Ireland's Drinking Problem

Gingko

Sarah Loose Trek wrote: »

If you didnt feel comfortable in Galway you will find it hard to feel comfortable anywhere. Its the safest city in Ireland by a long way and probably in Europe. I'm from galway and cant wait to get back living there full time again.

I feel comfortable in most places. Galway scene and tourism is built on drinking. I felt safe there but just don't want to live in such a drink orientated place. Drink Drink Drink!!! Arse! Feck! Girls! and all that. Therefore I found it a very insincere place.

Gingko

jester77 wrote: »

You need to travel more. I lived in Frankfurt and seen junkies shooting up in broad daylight when police were around and nothing was done. The problem is too big so the police leave them to it. They once tried to clean it up but made the problem worse. I even seen a junkie sitting on steps to the underground shooting up while a bunch of kids under 10 years of age stood and watched him. Ireland is not that bad yet.

I've lived and worked in many countries. Travelled throughout Europe, Australia, NZ, Asia, Indonesia, Africa and the States. Walking down shop street and people don't look so healthy eh? Too many pubs and too much fried food! Yuck!

Doc Ruby

leggo wrote: »

the culture of drinking vodka in that manner isn't with the objective of getting LOCKED in mind.

I don't know how you put away a full bottle of strong spirits on a regular basis without the objective of getting locked. I mean what, its alright because they aren't trying to get drunk? What else would they be trying to do?

leggo wrote: »

How can people seriously argue that the stereotype is unfair

Maybe because they know the truth of the matter?
http://www.finfacts.ie/Private/bestprice/alcoholdrinkconsumptionpriceseurope.htm

parker kent

Doc Ruby wrote: »

Maybe because they know the truth of the matter?
http://www.finfacts.ie/Private/bestprice/alcoholdrinkconsumptionpriceseurope.htm

That actually highlights leggo's point (that there is a culture of binge drinking). Hence that report stating:

In countries such as Ireland, the UK and Denmark, what is termed "binge" drinking is common. This refers to reserving drinking alcohol for a few days a week - usually from Thursday and then consuming 4 or more liters of beer or 7 pints of beer in an evening. The intention of some younger drinkers is actually to get drunk/merry when heading out on an evening to drink.

Ireland's per capita litre consumption increased from 7.0 in 1970 to 14.5 in 2001 according to the World Health Organization and 13.5 in 2004. This compares with 20.4 in France in 1970 down to 13.0 in 2004.

The figures also show we are high in most alcohol related stats.

Doc Ruby

parker kent wrote: »

That actually highlights leggo's point (that there is a culture of binge drinking). Hence that report stating:

Ah Parker, I see you've returned, spectacles unwiped and in full selective reading mode as usual. Have I got my first stalker? The report says nothing of the sort to support his point, which was that Ireland was 7% above anyone else in binge drinking.

McCoy wrote in The Irish Times that that spending on alcohol is recorded differently across the EU in contrast to Ireland. When comparisons of alcohol consumption are made, distinction is normally made between spending on alcohol in pubs on the one hand and in off-licences on the other. In most European countries only spending in off-licences is attributed to the category "alcohol" in national statistics, whereas money spent in pubs and restaurants is included in categories such as "recreation" or "entertainment".
The Irish numbers, in contrast, include spending in off-licences and pub sales combined. A recent Drinks Industry Group of Ireland report estimated that 70 per cent of alcohol in Ireland is bought in pubs and restaurants. This is a substantially higher proportion than our European counterparts, largely due to the greater propensity for Irish people to drink in pubs and restaurants rather than at home. The inclusion of both categories therefore greatly inflates alcohol expenditure levels in Ireland in comparison with other EU countries. While there is a continuing trend towards more off-licence sales in Ireland, it is the classification distinction that significantly explains the exaggerated comparisons of Irish alcohol expenditure with other countries.

