Met Eireann mixing SI and Imperial units

Iwannahurl

Met Eireann still uses Imperial units, and often mixes SI with Imperial in the same report, which I find irritating, confusing, outdated and unscientific.

See for example: http://www.met.ie/forecasts/coastal.asp

Why do they still do that, I wonder, this far into the 21st Century?

Solair

I find that quite weird too. They should stick to SI units for the public service broadcast stuff. If they want to do knots as an alternate unit, fine, but nobody knows what they mean other than sailors and pilots.

I mean, even MPH would have more meaning to the average person if they were going to use imperial.

Iwannahurl

I'd prefer if they were consistent and SI only.

By mixing them up, or by using Imperial at all, they are only prolonging this country's glacially slow adoption of SI and Metric.

"Buoy M5, 50 kilometres off the Wexford Coast, visibility greater than 10 miles, wave height 3.5 metres..."

It's just daft, IMO.

gbee

Iwannahurl wrote: »

Why do they still do that, I wonder, this far into the 21st Century?

You answered your own question, it is for the benefit of the international community who are travelling on the high seas and in the air.

Seafarers and airmen have developed a language all to themselves, and it is still in operation, English has become the universal language for talking to air traffic control and so on.

They mix nautical miles and kilometres and knots because the people who are their target understand these things.

Even the newest aircraft in the world today still uses feet for its altitude, it's partly hereditary, partly universal evolution and partly a safety phenomenon ~ only seemingly strange to people not in the 'industry'.

A simple example, recently I bought a two inch pipe it was way too big, as it was a 40mm pipe measured from the inside diameter whereas I wanted a pipe to fit inside a two inch aperture ~ whilst a vessel at sea might have time to figure out all these things, your pilot might not.

gbee

Iwannahurl wrote: »

By mixing them up, or by using Imperial at all, they are only prolonging this country's glacially slow adoption of SI and Metric..

A totally unacceptable criticism.

Su Campu

I think it is strange that on TV and radio they give windspeeds in km/h, but on their website they're still in knots. They do, however, release their synops in m/s, whereas many other European countries still use knots. Their metars are in knots, as is the lingua franca in aviation.

The buoy reports in miles are purely for marine purposes I would imagine, as that is used in that field.

If you look at other countries' systems, some do mix them up aswell. It's not just confined to Ireland.

Iwannahurl

gbee wrote: »

You answered your own question, it is for the benefit of the international community who are travelling on the high seas and in the air.

Seafarers and airmen have developed a language all to themselves, and it is still in operation, English has become the universal language for talking to air traffic control and so on.

They mix nautical miles and kilometres and knots because the people who are their target understand these things.

Even the newest aircraft in the world today still uses feet for its altitude, it's partly hereditary, partly universal evolution and partly a safety phenomenon ~ only seemingly strange to people not in the 'industry'.

A simple example, recently I bought a two inch pipe it was way too big, as it was a 40mm pipe measured from the inside diameter whereas I wanted a pipe to fit inside a two inch aperture ~ whilst a vessel at sea might have time to figure out all these things, your pilot might not.

So mixing up different units in the same report aids clarity, especially for pilots?

http://mars.jpl.nasa.gov/msp98/news/mco990930.html

Iwannahurl

gbee wrote: »

A totally unacceptable criticism.

Let me clarify: state bodies or other institutions who continue to promote the use of Imperial units are, IMO, helping to delay the full adoption of Metric.

Ireland has been officially metric since the early 1970s, IIRC. Yet I still hear primary school children talking about weight, height and distance, for example, in Imperial units. Makes me wonder what codology they are subjected to in school on a daily basis.

I had a Dept of Education official explain to me a while back that schoolchildren need to be taught Imperial measurements in school because it's a cultural phenomenon that cannot be ignored. She then went on to show her ignorance of reality by referring to alleged real-world Irish examples. Here's her exact words:

"pints of milk/beer
gallons of diesel/petrol
lbs of meat or sausages or butter
weight is commonly quoted in stones and pounds
distance quote in miles"

I kid you not. You'd swear she hadn't been in an Irish shop since the 1970s!

gbee

Iwannahurl wrote: »

I kid you not. You'd swear she hadn't been in an Irish shop since the 1970s!

