Your opinion on college fees/education cuts.

Seren_

Seeing as most of the posters of C&H are at either school or college, I thought I would start a thread about the topic of college fees and education costs, what with the march against fees on next week. It is our educations and those of our younger brothers/sisters/cousins/whatever that are being jeopardised, so surely our opinions should be taken into consideration.

For those of you still in school, will you still be able to go to college if fees are introduced? Have you noticed much effect in your school with the education cuts (e.g. resource hours/SNAs being reduced, bigger class sizes and so on)?

Personally, I am against the re-introduction of college fees in any shape or form. I feel that education is a right, not a privilege, and that extends to higher education as well. I also think that cutting spending on education is not justifiable, even in the current financial climate. Countries in worse positions pumped money into education in the past (e.g. Germany after WW2) and look at them now!

Pigwidgeon

Obviously as a student, the reintroduction of fees would affect me hugely. I worked for 8 months to help pay towards my tuition fees for this year and it's still really affecting my family, which is something I feel incredibly guilty about. If they're reintroduced I don't think I'd be able to afford the next three years of college.

I know the country isn't in the best state and all, but I know a lot of people who would be forced to drop out if fees are completely brought back. When I hear of how much ministers and stuff are paid, and the uproar when civil servant's are asked to take pay cuts, it really annoys me, when if I had of stayed in UCD I would have been in the group that's grant was cut by 60%. I cannot understand how our TD's can earn pretty much €100,000 a year and will not willingly take bigger pay cuts, but they're willing to reintroduce fees for colleges.

I for one will definitely be protesting on Wednesday.

Jamie Starr

I really don't think education should be considered a right as far as Ireland is concerned- it is a privilege. My brother was the first person in our close family to ever receive a university degree, and the first to ever even attend university. I'm the second. My father never even got past inter-cert level at school, both he and my mother weren't even in this country by the time they were 18. I don't think my family history's a unique case either.

I don't want fees to rise, because really, I doubt I'd be able to finish my degree or get a masters if they go up and grants go down. But I can't help seeing it as a good thing in some respect, because a lot of people, viewing university as a right, take it for granted and ultimately piss away their college education, while so many others struggle just to make it in. Perhaps having to fight for our education system might make people value it more. Looking at the US fee system for example, it's no wonder a lot of the American students I meet are extremely serious about their studies when they're abroad, because their so used to making sure the huge sacrifice they, or their families have made, goes on to mean something. I understand of course that many on here are these types of students, who make a ton of difficult choices in order to remain in college, but there a lot of others who don't work nearly as hard and yet expect the education system to accommodate them regardless.

Which brings me onto my second point: as I said last year, I think marching up and down the street, wearing stupid T-shirts, chanting, being a nuisance the general public etc. accomplishes very little. If we're really supposed to be invested in, if student's are as bright and worth the privilege of university as we like to think we are, then surely we can do better? I was embarrassed last year by that protest. Maybe cooperating with universities/government in order to find new ways forward regarding higher level education? Using some bit of ingenuity anyway, I'm sure any cuts that do have to be made can be worked around. Flowing onto the streets and being beaten over the head by riot police doesn't change economies, but bringing students together and get some ideas about lessening the impact of cuts might make a difference to our education.

challengemaster

Pigwidgeon wrote: »

I know the country isn't in the best state and all, but I know a lot of people who would be forced to drop out if fees are completely brought back. When I hear of how much ministers and stuff are paid, and the uproar when civil servant's are asked to take pay cuts, it really annoys me, when if I had of stayed in UCD I would have been in the group that's grant was cut by 60%. I cannot understand how our TD's can earn pretty much €100,000 a year and will not willingly take bigger pay cuts, but they're willing to reintroduce fees for colleges.

I for one will definitely be protesting on Wednesday.

Never mind ministers, the millions that are wasted on RTÉ alone.... pat kenny getting nearly 1m per year salary. :rolleyes:

I was there last year, and after seeing how it turned out, won't be going again this year. The message just got overshadowed by the riots, and I've a sneaking suspicion the same will happen again this year.

Luno

I'm completely against college fees being reintroduced. Saying college is a right is probably a bit over the top but in reality there's not much other options out there. It's pretty difficult for even college graduates to obtain jobs so what hope is there for those who were unable to afford to go to college? Protests may not be the most ideal means of getting our word across but there isn't a whole lot else that can be done, I'm pretty sure there has been other countries with issues similar to this that have achieved their aims through protests. Education should be invested in not the opposite!

Pigwidgeon

challengemaster wrote: »

Never mind ministers, the millions that are wasted on RTÉ alone.... pat kenny getting nearly 1m per year salary. :rolleyes:

I was there last year, and after seeing how it turned out, won't be going again this year. The message just got overshadowed by the riots, and I've a sneaking suspicion the same will happen again this year.