In the context of a comprehensive measurement of alcohol spending, it could be argued that the Irish proportion of expenditure on alcohol is not overestimated; rather other countries' expenditure ratios are underestimated. The recent national accounts from the Central Statistics Office show that expenditure on alcohol in Ireland is 8.6 per cent of total personal expenditure, which has declined from 10.8 per cent in the mid-1990s. The recent EU-funded report claims that Ireland spends three times more than any other country on alcohol. However, using directly comparable data, a far different story is told.
Between 1995 and 2004, households in Ireland spent an average of 2.6 per cent of their personal expenditure on alcoholic beverages - when measured as off-licence consumption. In Greece the proportion is smaller, at 0.9 per cent, but certainly not 10 times smaller as widely reported. Ireland was surpassed by Finland, Luxembourg and the Czech Republic, which had averages of 3.8 per cent, 3 per cent and 5.2 per cent respectively. When on-licence trade is factored back in, Ireland would emerge towards the top of the expenditure league, but by no means anywhere near the exaggerated multiples normally reported.
Expenditure figures are a combination of the actual quantity of alcohol consumed and its price. The fact that taxes on alcohol are higher in Ireland than in most EU member states inflates the expenditure levels without necessarily implying greater consumption levels. Per-capita alcohol consumption levels in Ireland are high by international standards, but not disproportionately so. The trend over the last decade was for actual alcohol consumed to rise as income levels increased significantly, but at the same time the proportion of expenditure on alcohol declined. A number of factors led to the increase in alcohol consumed, particularly the huge growth in the numbers of people in the 18-25 age group and increased inward migration of adults.

In fact it is the UK, after the few seconds Googling as prescribed by Leggo, which is the binge drinking capital of Europe, despite binge drinking being more common in Northern Europe.

Britain is the binge-drinking capitol of Europe, with 12 per cent of the population admitting they have up to ten drinks in a single night out, according to new research.

A Europe-wide study found that although the British are not the EU's most regular drinkers – only consuming alcohol an average of four times a week – they drink the most at one sitting.

The findings expose the failure of 24-hour drinking laws, introduced five years ago in the hope of creating a more continental-style café culture.

The research, by pollsters Eurobarometer, found British drinkers consume more in one session than any other of the EU's 27 nations.

Only the Maltese and the Finnish could match the quantity of drink consumed at a single sitting, with one in ten drinking the same quantity as the British.

And only two out of ten Britons said they had consumed no alcohol at all in the past 12 months, compared to double that number in Portugal, Italy and Hungary.

So lets have a chat about the drunken limeys while we're at it.

Snowie

is it me or is every one on this thread on the defense ? :pac:

aaronjumper

Snow-Monkey wrote: »

is it me or is every one on this thread on the defense ? :pac:

Dunno too drunk to tell. Only joking I'm only on my second can.

Snowie

Dravokivich wrote: »

Same can be said about the reasons behind people drinking tea or coffee.

in fairness caffine isn't a drug

aaronjumper wrote: »

Dunno too drunk to tell. Only joking I'm only on my second can.

im not even finished work yet

leggo

Doc Ruby wrote: »

In fact it is the UK, after the few seconds Googling as prescribed by Leggo, which is the binge drinking capital of Europe, despite binge drinking being more common in Northern Europe.

And I'm sure I could go out and find a Danish newspaper report that calls their country the binge-drinking capital of Europe. The fact is that you can twist stats to suit any agenda. And would the Telegraph (a UK newspaper) sell more papers with that story if it said Ireland or UK had the problem? Hmm...

Let's take a look at the quotation you provided and highlight the variables in it:

