Your opinion on college fees/education cuts.

Grindylow

melekalikimaka wrote: »

grants and fees are two very different things now. so you think you should get a free shot at college, but someone who didnt take up on it and went to work and then decided to go to colllege should be given the opportunity?

Not necessarily. But I think that paying for the education of a 60/70 year old who will most likely never do anything with their degree is ridiculous. Sure, the chance should be offered to those who truly deserve it as mature students, with a more strict entry procedure, rather than applying through the CAO with a personal statement and getting a place. I know high demand degrees use interviews as a selection process, but some degrees don't even require an interview for mature students. Most, if not all mature students get their BTEA allowance then which AFAIK is more than the grant that regular students get.

Offer them their places, but don't pay for the entire degree if they're on their 2nd chance degree. One undergraduate degree is surely enough for any one person.

Fad

Dont really know where people think the money for this loan system will come from...

amacachi

melekalikimaka wrote: »

whats wrong with paying for it yourself? or taking a loan?

If they're going to cut back I'd prefer they cut back first on undergraduate spending. IMO they shouldn't be paying fees for either but I'd rather they didn't cut PG before UG.

Jamie Starr

Fad wrote: »

Dont really know where people think the money for this loan system will come from...

Or the jobs to pay for it...

psychward

melekalikimaka wrote: »

just because someone doesnt go to college, it doesnt make the counter productive to the economy... not even close...

Thats like saying full employment is great - even if we all work in sweatshops for a dollar a day to achieve it. Of course those who make these kinds of decisions rarely feel any pain for themselves or their own children. I know what kind of economy I would prefer. One based on highly skilled, educated and reasonably well paid workers. Any other kind of aspiration is defeatist and elitist. It's one thing becoming elite in a meritocracy but it's taking the piss to return us to an inbred backwards feudal system where the elite do not earn their privileges.
You should take back the ''not even close'' remark as it's not even close to the truth. Qualifications tend to mean better pay and conditions and more wealth. Stripping away someones ability to become educated is counter productive to my vision of the economy. Although it may very well suit some sweatshop owners vision of the economy.

Seren_

Yupik wrote: »

Another good idea would be to diminish funding for mature students, or at least introduce new regulations to drastically decrease the amount of them. Let them pay their own way through college rather than offering BTEA and a grant for them, because frankly they had their opportunity to go (some actually went to college, and get back in with full grants etc on the "2nd chance rule". Ridiculous, imo.

To be fair, mature students only get a grant or BTEA, not both. And only those who have been unemployed for a certain amount of time get BTEA. Most mature students didn't have the chance to even finish school, let alone go to college when they were younger, or at least most of the ones I have talked to anyway. I do agree the 2nd chance thing should be gotten rid off though, although I don't think it counts for full courses, only a year or whatever.

IHeartChemistry

I will go protesting just to show these eejits in Gov buildings that we care and demand more answers as to why students have to cover the countrys debt. Its not fair. Most if us were still in school when this mess was created, so why the f*ck should we have to pick up the pieces?

Also...on a lighter tone...whos up for protest meet up?

Seren_

IHeartChemistry wrote: »

I will go protesting just to show these eejits in Gov buildings that we care and demand more answers as to why students have to cover the countrys debt. Its not fair. Most if us were still in school when this mess was created, so why the f*ck should we have to pick up the pieces?

Also...on a lighter tone...whos up for protest meet up?

I'll be the one in the red tshirt :pac:

Captain Graphite

bythewoods wrote: »

Like, shouldn't a line be drawn? An undergraduate degree should be enough to get a job (even short-term) to save for a Masters.

It should be but the reality is that it isn't in the current climate. Friend of mine got a 2.1 in English & Art History and spent A YEAR on the Dole trying to find a job. Eventually she did a Masters, not just because she wanted to but because she effectively had to, to have any hope of getting a job.

