Unpopular Opinions.

Cold War Kid

RGDATA! wrote: »

How do you define "survival of the fittest" in this context?

You know, pussy sick, disabled, very elderly people getting benefits instead of being left to fade away as they should.

Doctor Jimbob

RGDATA! wrote: »

How do you define "survival of the fittest" in this context?

Incorrectly, apparently.

Bubbaclaus

12.5% Corporation Tax should be reduced to 0%.

Instead, 12.5% of company profits sould be distributed evenly between employees (not shareholders) of the company.

Omackeral

When people come onto threads and say 'thoughts are with the families' or 'thoughts and prayers with the families' they don't really mean it. Fair enough with things closer to home such as the recent tragedy but when it comes to farther flung places, I just don't believe them. I doubt they're praying anyway, in most cases.

Robsweezie

Omackeral wrote:

When people come onto threads and say 'thoughts are with the families' or 'thoughts and prayers with the families' they don't really mean it. Fair enough with things closer to home such as the recent tragedy but when it comes to farther flung places, I just don't believe them. I doubt they're praying anyway, in most cases.

It's become a stock phrase, said so often it's almost lost its effect/meaning.

endacl

Willfarman wrote: »

Due to societal obligation and political correctness in western society there is now no survival of the fittest.. In in fact the complete opposite is the case.

My unpopular opinion:

'Fittest', in the Darwinian sense, doesn't mean what you appear to imply it means. It means 'most suitable'. So, in a very real sense, there is survival of the 'fittest' in western society.

But I get what I presume you think you mean.



Edit: Just noticed he can't post in this thread again. Natural selection, or directed?

Duffy the Vampire Slayer

The majority of people complaining about the dog meat festival in China only care becuase it's cute puppies being mistreated. The Chinese could torture all the cattle they wanted and nobody would care. People would want to take a look at where the meat on their plate comes from.

Mardy Bum

endacl wrote: »

My unpopular opinion:

'Fittest', in the Darwinian sense, doesn't mean what you appear to imply it means. It means 'most suitable'. So, in a very real sense, there is survival of the 'fittest' in western society.

But I get what I presume you think you mean.



Edit: Just noticed he can't post in this thread again. Natural selection, or directed?

Plus Darwin never said it.

kunst nugget

Duffy the Vampire Slayer wrote: »

The majority of people complaining about the dog meat festival in China only care becuase it's cute puppies being mistreated. The Chinese could torture all the cattle they wanted and nobody would care. People would want to take a look at where the meat on their plate comes from.

Yeah, it's a bag of balls. If you're partial to munching on steak or a chicken burger, you can't really be giving out if some other country is partial to a bit of dog.

Eugene Norman

I think we got a winner on this thread, since we have had our first banning.

jobbridge4life

kunst nugget wrote: »

Yeah, it's a bag of balls. If you're partial to munching on steak or a chicken burger, you can't really be giving out if some other country is partial to a bit of dog.

You can though because dogs are not the same as cattle or chicken.

kunst nugget

jobbridge4life wrote: »

You can though because dogs are not the same as cattle or chicken.

They're all animals, we just choose to designate dogs as pets and 'man's best friend' in this part of the world and so it's not socially acceptable to fry up Spot or Rover.

Decuc500

kunst nugget wrote: »

They're all animals, we just choose to designate dogs as pets and 'man's best friend' in this part of the world and so it's not socially acceptable to fry up Spot or Rover.

Dogs are pets, companions, security. They show love to their owners. They're intelligent and loyal. Just a bit different than a cow.

Also the way they're treated and killed in China/Korea is particularly barbaric. Yes, even more so than the way we treat our meat sources.

jobbridge4life

kunst nugget wrote: »

They're all animals, we just choose to designate dogs as pets and 'man's best friend' in this part of the world and so it's not socially acceptable to fry up Spot or Rover.

There is substantially more to it than that. Dogs more than any other species have been created by us and lived as companions with us for millennia. Dogs are a product of thousands upon thousands of years of human interference making them utterly unique in the animal kingdom. They are of course animals but not all animals are the same.

IvyTheTerrible

jobbridge4life wrote: »

There is substantially more to it than that. Dogs more than any other species have been created by us and lived as companions with us for millennia. Dogs are a product of thousands upon thousands of years of human interference making them utterly unique in the animal kingdom. They are of course animals but not all animals are the same.

Farm animals are all domesticated animals and are also the product of thousands of years of human interference.

kunst nugget

Decuc500 wrote: »

Dogs are pets, companions, security. They show love to their owners. They're intelligent and loyal. Just a bit different than a cow.