I can take your broader argument and actually agree ~ But in this weather forum and singling out Met Eireann for what is International practice, is still, IMO unfair.

Su Campu

Iwannahurl wrote: »

So mixing up different units in the same report aids clarity, especially for pilots?

http://mars.jpl.nasa.gov/msp98/news/mco990930.html

I can assure you pilots don't rely on weather reports from the met.ie website. Met Éireann have their own Pilot Briefing service, in which they issue all the usual station reports in Metar format, as well as metars for all the airports around the country. I use this service all the time and it is very good.They issue all their aviation data in the standard WMO units of knots for windspeeds, metres/kilometres for visibilities, feet for cloud bases, and hPa for pressure. This you will find in most countries of the world, and is the official format laid down by the WMO.

The USA have their own unique aviation standard coding formats, such as statute miles for visibility and inches of mercury for pressure. THAT is unacceptable in my opinion, as it is at odds with most of the rest of the world, and is not in the WMO's official metar guidelines. Also, Russia use metres for altitude, so a plane flying from Europe to Russia must change their altitude scale in mid air.

Conor30

Iwannahurl wrote: »

Let me clarify: state bodies or other institutions who continue to promote the use of Imperial units are, IMO, helping to delay the full adoption of Metric.

Ireland has been officially metric since the early 1970s, IIRC. Yet I still hear primary school children talking about weight, height and distance, for example, in Imperial units. Makes me wonder what codology they are subjected to in school on a daily basis.

I had a Dept of Education official explain to me a while back that schoolchildren need to be taught Imperial measurements in school because it's a cultural phenomenon that cannot be ignored. She then went on to show her ignorance of reality by referring to alleged real-world Irish examples. Here's her exact words:

"pints of milk/beer
gallons of diesel/petrol
lbs of meat or sausages or butter
weight is commonly quoted in stones and pounds
distance quote in miles"

I kid you not. You'd swear she hadn't been in an Irish shop since the 1970s!

You say "I still hear primary school children talking about weight, height and distance, for example, in Imperial units. Makes me wonder what codology they are subjected to in school on a daily basis."
It's very clear then that you're not a teacher because you haven't a clue. Schools don't teach imperial measurements at all and haven't done so since the early 1970s. They very reason why children and also older people today still use imperial measures for height (feet and inches), weight (stones and lbs) and miles etc is because that's still what is used colloquially and that is what the children are hearing at home.
What's wrong with what the department official said? I'd agree with her. Although I favour metric of course, I feel children should be educated on what imperial measures are and why they are still used by some. They ARE a cultural phenomenon.
Sometimes, to see people's reaction, I've used metric to quote my weight and height and the strange looks you get (even from young people in their 20s, people who would have learnt ONLY metric at school) are hilarious. This is because the norm in Ireland is to use imperial for height and weight (outside of the classroom), in contrast with mainland Europe.
Schools should be just as much in the business of helping children make sense of the world around them as trying to engineer social change (such as promoting metric units). As a child, I remember being initially confounded as to why everything in school was all kgs, kms and metres, while everything outside in my everyday experience was stones, pounds, miles, feet etc. Children should be taught about these, how they're old measures that we have been phasing out.

"pints of milk/beer
gallons of diesel/petrol
lbs of meat or sausages or butter
weight is commonly quoted in stones and pounds
distance quoted in miles"

These are still used colloquially by many people, whether you like it or not.

ardmacha

They very reason why children and also older people today still use imperial measures for height (feet and inches), weight (stones and lbs) and miles etc is because that's still what is used colloquially and that is what the children are hearing at home.

The weights is not only what people are hearing at home. The government website Safefood.eu does not have any metric measures whatsoever in its ads or on its website. Likewise RTE never mention a Kg in the context of a person's weight. These people are abusing public money by thwarting government policy almost a half century after the government decided to change.

Conor30

ardmacha wrote: »

The weights is not only what people are hearing at home. The government website Safefood.eu does not have any metric measures whatsoever in its ads or on its website. Likewise RTE never mention a Kg in the context of a person's weight. These people are abusing public money by thwarting government policy almost a half century after the government decided to change.

As for Safefood, can you show me an example of this, as I can't see any on their site. They seem to use few measurements at all, and where they do, they appear to use both systems (which is fair enough).

