay in college. They're the ones with the money to be going to clubs multiple nights a week.
Convenient for those who've already gotten their free college education to preach about the need for fees from their high horse. We spend something like €1.6 billion on college education every year. Surely that's the best investment we can make?

Haelium

I think we should have a system whereby you must pay back the cost of your college education if you emmigrate. Graduates who stay in the country to work here are productive members of society who benefit everybody in the country, punishing them for being educated is just pointless.

Haelium

I plan to study either computer science or engineering. From what my friends have told me, I'll be in college 9-5 most days and won't have time for partying.

I get the feeling that many people in this thread have a view of college generated from watching American movies.

Mr Benevolent

Meh, students can pay their own damn fees like every other European with an interest in third level.

hatrickpatrick

Confab wrote: »

Meh, students can pay their own damn fees like every other European with an interest in third level.

Most other Europeans aren't living in a rip off republic where rents and food prices resemble the average asking price for modern ballistic missiles.

Fishooks12

Haelium wrote: »

I plan to study either computer science or engineering. From what my friends have told me, I'll be in college 9-5 most days and won't have time for partying.

I get the feeling that many people in this thread have a view of college generated from watching American movies.

Or the negative press some students get during events like rag week, but that's a problem reflected across Irish society as a whole, just look at any town at 2am on a Saturday night

Most of the student bashers on here seem to be very bitter and feel the need to try and belittle and stereotype us.

Duke Leonal Felmet

I'm going to take a punt.

This protest will achieve nothing.

Fishooks12

Confab wrote: »

Meh, students can pay their own damn fees like every other European with an interest in third level.

Ever hear of free education?

Not to mention that it's costing up to 10k a year already without "fees"

hatrickpatrick

steve_kav wrote: »

I cant speak for other colleges but we have a massive campaign in LIT to get people to go.

I would have expected more use of social media is all. Last year's "education not emigration" protest had a massive viral tweet hashtag campaign and everyone supporting it changed their profile photos on Facebook, there were t shirts, and so on. Haven't seen any of that this year.

I'm in quite a small college though (the new BIMM in Francis Street) so maybe it hasn't got that far yet.

Haelium

Confab wrote: »

Meh, students can pay their own damn fees like every other European with an interest in third level.

But most European countries do not charge students fees.

hatrickpatrick

Fishooks12 wrote: »

Most of the student bashers on here seem to be very bitter and feel the need to try and belittle and stereotype us.

It's the same crowd which attacks any protest or dissent movement. I bet you anything if you checked, the same people bashing this are also bashing OWS in other threads, and various boycotts in others.

I've said it before: If it was up to THIS generation of Irish people to liberate us from the Brits, it wouldn't happen. The few brave people who stood up to the empire would be laughed at with bollocks like "get a job and get on with it" or "you're only making us look bad" etc etc etc.

On the other hand, Boards.ie has an incredibly cynical, conformist general population who tend to oppose any opposition to authority, so these threads probably aren't representative of anything really.

Anita Blow

Confab wrote: »

Meh, students can pay their own damn fees like every other European with an interest in third level.

Ireland has the 2nd highest tuition fees in Europe.

Other European countries which don't charge tuition fees:
Austria
Finland
Czech Republic
Denmark
Greece
Hungary
Iceland
Luxembourg
Norway
Slovenia
Sweden
http://www.studyineurope.eu/tuition-fees
France and Germany have tuition fees of around €500 a year and Netherlands charges €1200-€2200. So I suppose now we shouldn't be like every other European with an interest in 3rd level education? In that case we'd actually be reducing the reg fee.

Fishooks12

Anita Blow wrote: »

Ireland has the 2nd highest tuition fees in Europe.

Other European countries which don't charge tuition fees:
Austria
Finland
Czech Republic
Denmark
Greece
Hungary
Iceland
Luxembourg
Norway
Slovenia
Sweden
http://www.studyineurope.eu/tuition-fees
France and Germany have tuition fees of around €500 a year and Netherlands charges €1200-€2200. So I suppose now we shouldn't be like every other European with an interest in 3rd level education? In that case we'd actually be reducing the reg fee.