I have an (admittedly average but by no means terrible) degree in a supposedly much sought-after discipline. Yet every job I apply for, I either get rejected or get ignored.

Perhaps this'll stop the culture of "Ah sure I'll do a Masters until I figure out what I want to do".

Replace the word Masters with "undergrad". Sound familiar?
So many people just go to college these days because it's the done thing. They then either don't make an effort and just focus on getting pissed every night instead, or else register for a course they hate and dropping out.

I'm somewhat guilty of this myself; I was always a good student and got the highest results in my year in both JC and LC. It felt like it was unthinkable for me not to go to college, even though I had no idea what I wanted to do. So I ended up registering for a course that I hated. Being too proud and too stubborn to drop out, I stuck with it and ended up with an average degree. Now I know what I wanna do, and my much-maligned degree can finally serve a purpose and get me into that area....but only if I do a Masters. Which I now, by the looks of it, will need to take out a bitch of a loan to help pay for.

Anyway, free education is a lovely idea in theory, but if students had to pay third level fees it might make them think more seriously about college and whether it's worth their while or not. It would save on students just registering for the hell of it or for the whole party aspect of it. In my case, I could have avoided both wasting years of my own life and wasting precious resources on my third level education if I knew I had to pay fees.

I'm not in favour of equal fees for everyone; it should definitely be mean tested and there should be resources available to help those who may struggle. But "free education for all" isn't really the best option either.

amacachi wrote: »

I disagree tbh. Once someone's taken on the debt of an undergraduate degree and shown they're dedicated enough then postgraduates should be funded. But it's better to dole out Bachelor degrees instead I suppose.

+1, well said. People are older and wiser by the time they've finished an undergraduate degree, so I don't think many people would blindly rush into a Masters without the proper attitude and dedication for it.

melekalikimaka

Fad wrote: »

Dont really know where people think the money for this loan system will come from...

lol... it would be less than the current amount it throws at students every year. the amount it pays colleges at the moment is sickening given the drop out rates

unknown13

On the whole issues of fees and grants. I don't really give that much of a toss about the reg fee being increased. The end of the day people want a free education in an economy that is in a serious mess. Not going to happen. I do however oppose the grant being cut, if we want to ensure equality and fair access into universities for all classes then cutting the grant isn't the way forward.

On the whole march issue. The march wont be as successful as last year. That is a definite. There is not as much hype and a lot of students aren't bothering to march this year aswell compared to last year.

MavisDavis

Yupik wrote: »

Yeah, but it's not the students fault that the country's running a deficit. Take it out on the major earners in the country, such as RTE workers, Irish bands who avoid taxes (not naming any one Bono you bítccch..), etc.

Another good idea would be to diminish funding for mature students, or at least introduce new regulations to drastically decrease the amount of them. Let them pay their own way through college rather than offering BTEA and a grant for them, because frankly they had their opportunity to go (some actually went to college, and get back in with full grants etc on the "2nd chance rule". Ridiculous, imo.

No, it's not the students' fault, but it's not the people who didn't vote for the government of the day's fault either, nor is the fault of people who didn't buy a second home/car or have a credit card splurge during the boom times - I could go on. We are citizens of this country too. It's ours and we also have to start assuming responsibility for the future of it. It's unfair, it's unpleasant and it's at times unbearable, but I think we all need try and get on with it. This "but it wasn't meeee" attitude people have is getting a bit grating. No, it wasn't you personally. It wasn't me personally, either. But this is our country and we have to help fix it if we can. Sitting around whining about it won't help. Of course students should have to take a hit if everyone else is. The amount we have to take a hit for is what should be in question; I don't think there should be a question at all about whether we should contribute to the rebuilding of the country.

Taking it out on major earners (of which there are not actually that many in our small little nation) will only lead to said "major earners" leaving and taking their tax money with them. Tax them proportionately, by all means, but this attitude (I'm not saying that this is what you're implying, Yupik, but it's a general thing) that we need to make higher earners suffer somehow is ridiculous.