I don't know about RTE.

In any case, children are hearing imperial measures in their daily lives all around them. Therefore, they need to know about them.

I was never educated in feet, inches, yards, ounces and pounds and it's occasionally been a bit of a handicap, to be honest. I probably should have been.

I've sometimes suspected the unquestioning enthusiastic embrace of metric units by officialdom in Ireland was as much politically motivated as it was a love for the base 10. Just like the rash decision to jump into the Euro currency when, arguably, it didn't suit us economically, maybe it was move to become more 'European'. Originally, the Imperial system was, after all, British.

gbee

Conor30 wrote: »

I was never educated in feet, inches, ounces and pounds and it's occasionally been a bit of a handicap, to be honest. I probably should have been.

I don't think so. Different measure values, fractions that don't make good percentages, several different measuring scales, some accurate to a defined number and then the scale must be changed and so on.

Metric is simpler ~ IMO, though perhaps TOO simple. I'd like my gallon back, I'd settle for 5lt and there are just far tooo many kilometres ~ makes the journey seem longer.

A standard system is the goal, no matter what it is. I was beaten around the classroom over these stupid imperial things, never made sense to me ~ 14 in one, 16 in another, 28 somewhere else, 12 is one, one is 240, leagues, perches, rod .... slewth

ardmacha

As for Safefood, can you show me an example of this, as I can't see any on their site.

e.g. http://weigh2live.safefood.eu/planandtrack/tools/weight.asp

even their food pyramid is full of oz, pints and other imperialism.


While their next event is
Counting up the pounds-the economic cost of obesity

They do good work in terms of food hygiene etc, but they also have a clear anti metric agenda.

Conor30

gbee wrote: »

I don't think so. Different measure values, fractions that don't make good percentages, several different measuring scales, some accurate to a defined number and then the scale must be changed and so on.

Metric is simpler ~ IMO, though perhaps TOO simple. I'd like my gallon back, I'd settle for 5lt and there are just far tooo many kilometres ~ makes the journey seem longer.

A standard system is the goal, no matter what it is. I was beaten around the classroom over these stupid imperial things, never made sense to me ~ 14 in one, 16 in another, 28 somewhere else, 12 is one, one is 240, leagues, perches, rod .... slewth

The sentence in bold doesn't make sense to me.

Anyway, if I am to paraphrase you correctly (your post was confusing), you're saying that metric is better and more useful than imperial, so therefore we should use metric. Is that it?

If that's what you're saying, erm, then, yes we know that. That's stating the obvious. :rolleyes: My point is that children should be educated about some of the more useful imperial measures that they're going to be meeting in their everyday lives and how they fit into the scheme of things, as well as helping them understand why we have moved over to the metric system for its inherent benefits.

Conor30

ardmacha wrote: »

e.g. http://weigh2live.safefood.eu/planandtrack/tools/weight.asp

even their food pyramid is full of oz, pints and other imperialism.


While their next event is
Counting up the pounds-the economic cost of obesity

They do good work in terms of food hygiene etc, but they also have a clear anti metric agenda.

Erm, that's called a PUN. Pounds = money. That's a play on words, often used in titles and headlines.

As for the food pyramid, I agree it's very odd that they don't also have one in metric but maybe this reflects how widespread imperial measures still are in people's everyday lives (especially people in their 30s or 40s upwards). There should be a metric version though of course.

gbee

Conor30 wrote: »

If that's what you're saying, erm, then, yes we know that. That's stating the obvious. :rolleyes: .

Yes, I'm glad you found it confusing and as you were never brought up in this in school ~ believe me it was confusing ~

I don't think children need to be educated further in imperial measures, as part of history and antiquity and the understanding that there are and were different measures ~ some based on the stride of a man, others on the stride of a walking horse, a galloping horse and a diving bird ~ sure it's history, evolution and fun.

But common language is just that ~ my pet peeve is the weight loss ~ see I never understood the bounds and ounces and stones ~ even if a leather and a cane were used to make me understand them.

I see weigh warnings on lifts and hoists and I know three of me is the regulation as I know I'm 100K and the limit is 300K or five persons ~ well that's just four persons with me or three like me or two only if heavier ~ problem is most people know their weight in hamburgers so they happily overload the lifts.

