GP with interest in alternative medicine?

maireann

Hey, I'm looking for a GP in Dublin 6, 6W who wouldn't be big into antibiotics first thing, but rather going the herbal route. It's funny how health care professionals here are either or... Anybody out there who has trained in conventional medicine but might have extra qualifications in more holistic approaches?
Appreciate your help!

Degsy

maireann wrote: »

Hey, I'm looking for a GP in Dublin 6, 6W who wouldn't be big into antibiotics first thing, but rather going the herbal route. It's funny how health care professionals here are either or... Anybody out there who has trained in conventional medicine but might have extra qualifications in more holistic approaches?
Appreciate your help!

So do you want a GP or a quack?

maireann

Haha, that's exactly the attitude I was talking about

BeerNut

"You know what they call alternative medicine that works?

"Medicine."

(Linky)

_blank_

now that the stand-up comedians have had their say, anyone got any helpful replies?

Paxmanwithinfo

You could call it complimentary medicine but not alternative.

Avoid homeopathy as there is zero positive research but many rich people on the back of dangerous and downright negligent quackery.

Death can result more often if you choose a non conventional route for a serious undiagnosed illness but go for gold it is YOUR decision afterall. Just don't extend this logic to any innocent children - for their sake.

Paxmanwithinfo

If you forgive me for the initial outburst, most GPs that I know (and I know many) actually face an uphill battle to stem the amount of requests for antibiotics that they are bombarded with. Many people seem to think they have had a successful trip to the GP if they emerge with script in hand.

A sensible doctor who believes there is no need for an antibiotic (most in most instances) will write a post dated prescription and advise the patient to have it dispensed and take it at that point in the future. In most cases the body itself will have healed in the interim.

The incidental finding of a lump on your breast / testicle would be the real bonus of the visit.

endacl

Des wrote: »

now that the stand-up comedians have had their say, anyone got any helpful replies?

I thought they were all helpful. Medical doctors tend not to peddle snake oil with good reason, and its not about squeaky snakes...

Degsy

Well if a medical doctor diagnoses a gram-negative infection he will prescribe antibiotics known to treat that particular illness.

He wont however tell you that you'd recive medically beneficial results from sleeping with a crystal under your pillow during a full moon.

Its either medicine or its magic.

mcmoustache

I think that such doctors would be hard to find. Most doctors, in my opinion, would be scientifically minded and would dismiss unproven quackery as quackery. Likewise, quacks are quacks because there's money to be made without actually getting trained in medicine which is very difficult.

Essentially, doctors are too smart to believe quackery and quacks are too thick to become doctors. For this reason, there wouldn't be much of an overlap.

I did see a documentary on homeopathy and the NHS years ago and it did feature a doctor who practices homeopathy so I'm sure that such people exist, just that there wouldn't be many.

Out of curiosity, what do you want from this doctor that requires an "alternative" component?

Jocasta

I don't know if this is actually helpful as he is not in your area, but there is a doctor in the Slievemore Clinic in Stillorgan called Brendan Fitzpatrick who is a GP but also embraces alternative methods. Link: http://www.slievemore-clinic.com/health.php?page=94
Maybe if you get in touch they could recommend someone closer to you?

Paxmanwithinfo

It's important to note that they are not typically alternative methods but complimentary (if anything).

Also as for dispensing antibiotics when necessary - sure thing. It's like taking pain relief for pain. Why not take it? (Usually) Unless you have some form of stoic conviction. What is annoying is the suggestion sometimes by pharmacists sales agents that you also take "pro-biotics"??? With antibiotics. Nonesense in my view based on current research.

I mean, where is the evidence? Evidence based medicine. What are "pro-biotics"? Have you seen the sugar level in most?

Thankfully, proper research is begining in this area now. Hopefully they will be proven complimentary. Or become teh standard trestment. I doubt it though.

desertcircus

maireann wrote: »

Hey, I'm looking for a GP in Dublin 6, 6W who wouldn't be big into antibiotics first thing, but rather going the herbal route. It's funny how health care professionals here are either or... Anybody out there who has trained in conventional medicine but might have extra qualifications in more holistic approaches?
Appreciate your help!

It would be worth considering why you're finding it so hard to find a properly qualified healthcare professional willing to recommend such treatments. You would be better served by reading Bad Science by Ben Goldacre.

fred252

If I learnt my GP was into alternative medicine he would cease to be my GP.

endacl

fred252 wrote: »

If I learnt my GP was into alternative medicine he would cease to be my GP.

That about sums it up.
Witchdoctors are for sick witches. Stay away from holistic therapy unless there's something wrong with your hole.

maireann

mcmoustache wrote: »

I think that such doctors would be hard to find. Most doctors, in my opinion, would be scientifically minded and would dismiss unproven quackery as quackery. Likewise, quacks are quacks because there's money to be made without actually getting trained in medicine which is very difficult.