Cows are sacred in India. Doesn't stop me enjoying a fillet steak. Is it not hypocrisy to bemoan the killing in a different country of an animal I consider special above other animals when I'm doing exactly the same when I chow down on Daisy the Cow.

jobbridge4life

IvyTheTerrible wrote: »

Farm animals are all domesticated animals and are also the product of thousands of years of human interference.

Of course but not nearly to the extent of the dog. The role the dog has played in human history is completely unique and not remotely close to that enjoyed by any other animal. Flatly equating dogs and all other animals is misleading at best.

EDit

Decuc500 wrote: »

Dogs are pets, companions, security. They show love to their owners. They're intelligent and loyal. Just a bit different than a cow.

Also the way they're treated and killed in China/Korea is particularly barbaric. Yes, even more so than the way we treat our meat sources.

I don't get why people always say this about dogs, mine is thick as pig ****.

Anyway, back on topic, I'm pretty sure that, raised from birth by humans, a pig, sheep, rabbit, and maybe even a cow would love their owner and show a level of intelligence and loyalty, yet many of us have munched on their flesh multiple times without a second thought. We just have a hang up in the west over eating dogs and cats, which is not seen in other cultures.

jobbridge4life

EDit wrote: »

I don't get why people always say this about dogs, mine is thick as pig ****.

Anyway, back on topic, I'm pretty sure that, raised from birth by humans, a pig, sheep, rabbit, and maybe even a cow would love their owner and show a level of intelligence and loyalty, yet many of us have munched on their flesh multiple times without a second thought. We just have a hang up in the west over eating dogs and cats, which is not seen in other cultures.

No they wouldn't because they haven't be manipulated by humans to the same extent. Seriously people there's more to the pooch than being a pet.

kunst nugget

jobbridge4life wrote: »

No they wouldn't because they haven't be manipulated by humans to the same extent. Seriously people there's more to the pooch than being a pet.

You're right they have been genetically manipulated by farmers over the centuries to produce the best meat and milk but they haven't been so grossly manipulated by humans through selective breeding like dogs that it results in most pedigrees breeds being either completely retarded or riddled with genetic diseases and unnaturally prone to cancers…

jobbridge4life

kunst nugget wrote: »

You're right they have been genetically manipulated by farmers over the centuries to produce the best meat and milk but they haven't been so grossly manipulated by humans through selective breeding like dogs that it results in most pedigrees breeds being either completely retarded or riddled with genetic diseases and unnaturally prone to cancers…

So you concede that you are not comparing like and like. Cheers. There may well be a justification for eating dogs or reasons that it isn't unacceptable but 'they are animals' isn't one.

mordeith

jobbridge4life wrote: »

So you concede that you are not comparing like and like. Cheers. There may well be a justification for eating dogs or reasons that it isn't unacceptable but 'they are animals' isn't one.

Course it is. As long as an animal isn't endangered and they are raised ethically and killed humanely, then they are a valid food source.

kunst nugget

jobbridge4life wrote: »

So you concede that you are not comparing like and like. Cheers. There may well be a justification for eating dogs or reasons that it isn't unacceptable but 'they are animals' isn't one.

You really seem to be suffering from cognitive dissonance here. Why is my eating a cow better than a Chinese person eating a dog? Both animals are consider special in different cultures.

Doctor Jimbob

kunst nugget wrote: »

You really seem to be suffering from cognitive dissonance here. Why is my eating a cow better than a Chinese person eating a dog? Both animals are consider special in different cultures.

I think the argument being made isn't so much that one is more special than the other, but that they were originally domesticated for different purposes.

kunst nugget

Doctor Jimbob wrote: »

I think the argument being made isn't so much that one is more special than the other, but that they were originally domesticated for different purposes.

What I'm saying though is that a dog being a pet obviously means jack shít to the people in China eating them just as a cow being sacred in India means jack shít to us. Why are we getting so upset at the people in China over our cultural sensitivities when we do the exact same thing with cows!

jobbridge4life

kunst nugget wrote: »

You really seem to be suffering from cognitive dissonance here. Why is my eating a cow better than a Chinese person eating a dog? Both animals are consider special in different cultures.

Not in the least. You made the argument that eating dogs is the same thing as eating cows 'because they are all animals' and its the same difference. I simply wanted to point out that reasoning is not sufficient because it completely ignores the real and substantive differences between the different animal groups.

Stone Deaf 4evr

until any animal, whether it has 2 legs, 4 legs or fins, can say the words "please don't eat me", they're all fair game IMO.

jobbridge4life

kunst nugget wrote: »

What I'm say though is that a dog being a pet obviously means jack shít to the people in China eating them just as a cow being sacred in India means jack shít to us. Why are we getting so upset at the people in China over our cultural sensitivities when we do the exact same thing with cows!