But I think this should be moved to after hours TBH ~ it's transgressed the weather aspect by a good bit IMO.

I'm really glad you were confused by my sentence, it was designed to be so ~ people who knew the imperial system will get a laugh form it, I'm sure.

Well, that's me, this subject is not worth arguing over, thanks, I'm out.

Conor30

gbee wrote: »

Yes, I'm glad you found it confusing and as you were never brought up in this in school ~ believe me it was confusing ~

I don't think children need to be educated further in imperial measures, as part of history and antiquity and the understanding that there are and were different measures ~ some based on the stride of a man, others on the stride of a walking horse, a galloping horse and a diving bird ~ sure it's history, evolution and fun.

But common language is just that ~ my pet peeve is the weight loss ~ see I never understood the bounds and ounces and stones ~ even if a leather and a cane were used to make me understand them.

I see weigh warnings on lifts and hoists and I know three of me is the regulation as I know I'm 100K and the limit is 300K or five persons ~ well that's just four persons with me or three like me or two only if heavier ~ problem is most people know their weight in hamburgers so they happily overload the lifts.

But I think this should be moved to after hours TBH ~ it's transgressed the weather aspect by a good bit IMO.

I'm really glad you were confused by my sentence, it was designed to be so ~ people who knew the imperial system will get a laugh form it, I'm sure.

Well, that's me, this subject is not worth arguing over, thanks, I'm out.

WTF??? Like seriously! And what's with all the tildas ~ ??? :rolleyes:

It was your English and reluctance to write clearly in a manner that other posters would understand that was making your sentence difficult to understand and it has nothing to do with imperial measurements.

Different measure values, fractions that don't make good percentages, several different measuring scales, some accurate to a defined number and then the scale must be changed and so on
I presume you meant (in standard English): Imperial has different values of measure, fractions that aren't convertible to percentages, several different measuring scales, some of which are accurate to a defined number while sometimes the scale itself has to be changed, etc.

If you actually read people's posts before attempting to argue with them, it help prevent you from shooting your mouth off. If you read what I said, some of the imperial measure are still in use and only those that are still somewhat useful and have relevance to today should be presented to children. Many of those measures you've referred to are no longer used by anybody. And I said they should educated about them...I never said they should have years and years of learning them. I'm only talking about a couple of lessons at most.
I bet if you walked into any primary school classroom today and asked a group of 10-year-olds what their height and weight is, most of them, if not all of them, would reply to you in imperial measures, as they equally would for foot /shoe size. This is in spite of never having never been instructed in them at school. This means they are still using them!
Thanks for your contribution though; it's been most valuable. Have fun!

homolumo

Unscientific therefore Met Eireann should not be doing it.

Conor30

homolumo wrote: »

Unscientific therefore Met Eireann should not be doing it.

It's more clumsy, rather than unscientific, to be mixing two systems in the one weather report.

thetonynator

Iwannahurl wrote: »

Met Eireann still uses Imperial units, and often mixes SI with Imperial in the same report, which I find irritating, confusing, outdated and unscientific.

See for example: http://www.met.ie/forecasts/coastal.asp

Why do they still do that, I wonder, this far into the 21st Century?

They do provide a conversions page on their website if it annoys you that much.

Cú Giobach

It is all a bit mad indeed, Personally I think of long distances in miles, short ones in meters/cms etc, speed in kph, height in feet, peoples weights in stone & pounds but dogs weights in kilos, liquids in litres & pints, would feel odd asking the butcher for a kilo of sausages but not for a kilo of beef, and on and on.....with a little bit of this and that, here and there.
I do think having to do quick conversions in your head regularly, can only be good for the grey matter and regarding met.ie, it all makes sense depending on who the forecast is aimed at.

Iwannahurl

gbee wrote: »

I can take your broader argument and actually agree ~ But in this weather forum and singling out Met Eireann for what is International practice, is still, IMO unfair.

International practice? Really?

