When is the ball out of a ruck?

Tim Robbins

This is a survey open to all players, fans, refs.
You're at a ruck, playing for a team without the ball. You came through the gate, one of your arms is free and you see the scrum half in front of you.

When can you go for the scrum half?

Players, I want you to be honest here :-) Fans or anyone who doesn't play answer it as if you were.


PS
I am not giving my answer here as I am interested in hearing your opinions first. I have a very consistent rule of thumb that I explain when asked. But where I am coming from is that players are not thinking or this law is not being reffed consistently.

CatFromHue

If you came through the gate, as opposed to over the top of it, are you not entitled to go for the ball and/or scrum half. I'm assuming in the theoretical situation I'm standing.

Podge_irl

I leave it at least a second after the number 9 takes it out just to ensure I don't get penalised?

When the ball goes behind the last foot?

This is probably wrong...

Tim Robbins

CatFromHue wrote: »

If you came through the gate, as opposed to over the top of it, are you not entitled to go for the ball and/or scrum half. I'm assuming in the theoretical situation I'm standing.

Doesn't really answer the question I was trying to ask.

The ball is in the ruck. Scrum half of other team is about to take it out. You have to make a decision what to do and when. We're down to split second timing here.At what stage can you do what?

LightningBolt

I leave it at least a second after the number 9 takes it out just to ensure I don't get penalised?

It's a bit of an awkward one to be honest and really depends on the type of ruck it is. When the scrum half has his hands on the ball at the hindfoot and his shoulders come up I go straight through him.

My logic is as follows: if his shoulders are facing down towards the ball and he has hands on he's digging the ball out, if he has hands on and his shoulders come up he's looking to play the ball.

I've gotten pinged the odd time for it, if the ref is pretty poor reffing the rucks I'll cheat as much as possible.

Risteard

I do something else?Please state

Not too sure about the question. If it's a ruck, I will try and counter ruck through the middle, I generally don't touch the scrum half just try and hook the ball back with my feet.

If you mean that the ball is clearly lost and just waiting for the the scrum half to pass I'll wait til he has his hands on the ball and looks as if he's going to pass.

For example he might have his hands on the ball trying to fish it out of the ruck, I know that if I go then I'll probably be penalised.

GerM

When the number 9 has finished taking it out, I go for him?

For it to be a ruck, the ball has to be on the ground. For it to be in the ruck it has to be ahead of the hindmost foot. So, for me, it's over or I can go for it when the ball either comes out beyond the hindmost foot or when the scrumhalf picks it off the ground.

danthefan

Whenever the ref says so.

irishbucsfan

I never go for the no. 9 because it's too difficult to predict if I am going to get penalised?

Generally I just stick my feet on it and give it a general welly in any direction.

Pulling the scrum half in is a penalisable offence and referees simply do not referee to the letter of the laws re: the ball being out when the scrum half has his hands on, so there is no point playing him unless he is particularly slow at getting away.

There is a common misconception that if you come through the ruck and are on your feet you are always legal to play the ball with your hands, which is obviously not true (and by common I mean amongst watching public as opposed to players).

I do wish the rule was correctly applied to scrum halves re: the ball being out as soon as they have their hands on. I think that the offside rule protects them too much and even makes it easy for them and harder on the opposition pack.


For me the answer is always dependent on individual referees though. They're all different and they all apply the rules differently. I think that kind of adaptability is a very important skill to have.

.ak

As the number 9 starts taking the ball out I got for him?

The rules say that the 9/first receiver to the ruck is open to a defender as soon as they touch the ball.

It's also interesting to point out that 'dummying' the ball on the ground is illegal. You're not allowed to 'pretend' to pick up the ball as it'll cause confusion because if you touch the ball you're open and it's no longer a ruck.

Eoin

I leave it at least a second after the number 9 takes it out just to ensure I don't get penalised?

.ak wrote:

The rules say that the 9/first receiver to the ruck is open to a defender as soon as they touch the ball.

I've heard a few refs saying that it's when the scrum half has control of it - i.e. you can't play it when the 9 is in the process of digging it out, rather than about to pass. That might not be correct, but that's probably the most common explanation I've been given.