There is enormous opposition within China from the Chinese so portraying this as another 'lecturing west is hypocritical' story is also overly simplistic and inaccurate.

kunst nugget

jobbridge4life wrote: »

Not in the least. You made the argument that eating dogs is the same thing as eating cows 'because they are all animals' and its the same difference. I simply wanted to point out that reasoning is not sufficient because it completely ignores the real and substantive differences between the different animal groups.

They are animals, if you kill them, you can eat the meat off their bones. We just attach cultural significance to one over the other. That's it.

jobbridge4life

kunst nugget wrote: »

They are animals, if you kill them, you can eat the meat off their bones. We just attach cultural significance to one over the other. That's it.

No we don't. You are ignoring the differences I have pointed out just to suit your argument.

kunst nugget

jobbridge4life wrote: »

There is enormous opposition within China from the Chinese so portraying this as another 'lecturing west is hypocritical' story is also overly simplistic and inaccurate.

The only reason I was reading about it is from people on facebook posting about the festival inbetween memes about their pets so in that context, yes, I do consider it people from the west lecturing and I do find it hypocritical.

IvyTheTerrible

jobbridge4life wrote: »

No we don't. You are ignoring the differences I have pointed out just to suit your argument.

I don't agree with the differences you've pointed out.

jobbridge4life

kunst nugget wrote: »

The only reason I was reading about it is from people on facebook posting about the festival inbetween memes about their pets so in that context, yes, I do consider it people from the west lecturing and I do find it hypocritical.

Well once again the facts contradict your interpretation. Your friends posts on facebook don't reflect the whole world.

jobbridge4life

IvyTheTerrible wrote: »

I don't agree with the differences you've pointed out.

You can not agree that they warrant different treatment but you can't disagree 'with the differences' they are a fact of human and dog development.

Henlars67

I think all drugs should be legalised.

In my view it is no business of the state what anyone puts in their bodies.

If somebody wants to poison themselves, then let them go ahead.

Pumpkinseeds

Anyone defending the eating of dogs in China needs to take a look at the pictures of the dogs squeezed in on top of each other in tiny cages. Look at the fear and misery in their eyes. It's a festival, not a dietary necessity. Many of the dogs are stolen pets and China is not the only country in which it happens. Their is an illegal market in other countries in that part of the world for dogs and cats.

I don't want any animal to suffer for me so I don't eat meat. I'm not criticising meat eaters but the line has to be drawn somewhere and the torture and mistreatment of any animal is unacceptable. Anyone who eats meat has a moral obligation to the welfare and treatment of the animals they will eat. You only have to take a look at the secret films that emerge from slaughter houses to see the obscene treatment many of the animals receive. If slaughter houses had nothing to hide they wouldn't repeatedly refuse to have CCTV on their premises.

Cienciano

Pumpkinseeds wrote: »

Anyone defending the eating of dogs in China needs to take a look at the pictures of the dogs squeezed in on top of each other in tiny cages. Look at the fear and misery in their eyes. It's a festival, not a dietary necessity. Many of the dogs are stolen pets and China is not the only country in which it happens. Their is an illegal market in other countries in that part of the world for dogs and cats.

I don't want any animal to suffer for me so I don't eat meat. I'm not criticising meat eaters but the line has to be drawn somewhere and the torture and mistreatment of any animal is unacceptable. Anyone who eats meat has a moral obligation to the welfare and treatment of the animals they will eat. You only have to take a look at the secret films that emerge from slaughter houses to see the obscene treatment many of the animals receive. If slaughter houses had nothing to hide they wouldn't repeatedly refuse to have CCTV on their premises.

If meat eaters had to do that, they'd only eat animals they raised themselves.

Kev W

Pumpkinseeds wrote: »

Anyone defending the eating of dogs in China needs to take a look at the pictures of the dogs squeezed in on top of each other in tiny cages. Look at the fear and misery in their eyes. It's a festival, not a dietary necessity. Many of the dogs are stolen pets and China is not the only country in which it happens. Their is an illegal market in other countries in that part of the world for dogs and cats.

I don't want any animal to suffer for me so I don't eat meat. I'm not criticising meat eaters but the line has to be drawn somewhere and the torture and mistreatment of any animal is unacceptable. Anyone who eats meat has a moral obligation to the welfare and treatment of the animals they will eat. You only have to take a look at the secret films that emerge from slaughter houses to see the obscene treatment many of the animals receive. If slaughter houses had nothing to hide they wouldn't repeatedly refuse to have CCTV on their premises.

The problem is that people (on both sides of the argument) want to reduce it to meat eaters vs. vegetarians/vegans when it's the treatment of the animal when it's alive that's the actual issue.

kunst nugget

jobbridge4life wrote: »

No we don't. You are ignoring the differences I have pointed out just to suit your argument.