McCoy wrote in The Irish Times that that spending on alcohol is recorded differently across the EU in contrast to Ireland. When comparisons of alcohol consumption are made, distinction is normally made between spending on alcohol in pubs on the one hand and in off-licences on the other. In most European countries only spending in off-licences is attributed to the category "alcohol" in national statistics, whereas money spent in pubs and restaurants is included in categories such as "recreation" or "entertainment".
The Irish numbers, in contrast, include spending in off-licences and pub sales combined. A recent Drinks Industry Group of Ireland report estimated that 70 per cent of alcohol in Ireland is bought in pubs and restaurants. This is a substantially higher proportion than our European counterparts, largely due to the greater propensity for Irish people to drink in pubs and restaurants rather than at home. The inclusion of both categories therefore greatly inflates alcohol expenditure levels in Ireland in comparison with other EU countries. While there is a continuing trend towards more off-licence sales in Ireland, it is the classification distinction that significantly explains the exaggerated comparisons of Irish alcohol expenditure with other countries.
In the context of a comprehensive measurement of alcohol spending, it could be argued that the Irish proportion of expenditure on alcohol is not overestimated; rather other countries' expenditure ratios are underestimated. The recent national accounts from the Central Statistics Office show that expenditure on alcohol in Ireland is 8.6 per cent of total personal expenditure, which has declined from 10.8 per cent in the mid-1990s. The recent EU-funded report claims that Ireland spends three times more than any other country on alcohol. However, using directly comparable data, a far different story is told.
Between 1995 and 2004, households in Ireland spent an average of 2.6 per cent of their personal expenditure on alcoholic beverages - when measured as off-licence consumption. In Greece the proportion is smaller, at 0.9 per cent, but certainly not 10 times smaller as widely reported. Ireland was surpassed by Finland, Luxembourg and the Czech Republic, which had averages of 3.8 per cent, 3 per cent and 5.2 per cent respectively. When on-licence trade is factored back in, Ireland would emerge towards the top of the expenditure league, but by no means anywhere near the exaggerated multiples normally reported.
Expenditure figures are a combination of the actual quantity of alcohol consumed and its price. The fact that taxes on alcohol are higher in Ireland than in most EU member states inflates the expenditure levels without necessarily implying greater consumption levels. Per-capita alcohol consumption levels in Ireland are high by international standards, but not disproportionately so. The trend over the last decade was for actual alcohol consumed to rise as income levels increased significantly, but at the same time the proportion of expenditure on alcohol declined. A number of factors led to the increase in alcohol consumed, particularly the huge growth in the numbers of people in the 18-25 age group and increased inward migration of adults.

If you don't get my point here, it's that he's relying on those variables (in bold) to substantiate his argument. There really is no hard evidence in that quote, though he tries to weave in so many variables into it that it sounds as if he has a point. It's like arguing that aliens may exist because nobody has proven they don't exist yet. It's impossible to prove a negative...so unless you're going to actually prove it's not physically possible for them to exist, you don't have a leg to stand on really.

Here are some realities:

• Ireland either tops or is near the top of every single study regarding binge-drinking.
• 1-in-3 of deaths in Ireland, involving 18-34 year olds, involve alcohol in one way or another.
• Irish bars are up there with potatoes as one of the biggest worldwide exports this country has. And why do they stay in business? Because Irish people love to drink. Strange for such a small country isn't it?

Every argument against drinking in this thread so far has basically come back to the point "Yes we do love to get drunk, but it's not as bad as you think! Look at these guys!"

Let's forget about comparing us to other countries. Maybe they have a problem too, maybe they don't. It's irrelevant to us anyway. Let's just focus on ourselves for a minute.

Is 1-in-3 deaths of young adults not enough of a clue that says that maybe, just maybe, we should stop permitting this attitude, coming out with convoluted non-stats that enable the whole country to continue this guilt-free sesh? Should we wait until 2-in-3 die before we explore the possibility of a problem existing here?

And what kind of a person would look to intentionally dismiss any notion of a problem existing? It's a conversation about alcohol issues, after all...so perhaps someone with an alcohol issue? That is a very common symptom. I'm not making this personal by saying anyone here has a problem, I don't know any of you personally, but is it not a question you should ask yourself perhaps?

ScumLord

leggo wrote: »

Is 1-in-3 deaths of young adults not enough of a clue that says that maybe, just maybe, we should stop permitting this attitude, coming out with convoluted non-stats that enable the whole country to continue this guilt-free sesh? Should we wait until 2-in-3 die before we explore the possibility of a problem existing here?

People are going to die of things regardless we can't keep rapping mollycoddling every part of life because some people are inevitably going to make a mistake, or be in the wrong place at the wrong time. Binging is a side effect of the times, it's something humans will inevitably do when they get the chance. Us binging is about the same as a group of monkeys gorging themselves on berry's when they're in season.

Logical Fallacy

leggo wrote: »

The fact is that you can twist stats to suit any agenda.