I picked the "When the number 9 has finished taking it out, I go for him?" option, but now I look at it, there's a few different options I could have chosen.

Peter B

Back in my playing days I always drew an imaginary line between the players legs / bodies at the back of the ruck. If the ball was more than half way outside that line I would consider it out.

I have no idea what the official rule is though.

Ste_D

As the number 9 starts taking the ball out I got for him?

I asked a ref last season and he said that when the scrum half touches the ball he's fair game. Then the next week I was penalised for going for the 9 as soon as he had hands on. So there seems to be a lot of confusion here, even with refs!!

Oisinjm

I've always used the rule that I can go for the scrum-half if he has his hands on the ball and he's not resting against a player in the ruck if that makes sense? Never been penalised using this mantra anyway. He's not in the motion of passing the ball yet as he's up against the ruck but preparing to do so, the second he begins his pull back for the pass I see him as fair game really.

Danger_dave1

I watch TG4.

It fully depends on the referees definition . I always get a clarification from the ref before the start of the game. Whether its if the scrumhalf has picked it up off the ground, or if hes in the motion of moving it out of the ruck.

Realistically the best thing to do at the social level is just to wait for him to pass are pick and go and trust your defense to be aligned. If you keep making the tackles after 4 to 5 phases the attacking team generally makes mistakes.

No need to give away silly penalties.

EKClarke

I never go for the no. 9 because it's too difficult to predict if I am going to get penalised?

It depends on the ref. I usually cheat, and what's more I usually get away with it.;)

Usually I think it's fair game if the ball is 'out' at the back of the ruck, around the hindmost foot, and the SH touches it. But then again I'm usually off my feet Richie McCaw style. You just have to be cute about it and you can get away with murder, particularly if it's a poor enough ref.

Steve Perchance

I leave it at least a second after the number 9 takes it out just to ensure I don't get penalised?

I always understood it to be once the ball is behind the hindmost foot or when the scrumhalf has picked it up. That's why the pass off the ground is a key scrumhalf skill - if you don't pick it up, you can put your hands on it and sweep it away - safer ball. Once the ball's up you're fair game.

I think sometimes people confuse the ruck and scrum rules - its at a scrum that hands on = out

pickarooney

As the number 9 starts taking the ball out I got for him?

Technically, once he has one hand on the ball but realistically a moment beforehand in anticipation. Penalties can't be kicked from outside the 22 for some strange reason in the rugby I play so getting penalised for going early is not a big deal.

WeeBushy

When the number 9 has finished taking it out, I go for him?

I'll play the ref's interpretation (well I'll try anyway!), but my default position would be to wait until the scrum half starts to take the ball out. That is if the ball is lost of course, if we can still compete for it I'll go through the middle boots flailing for the ball, in a controlled manner of course.

WeeBushy

When the number 9 has finished taking it out, I go for him?

pickarooney wrote: »

Technically, once he has one hand on the ball but realistically a moment beforehand in anticipation. Penalties can't be kicked from outside the 22 for some strange reason in the rugby I play so getting penalised for going early is not a big deal.

What rugby do you play, do you mind me asking? Odd rule. I'd be giving away penalties all day if they couldn't kick.

pickarooney

As the number 9 starts taking the ball out I got for him?

WeeBushy wrote: »

What rugby do you play, do you mind me asking? Odd rule. I'd be giving away penalties all day if they couldn't kick.

They call it 'rugby loisir' here. Players range from teenagers to 60+. Uncontested scrums, no tap tackles and no kicking outside the 22. Otherwise the same as normal with full-on tackling and line-outs. I've never really been able to get my head around the logic of the no-kicking either but French rugby has a lot of little quirks.

skregs

I never go for the no. 9 because it's too difficult to predict if I am going to get penalised?

As soon as the scrummie has the ball not touching the ground I would think

Conas

Well since I was studying the laws and rules of the game not so long ago, here's my two cents.

*If the ruck isn't formed you can enter from any side to win the ball. It's pretty much a free for all, because the ball is technically still out. Watch what Pocock did again South Africa I think a year ago. A tackle was made, a semi ruck was formed, he played the ball on the ground clearly coming in from the side BUT since the ruck wasn't formed right he was entitled to do so.