+1

Nothing like seeing the ignorance of an ignorant post pointed out

banquo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_5ER2jn64s8

tatabubbly

Okay, f everyone but here it goes.

I went to college 2005-2009. I got the higher rate of maintance grant and got my fees paid for. I needed every single cent of that money. As a science student, we didn't get to fart off, party and not turn up to class because the bottom line was you wouldn't pass your exams. I watched people party away but it wasn't anyone who got the grant, it was useless feckers who had their parents pay for everything!

Not everyone can afford the luxury of third level education and setting up a student loan solution would be ok if they were any actual jobs out there! I know without it, I would have never got my qualification..

Seren_

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

I would have expected more use of social media is all. Last year's "education not emigration" protest had a massive viral tweet hashtag campaign and everyone supporting it changed their profile photos on Facebook, there were t shirts, and so on. Haven't seen any of that this year.

I'm in quite a small college though (the new BIMM in Francis Street) so maybe it hasn't got that far yet.

All of that is happening in some colleges. I already have my tshirt :pac: If you haven't seen in your college, start up the advertising yourself if you have the time

Seren_

Your Text Here wrote: »

All of that is happening in some colleges. I already have my tshirt :pac: If you haven't seen in your college, start up the advertising yourself if you have the time

And people should also remember that some of the countries with lower tuition fees than Ireland are in a similar financial situation to us. Why aren't they cutting their education budgets if that's apparently the way forward?

This is also not just about third level education (although that is what we're marching about). The government should stop education cuts across all levels. There are students out there who aren't getting the help they need due to their resource hours being cut (as a person with a disability, I received a large amount of resource teaching in secondary school - I can guarantee I wouldn't be in college if it weren't for the help I got). Teachers are having to attempt to teach classes with more than 30 people in them, how is that supposed to work? There are a million other ways that this country's spending could be cut if only the government copped on and had a bit of initiative about it.

southsiderosie

Anita Blow wrote: »

Ireland has the 2nd highest tuition fees in Europe.

Other European countries which don't charge tuition fees:
Austria
Finland
Czech Republic
Denmark
Greece
Hungary
Iceland
Luxembourg
Norway
Slovenia
Sweden
http://www.studyineurope.eu/tuition-fees
France and Germany have tuition fees of around €500 a year and Netherlands charges €1200-€2200. So I suppose now we shouldn't be like every other European with an interest in 3rd level education? In that case we'd actually be reducing the reg fee.

And very few of those universities are internationally ranked, especially in comparison to the UK, US, and Asian institutions.

Broadly speaking, you can have a system that basically admits most people who want to go and pays for everyone but is mediocre (Europe in general). You can have a system that is top notch, but extraordinarily expensive and puts the burden on the individual student (the US). Or you can have a system where the government heavily subsidizes the cost, but access is restricted to the very top students and/or there are strictly enforced public service requirements tied to government grants (Asia).

Irish investors want a low-tax US/UK style economy, but voters want Nordic-style benefits, and politicians dream of a Singapore-style highly skilled export economy. Unfortunately, this schizophrenic approach to economic and social policy has left the Irish with the worst of all worlds, it seems. There needs to be some hard decisions about the future of the country, and they need to be made 1) quickly and 2) in a less piece-meal fashion, because education policy, investment, economic growth, and taxation are all inter-related.

murraykil

Ye might be better off protesting something which ye have a realistic chance of making a change to, such as career guidance in second level, the CAO points system, better support in college for students who are trying but struggling and maybe worst of all, your fellow student who doesn't bother to show up to class and drops out after the last grant payment comes through.

Changing admissions system would cut college drop-out rate

COLLEGE CHOICE: BY NOW the vast majority of the third-level places offered through the Central Applications Office last Monday have been accepted or deferred for a year.