People who have absolutely no idea how statistical analysis works say that a lot. While technically any analysis is malleable the stats themselves don't lie, the important part is to exam exactly how the statistics were generated.

Doc Ruby

leggo wrote: »

If you don't get my point here, it's that he's relying on those variables (in bold) to substantiate his argument.

A sorry excuse for a comeback, since he also makes a great many hard assertions as well. If you think you know better than the Telegraph feel free to email them and have them print a retraction for the slanders on the international good name of British drinkers, such as it is.

I will eagerly await your successful return in this matter.

What I found most interesting about that report in fact was the passing correlation between the vast influx of young people from Eastern Europe and the rise in alcohol consumption in Ireland.

leggo wrote: »

Irish bars are up there with potatoes as one of the biggest worldwide exports this country has. And why do they stay in business? Because Irish people love to drink. Strange for such a small country isn't it?

Actually our top exports are mostly software and pharmaceuticals, my little pointy headed friend, so spare us the cracks about potatoes.

leggo wrote: »

Let's forget about comparing us to other countries. Maybe they have a problem too, maybe they don't. It's irrelevant to us anyway. Let's just focus on ourselves for a minute.

Sure, why not make bold claims about the Irish being the worst binge drinking alcoholics on earth and then stop comparing to other countries when you find out you're wrong...

leggo wrote: »

And what kind of a person would look to intentionally dismiss any notion of a problem existing?

...and then broaden the scope of your claims to try and sound reasonable again.

Here's an artist's impression of what just happened to yours and Parker's arguments, with the motorbike helmet guys representing same.

leggo

Of course people are going to die. But is 1-in-3 deaths of young people not enough of an overwhelming statistic for us to go "Hmm...that's actually a sign that there's a problem somewhere?"

If 1-in-3 people were being murdered violently or dying of an easily curable disease, instead of doing something you enjoy, would you not be crying out that something should be done?

I'm not trying to rain on people's parade here. I love a drink and a night out myself.

I'm simply suggesting that everything is good in moderation. Can we not find a culture where people drink, have the craic, but a significant chunk don't drink themselves to death at a young age? Sounds reasonable to me.

And, like alcoholism itself, the first step to tackling the problem is admitting there is one to begin with.

leggo

Doc Ruby wrote: »

A sorry excuse for a comeback, since he also makes a great many hard assertions as well. If you think you know better than the Telegraph feel free to email them and have them print a retraction for the slanders on the international good name of British drinkers, such as it is.

I will eagerly await your successful return in this matter.

Ridiculous, ridiculous, ridiculous. Essentially, this point boils down to "Why question anything in the paper because they know more than us?"

What I found most interesting about that report in fact was the passing correlation between the vast influx of young people from Eastern Europe and the rise in alcohol consumption in Ireland.

I actually laughed when I read this. So Ireland only became heavy drinkers when the Polish came over, was it?

Actually our top exports are mostly software and pharmaceuticals, my little pointy headed friend, so spare us the cracks about potatoes.

I didn't mean export in a literal sense. We don't send 'Fibbers' pubs over on boats to Dubai. Come on, a bit of intelligence here.

Sure, why not make bold claims about the Irish being the worst binge drinking alcoholics on earth and then stop comparing to other countries when you find out you're wrong...

Not at all, we're still either on top (or close to) it of almost every table no matter how you twist or analyse the findings. I'm suggesting that people are using "WELL THE UK HAS A PROBLEM TOO!" as a way of arguing that Ireland doesn't. That, my friend, is another ridiculous point. You were really on a roll with this post.

parker kent

leggo wrote: »

I didn't mean export in a literal sense. We don't send 'Fibbers' pubs over on boats to Dubai. Come on, a bit of intelligence here.

Actually you did mean export in a literal sense. In national accounts any direct purchases by non-residents in the economic territory of a country are recorded as exports of services; therefore all expenditure by foreign tourists in the economic territory of a country is considered as part of the exports of services of that country.

So an American coming to Ireland and buying a few pints in Temple Bar counts as an export.

saa

I don't see a problem with drinking occaisionally but if its the only thing you can do to escape or have a good time week after week they're something wrong.