*The ball is only out when the scrum half takes the ball from the ruck, the scrum half can hold the ball in the ruck and not be tackled. This is easy enough for a ref to spot. If a player comes in and tackles the scrum half, he can be pinged for it, and can also be pinged for being offside even if he attempts it, So it's a no brainer really. Let the ball come out, the just try and be fast enough.

*When a ruck has formed a player CAN still play the ball once he comes through the gate on his feet, and is physically able to push the opposition off the ball. Another sample being Pocock against Burger. The ruck was formed he wrestled Burger off the ball coming through the gate, and Australia were entitled to pile in over the top. The turnover is technically legal.

Eoin

I leave it at least a second after the number 9 takes it out just to ensure I don't get penalised?

Conas wrote: »

*The ball is only out when the scrum half takes the ball from the ruck, the scrum half can hold the ball in the ruck and not be tackled. This is easy enough for a ref to spot. If a player comes in and tackles the scrum half, he can be pinged for it, and can also be pinged for being offside even if he attempts it, So it's a no brainer really. Let the ball come out, the just try and be fast enough.

It sounds like a no-brainer, if that is the letter of the law. But I bet that most people posting here have seen where a tackle in that situation has been allowed.

Tim Robbins

Amazing. Very good evidence how much confusion this part of the game causes.

Lets look at the Law book, Law 16.6

LAW Book wrote:

"16.6 SUCCESSFUL END TO A RUCK

A ruck ends successfully when the ball leaves the ruck, or when the ball is on or over the goal line. "

Anyone see anything there about the scrum half's hands? I don't.
It's the position of the ball not the the 9's hands. If the 9 touches the ball but hasn't moved it, why would the ball be in before he touches it and out after? It makes no logical sense.

So answer 1 is wrong.

If the 9 is in the process of taking it out but hasn't finished taking it out, well then it still hasn't left the ruck so the answer 2 is also wrong.

And the majority of people have picked 1 or 2.

Every single game a ref, there always someone shouting "hands on" - thinking the ruck is over, well it's not.

The problem is a ref's pre-match talk should be quick and brief otherwise you will reck heads. You can't go through every law so it's up to players to really ask.

I usally say it doesn't matter where the scrum half's hands are, the scrum half has to be to able to complete the action of taking the ball out.
The reaction is usually puzzled faces and it's understanable why.

Comments welcomed...

BoarHunter

I leave it at least a second after the number 9 takes it out just to ensure I don't get penalised?

If your name is Richie MC Caw you can play anytime

GerM

When the number 9 has finished taking it out, I go for him?

Tim Robbins wrote: »

Amazing. Very good evidence how much confusion this part of the game causes.

Lets look at the Law book, Law 16.6



Anyone see anything there about the scrum half's hands? I don't.
It's the position of the ball not the the 9's hands. If the 9 touches the ball but hasn't moved it, why would the ball be in before he touches it and out after? It makes no logical sense.

There are a lot of common misconceptions about some very central parts to the game and I would wager I still don't know a fair few. There's complete ambiguity in the laws and they never mention anything about the involvement of a scrum half in relation to a ruck ending lawfully. They deal with how a ruck can judged to be over whether successfully or unsuccessfully. That's why I use the criteria for forming a ruck to judge as to when it ends. When those criteria are no longer present, the ruck is over for me. The scrum half can juggle the ball on the ground with his hands if he wants. As long as he's not making an action to make opposition think the ball is being removed from the ruck, it's still in there and any attempt to get your hands on the ball should be a penalty for me.

castie

When the number 9 has finished taking it out, I go for him?

Tim Robbins wrote: »

Amazing. Very good evidence how much confusion this part of the game causes.

Lets look at the Law book, Law 16.6



Anyone see anything there about the scrum half's hands? I don't.
It's the position of the ball not the the 9's hands. If the 9 touches the ball but hasn't moved it, why would the ball be in before he touches it and out after? It makes no logical sense.

So answer 1 is wrong.