Where student demand is less than anticipated, the remaining places will be offered at lower points, next Thursday, to those next on the list of qualified applicants in round two of the CAO offer process.

Since Tuesday last, those who did not receive a satisfactory offer in round one have been considering the vacant places list; these are offers of places on courses which are still unfilled.

For many – especially those who made something of a mess of their CAO application – this is their sole remaining option.

The case for change

Essentially, students are selecting third-level courses that they did not consider in the first instance. Is this in the long-term interests of either the students in question or the labour market they will eventually enter?

Because of this difficulty, I support the call by this newspaper’s Education Editor Seán Flynn for radical change of the CAO process to allow students to amend their CAO record following the publication of the Leaving Cert results.

This process would have to be managed very carefully. There would have to be a “cooling off” period of two days after the exam results are published to allow students take stock.

It should then be possible for them to make amendments to their CAO record over that weekend, taking into account their actual exam results.

College admissions officers could meet at the CAO offices on the Friday after publication of the Leaving Certificate results. They could assess the number of places to offer on each course. With that information in hand – and the amendments made to students’ applications, which could close at midnight on the Sunday – the CAO could process the offers on the Monday and issue offers to students on Tuesday or Wednesday. Given the vast majority of students accept their places online, there is ample time to complete this process by the existing acceptance date, which is 5.15pm the following Monday.

Objectors who claim that giving students a choice to amend their application record after getting their Leaving Cert results would lead to unsuitable choices are underestimating students.

Most students leaving school today have the right to vote and engage in determining who governs us and what policies they should implement. Surely after a few days’ reflection we can trust them to decide the most appropriate college course to select in light of their actual examination results?

If we implemented this change to our admissions system, we would see fewer drop-outs from college in first year, resulting in major savings for families and the Department of Education.

Non-CAO options:

Enrolment on Post Leaving Cert (PLC) courses in CDVEC are continuing, and not many places remain. Traditional courses in media, business studies and childcare are still popular, and there is an increasing interest in pre-nursing courses. There has been a resurgence in demand for Repeat Leaving Certificate places, and this opportunity is now available in Ringsend Technical Institute. There are still some places on new PLC courses in enterprise and business studies in Ringsend and in Coláiste Éanna, Cabra. Those interested should contact their local VEC college directly, see www.cdvec.ie or call freephone 1800-244080 to get advice on specific courses.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2011/0826/1224303005572.html

Shock at high college dropout rate
By Niall Murray Education Correspondent
Friday, October 29, 2010
ALMOST one-in-three students at a Dublin college dropped out before reaching second-year — shocking new figures reveal.
Institute of Technology Tallaght’s services courses (such as tourism, hospitality, sports and leisure courses) saw less than half of students progress to second year.

It is one of 11 institutes (IoTs) where less than four-in-five entrants made it beyond first year, while computer science programmes at six IoTs saw at least one-third of first years dropping out.

The Higher Education Authority (HEA) figures show that 22% of those who started all courses at IoTs in 2007 never made it to second year. In sharp contrast, an average dropout rate of just 9% was recorded in the universities — the lowest was 8% at Trinity College Dublin — and between 3% and 5% failed to progress beyond their first year at teacher-training colleges.

The HEA study also shows that almost one-in-six students leave all third-level courses before second year, with lower Leaving Certificate performance being the strongest link to early dropout. However, factors such as social background — which already discriminates against students from poorer families — also impact strongly, while men are slightly more likely to drop out than women.

HEA chief executive Tom Boland stressed that, while the universities may see more students complete courses, many of the IoTs are doing very well with the cohort of students they cater for.

"Many of them have a lot more males and people from working-class backgrounds, and also tend to admit students with lower Leaving Certificate points, so, in some cases, they may be doing better to keep them, even if the numbers are smaller," he said.

