restricted electrical works

cast_iron

robbie7730 wrote: »

So you tell me where do we draw the line so. A new circuit, a new DB, change MCB, fitting a plug, changing a bulb?

That's not an answer to my question.

A registered contractor should have fixed another registered contractors complete Fuck up?

Well it would be better to get someone who has insurance and proper equipment to do the job.

So if i ..... removing a piece of cable, and replacing it with a new piece, .... should that be illegal? If you still think that, then you bringing how much i charged into it was pointless.

That's really what you are asking with some floury words. Well, no is the answer. But I don't think the new rules are stating that.

Should i call a contractor the next time i want to fit a new socket in my house?

The right way of doing it would be to. Obviously practicality would most likely dictate otherwise.

Im guessing you never did a "nixer" as you call it, in your entire life. Maybe not.

What I've done in my life is neither here nor there to the merits of my argument. My words here speak for themselves, and saying I have this viewpoint because you think I might never have done a nixer is unfair and uncalled for.

paddymick

M cebee wrote: »

the registered guys:
have their work monitored ,
have insurance,
have test instruments calibrated,
upskill on training courses,
have copy of rules
customer has recourse to reci/ecssa in case of wiring issues

+1

pointless really though considering half the new work is carried out by non registered guys buying certs and the registered guys can do what they like and sign off

Thats one thing I would refuse point blank to do,I wouldnt even give a cert to a best mate even though i`d know his work is 100%.


And jaysus listening to most fellas on here you would think going out and setting yourself up the right way by getting registered and having insurance automatically puts you into the bad category.I never realised only non registered lads put a bit of passion into their work and us registered lads will go in and cut any corner we can just to try make some money....Well ive never worked like that and thats probably why my phone still rings every day.

2011

M cebee wrote: »

there should only have been one organization- reci

Why would you prefer a complete monopoly?

The ECSSA only exist because in court it was successfully demonstrated that RECI had treated an electrical contractor unfairly.
As a consequence this electrical contractor then set up the ECSSA.

2011

M cebee wrote: »

the registered guys:
have their work monitored

Speaking as an ex-electrical contractor I don't agree with this statement.
In theory their work is monitored, in practice it is not as the electrical contractor can decide which installations are inspected.
The only exception is when a customer demands an inspection from the ECSSA or RECI. This is quite rare and in general the customer has little or no electrical experience and therefore they generally don't know if work has been done to a poor standard or not.

My own experience with trying to get a registered electrical contractor to comply with regulations was very negitive. When I called an RECI inspector to a new house I had bought in my opinion he did not enforce the electrical contractor to comply with some of the regulations that he had clearly broken. He did get him to fix the some of the easier to fix breaches of ET101.

Boradly speaking I would agree with Cast Iron's position.

M cebee

2011 wrote: »

M cebee wrote: »

there should only have been one organization- reci

Why would you prefer a complete monopoly?

The ECSSA only exist because in court it was successfully demonstrated that RECI had treated an electrical contractor unfairly.
As a consequence this electrical contractor then set up the ECSSA.

im all for competition but not here

2011

M cebee wrote: »

im all for competition but not here

.......and the reason is???

M cebee

2011 wrote: »

M cebee wrote: »

im all for competition but not here

.......and the reason is???

maybe you could list the benefits of competition here

Bruthal

cast_iron wrote: »

That's not an answer to my question.

Its the same thing, you asked where does it stop. I said a qualified person cant wire a circuit in for their parents, or in their own house. You asking where does the line get drawn doesnt change that.

Well it would be better to get someone who has insurance and proper equipment to do the job.

I think its likely that contractors during the boom were wiring houses as fast as they could. Quality was secondary. If the sockets work, that will do. Passing tests, which contractors do themselves, doesnt mean its a good job. And a badly installed circuit can pass any electrical tests.

That's really what you are asking with some floury words. Well, no is the answer. But I don't think the new rules are stating that.

The new rules are not stating that, no, but its the first step in a progression toward only having contractors doing anything. So where do we draw the line so? Contractor to change a main fuse?

I tested the circuit mentioned, from the DB, after re connecting the earth the contractors left out at the socket. That is against these rules now probably, for non contractors.

The right way of doing it would be to. Obviously practicality would most likely dictate otherwise.

I can guarantee i will do a better job in my own house, and others, than most contractors. Do you know why? Firstly, im not an apprentice getting sent in on behalf of the contractor. Secondly, i have a very high conscience for good quality work, even if that means it takes longer. A contractors preference is to get in and out as fast as possible. You might dispute that. But thats only my own standard, from my own point of view. Plenty of qualified non contractors people are rough as well.

What I've done in my life is neither here nor there to the merits of my argument. My words here speak for themselves, and saying I have this viewpoint because you think I might never have done a nixer is unfair and uncalled for.