If the 9 is in the process of taking it out but hasn't finished taking it out, well then it still hasn't left the ruck so the answer 2 is also wrong.

And the majority of people have picked 1 or 2.

Every single game a ref, there always someone shouting "hands on" - thinking the ruck is over, well it's not.

The problem is a ref's pre-match talk should be quick and brief otherwise you will reck heads. You can't go through every law so it's up to players to really ask.

I usally say it doesn't matter where the scrum half's hands are, the scrum half has to be to able to complete the action of taking the ball out.
The reaction is usually puzzled faces and it's understanable why.

Comments welcomed...

I would argue that once the ball is off the deck its no longer a ruck and so the ruck has ended and scrummie is fair game.

Thoughts?

irishbucsfan

I never go for the no. 9 because it's too difficult to predict if I am going to get penalised?

Tim Robbins wrote: »

Amazing. Very good evidence how much confusion this part of the game causes.

Lets look at the Law book, Law 16.6



Anyone see anything there about the scrum half's hands? I don't.
It's the position of the ball not the the 9's hands. If the 9 touches the ball but hasn't moved it, why would the ball be in before he touches it and out after? It makes no logical sense.

So answer 1 is wrong.

If the 9 is in the process of taking it out but hasn't finished taking it out, well then it still hasn't left the ruck so the answer 2 is also wrong.

And the majority of people have picked 1 or 2.

Every single game a ref, there always someone shouting "hands on" - thinking the ruck is over, well it's not.

The problem is a ref's pre-match talk should be quick and brief otherwise you will reck heads. You can't go through every law so it's up to players to really ask.

I usally say it doesn't matter where the scrum half's hands are, the scrum half has to be to able to complete the action of taking the ball out.
The reaction is usually puzzled faces and it's understanable why.

Comments welcomed...

If someone who is not in the ruck takes possession of the ball, the ball is out of the ruck. That is absolutely how the law is supposed to be refereed.

And adjusting the ball on the ground or digging it out of the ruck is not possession, but picking it up to pass it IS possession.

It really should be clarified, as should the laws regarding pulling opposition players into the ruck (Alain Rolland's semi-final performance I'm looking at you).

GerM

When the number 9 has finished taking it out, I go for him?

castie wrote: »

I would argue that once the ball is off the deck its no longer a ruck and so the ruck has ended and scrummie is fair game.

Thoughts?

I agree. If the ball is not on the ground, it is not a ruck.

Law 16.1B

How can a ruck form: Players are on their feet. At least one player must be in physical contact with an opponent. The ball must be on the ground. If the ball is off the ground for any reason, the ruck is not formed.

Now, the final line is somewhat ambiguous and it can be argued that it's in reference to only the formation of a ruck and not the ending of the ruck but, as far as I'm concerned, if the ball is not on the ground, it is no longer a ruck. The scrum half cannot pick the ball off the ground and hold it there in his hands, safe in the knowledge that he cannot be touched.

Tim Robbins

castie wrote: »

I would argue that once the ball is off the deck its no longer a ruck and so the ruck has ended and scrummie is fair game.

Thoughts?

Understandable. Since the ball has to be on the deck or on a player who is on the deck to be a ruck. But what if it's off the deck but not behind the hindmost foot. He's just in the process of taking the ball out, so he can pass.

We're into shade of grey here.

.ak

As the number 9 starts taking the ball out I got for him?

Tim Robbins wrote: »

Understandable. Since the ball has to be on the deck or on a player who is on the deck to be a ruck. But what if it's off the deck but not behind the hindmost foot. He's just in the process of taking the ball out, so he can pass.

We're into shade of grey here.

Not really if we go back to basics - you're not allowed ruck with your hands are you? Rucking must be done with the feet, so if someone comes in from behind the gain line and touches the ball it's no longer a ruck... which is why I think once the SH touches the ball he's fair game. If he wants to get the ball into a better position he should be using his feet.

Tim Robbins

irishbucsfan wrote: »

And adjusting the ball on the ground or digging it out of the ruck is not possession, but picking it up to pass it IS possession.