With engineering programmes in the IoTs also found to have high dropout rates — 21% to 34% except for 7% at IT Tralee — the data raises further questions about the suitability of students selected for entry to the high-stakes courses aimed at boosting Ireland’s knowledge economy.

Royal Irish Academy president Nicholas Canny said it is essential the students’ interest be ignited and sustained by exposure to the best teachers and researchers in science, technology and engineering in the critical first year of college.

Dr Vincent Tinto, an expert on third-level retention from Syracuse University in New York, told a conference in Dublin that students are more likely to succeed in environments that expect them to succeed and where they are regularly assessed. He outlined measures taken by US colleges, including strong financial, academic and social supports.

"They do so in a variety of ways from summer bridge programmes that help students make the transition to the first year of university, freshman seminars and academic support programmes, to mentoring, counselling and advising services," Dr Tinto said.

Many US colleges use early-warning systems to identify poor performance in early exams and urge students to use resources on campus — to address problems before it is too late.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/kfmheyidgbmh/rss2/

Seren_

murraykil wrote: »

Ye might be better off protesting something which ye have a realistic chance of making a change to, such as career guidance in second level, the CAO points system, better support in college for students who are trying but struggling and maybe worst of all, your fellow student who doesn't bother to show up to class and drops out after the last grant payment comes through.

I know I am selectively quoting here, but I just want to say something. It is a tiny minority of students who do this. Yes, sometimes people may not be the best at attending class, but I don't know a single person who actually goes out and spends their entire grant cheque on drink. If you get the grant, you are already going to be struggling to afford college in the first place. The full amount of the maintenance grant (not including the top-up grant for those on extremely low incomes) is €3120. That doesn't event cover many students' rent for the college year, let alone support the apparent lavish lifestyle we all lead.

histories

Would not be against the introduction of 3rd level fees if it was implemented in a way e.g. like in the UK. Ireland has a tendancy to implement policies arseways. My worry would be that they would put through a policy in such a short sighted manner that it completely prevents poor people getting a chance at a better life.

As I said I like the UK system, have it so that you get a loan to cover costs and when you start earning above a certain amount you start paying back. This way people who might have trouble with paying fees are still able to get an education.

At the end of the day you are not entitled (I am stressing this as there are far too many people who seem to think the world owes them every little fu*king thing just because they happened to be born) to anything beyond 2nd level education. If you wish to avail of 3rd level then work and save, apply for loans or grants. And I say that as someone who was raised very close to the breadline.

And while you are not entitled it should not be impossible like e.g. in the States where it can be very hard if you don't have the dosh.

Duke Leonal Felmet

Your Text Here wrote: »

murraykil wrote: »

Ye might be better off protesting something which ye have a realistic chance of making a change to, such as career guidance in second level, the CAO points system, better support in college for students who are trying but struggling and maybe worst of all, your fellow student who doesn't bother to show up to class and drops out after the last grant payment comes through.

I know I am selectively quoting here, but I just want to say something. It is a tiny minority of students who do this. Yes, sometimes people may not be the best at attending class, but I don't know a single person who actually goes out and spends their entire grant cheque on drink. If you get the grant, you are already going to be struggling to afford college in the first place. The full amount of the maintenance grant (not including the top-up grant for those on extremely low incomes) is €3120. That doesn't event cover many students' rent for the college year, let alone support the apparent lavish lifestyle we all lead.

Plenty of students driving cars to college, decked out in the latest Amercrombie & Fitch gear that they just bought from their latest J1 holiday. In my experience, the poor student is the minority, not the other way around. And the taxpayer foots the bill for the fees of these wealthy folk, when they can clearly find the money for luxury goods?

Bollox.

I say bring back full fees, and use some of the vast money saved to support the genuinely poor in attending college by paying their fees, and not the middle class.

Anita Blow

southsiderosie wrote: »

And very few of those universities are internationally ranked, especially in comparison to the UK, US, and Asian institutions.