Probably, but you suggested earlier that a contractor should have fixed next doors dangerous problem, because they would have the proper equipment. Where as i used a scissors and a roll of insulating tape of course.

The real facts are, the electrical trade is gone, and its a matter of shoring up whats left of it, for benefits which are not really about safety.

Bruthal

2011 wrote: »

Boradly speaking I would agree with Cast Iron's position.

I see that.

Will you call in a contractor to replace an MCB on a relatives DB? Or will you take the terrible risk of replacing it yourself, and hope you did it right?

Again, id say on average, you would do a better job of installing a new shower in a relatives house, than an unknown contractor would.

2011

M cebee wrote: »

maybe you could list the benefits of competition here

You want me to list the benifits of competition? There are not enough hours in the day.


But I will give you a few:
1) If customers (electrical contractors) are not happy with one organisation they can move to the other

2) When there was just RECI they could make up any rules that they wanted and an electrical contractor either complied or gave up electrical contracting. This would be regardless of how fair the rules were.

3) Both organisations are in competition with each other for members. Therefore they are both striving to attract electrical contractors by providing better value for money and better customer service.


For a good example of how competition helps, look at Ryan Air and what they have done for prices of flying across all of the airlines.

Perhaps you could explain to me what the downside of competition is, because I can't see it.

2011

robbie7730 wrote: »

I see that.

Will you call in a contractor to replace an MCB on a relatives DB? Or will you take the terrible risk of replacing it yourself, and hope you did it right?

Again, id say on average, you would do a better job of installing a new shower in a relatives house, than an unknown contractor would.

I think that you would do a great job of replacing an MCB, but I feel that electrical work should in general be carried out by registered electrical contractors or at least be carried out by a qualified electrician and checked by an independant inspector.

....and before you ask I agree that the system in place does not work.

I think its likely that contractors during the boom were wiring houses as fast as they could. Quality was secondary. If the sockets work, that will do. Passing tests, which contractors do themselves, doesnt mean its a good job.

Agree 100%

M cebee

2011 wrote: »

You want me to list the benifits of competition? There are not enough hours in the day.


But I will give you a few:
1) If customers (electrical contractors) are not happy with one organisation they can move to the other

2) When there was just RECI they could make up any rules that they wanted and an electrical contractor either complied or gave up electrical contracting. This would be regardless of how fair the rules were.

3) Both orgaisations had to be more compeditive with their pricing.

4) Both organisations are in competition with each other for members. Therefore they are both striving to attract electrical contractors by providing better value for money.


I could go on, but I have to get back to work.

For a good example of how competition helps, look at Ryan Air and what they have done for prices of flying across all of the airlines.

Perhaps you could explain to me what the downside of competition is, because I can't see it.

i think you've answered your own question as i expected you would!

competition here benefits the contractor

as you have stated many times yourself the overriding concern should be the consumer

2011

M cebee wrote: »

i think you've answered your own question as i expected you would!

competition here benefits the contractor

as you have stated many times yourself the overriding concern should be the consumer

Sorry I thought your question was how did competition benifit the electrical contractor. To answer how does it benifit the end user try this:

For a good example of how competition helps, look at Ryan Air and what they have done for prices of flying across all of the airlines.

2011

M cebee I would be interested in knowing:

1) Would you agree that a benifit for the contractor is good?
2) Would you agree that if the contractor's overheads are less then the it is possible to charge less for the same work? Thus generating more affordable work
3) What is the downside of competition? I have listed some advantages for the end user and electrical contractor

M cebee

you've lost me 2011- your ryanair analogy doesn't make sense

consumers are the main concern in these matters

not contractors

2011

M cebee wrote: »

you've lost me 2011- your ryanair analogy doesn't make sense

consumers are the main concern in these matters

not contractors

Agreed, lets focus on customers:
My point is competition drives prices down. That is what Ryan Air did for the airline industry.

So I ask again what is the downside of competition?

M cebee

all you've confirmed 2011,is that:

it's handy for the contractor to be able to choose either reci or ecssa

and that they have to compete on price for members

2011

M cebee wrote: »

and that they have to compete on price for members

.....and less overheads makes it possible to charge customers less.

Please explain the downside to competition

.G.

Getting in a registered contractor in to do work over a Nixer is in itself no guarantee that the work will be done to a good safe standard but it does give you some recourse as a consumer.

If this about bringing higher standards to the industry then they should remove a contractors ability to certify his own work.Job done.Then we might see the gradual disappearance of the lone ranger types.

If however ,as i suspect,this is about ring fencing what little work there is out there just for registered lads(both good and bad) it will fail miserable as its impossible to police.

M cebee

2011 wrote: »

.....and less overheads makes it possible to charge customers less.

Please explain the downside to competition

sure

when copper comes down in price work will also be cheaper

we're talking competition in 'REGULATORY BODIES' here

not airline ticket prices

Bruthal

superg wrote: »

Getting in a registered contractor in to do work over a Nixer is in itself no guarantee that the work will be done to a good safe standard but it does give you some recourse as a consumer.