Here are a few weather reports I have just found online, more or less at random:

http://english.wunderground.com/cgi-bin/findweather/getForecast?query=davao
Visibility 10.0 kilometers
Clouds
Scattered Clouds 487 m
Mostly Cloudy 2743 m
Overcast 8839 m

http://www.falsterbofagelstation.se/news/newspage.php
Present weather (at SMHI's Weather Station, Falsterbo Lighthouse):
Cloud cover 7/8
Wind NE 2m/s
Temperature 1.9C
Visibility 5km
Air pressure 1034,2 hPsc

http://en.ilmatieteenlaitos.fi/weather/Oulu
Oulu local weather
Temperature 5.4 °C
Wind from the south-west 7 m/s
Wind gust 8 m/s
Pressure 1008.4 hPa
Visibility over 20 km

http://www.kulturretur.dk/om-landene/irland
Dublin
Spredte skyer
Temperatur: 15 °C
Vind: Sydøst, 29.6 km/t
Tryk: 1023 hPa
Rel. fugtighed: 77 %
Sigtbarhed: 10 km

http://www.klepprc.no/aggregator/sources/3
Stavanger / Sola
Scattered clouds
Temperature: 5 °C
Wind: South-Southeast, 1.9 km/h
Pressure: 1034 hPa
Visibility: 6 km

http://www.elobservador.com.uy/tiempo/
Temperatura 21º
Sensación Térmica 21º
Viento 13 km/h
Presión Atmosférica 1016.0 hPa
Visibilidad 10 km

It seems that it is possible to have routine weather reports in SI/metric units only without planes falling out of the sky.

Met Eireann may have the option of using Imperial units according to international practice, but other countries apparently get along fine without resorting to antiquated and unrelated measures liked Feet, Knots and Nautical Miles.

My point is a simple one: mixing units is both unnecessary and confusing, and all it does is continue to promote the older units in public consciousness.

Su Campu

Eh, instead of quoting private weather sites, why not actually look at the national met services of various countries, or better still, the official WMO guidelines. Any site can decode coded reports into any format they like, and if they want to use speed units of furlongs per fortnight then there's nothing stopping them! You're comparing apples and oranges!

Regarding the "unscientific" or "clumsy" arguments: official international practice, as laid down by the WMO, states that in aviation reports, visibilities shall be in km while cloud bases in feet! So if anyone has a problem, they should be contacting Geneva, not Glasnevin.

Iwannahurl

Su Campu wrote: »

I can assure you pilots don't rely on weather reports from the met.ie website. Met Éireann have their own Pilot Briefing service, in which they issue all the usual station reports in Metar format, as well as metars for all the airports around the country. I use this service all the time and it is very good.They issue all their aviation data in the standard WMO units of knots for windspeeds, metres/kilometres for visibilities, feet for cloud bases, and hPa for pressure. This you will find in most countries of the world, and is the official format laid down by the WMO. (1)

The USA have their own unique aviation standard coding formats, such as statute miles for visibility and inches of mercury for pressure. THAT is unacceptable in my opinion, as it is at odds with most of the rest of the world (2), and is not in the WMO's official metar guidelines. Also, Russia use metres for altitude, so a plane flying from Europe to Russia must change their altitude scale in mid air.

1. I beg to differ. AFAIK the WMO do not require Imperial units for certain purposes. TTBOMK they leave it to "national practice" to determine what units are used:

The units for measuring and reporting meteorological quantities for aeronautical purposes are the same as for other applications, except that:
(a) Surface wind speed may be measured and reported in metres per second, kilometres per hour or knots [1]; and wind direction reported in degrees measured clockwise from geographic north (see section 2.2.1);
(b) Cloud base height may be measured in metres or feet.

The choice of units is a matter for national practice, depending on the requirements of the aviation regulatory bodies.

[1] The unit of wind speed used is determined by national decision. However, the primary unit prescribed by the Technical Regulations, Volume II (WMO, 2004) for wind speed is the kilometre per hour, with the knot permitted for use as a nonSI alternative unit until a termination date is decided – subject to a decision which is currently under review by ICAO.

Measurements and Observations at Aeronautical Meteorological Stations, WMO

Altitude/elevation is a different matter however, and more ramified.