There's a part in between and that's the problem. Scrum half arms are straight and are at say 45 degrees to fetch the ball. He pulls the ball out which takes say 0.2 seconds. From 0 seconds to 0.2 seconds the ball is off the ground but not "out" of the ruck.

After the 0.2 seconds, his shoulder position, arm position change to pass the ball. Then it is out.

Crash Bang Wall

I never go for the no. 9 because it's too difficult to predict if I am going to get penalised?

From the Welsh ref Nigel Owens:

Ball is out of the ruck when the 9 (or someone else on the same team playing as a SH) has both hands on the ball, (or the ball passes beyond the back foot)

Welsh guy in the office is good mates with him

pickarooney

As the number 9 starts taking the ball out I got for him?

Assuming the 9 is actually up with the ruck and it's not another player acting as SH

skregs

I never go for the no. 9 because it's too difficult to predict if I am going to get penalised?

How can a ruck form: Players are on their feet. At least one player must be in physical contact with an opponent. The ball must be on the ground. If the ball is off the ground for any reason, the ruck is not formed.

So what happens if the ball gets held up (if there's an arm underneath it etc) while players bail into the ruck? You can run in from the side and grab it?

DDC1990

As the number 9 starts taking the ball out I got for him?

I think (if im understanding you correctly), that if the ball is held up in a challenge situation, a maul is called, in which case, you cant come in from the side in any case.

Tim Robbins

Crash Bang Wall wrote: »

From the Welsh ref Nigel Owens:

Ball is out of the ruck when the 9 (or someone else on the same team playing as a SH) has both hands on the ball, (or the ball passes beyond the back foot)

Welsh guy in the office is good mates with him

Very interesting. Let's remember though the level he refs. A SH has his hands on it, it will be out like a bullet.

Junior Rugby will be a bit slower.

Brendan97

I do something else?Please state

Thats what i though too
because when you think about it - no hands can be used in a ruck, so if the no.9 touches the ball (with his hands) it must not be in the ruck any longer

skregs

I never go for the no. 9 because it's too difficult to predict if I am going to get penalised?

Crash Bang Wall wrote: »

From the Welsh ref Nigel Owens:

Ball is out of the ruck when the 9 (or someone else on the same team playing as a SH) has both hands on the ball, (or the ball passes beyond the back foot)

So if a SH is digging for the ball, an opposing flanker can come around the former ruck and floor him?
I'm fairly certain I've never seen Owens let anyone away with that

Podge_irl

I leave it at least a second after the number 9 takes it out just to ensure I don't get penalised?

skregs wrote: »

So if a SH is digging for the ball, an opposing flanker can come around the former ruck and floor him?

Well, when's he's digging for it he generally doesn't quite have his hands on it yet. But yes, technically a scrum half isn't allowed use his hands to dig a ball out of a ruck. The ball should be presented to him using only feet or the tackled player laying the ball back immediately. It's one of those things that is glossed over because otherwise the game would be unplayable at times.

JustinDee

As the number 9 starts taking the ball out I got for him?

skregs wrote: »

So if a SH is digging for the ball, an opposing flanker can come around the former ruck and floor him?

No, thats not what he's saying.
He says as soon as hands touch the ball, its game on.

mrboswell

danthefan wrote: »

Whenever the ref says so.

That only works if the ref is giving a running commentary


The original options don't cover all the scenarios anyway.

Sometimes you gotta play the ref too.

Anyway ruck means hands off so if anyone puts their hand on the ball then ruck should be over.
This means that scrum half's or any forward that hold the ball before taking the ball forward at the pillar are fair game.

pajunior

When the number 9 has finished taking it out, I go for him?

JustinDee wrote: »

No, thats not what he's saying.
He says as soon as hands touch the ball, its game on.

When he's digging around though his hand will be on the ball.

Possibly Owen's means when he has two hands on it with a degree of control?

swordofislam

When the number 9 has finished taking it out, I go for him?

In theory you can hit the nine as soon as he touches the ball. After all touching the ball would be HANDS so if it isn't HANDS then the ball isn't in the ruck.

In practice he must clearly have control over the ball so Two hands on the ball and beginning to shift position.