Most of those mature students you are chastising did indeed have the opportunity to go to college...when there were third level fees and they couldn't afford them. Much like the students who may be forced to drop out/reconsider a third level education now if fees are brought back. Why should a 19 year old who is just out of school and wants to improve their job prospects be more entitled to an education than a 49 year old (who has potentially been made unemployed) who wants to try and improve their job prospects? I find that notion quite ageist.

We are not somehow more entitled to third level educations because we are young people.

Yupik wrote: »

Not necessarily. But I think that paying for the education of a 60/70 year old who will most likely never do anything with their degree is ridiculous. Sure, the chance should be offered to those who truly deserve it as mature students, with a more strict entry procedure, rather than applying through the CAO with a personal statement and getting a place. I know high demand degrees use interviews as a selection process, but some degrees don't even require an interview for mature students. Most, if not all mature students get their BTEA allowance then which AFAIK is more than the grant that regular students get.


Offer them their places, but don't pay for the entire degree if they're on their 2nd chance degree. One undergraduate degree is surely enough for any one person.

Paying for the education of a 60/70 year old is ridiculous? Aren't those people the taxpayers who have been paying for free fees since they were introduced? Surely logically a retired person who has worked all of their life is more than entitled to a degree, having paid for it in their taxes over their working life?
Why do mature students have to "deserve" it and we don't? Students all over the country are taking up college places because they thought they should go to college and picked something to do for three years. There are a lot of people in this country who do not care about their degrees and, quite frankly, have no real business being in college just so they can "have the craic" for three years. Yet you seem (correct me if I'm wrong) to be implying that those people somehow have a right to be in college because of their age and the fact that it's their first time in third level education.

amacachi

melekalikimaka wrote: »

lol... it would be less than the current amount it throws at students every year. the amount it pays colleges at the moment is sickening given the drop out rates

Just looking at how desperate colleges are to keep students on their books also makes me wondering how much oversight is actually involved. I "finished" college in September and asked them to remove my name from their books but it still hasn't happened. Soon it'll be at the point where I may not be able to go back next year without a loan. DCU was the same, took two trips to get them to let me get my name off their books. Ridiculous.

melekalikimaka

amacachi wrote: »

Just looking at how desperate colleges are to keep students on their books also makes me wondering how much oversight is actually involved. I "finished" college in September and asked them to remove my name from their books but it still hasn't happened. Soon it'll be at the point where I may not be able to go back next year without a loan. DCU was the same, took two trips to get them to let me get my name off their books. Ridiculous.

Once you go through the correct prceedure I don't think you will be penalised by errors on their part

amacachi

melekalikimaka wrote: »

Once you go through the correct prceedure I don't think you will be penalised by errors on their part

BAHAHAHA! You'd think that wouldn't you? :pac:

melekalikimaka

amacachi wrote: »

BAHAHAHA! You'd think that wouldn't you? :pac:

you should have a paper trail to support your case surely? and they still claim you did not follow proceedure correctly?

Screaminmidget

http://www.oxygen.ie/government_promises_no_new_college_fees_5000_tax_on_student_cards.PAGE4598.html

Jay P

Screaminmidget wrote: »

http://www.oxygen.ie/government_promises_no_new_college_fees_5000_tax_on_student_cards.PAGE4598.html

Luckily I already have my student card :pac:

amacachi

melekalikimaka wrote: »

you should have a paper trail to support your case surely? and they still claim you did not follow proceedure correctly?

There is no paper trail. When I dropped out of DCU their ineptness meant I missed out on 5 weeks of dole payments. If next year I want to go back to college (if things don't change) I've to be out for the previous 9 months to get anything. Again there's no paper trail, I just asked my tutor which apparently is proper procedure.
When it comes to social welfare there's only a paper trail when it suits them. Based on personal and near-family experience a conservative estimate would be that they lose 50% of everything handed in. Colleges on the other hand like to have no paper trail.