Essentially, doctors are too smart to believe quackery and quacks are too thick to become doctors. For this reason, there wouldn't be much of an overlap.

I did see a documentary on homeopathy and the NHS years ago and it did feature a doctor who practices homeopathy so I'm sure that such people exist, just that there wouldn't be many.

Out of curiosity, what do you want from this doctor that requires an "alternative" component?

If you're knowledge about homeopathy comes from a documentary only you've probably never been to a good homeopath (is it them you refer to as quacks?), so how do you know they're not as "smart" as doctors? The training involved there is quite challenging as well, especially because you have to think for yourself (to get to the cause of the illness) and can't just consult a manual of what to prescribe for which symptoms.
To answer your last question, it's just life-long experience and having been in the hands of a few very incompetent doctors, which makes me seek out those whose horizon extends a bit further.

@Jocasta Thanks so much for the link! Will definitely give them a ring

thirtythirty

Steve Jobs died because he went the alternative medicine route. He would have been saved if he hadn't wasted his time with it at the start, and he was quoted as regretting it.

If it's anything serious OP, please get real advice. Knock yourself out if it's for a bout of the sniffles though

Halal Butcher

spottyelephant wrote: »

Steve Jobs died because he went the alternative medicine route. He would have been saved if he hadn't wasted his time with it at the start, and he was quoted as regretting it.

If it's anything serious OP, please get real advice. Knock yourself out if it's for a bout of the sniffles though

Steve Jobs died because he had pancreatic cancer which has about a 5% survival rate.

If the OP believes in alternative medicine then it's more likely to work for her, depending what the problem is of course.

There is a very high percentage of medicine handed out by GPs which has not yet been proven to be anymore beneficial than the placebo effect, which kinda makes a mockery of a lot of the argument here.

Degsy

maireann wrote: »

you've probably never been to a good homeopath (is it them you refer to as quacks?), so how do you know they're not as "smart" as doctors?

Of course its quackery..the idea that if you dilute some element in water so much that there's no trace of the element detectable that it somehow potentiates whatever healing property it supposedly has?

Pure garbage and peddling this sort of mumbo jumbo to sick people is an utter disgrace.

Homeopaths are in it strictly to line thier own pockets and they're quacks of the worst sort.

trishasaffron

This is descending into a diatribe about homeopathy. I, like the OP, much prefer a doctor with an open mind to complementary medicine. My definition of complementary medicine is much wider than homeopathy or indeed any specific alternative. Its really about finding someone with a holistic approach prepared patiently and cleverly to look at all apects of ill-health and to look at a wide range of solution (including antibiotics if necessary). I find most doctors and particularly specialist are quite narrow minded insofar as they have read the book and been trained in a specific way and are too nervous or arrogant to move outside that. Since time began the best doctors have used a broad based approach.

BTW I have used Brendan Fizpatrick and he has a nice holistic approach.

thirtythirty

Halal Butcher wrote: »

Steve Jobs died because he had pancreatic cancer which has about a 5% survival rate.

What are you on? Alternative medicine removed the window of opportunity for cutting out the cancer before it spread.

The point is not whether he would have definately survived or not, but that the alternative medicine definately wasn't going to save his life, and probably exacerbated the issue.

Halal Butcher wrote: »

If the OP believes in alternative medicine then it's more likely to work for her, depending what the problem is of course.

Ha. This pretty much sums up alternative medicine.

I believe that clapping my hands 3 times before I go to bed will improve my chances of not getting cancer in the future, is it more likely to work for me because I believe it versus the guy in the UK who just happens to clap his hands 3 times before bed?

Stark

maireann wrote: »

If you're knowledge about homeopathy comes from a documentary only you've probably never been to a good homeopath (is it them you refer to as quacks?), so how do you know they're not as "smart" as doctors? The training involved there is quite challenging as well, especially because you have to think for yourself (to get to the cause of the illness) and can't just consult a manual of what to prescribe for which symptoms.
To answer your last question, it's just life-long experience and having been in the hands of a few very incompetent doctors, which makes me seek out those whose horizon extends a bit further.

The training a priest goes through is very rigorous. That doesn't mean I'd choose prayer over scientifically verified treatment.

Halal Butcher

spottyelephant wrote: »

What are you on? Alternative medicine removed the window of opportunity for cutting out the cancer before it spread.

The point is not whether he would have definately survived or not, but that the alternative medicine definately wasn't going to save his life, and probably exacerbated the issue.

From your article "...it appears likely that Jobs did indeed decrease his chances of survival through his nine month sojourn into woo. On the other hand, it still remains very unclear by just how much he decreased his chances of survival. My best guesstimate is that, thanks to the indolent nature of functional insulinomas and lead time bias, it was probably only by a relatively small percentage. This leads me to point out that accepting that Jobs' choice probably decreased somewhat his chances of of surving his cancer is a very different thing than concluding that "alternative medicine killed Steve Jobs."

Ha. This pretty much sums up alternative medicine.