Broadly speaking, you can have a system that basically admits most people who want to go and pays for everyone but is mediocre (Europe in general). You can have a system that is top notch, but extraordinarily expensive and puts the burden on the individual student (the US). Or you can have a system where the government heavily subsidizes the cost, but access is restricted to the very top students and/or there are strictly enforced public service requirements tied to government grants (Asia).

Irish investors want a low-tax US/UK style economy, but voters want Nordic-style benefits, and politicians dream of a Singapore-style highly skilled export economy. Unfortunately, this schizophrenic approach to economic and social policy has left the Irish with the worst of all worlds, it seems. There needs to be some hard decisions about the future of the country, and they need to be made 1) quickly and 2) in a less piece-meal fashion, because education policy, investment, economic growth, and taxation are all inter-related.

Completely agree. I'd be happy with a medium between the 2. We're already on the expensive-side of tuition fees in Europe, but I really think free, or at least heavily subsidised college is best for us in the long run. We can't be talking about wanting a smart economy, and then restrict college to only those who can afford it. Generally that means those who may be smart enough for courses, may not actually be able to afford them.

To me, the great inequality in this country is against the middle class. Not just in education but in health and other sectors. If fees are introduced, that means that the only people who will be able to go to college are the rich (who can pay for it out of their own pocket) and the poor, who will qualify for grants. Many middle-class families simply won't be able to afford it because of increasing taxes on them and increased costs like mortgages, electricity etc. On paper they don't fall below the income threshold to qualify for grants, but in reality they just have too many costs to afford high tuition fees.

I'd prefer a small reduction in capital budgets for other departments accompanied by greater efficiencies in the DoE to maintain the Reg fee at least around €2000 and to even increase funding. Ireland has shown that it can compete on the world stage. We're in the top 10 for Top 500 Universities per capita.

I wouldn't mind a graduate tax as long as it's ring-fenced specifically for colleges but the government has ruled that out aswell as a loan-system.

Seems obvious to me that more college graduates benefits the country as a whole.

sensibleken

histories wrote: »

Would not be against the introduction of 3rd level fees if it was implemented in a way e.g. like in the UK. Ireland has a tendancy to implement policies arseways. My worry would be that they would put through a policy in such a short sighted manner that it completely prevents poor people getting a chance at a better life.

As I said I like the UK system, have it so that you get a loan to cover costs and when you start earning above a certain amount you start paying back. This way people who might have trouble with paying fees are still able to get an education.

At the end of the day you are not entitled (I am stressing this as there are far too many people who seem to think the world owes them every little fu*king thing just because they happened to be born) to anything beyond 2nd level education. If you wish to avail of 3rd level then work and save, apply for loans or grants. And I say that as someone who was raised very close to the breadline.

And while you are not entitled it should not be impossible like e.g. in the States where it can be very hard if you don't have the dosh.

Why are you not entitled to a third level education but you are entitled to a 2nd level.

histories

I think someone already mentioned that tis basic level education, it is setting you up for the world. College is more specific. If you want to become a doctor or lawyer or scientist than you have to specialise in those things i.e. you go to college and get your degree.

facemelter

sensibleken wrote: »

I got a college education paid for by the tax payer and i expect to pay for the next generations through my taxes. An educated populace is benificial for all of society, its not just about personal advancement

thats a very good point i never even considered ! , i completely forgot that one day i will be paying for someone elses fees !!

Duke Leonal Felmet

histories wrote: »

I think someone already mentioned that tis basic level education, it is setting you up for the world. College is more specific. If you want to become a doctor or lawyer or scientist than you have to specialise in those things i.e. you go to college and get your degree.

Exactly. Next it's people are 'entitled' to a masters. Then they are 'entitled' to a Phd.

But don't you dare tax me a lot when I'm qualified. I'm 'entitled' to my income.

Madness.