Yeah that's actually quite a good point. Hopefully that doesn't happen again this year. Now that I'm thinking about it I'm not really sure how much the protest achieved last year, seeing as the grant cuts, distance criteria and fees were still increased.

JamJamJamJam

Okay I haven't really thought about it loads, so the chances are I'll be making my own mind up as I write :P

First things first: we are in a crap economic situation, with no money for anything, so it seems logical to reduce spending. And compared to countries like the U.S. countries with high fees, the current fees are very cheap....

But... This isn't the U.S. a country with high fees. Things can be really tough there if you lose your job, for instance. You're pretty much on your own. Here, things are meant to be different. We help the unemployed, the disabled (okay, I don't know what the story in the U.S. countries with high fees is with disability, but I'm going to assume it's better here), and the elderly and the thousands and the thousands of students! It's an inherent part of Irish culture to do what is best for the group (whether it's family, locality or country as a whole) rather than to exist as a bunch of individuals in the same place. As somebody wise may or may not have once said, through adversity, we must not lose sight of our principles.

Like most things, this can probably be compared to Hamlet. He goes through adversity and he loses sight of the moral principles that prevented him from acting upon his short-sighted, vengeful solution. Then he gets all dead and stuff. Moral of the story: Shakespeare's plays were merely a cunning guise for his revolutionary economic theories!

Seriously, though, it would be verrry myopic to reduce the amount of money being put into education. More fees would reduce the number of people who are unable to go to college (obviously equating to a less educated population). In, say, 20 years time we're going to need a highly educated population, not one whose education was neglected to keep costs down for a year. By neglecting the quality of education, we're just setting ourselves up to be ignored by future external investment in the country. So basically, if they continue to put the money in now, they'll get it back eventually between income tax and corporation tax and everything. And if they don't, it'll get worse (or it'll make it a lot harder for the economy to improve).




tl;dr: education is important, and it's good for the economy anyway. Down with fees!



Do your best!




EDIT: Oh I forgot that point, Agnostic Mantis is so right about people undervaluing third level education... We should reeeally be doing something about people who just piss around for three or four or five years, because that does seem wasteful...

Grindylow

I'm totally against them being introduced too! As most people know, I dropped out this year so if they were reintroduced for 1st years from 2012 on, I'm not even sure if I'd go back to college because of the cost!

I don't see why the government are trying to cut education funds, when so many immigrants and wasters are on social welfare in Ireland getting between 100 and 200/300 euros a week for doing absolutely nothing! At least students are working towards bettering themselves. If anything, social welfare payments should be cut by more than already cut, specifically for those under 25 who haven't ever had a job/went straight onto the dole from school and those who immigrated to Ireland and have never worked/claimed social welfare all their time here (harsh opinion I know, and I'm not racist, but I think it's absolutely ridiculous!).

Everyone says Ireland has "free" education already, but I don't see a €2000 registration fee and costs on top of that as "free" in any form! I presume if fees are introduced, many people will be forced to drop out of college.

I'm also sick of certain students complaining that because their grants were cut, they can no longer attend college (this year!). I know one person who lives approx 20 km from his college (he put his address as his parents on the grant form). He was getting €6000 last year, and it was cut to €2500 this year (rightly) and he caused a big fuss about it. As if he really needed €6000 to drive to college everyday. :rolleyes: The grants system really needs to be improved!

Fad

I rarely post in here anymore but hello!

I'm vaguely in support of fees, but if and ONLY IF there is a proper loan system introduced, that is all.

I would like to point out how redundant comparing our system to the US system is though (It drives me insane), most colleges in a America that have high fees are private institutions, so they're businesses shockingly.....

If you went to a public college over there, it wouldn't necessarily cost much more than full fees here (ie, I pay the reg fee of 2 grand and I get HEA funding of between 6 and 7 grand that goes straight to the college, by full fess I'm talking about paying both of those).

Lawliet

I don't want to pay fees, but if it's a choice between an tuition fee or an even higher "student contribution" with further cuts to the grant, and more cut backs in the funding that colleges and universities get, then I'd rather an honest fee. Third level education is not a right, we're adults and I think it's reasonable to expect us to pay for our education when the government can no longer afford it. Having said that, I do strongly believe that if they decide to bring back full fees they need to have the proper infrastructure in place to help students who can't afford the fees; means testing, grant reforms, student loan system, graduate tax etc.
But for the students who can well afford fees, there's absolutely no reason why they should be benefiting from free fees.

Seren_

Fad wrote: »

I would like to point out how redundant comparing our system to the US system is though (It drives me insane), most colleges in a America that have high fees are private institutions, so they're businesses shockingly.....