Pygmalion

Screaminmidget wrote: »

http://www.oxygen.ie/government_promises_no_new_college_fees_5000_tax_on_student_cards.PAGE4598.html

I hate when websites get a good idea for an article and then let someone with no writing ability or sense of humour write it.

Colm!

melekalikimaka wrote: »

again.

a loan system.

its very simple and works exceedingly well everywhere else in the world. just the irish expect it for free i guess

Isn't an opposition to the student loan system one of the main causes of the Occupy Wall Street movement? "exceedingly well" may be quite an overstatement

Fad

Colm! wrote: »

Isn't an opposition to the student loan system one of the main causes of the Occupy Wall Street movement? "exceedingly well" may be quite an overstatement

Private colleges can charge whatever they want, if there was no loan system, people who cant pay up front dont get to go.

The loan system is horrible in the sense that the loans wont ever go away, but if you want to go to a fancy college, it's the way to go.

It's by no means perfect, but it serves a purpose, public universities aren't that expensive over there.... (About 10ish grand a year? Depending where).

But again, America is a terrible example, it works fine in England.

Student Loans are the way to go.

We should definitely have to pay for our education; it shouldn't be our parents and it shouldn't be until we're out of college and no longer desperately scraping together enough money to live.

shadowninty

I personally think that primary and secondary education should ne free, with pre school and third level heavily subsidised by the state. I certainly don't want to pay fees - but the state is running at a loss of over 8% of our GDP, and the gap must be closed, and if its not college fees its hospitals or schools or transport that will suffer even more.
Hopefully in a few years things will get better and they can be reduced, but right now we simply are broke.

unknown13

shadowninty wrote: »

I personally think that primary and secondary education should ne free, with pre school and third level heavily subsidised by the state.

Thats pretty much how things are running at the moment. Pre-school isn't as heavily subsidised as Third level though.

shadowninty

unknown13 wrote: »

Thats pretty much how things are running at the moment. Pre-school isn't as heavily subsidised as Third level though.

Guess you haven't heard of (in)voluntary contributions or seen school book prices of late, then

Screaminmidget

Lads, how much is the grant?

Like on a week to week or monthly basis???

Salty

My mum told me we'd be pretty much fudged if the fees come back in..I don't think I'd be able to continue with college if they were reintroduced. We'd definitely be unable to afford both me and my brother anyway...

melekalikimaka

_meehan_ wrote: »

We'd definitely be unable to afford both me and my brother anyway...

summer work or part time job could easily cover the fees... just so you know... and a loan system that will almost certainly be introduced should more than cover the costs, moreso than now...

Pigwidgeon

melekalikimaka wrote: »

_meehan_ wrote: »

We'd definitely be unable to afford both me and my brother anyway...

summer work or part time job could easily cover the fees... just so you know... and a loan system that will almost certainly be introduced should more than cover the costs, moreso than now...

You say that like it's simple to find part time work or a summer job. I lost my job 2 years ago and while I've had other jobs since, it took me until June of this year to find anything that was anyway reliable and until September to find something that I have definite hours every week.

For the grant I think the adjacent rate is about €1200 for the year, the non adjacent about €3000. I'm not sure of the exact figures. That divided up isn't a huge amount weekly, last I was on full non-adjacent and once about €200 of it was gone towards books and stuff I think I had €40 or so a week.

If anyone is having problems with money I'd strongly suggest looking into the student assistance fund, if anything like DIT they'll be fast and efficient and do all they can to help you.

Grindylow

Its all well and easy for people like melekalikimaka to say introducing fees is a good idea, since you're finished college like. I'm sure it would be a different story if you were attending college now, on your first degree.

Salty

melekalikimaka wrote: »

summer work or part time job could easily cover the fees... just so you know... and a loan system that will almost certainly be introduced should more than cover the costs, moreso than now...