Duke Leonal Felmet

facemelter wrote: »

sensibleken wrote: »

I got a college education paid for by the tax payer and i expect to pay for the next generations through my taxes. An educated populace is benificial for all of society, its not just about personal advancement

thats a very good point i never even considered ! , i completely forgot that one day i will be paying for someone elses fees !!

Most people do forget, and demand low income taxes, yet demand free 3rd level education for their kids.

Seren_

Duke Leonal Felmet wrote: »

Plenty of students driving cars to college, decked out in the latest Amercrombie & Fitch gear that they just bought from their latest J1 holiday. In my experience, the poor student is the minority, not the other way around. And the taxpayer foots the bill for the fees of these wealthy folk, when they can clearly find the money for luxury goods?

Bollox.

I say bring back full fees, and use some of the vast money saved to support the genuinely poor in attending college by paying their fees, and not the middle class.

I must say, you seem to see a type of student that I don't tend to see that many of. I must be even blinder than I thought.

If fees were to be re-introduced, which hopefully won't happen, then I do think people who can afford it should obviously have to pay a lot more than those who can't. But we all know that if fees are brought in it won't turn out like that.

sensibleken

histories wrote: »

I think someone already mentioned that tis basic level education, it is setting you up for the world. College is more specific. If you want to become a doctor or lawyer or scientist than you have to specialise in those things i.e. you go to college and get your degree.

Good doctors, lawyers and scientists are essential to society. selecting them from the narrow pot of those who can afford it is not the way to ensure we get what we deserve.

Duke Leonal Felmet

Your Text Here wrote: »

Duke Leonal Felmet wrote: »

Plenty of students driving cars to college, decked out in the latest Amercrombie & Fitch gear that they just bought from their latest J1 holiday. In my experience, the poor student is the minority, not the other way around. And the taxpayer foots the bill for the fees of these wealthy folk, when they can clearly find the money for luxury goods?

Bollox.

I say bring back full fees, and use some of the vast money saved to support the genuinely poor in attending college by paying their fees, and not the middle class.

I must say, you seem to see a type of student that I don't tend to see that many of. I must be even blinder than I thought.

If fees were to be re-introduced, which hopefully won't happen, then I do think people who can afford it should obviously have to pay a lot more than those who can't. But we all know that if fees are brought in it won't turn out like that.

Well you wouldn't see me as I am no longer a student and I am currently subsidising your education now. :-)

What makes you think that the poor would have to pay at all? Do you have any basis for this, other than conjecture? I reckon it is a fairer system, as those who can afford to pay, will pay (perhaps having to make do without the J1 and car, shame) and those who cannot afford will be means tested and have their fees paid for, which I believe was the case before anyway. It's a fair system, and I wager the only reason you object if because you would be one of the middle class students who must pay.

Booooo.

murraykil

Your Text Here wrote: »

I know I am selectively quoting here, but I just want to say something. It is a tiny minority of students who do this. Yes, sometimes people may not be the best at attending class, but I don't know a single person who actually goes out and spends their entire grant cheque on drink. If you get the grant, you are already going to be struggling to afford college in the first place. The full amount of the maintenance grant (not including the top-up grant for those on extremely low incomes) is €3120. That doesn't event cover many students' rent for the college year, let alone support the apparent lavish lifestyle we all lead.

In some colleges a large minority of students do this and if you want to to see students whose main use of the grant is alcohol, check out the queue at your campus ATM's @ midnight on grant payment date! :pac:

Duke Leonal Felmet

sensibleken wrote: »

histories wrote: »

I think someone already mentioned that tis basic level education, it is setting you up for the world. College is more specific. If you want to become a doctor or lawyer or scientist than you have to specialise in those things i.e. you go to college and get your degree.

Good doctors, lawyers and scientists are essential to society. selecting them from the narrow pot of those who can afford it is not the way to ensure we get what we deserve.

Two things.

1) What is wrong with a system which charges the middle class and subsidises the poor?

2) I recall a recent study which show that the free fees scheme has had little effect on social mobility, and has mostly benefitted the middle classes. Assuming that this is true, would you insist on maintaining the current system, or the system described in 1) above?