And you're ignoring my argument so I'll ask it again - considering the cow is sacred in India, why is it okay for us to eat them and it's not okay for people in China to eat dogs?

jobbridge4life

kunst nugget wrote: »

And you're ignoring my argument so I'll ask it again - considering the cow is sacred in India, why is it okay for us to eat them and it's not okay for people in China to eat dogs?

If you take off your partisan lenses for a few seconds and read back on what I have written I have not actually said whether I think eating dogs in China is okay or not I just pointed out the initial reasoning you employed was flawed.

kunst nugget

jobbridge4life wrote: »

If you take off your partisan lenses for a few seconds and read back on what I have written I have not actually said whether I think eating dogs in China is okay or not I just pointed out the initial reasoning you employed was flawed.

Still not answering the question…

Kev W

kunst nugget wrote: »

Still not answering the question…

You asked why he thought it was okay. He pointed out that he never said it was. How is that not an answer?

jobbridge4life

kunst nugget wrote: »

Still not answering the question…

I don't think whether something is held 'sacred' or as a pet should determine whether human beings eat things or not. There are plenty of individuals who keep chickens as pets, micro-pigs, etc. The guinea pig is a pet and is food for many in South America. Again though your attempts to portray this as an issue of western hypocrisy is ridiculous considering the enormous opposition from within China were activists bargain with traders on their way to the festival often paying inflated prices for the release of dogs in transit to their death.

kunst nugget

Kev W wrote: »

You asked why he thought it was okay. He pointed out that he never said it was. How is that not an answer?

Alright, okay is the wrong word so I'll rephrase it: Given its status as a sacred animal in India, why is it acceptable for us to eat a cow but it is not acceptable for people in China to eat a dog?

Kev W

kunst nugget wrote: »

Alright, okay is the wrong word so I'll rephrase it: Given its status as a sacred animal in India, why is it acceptable for us to eat a cow but it is not acceptable for people in China to eat a dog?

"Okay" is not different from "acceptable" but in this case it's the treatment of the dogs when they are still alive that's the root of the issue.

kunst nugget

Kev W wrote: »

"Okay" is not different from "acceptable" but in this case it's the treatment of the dogs when they are still alive that's the root of the issue.

Can't see it being any different to the treatment of cows or chickens in factory farming…

jobbridge4life

kunst nugget wrote: »

Can't see it being any different to the treatment of cows or chickens in factory farming…

The mistreatment of all animals is just that mistreatment and ought to be prohibited as far as is practicable. I think it would be a truly unpopular opinion to believe otherwise.
Out of interest are you a vegetarian?

kunst nugget

jobbridge4life wrote: »

I don't think whether something is held 'sacred' or as a pet should determine whether human beings eat things or not. There are plenty of individuals who keep chickens as pets, micro-pigs, etc. The guinea pig is a pet and is food for many in South America. Again though your attempts to portray this as an issue of western hypocrisy is ridiculous considering the enormous opposition from within China were activists bargain with traders on their way to the festival often paying inflated prices for the release of dogs in transit to their death.

Your initial argument was

There is substantially more to it than that. Dogs more than any other species have been created by us and lived as companions with us for millennia. Dogs are a product of thousands upon thousands of years of human interference making them utterly unique in the animal kingdom. They are of course animals but not all animals are the same.

So you said dogs were special because we made them pets, cows aren't. I pointed out the argument that other cultures consider cows special and it's been nothing but cognitive dissonance since. If you don't think an animal being sacred or a pet should determine whether human beings eat them, what should? If you are going to mention cruelty, unless you're a vegetarian like Pumpkinseeds, you're being a hypocrite imo. Factory farming is way worse than what happens in that festival.

kunst nugget

jobbridge4life wrote: »

The mistreatment of all animals is just that mistreatment and ought to be prohibited as far as is practicable. I think it would be a truly unpopular opinion to believe otherwise.
Out of interest are you a vegetarian?

No, so for me personally to give out about Lassie being eaten while having a fry would be completely hypocritical. Which is why I don't.

jobbridge4life

kunst nugget wrote: »

Your initial argument was



So you dogs were special because we made them pets, cows aren't. I pointed out the argument that other cultures consider cows special and it's been nothing but cognitive dissonance since. If you don't think an animal being sacred or a pet should determine whether human beings eat them, what should? If you are going to mention cruelty, unless you're a vegetarian like Pumpkinseeds, you're being a hypocrite imo. Factory farming is way worse than what happens in that festival.

My initial argument and the quoted was in response to your own about dogs being animals and that being enough to prove your point. It wasn't a statement on the rightness or otherwise of eating dogs as I explicitly said in subsequent posts. In addition you are misrepresenting and overly simplifying what I said. We didn't make them our pets, we domesticated them and utilized them millennia before such a notion exists they are our pets as a consequence.