If this about bringing higher standards to the industry then they should remove a contractors ability to certify his own work.Job done.Then we might see the gradual disappearance of the lone ranger types.

If however ,as i suspect,this is about ring fencing what little work there is out there just for registered lads(both good and bad) it will fail miserable as its impossible to police.

Ring fencing is all this is about.

As the rule stands according to this thread, a person can spur from a socket circuit now.

So is looping off an existing socket circuit safer for a qualified electrician to do (from the consumers perspective), than coming from a new circuit in the DB? Or is this just the first step in making it illegal for a quallified electrician to do any work, except on behalf of a registered fella, who often wont see the work being done, but is happy to certify?

2011

superg wrote: »

Getting in a registered contractor in to do work over a Nixer is in itself no guarantee that the work will be done to a good safe standard but it does give you some recourse as a consumer.

If this about bringing higher standards to the industry then they should remove a contractors ability to certify his own work.Job done.Then we might see the gradual disappearance of the lone ranger types.

+1

If however ,as i suspect,this is about ring fencing what little work there is out there just for registered lads(both good and bad) it will fail miserable as its impossible to police.

That is exactly what they are trying to do. My very first post on this thread was pointing out that this can never be policed.

Bruthal

Come with us please, your under arrest on suspicion of replacing a dangerous RCD.

2011

I remember just before RECI was up and running being told that once they were in place the nixer trade would be confined to the history books. Didn't really happen though!

M cebee

2011 wrote: »

Agreed, lets focus on customers:
My point is competition drives prices down. That is what Ryan Air did for the airline industry.

So I ask again what is the downside of competition?

i'll help you out here 2011

as you pointed out competition between the regulatory bodies is advantageous for contractors

among the downsides i can think of are

-the large influx of unsuitable contractors

-lack of enforcement

-diminution of standards

2011

M cebee wrote: »

i'll help you out here 2011

as you pointed out competition between the regulatory bodies is advantageous for contractors

....and for customers. Remember the customers are far more important.

among the downsides i can think of are

-the large influx of unsuitable contractors

Please explain how having a monolopy in place prevents this from happening.
Are you suggesting that the ECSSA has unsitable contractors and RECI does not?

My belief is that both organisations have unsuitable electrical contractors as members.
When RECI had a monolopy there were still very unsuitable contractors operating.

-lack of enforcement

I agree 100% that there is an enforcement issue.
Please explain why having a monolopy would fix this. There was an enforcement issue before the ECSSA.
My belief is that there are some RECI and ECSSA contractors breaking regulations all of the time.

-diminution of standards

Again I agree that standards have dropped and my answer is the same as the point above.

The answer that I was looking for was one that explained why competition is a bad thing.
All you have done is highlight genuine problems that exist in the industry but they are not caused by competition.

M cebee

i've done my best to explain it for you 2011

competition is good generally but not always

Bruthal

Standards have dropped because the massive demand for electricians in the building surge meant that anyone that could drill holes and put in anchors would do. I still say a high percentage of electricians dont have a good grasp of the technical basics. Once you can wire a few sockets and lights, and they worked, your sorted, or at least were a couple of years ago.

I was on a site in 1996, and the foreman wanted a dol starter made up from the parts. A fella i know did it, and most others on the site where astonished at this fella`s expertise. Enough said there i think.

M cebee

2011 wrote: »

....and for customers. Remember the customers are far more important.


Please explain how having a monolopy in place prevents this from happening.
Are you suggesting that the ECSSA has unsitable contractors and RECI does not?

My belief is that both organisations have unsuitable electrical contractors as members.
When RECI had a monolopy there were still very unsuitable contractors operating.



I agree 100% that there is an enforcement issue.
Please explain why having a monolopy would fix this. There was an enforcement issue before the ECSSA.
My belief is that there are some RECI and ECSSA contractors breaking regulations all of the time.



Again I agree that standards have dropped and my answer is the same as the point above.

The answer that I was looking for was one that explained why competition is a bad thing.
All you have done is highlight genuine problems that exist in the industry but they are not caused by competition.

i note your belated concern for customers(consumers) here

however you haven't been able to point out any benefit to customer(consumer)

except for the knock-on effect of possible cheaper subscriptions etc!

2011

So you conceed that there is an advantage to having competition - Lower prices for electrical contractors and their customers


You have also highlighted many issues that the industry has suffered from before and after the RECI monolopy. Therfore clearly these issues are not as a result of competition.


By the way I agree with you that the problems you raised exist and are evry serious. What I don't agree on is that competition caused them to exist. The structure we have in place at present allows this to happen. Going back to the days of a monolopy will not solve this. In my opinion self certification is to blame for this mess we find ourselves in.