Seren_

Duke Leonal Felmet wrote: »

Well you wouldn't see me as I am no longer a student and I am currently subsidising your education now. :-)

What makes you think that the poor would have to pay at all? Do you have any basis for this, other than conjecture? I reckon it is a fairer system, as those who can afford to pay, will pay (perhaps having to make do without the J1 and car, shame) and those who cannot afford will be means tested and have their fees paid for, which I believe was the case before anyway. It's a fair system, and I wager the only reason you object if because you would be one of the middle class students who must pay.

Booooo.

As I said earlier in this thread, I'm from a working class background so my family members or I wouldn't have to pay fees anyway if they were brought in.

Yes to be fair what I said is slightly hyperbolic, but I think we would be being pretty naive if we were to assume that if fees are brought in it won't be done in a half-arse manner. Just look at the DoE's recent plans to axe the Junior Cert in three years time with no planning going into it, or their plan to cut the jobs of >1000 teachers.

DB10

Duke Leonal Felmet wrote: »

Well you wouldn't see me as I am no longer a student and I am currently subsidising your education now. :-)

What makes you think that the poor would have to pay at all? Do you have any basis for this, other than conjecture? I reckon it is a fairer system, as those who can afford to pay, will pay (perhaps having to make do without the J1 and car, shame) and those who cannot afford will be means tested and have their fees paid for, which I believe was the case before anyway. It's a fair system, and I wager the only reason you object if because you would be one of the middle class students who must pay.

Booooo.

Rubbish.

Whats with all this middle class crap as well? More borrowed terms from other countries. Middle class people pay the highest percentage of taxes.

And whose to say one person is working class and the other middle class.

I've got Sky at home does that make me middle class. But maybe I'm working class because I was on the dole half this calendar year nearly.
But yet I cant get any sort of grant to get me by in college?

If fees come in, I wont be able to go to college anymore and that is a fact. Maybe if the had a proper grant system I could but I wont be able to.

Bringing in fees shouldnt mean poor people cant go to college. Anyway talk of poor people is laughable, alot of people with average incomes wont be able to afford kids in college.

Duke Leonal Felmet

DB10 wrote: »

Duke Leonal Felmet wrote: »

Well you wouldn't see me as I am no longer a student and I am currently subsidising your education now. :-)

What makes you think that the poor would have to pay at all? Do you have any basis for this, other than conjecture? I reckon it is a fairer system, as those who can afford to pay, will pay (perhaps having to make do without the J1 and car, shame) and those who cannot afford will be means tested and have their fees paid for, which I believe was the case before anyway. It's a fair system, and I wager the only reason you object if because you would be one of the middle class students who must pay.

Booooo.

Rubbish.

Whats with all this middle class crap as well? More borrowed terms from other countries. Middle class people pay the highest percentage of taxes.

And whose to say one person is working class and the other middle class.

I've got Sky at home does that make me middle class. But maybe I'm working class because I was on the dole half this calendar year nearly.
But yet I cant get any sort of grant to get me by in college?

If fees come in, I wont be able to go to college anymore and that is a fact. Maybe if the had a proper grant system I could but I wont be able to.

Bringing in fees shouldnt mean poor people cant go to college. Anyway talk of poor people is laughable, alot of people with average incomes wont be able to afford kids in college.

I stopped reading at rubbish. Try not to be so dismissive, in future.

parker kent

As a country we need to decide if we will pay higher taxes or pay higher fees for third level education. Comparisons with European countries with a high rate of tax and lower fees is pointless. Plus as was pointed out earlier, very little of those countries have top ranked Universities.

I've seen plenty of comments on here saying that our universities rankings are terrible etc. Well decreasing funding (by cutting fees as referred to above) would be disastrous. You can't have a world class service on a third world budget. Yes of course there are examples of waste (basically in before pay levels at senior management, bonuses etc are mentioned). But you can't have it both ways. If you want a great 3rd Level sector (as I'm sure most here do), then it has to be funded from somewhere.