If you went to a public college over there, it wouldn't necessarily cost much more than full fees here (ie, I pay the reg fee of 2 grand and I get HEA funding of between 6 and 7 grand that goes straight to the college, by full fess I'm talking about paying both of those).

This exactly. I never can understand why people continue to compare the two systems when they are extremely dissimilar!

I'd like to clarify what I meant when I said I think third level education is a right. I meant that everyone, regardless of income etc, should have the right to attend college if they so wish. I worded it poorly

Also, I do think protesting and campaigns like this make a bit of a difference. It certainly does more than sitting around complaining about it on the internet! (not that I'm accusing any of you of doing that, it's just that some people always tend to complain that there's no point in protesting and then give out about the government etc in the next sentence).

bamhaithliom

In August of this year my dreams of studying medicine came true. If fees were reintroduced my dreams would be snatched from my grip, years of hard work and diligence would go down the drain and I'd be forced to drop out of college, degree-less and hopeless and pretty much shattered.

PseudoFamous

If the grants are cut, there is no college for me. I live 75km away from college, as I can't afford to live nearer. I'm gone from the house from 6.25am until 8pm everyday, and then I often have assignments to be done, leaving no time for work, whatsoever. Parents can't afford to pay me through, either, since my dad is long dead, and my mum works damn hard to keep us above sustenance level.

I do not support a loan system being put in place by the government, because graduates typically pay 70% more tax throughout their lives than workers without a third level education.
That 70% of extra tax seriously benefits the government, and giving them money for getting the ability to give them more money is, quite frankly, ridiculous. Why not bend over and just present yourself for them, instead?

Pigwidgeon

This was just posted on the USI's facebook page, it's tomorrows Sunday Business Post. If this goes ahead it's shocking. There's no way I'll ever get to masters level if I want without a grant, I simply can't afford it and I don't know many people who can.

I honestly cannot believe they're going to outright get rid of them. I assume finer details will come out tomorrow, but for now it's not looking good.

Duffy the Vampire Slayer

Well if that happens I'm done. I won't be able to complete my course and I'll be on the dole or emigrating. And if its the latter I won't be in any hurry back after a move like that.

Pigwidgeon

I can see a lot of people being like that. Post grad fees are usually about €6000 aren't they? (In DIT they are AFAIK)

I really can't see a move like that ending well at all, especially with it coming out a few days before the protest is planned. It's something like 40% of students are eligible for grants at the moment, it could even be higher, I'm not sure, so by doing that they've effectively stopped almost half the population from getting a chance at doing a masters. I know from when my brother did his, the grant didn't even cover all his fees, and we were still stuck paying €2000 or something like that.

PseudoFamous

Just out of interest, is there anything against thousands of students marching up to Enda Kenny's front door and occupying his porch for a week? I know he's not Minister for Education, but hey.. Go straight to the top if you want to make a complaint. #OccupyKenny'sGaff

bythewoods

Pigwidgeon wrote: »

This was just posted on the USI's facebook page, it's tomorrows Sunday Business Post. If this goes ahead it's shocking. There's no way I'll ever get to masters level if I want without a grant, I simply can't afford it and I don't know many people who can.

I honestly cannot believe they're going to outright get rid of them. I assume finer details will come out tomorrow, but for now it's not looking good.

Well, to be fair, undergraduate grants should take the priority. 3rd level education is far from a right, and getting a Masters is definitely, definitely not the responsibility of the state!

Like, shouldn't a line be drawn? An undergraduate degree should be enough to get a job (even short-term) to save for a Masters.

Perhaps this'll stop the culture of "Ah sure I'll do a Masters until I figure out what I want to do".

Grindylow

bythewoods wrote: »

Well, to be fair, undergraduate grants should take the priority. 3rd level education is far from a right, and getting a Masters is definitely, definitely not the responsibility of the state!

Like, shouldn't a line be drawn? An undergraduate degree should be enough to get a job (even short-term) to save for a Masters.

Perhaps this'll stop the culture of "Ah sure I'll do a Masters until I figure out what I want to do".

Totally agree! Masters shouldn't be just paid for because someone did a degree in something unspecific/something they weren't interested in! Undergraduate degrees definitely deserve priority, and if this means fees/grants won't be affected for undergraduates, it's fine by me!

Duffy the Vampire Slayer

PseudoFamous wrote: »

Just out of interest, is there anything against thousands of students marching up to Enda Kenny's front door and occupying his porch for a week? I know he's not Minister for Education, but hey.. Go straight to the top if you want to make a complaint. #OccupyKenny'sGaff

I know Castlebar secondary school students were quick enough to go protesting once before (Who wouldn't be to get out of school?) so maybe they'll be easily convinced to go to Enda's house for a week.

PseudoFamous

Duffy the Vampire Slayer wrote: »

I know Castlebar secondary school students were quick enough to go protesting once before (Who wouldn't be to get out of school?) so maybe they'll be easily convinced to go to Enda's house for a week.