There's not a lot to do within the realms of being social that doesn't involve sitting in a pub, I don't like sitting in a chair with friends only to get drunk without being able to talk to any of them.

Doc Ruby

leggo wrote: »

I'm suggesting that people are using "WELL THE UK HAS A PROBLEM TOO!" as a way of arguing that Ireland doesn't. That, my friend, is another ridiculous point.

Oh I never said Ireland doesn't have a problem, and that's not the issue I was responding to originally. There are indeed problems here, but we're not particularly special and we're not particularly unique in that regard. You don't see any stereotypes about drunken Englishmen although by all accounts its as much of a problem there as here, if not more so.

Mad discussions around this place altogether, people seem to run off and have violent arguments largely with themselves. Possibly that's an Irish debating problem.

But I doubt it.

parker kent

Doc Ruby wrote: »

You don't see any stereotypes about drunken Englishmen although by all accounts its as much of a problem there as here, if not more so.

Of course there are stereotypes about drunken Englishmen. Ever hear somebody talking about going to Magaluf? How long do you give for the first mention of drunken English to come up? Ever talk about people going to football matches in England? How long do you give it before drink is mentioned? There are countless other examples. The same way there are stereotypes about Germans and beer, Russians and vodka etc.

Doc Ruby

parker kent wrote: »

Of course there are stereotypes about drunken Englishmen. Ever hear somebody talking about going to Magaluf? How long do you give for the first mention of drunken English to come up? Ever talk about people going to football matches in England? How long do you give it before drink is mentioned? There are countless other examples. The same way there are stereotypes about Germans and beer, Russians and vodka etc.

Maybe I'm being a little touchy on the subject, but it does seem like one of the main associations with Ireland is alcohol abuse, which is unjustified, especially when compared to some other hard drinking cultures. In ways too that sort of thing can become a self fulfilling prophecy, young people who don't know any better abusing alcohol because "we're Irish". Its not a healthy thing and I'd like to see it discontinued.

/in before the pedant, I'm not saying all or even most young people think like that, but I bet its a factor

gasher

it hard to be a piss head these days

Wattle

We're definitely known for it worldwide. Whenever I travel I always get the same reaction when I say I'm a non-drinker. 'You're Irish and you don't drink? What not even wine?'. Um.....wine is a drink

Gingko

Gingko wrote: »

Galway scene and tourism is built on drinking. I felt safe there but just don't want to live in such a drink orientated place. Drink Drink Drink!!! Arse! Feck! Girls! and all that. Therefore I found it a very insincere place.

And thats a problem? that's why Galway is such a great place, you wont find an atmosphere or the craic like you have in galway anywhere.

Wattle

Sarah Loose Trek wrote: »

And thats a problem? that's why Galway is such a great place, you wont find an atmosphere or the craic like you have in galway anywhere.

I think he's saying he wants to drink less. Not more.

jumbone

The reason imo Irish people drink so much is due higher levels of nervousness amongst Irish people.

Chuck Stone wrote: »

Source?

eh he gave one...

gasher

I dont think it nervousness i think it the old story were renowned for drinking so lets keep up appearences it will have to change my liver in a jog!

Scruffles

ireland doesnt have a alcohol problem significantly worse than us in neighbouring countries,that is the stereotypes that have plagued it for years.
if alcohol was such a big problem in ireland-why isnt there a significantly higher rate of people with FAS/FASD [foetal alcohol syndrome/foetal alcohol spectrum disorder]?

there are a lot of reasons which cause alcohol problems in a country examples;no job and lack of doing anything, mental health issues and lack of support,cheap alcohol, family problems,money problems,hereditary drinking habits,boredom,peer and environmental influences,lazy attitudes from parents towards their kids getting pissed,part of local culture,lack of support for alcoholism, lazy attitudes from authorities and schools towards kids getting pissed,kids told alcohol is completely out of bounds and shoud not be touched; make something taboo,naughty and untouchable and the youngens are going to want it...

no where is without its problems,itd be delusional for anywhere in europe to try and hide alcohol issues.

gasher

d hell with this i'm going for a few pints