You can ask the ref for his interpretation or get the captain to do it for you. Also refs are going to be more concerned with protecting players than with the rules at almost every level of the game.

irishbucsfan

I never go for the no. 9 because it's too difficult to predict if I am going to get penalised?

No you cannot hit the nine as soon as his hands are on. That is not the rules, that's a misconception of the rules. (Although as a back row I'd love for those to be the rules!)

He must have possession, which is different from touching the ball with his hands. By "two hands on the ball," Owens means holding the ball, off the gronud, in two hands. That is possession, and given he is not in the ruck that therefore means the ball is not in the ruck (given that the ball's position is decided by the position of the player in possession of it).

JustinDee

As the number 9 starts taking the ball out I got for him?

irishbucsfan wrote: »

No you cannot hit the nine as soon as his hands are on. That is not the rules, that's a misconception of the rules. (Although as a back row I'd love for those to be the rules!)

He must have possession, which is different from touching the ball with his hands. By "two hands on the ball," Owens means holding the ball, off the gronud, in two hands. That is possession, and given he is not in the ruck that therefore means the ball is not in the ruck (given that the ball's position is decided by the position of the player in possession of it).

"Possession" as defined by the IRB Laws of the Game actually means a lot more than that. A player carries the ball or the team controls the ball in their half of a scrum or ruck.
Technically speaking, any handling of the ball in said condition must occur at the beginning (formation of the ruck) or by removing (end of the ruck). A player touching the ball means to take the ball thus ending ruck as there is no handling legally permitted in a ruck. There is no defined difference in the Laws of the Game seperating touching the ball in the ruck or handling the ball in the ruck.
Once the player acting as halfback gets mits on that ball, legally they can be played.

Reloc8

You need to understand what a ref is trying to achieve here, which is a balance between a fair contest for the ball and still allowing the team which has won the breakdown contest to play with it.

If he goes too far on one side of the line (half-back touches ball, fingertips on) he'll be watching players diving in on the half-back all the day and making a general mess at the base of the ruck - not a good spectacle and no fun to play in.

If he goes too far on the other, he's unfairly restricting the right of the defence to get to the half-back and deprioritising swift service, a skill of the game. This will result also in more players fanning out to midfield/blind side and a general restriction of space - and the ref must always try and protect space on the pitch.

I like to think of the ball at the No. 8's feet in a scrum - it may only have one leg over it, and half it is out, but the scrum is not over - similar for a ruck - it doesn't take much for it to be 'still in'.

I try to apply this thought process :-

a) If the ball emerges from the ruck - see above - ruck over, ball playable to any player coming from an onside position, attacker or defender.

b) If ball does not emerge to the playable state, confirm contest for possession is over. Half-back may now handle in the ruck to extract the ball, or it may be 'made available' for him by another player. If contest is still ongoing and hands are used, that's a penalty to the defence - yes, a fine but distinct line. Good players will know exactly when its permissible and when its not.

c) If in reality we are looking at a 'rucky tackle thing' with ball perhaps on players bodies, or being transferred back off the ground, i.e. not on ground for the purpose of the definition of a ruck per the laws, I am not going to call 'ruck over' or 'play on' or something like that, because I will have players dive in to the breakdown from all over the minute I do so and that's not going to free up possession. If I have no obvious progress being made and the contest for possession is over I will call 'use it' and I may even go close in to breakdown and indicate where the ball is if I've seen it (depends on level of the game). If the ball doesn't emerge, I will give a scrum defence if this started as a maul, or a scrum to the side going forward otherwise.

d) Half-back who has sole possession of the ball off the ground in two hands is tackleable by a player coming from an onside position, always. This covers the hunched over half-back with his mitts on the ball who wants all day to consider his options.

e) Ball on ground - players over it - its still in the ruck. Think again in terms of a ball at the No.8's feet in a scrum - the whole of the ball must emerge before the scrum is over. This generally doesn't create a problem as where the ball is very much available on deck the half-back will usually sweep it away, or someone will pick and jam/break. If they did put two hands on it, and were gotten to by a player coming from onside, that's legit.