Anita Blow

Duke Leonal Felmet wrote: »

Well you wouldn't see me as I am no longer a student and I am currently subsidising your education now. :-)

What makes you think that the poor would have to pay at all? Do you have any basis for this, other than conjecture? I reckon it is a fairer system, as those who can afford to pay, will pay (perhaps having to make do without the J1 and car, shame) and those who cannot afford will be means tested and have their fees paid for, which I believe was the case before anyway. It's a fair system, and I wager the only reason you object if because you would be one of the middle class students who must pay.

Booooo.

You seem to be getting mixed up between upper class and middle class. I see none of my middle-class friends (or myself) acting the way you're describing. But then again, that wouldn't suit your argument.
The government has ruled out means-testing as it would be too expensive to implement.

The problem is that the only people who would be able to go to college would be the poor (who would have their fees paid for) and the rich (who have enough disposable income to pay for fees). Middle-class families are coming under increasing pressure financially. These are financial pressures which once again, don't affect the rich (because they can afford it) and the poor (who get help from the state).

I am in no way upper class and I know that if fees are to be re-introduced the way the government seems to be planning (upfront payment instead of loan system or graduate tax), I will have to drop out. I can't even get a part time job because I have so much college hours and an extremely heavy workload. Even then, I can't help but feel I'm one of the lucky ones. I have people in my class from the country who have to pay accomodation fees and I have friends at home who have other siblings who are either already in college or will be in college next year and their parents will have to face possible college bills of €10,000. Unfortunately they aren't poor enough to get the government to pay their fees. Shame.

histories

sensibleken wrote: »

Good doctors, lawyers and scientists are essential to society. selecting them from the narrow pot of those who can afford it is not the way to ensure we get what we deserve.

I'm not saying education should only be for those that can afford it. I said I would be fine with fees being introduced if it were done properly and I gave an example of the UK. Get a loan that will cover costs and when you start earning above a certain level you pay that loan back. That loan should apply to those who (a) would otherwise not be able to afford 3rd level and (b) perhaps a half loan for those who are above the means test but would still financially struggle. Those that are rich and I mean proper money, should get no loan as they can afford it. The fees should be the same for everyone not more expensive for those with money. Registration fees are at €2000 now. Next year could be looking at 2500/3000. Have the fees at maybe €3-4 K.

This of course is assuming the government would implement it properly. Given the way things are implemented however I would prefer it stay the way it is.

DB10

Duke Leonal Felmet wrote: »

I stopped reading at rubbish. Try not to be so dismissive, in future.

See when people say they stopped reading at a certain point. They clearly didnt. You just cant handle the truth.

Anyway if you ever have kids you might not be so dismissive of students and learn the facts of the situation.

parker kent

DB10 wrote: »

Bringing in fees shouldnt mean poor people cant go to college. Anyway talk of poor people is laughable, alot of people with average incomes wont be able to afford kids in college.

Fees could and should be used to subsidise an improved grant system. The grant system is under pressure from the ever decreasing amount being put into education.

Also on a wider point, in relation to bonuses, they actually attribute to a tiny amount of a Universities budget. So whilst highlighting them may make catchy headlines, in reality they make very little difference.

Duke Leonal Felmet

DB10 wrote: »

Duke Leonal Felmet wrote: »

I stopped reading at rubbish. Try not to be so dismissive, in future.

See when people say they stopped reading at a certain point. They clearly didnt. You just cant handle the truth.

Anyway if you ever have kids you might not be so dismissive of students and learn the facts of the situation.

Whatever you think, must be true. What a wonderful world view. Glad to see my taxes are being well spent...

Fishooks12

Duke Leonal Felmet wrote: »

Whatever you think, must be true. What a wonderful world view. Glad to see my taxes are being well spent...

Wow, you really are delusional