Lol and tell me, where are all these easy to come by jobs? I've been looking for a job for 2 years, and just managed to get my first job ever, for Christmas. It'll be gone in the New Year. I'm not guaranteed a job in the summer as hard as I'll try to get one.

shadowninty

Fees are fine when you have your parents driving beemers. Not so fine when your family lives month to month in the first place.

unknown13

I think people are estimating fees at in excess of €10k. That isn't necessarily the case. Tuition fees are €4k for Arts & Law degrees. Science and Engineering courses range from €6K to €8K. Only Medicine and Vet med, hit the €10K mark.

They are the current tuition fees. So, if fees came in they wouldn't be as severe as people think.

Grindylow wrote: »

Its all well and easy for people like melekalikimaka to say introducing fees is a good idea, since you're finished college like. I'm sure it would be a different story if you were attending college now, on your first degree.

I would accept this coming from anyone currently in college. However, some one not in college doesn't have a right to make this argument.

Grindylow

unknown13 wrote: »

I think people are estimating fees at in excess of €10k. That isn't necessarily the case. Tuition fees are €4k for Arts & Law degrees. Science and Engineering courses range from €6K to €8K. Only Medicine and Vet med, hit the €10K mark.

They are the current tuition fees. So, if fees came in they wouldn't be as severe as people think.



I would accept this coming from anyone currently in college. However, some one not in college doesn't have a right to make this argument.

Are you serious? I was in college. I know what the costs are because I paid them! I didn't get my grant/funding this year because I dropped out before they were paid to me, and I paid everything myself, so I surely know how the costs are. That's a ridiculous statement IMO.

And I certainly have the right to make any argument I want. You should know freedom of speech is a right considering what you're studying.

PseudoFamous

unknown13 wrote: »

I would accept this coming from anyone currently in college. However, some one not in college doesn't have a right to make this argument.

I like that one. "You're not in college so your point is invalid".


If I were to copypaste what he said, would it suddenly become a good argument, because I'm in college?

Your logic is flawed. It's either a good argument or it's not, and in this case, it certainly is. Melekimawhatevertherestis has benefited from college, and now that the financial changes won't affect him/her, they've decided "Yeah, cut the students, shur aren't they just being paid by my taxes anyway"

Lawliet

_meehan_ wrote: »

Lol and tell me, where are all these easy to come by jobs? I've been looking for a job for 2 years, and just managed to get my first job ever, for Christmas. It'll be gone in the New Year. I'm not guaranteed a job in the summer as hard as I'll try to get one.

Not to mention the amount of students who live in rural areas who have no cars or public transport, there's no local jobs and no way of getting to places where there are jobs. Easy enough to say 'get a job' when you're living with your parents in/ beside a city, try spending a summer job hunting in the middle of nowhere...

Duffy the Vampire Slayer

I really wonder what planet people who are still telling others to 'get a job' are living on.

Leftyflip

Duffy the Vampire Slayer wrote: »

I really wonder what planet people who are still telling others to 'get a job' are living on.

Ignorance or a high horse...

Salty

Lawliet wrote: »

Not to mention the amount of students who live in rural areas who have no cars or public transport, there's no local jobs and no way of getting to places where there are jobs. Easy enough to say 'get a job' when you're living with your parents in/ beside a city, try spending a summer job hunting in the middle of nowhere...

This is me all over, except I've managed to get a car. However, the cost of running and parking said car is substantial. It's a vicious circle tbh.

unknown13

We currently pay €2000 a year for one of the worlds best third level systems in the World. We have loads of universities in the top 300 in the word and we only pay €2000 a year. It isn't perfect but one thing it is, its value for money.

We have to find a level where the fees are low enough to make our universities high enough in the rankings that will allow for the most students to partake in third level education.

amacachi

melekalikimaka wrote: »

summer work or part time job could easily cover the fees... just so you know... and a loan system that will almost certainly be introduced should more than cover the costs, moreso than now...