2. It ain't called Imperial for nothin'! My hunch is that US influence or even dominance in aviation is the reason for continued use of Feet when referring to altitude and elevation. Annex 5 of the Convention on International Civil Aviation (Units of Measurement to be Used in Air and Ground Operations, Table 3-3) refers to "non-SI alternative units permitted for temporary use with the SI": the the nautical mile, the foot and the knot. It seems that the issue of a single universal unit of altitude measurement is still controversial, despite the risks associated with "operations at the interface between airspaces where different units of measurement are used". Apparently the dual use of SI and non-SI units was "directly responsible for one catastrophic mid-air collision" but I can't find the specific incident this refers to. Dual use also seems to be causing difficulties with implementation of RVSM in some quarters.

http://www.icao.int/icao/en/assembl/a35/wp/wp165_en.pdf
http://www.icao.int/icao/en/ro/apac/2007/rvsm_tf30/wp11.pdf
http://www.icao.int/Hyperdocs/display.cfm?V=2&name=AN Min. 167-11&Lang=E

HugoBradyBrown

Iwannahurl wrote: »

Let me clarify: state bodies or other institutions who continue to promote the use of Imperial units are, IMO, helping to delay the full adoption of Metric.

Ireland has been officially metric since the early 1970s, IIRC. Yet I still hear primary school children talking about weight, height and distance, for example, in Imperial units. Makes me wonder what codology they are subjected to in school on a daily basis.

I had a Dept of Education official explain to me a while back that schoolchildren need to be taught Imperial measurements in school because it's a cultural phenomenon that cannot be ignored. She then went on to show her ignorance of reality by referring to alleged real-world Irish examples. Here's her exact words:

"pints of milk/beer
gallons of diesel/petrol
lbs of meat or sausages or butter
weight is commonly quoted in stones and pounds
distance quote in miles"

I kid you not. You'd swear she hadn't been in an Irish shop since the 1970s!

The funny thing is that if one goes into a food shop in France and chooses to buy a half kilo of, say cheese or pâté, you will stand out as an oddity if you ask for it as that, or a half-kilogram, and will possibly get laughed right out of the shop as a pedant. Every housewife around you, more than two centuries after the imposition of the metric system on the unwilling French, will be asking for a "livre" of cheese or pâté.

Iwannahurl

Su Campu wrote: »

Eh, instead of quoting private weather sites, why not actually look at the national met services of various countries, or better still, the official WMO guidelines. Any site can decode coded reports into any format they like, and if they want to use speed units of furlongs per fortnight then there's nothing stopping them! You're comparing apples and oranges!

Regarding the "unscientific" or "clumsy" arguments: official international practice, as laid down by the WMO, states that in aviation reports, visibilities shall be in km while cloud bases in feet! So if anyone has a problem, they should be contacting Geneva, not Glasnevin.

Link?

Su Campu

Iwannahurl wrote: »

Link?

Page 49 of

http://www.wmo.int/pages/prog/gcos/documents/gruanmanuals/WWW_Data_Management/WMO_306_vol%20I.1_en.pdf

Though it's pretty much the same as you have already quoted above. I maybe shouldn't have used the words "shall be", but my point is that the singling out of Met Éireann for the mixing of systems is unfair, as this practice is acceptable in the eyes of the governing body, and as such is widely done all over the world.

Pigeon Reaper

The report being criticised is a coastal report for shipping. Navigation at sea still uses nautical miles and knots for speed. This is due to a nautical mile being one second of one degree of the circumference of the Earth as measured at the equator. This is used so positions can be calculated with Astronomical measurements using a sextant and as such all nuatical charts use this unit for measuring distance. Knowing visibility in NM is very useful as it can also be used for fixing positions which will be logged and charted. Since ships speed is measured in knots which again ties in with NM wind speeds for sea area and costal needs to be given in this so boats can extrapolate leeway caused by the wind. Alot of these methods aren't used since GPS became commonplace about 15 years ago but they are still valid and needed incase of instrument failure. The sea area forecasts are targeted at a specific user group hence the use of relevant measurements to that group.

Iwannahurl

Met Eireann is the one I follow.

The option is there to use SI units only, and IMO it would be better to stick to one rather than the current ad hoc minestrone method. I just find it personally irritating, not least because there is no rationale to it.

Closer to home, why does one Weather thread report wind speeds in KM/H and another in MPH?

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056437675&page=12

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055579971&page=153