I believe that clapping my hands 3 times before I go to bed will improve my chances of not getting cancer in the future, is it more likely to work for me because I believe it versus the guy in the UK who just happens to clap his hands 3 times before bed?

That's pretty much how the placebo effect works, yes.

The behavioural economist Dan Ariely has done a lot of interesting research on the placebo effect which is worth looking up

Stark

Paxmanwithinfo wrote: »

Also as for dispensing antibiotics when necessary - sure thing. It's like taking pain relief for pain. Why not take it? (Usually) Unless you have some form of stoic conviction. What is annoying is the suggestion sometimes by pharmacists sales agents that you also take "pro-biotics"??? With antibiotics. Nonesense in my view based on current research.

Antibiotics kill gut flora. Probiotics can be useful for staving off diarrhoea if you're taking a long dose of antibiotics. There is some evidence that they're effective in this regard.

Tbh, I could see how "alternative medicine" would be a useful tool for a GP if they wanted to "treat" hypochondriacs, the "I like a prescription of paracetamol with my morning coffee" and the "Why can't you treat my/my child's sniffles?" brigade. Where it gets dangerous is when they start to claim that they can treat conditions other than self-limiting moany git conditions.

(Case in point, I remember my dad being riddled with pain a few years ago because he went to a chiropractor to treat a complaint he had. Things only got better after he went to a real doctor to seek treatment).

Halal Butcher wrote:

From your article "...it appears likely that Jobs did indeed decrease his chances of survival through his nine month sojourn into woo. On the other hand, it still remains very unclear by just how much he decreased his chances of survival. My best guesstimate is that, thanks to the indolent nature of functional insulinomas and lead time bias, it was probably only by a relatively small percentage. This leads me to point out that accepting that Jobs' choice probably decreased somewhat his chances of of surving his cancer is a very different thing than concluding that "alternative medicine killed Steve Jobs."

I'll take "slightly decreased chances" of death over "slightly increased chances" any day thank you.

Halal Butcher

Stark wrote: »

I'll take "slightly decreased chances" of death over "slightly increased chances" any day thank you.

A slight increase on 5% still doesn't augur well.

Paparazzo

Halal Butcher wrote: »

Steve Jobs died because he had pancreatic cancer which has about a 5% survival rate.

If the OP believes in alternative medicine then it's more likely to work for her, depending what the problem is of course.

There is a very high percentage of medicine handed out by GPs which has not yet been proven to be anymore beneficial than the placebo effect, which kinda makes a mockery of a lot of the argument here.

What percentage?
Is it higher than the 100% that homeopaths hand out?

Halal Butcher

Paparazzo wrote: »

What percentage?
Is it higher than the 100% that homeopaths hand out?

85% of new medicines according to research in 2009, and a total of 80%, IIRC, of all medicines in a 1990's study in America.

maireann

Paparazzo wrote: »

What percentage?
Is it higher than the 100% that homeopaths hand out?

Seems like you haven't done your research. Will I give you a few links to medical studies on the subject?

thirtythirty

Halal Butcher wrote: »

From your article "...it appears likely that Jobs did indeed decrease his chances of survival through his nine month sojourn into woo. On the other hand, it still remains very unclear by just how much he decreased his chances of survival. My best guesstimate is that, thanks to the indolent nature of functional insulinomas and lead time bias, it was probably only by a relatively small percentage. This leads me to point out that accepting that Jobs' choice probably decreased somewhat his chances of of surving his cancer is a very different thing than concluding that "alternative medicine killed Steve Jobs."

That's exactly my point - chances of survival decreased due to wasted time with alternative medicine. Thanks for clarifying that.

Halal Butcher wrote: »

That's pretty much how the placebo effect works, yes.

The behavioural economist Dan Ariely has done a lot of interesting research on the placebo effect which is worth looking up

Again yes, your essentially stating yourself that alternative medicines have no medicinal qualities - it's all in the mind of the person. And it doesn't matter how much someone with diabetes or a tumour believe they don't have it, because they do.

Both your points back up the fact that alternative medicines should only be used when there are no actual medical requirements, and the person simply wants something to help them to take a positive attitude to getting over the sniffles quickly.

Degsy

http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/cancer.html

This is quite long but worth a read.

http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/homeo.html

Halal Butcher

spottyelephant wrote: »

That's exactly my point - chances of survival decreased due to wasted time with alternative medicine. Thanks for clarifying that.

You're welcome.

Again yes, your essentially stating yourself that alternative medicines have no medicinal qualities - it's all in the mind of the person. And it doesn't matter how much someone with diabetes or a tumour believe they don't have it, because they do.

Both your points back up the fact that alternative medicines should only be used when there are no actual medical requirements, and the person simply wants something to help them to take a positive attitude to getting over the sniffles quickly.

Which is why I stated in my original post that it depends for what reason she is attending the GP in the first place.

altough I wouldn't necessarily agree that there are no alternative medicines which have no medicinal properties.