7k for a few months' work? Hard enough getting 10 hours a week around here in fairness.

melekalikimaka

i funded 6k fees a year for 4 years, working summer and evenings, I still managed no problems and had a good bit of cash to spend on going out and the like , thats where i am coming from, i have been on the receiving end of the benefits and also the other side, and the otherside is not scary or impossible...

Grindylow

melekalikimaka wrote: »

i funded 6k fees a year for 4 years, working summer and evenings, I still managed no problems and had a good bit of cash to spend on going out and the like , thats where i am coming from, i have been on the receiving end of the benefits and also the other side, and the otherside is not scary or impossible...

Weird considering how I read one of your posts in Student Finance, wondering why you wouldn't get a grant for €5000, just because you were forking out "6000 euro in fees". You hardly expect the government to give you money because you're paying fees?


OH WAIT.. THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT YOU'RE SAYING THE OPPOSITE OF HERE. Strange how circumstances change when you're not involved, isn't it.

AdamD

unknown13 wrote: »

We currently pay €2000 a year for one of the worlds best third level systems in the World. We have loads of universities in the top 300 in the word and we only pay €2000 a year. It isn't perfect but one thing it is, its value for money.

We have to find a level where the fees are low enough to make our universities high enough in the rankings that will allow for the most students to partake in third level education.

What? We have 2

Salty

melekalikimaka wrote: »

i funded 6k fees a year for 4 years, working summer and evenings, I still managed no problems and had a good bit of cash to spend on going out and the like , thats where i am coming from, i have been on the receiving end of the benefits and also the other side, and the otherside is not scary or impossible...

Well then, well done to you for being able to find a job that gave you enough hours to do that! Not everyone is so lucky. And the way things are going, fewer and fewer people will be as lucky as you were.

Once my brother goes to college, the sh*t will hit the fan for my family. It would be all well and good for me to be able to save and pay my fees, but I also insure, tax, nct, and put petrol in my own car. Even now, I never go out, save for the odd night once or twice a month. I just can't afford it. My brother is planning on going to Limerick for primary teaching. The living expenses alone will be massive, with the fees on top of that. But my family would never in million years qualify for a grant or anything.

I dunno, we'll just have to wait and see what happens:(

melekalikimaka

Grindylow wrote: »

Weird considering how I read one of your posts in Student Finance, wondering why you wouldn't get a grant for €5000, just because you were forking out "6000 euro in fees". You hardly expect the government to give you money because you're paying fees?


OH WAIT.. THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT YOU'RE SAYING THE OPPOSITE OF HERE. Strange how circumstances change when you're not involved, isn't it.

hey if i could get a grant i would take it... free money is free money dude, doesn't really affect the debate

melekalikimaka

_meehan_ wrote: »

Well then, well done to you for being able to find a job that gave you enough hours to do that! Not everyone is so lucky. And the way things are going, fewer and fewer people will be as lucky as you were.

Once my brother goes to college, the sh*t will hit the fan for my family. It would be all well and good for me to be able to save and pay my fees, but I also insure, tax, nct, and put petrol in my own car. Even now, I never go out, save for the odd night once or twice a month. I just can't afford it. My brother is planning on going to Limerick for primary teaching. The living expenses alone will be massive, with the fees on top of that. But my family would never in million years qualify for a grant or anything.

I dunno, we'll just have to wait and see what happens:(

i did have the advantage of commuting from home to save living expenses

shadowninty

melekalikimaka wrote: »

hey if i could get a grant i would take it... free money is free money dude, doesn't really affect the debate

Surely thats taking advantage of those who really need government grants and services...

Aoibheann

Guys, stick to the debate here, and don't make it personal. I don't want to see people dragging up "dirt" on people using their posts in other forums. Keep to the topic at hand, and if you can't play nice, well, don't play at all.