Eh, surely he does't commute from Mayo everyday.. I thought the Taoiseach's residence was just outside Castleknock..

The Liquidator

I think raising the fees, but not extortionately, would be fair but further cuts to the grant would be disgraceful.

Those who do not qualify for the grant could, for the most part, absorb the cost of higher fees even if it isn't ideal and those who are in receipt of a grant would have their fees covered by their grant anyway.

Hope that makes sense!:)

Duffy the Vampire Slayer

PseudoFamous wrote: »

Eh, surely he does't commute from Mayo everyday.. I thought the Taoiseach's residence was just outside Castleknock..

Do they have an official place? I know that he spends weekdays in Dublin but I always thought it was something they arranged themselves.

PseudoFamous

Duffy the Vampire Slayer wrote: »

Do they have an official place? I know that he spends weekdays in Dublin but I always thought it was something they arranged themselves.

Steward's Lodge is the name of it, according to Wikipedia.

Duffy the Vampire Slayer

He's the first one to live there, I was thinking I'd never heard of it before.

jumpguy

Trying to articulate when tired...

I agree with Agnostic Mantis in that 3rd level education really isn't a right. The attitude that 3rd level education is a right and not a privilege has led to 3rd level education being taken for granted in this country by a great deal of students.

Education needs a shedload of funding, and the more money it gets the better quality it'll be. Hence I don't think extra student contribution, so long as it improves the quality of our education is a bad thing, but only if there is some sort of student loan system that is fair and sensible. This current raising-the-amount-to-be-paid-up-front thing is very unfair and puts great pressure on the generally-poor undergrad student.

/thoughts condensed

Screaminmidget

The Liquidator wrote: »

I think raising the fees, but not extortionately, would be fair but further cuts to the grant would be disgraceful.

Those who do not qualify for the grant could, for the most part, absorb the cost of higher fees even if it isn't ideal and those who are in receipt of a grant would have their fees covered by their grant anyway.

Hope that makes sense!:)

I disagree..

Most of the people I know who get a grant just piss it away on drink anyways. I dont think its fair that just because I dont get a grant I should be asked to pay more in fees?? Im in a single parent family and arent entitled to a grant, and if the fees go up I can see a lot of students dropping out....

Pigwidgeon

The Liquidator wrote: »

I think raising the fees, but not extortionately, would be fair but further cuts to the grant would be disgraceful.

Those who do not qualify for the grant could, for the most part, absorb the cost of higher fees even if it isn't ideal and those who are in receipt of a grant would have their fees covered by their grant anyway.

Hope that makes sense!:)

What about the people who are just borderline above the grant limit? I know several of my friends in this situation an their families are struggling enough to pay the fees and support themselves without them being charged an even higher rate.

Pygmalion

Why should the government pay for the education of people who are too lazy to have large amounts of money lying around by the time they finish secondary school?
If you can't afford education then just get a job in McDonalds like, leave the learning to people whose parents can afford it.

People who receive financial assistance are all just alcoholics who don't care about learning anyway, why should we pay for them to buy heroin and Tesco vodka?

Skintwin

Pigwidgeon wrote: »

What about the people who are just borderline above the grant limit? I know several of my friends in this situation an their families are struggling enough to pay the fees and support themselves without them being charged an even higher rate.

I'm borderline above the grant limit, and I've done my best to get a part time job, but the only thing I could get (well something that gave me more than three hours a week) is only a part time contract coming up to Christmas. I wass lucky enough to have managed to save enough money to keep me going through the first half of the year, so my parents haven't had to fund me in a weekly sense, but we;re really feeling the pinch with the 500 euro hike in the registration fee. Fúck it, we still have half of it to pay and no idea where we're going to get it from because I have to use the money I'm making in my job to try and save money for Erasmus (which I HAVE to go on, and completely can't get out of it, as financial reasons aren't good enough).

Basically, if fees go up, I can't go to college anymore and that's two years of giving myself a taste of something I love and of what my life could be like in the future if I can stay in college and get my degree, for absolutely nothing only to torment myself with for the rest of my life.

Sorry to get heavy, but that's how it is.

amacachi

bythewoods wrote: »

Well, to be fair, undergraduate grants should take the priority. 3rd level education is far from a right, and getting a Masters is definitely, definitely not the responsibility of the state!

Like, shouldn't a line be drawn? An undergraduate degree should be enough to get a job (even short-term) to save for a Masters.

Perhaps this'll stop the culture of "Ah sure I'll do a Masters until I figure out what I want to do".

I disagree tbh. Once someone's taken on the debt of an undergraduate degree and shown they're dedicated enough then postgraduates should be funded. But it's better to dole out Bachelor degrees instead I suppose.