Joan Burton Proposing Employers to pay for sick leave!!!

HellFireClub

You couldn't make it up!!!

Employers will have to pay the first four weeks of their staff’s sick pay under proposals drawn up by Minister for Social Protection Joan Burton to shave €150 million off her budget.
Ms Burton is proposing to transfer responsibility for paying sick pay from the Department of Social Protection to individual employers in the first month of illness, The Irish Times understands.
The plan, which would make a substantial inroad into the approximately €700 million in cuts Ms Burton has to make in next month’s budget, is likely to be strongly opposed by employers’ groups.
It was one of a number of cost-saving measures affecting social welfare which were discussed at a special pre-budget meeting of Ministers yesterday. The proposal would take at least a year to get up and running but is projected to save the exchequer €150 million in 2013.
Ms Burton argues that the current system under which the State picks up the tab for most employee sickness is an anomaly, and differs sharply from the practice in many other countries.
In preparation for the December budget, the Cabinet yesterday devoted a special meeting to discuss Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform Brendan Howlin’s wide-ranging proposals for reform in the public service.
It is understood that discussion during the seven-hour meeting focused on proposals to reduce the number of State agencies and quangos. Early plans suggested some 102 bodies should be axed or merged, but the number has since been reduced to under 50.
Mr Howlin is also expected to outline his proposals for reduction in public sector numbers on Thursday. One measure is expected to set new levels of annual leave for all existing staff across the public service, ranging from a minimum of 22 days and a maximum of 32.
Mr Howlin is also expected to outline his proposals for reduction in public sector numbers on Thursday. The Government’s target of reducing numbers to 302,000 for 2011 will be easily surpassed, a Government source said yesterday. A year-by-year timeline of reducing numbers by as many as 25,000 by 2015 will also be disclosed, as will details of the strategy for reforming shared services, e-Government; procurement and expenditure reform.
The new measures on holidays being proposed by Mr Howlin’s department will see some staff gain additional days off, many more could lose out. Sources suggested that staff who lose leave arrangements under the plan may be offered a one-off compensation arrangement. This could possibly be 1½ times the level of leave lost.


http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2011/1115/breaking9.html

HellFireClub

So now there is a health levy, employers PRSI, a universal social charge, income tax, employees PRSI, but despite all this TAX, when you need social protection now, it'll be your employers responsibility to pay for this, is this minister on drugs or something?!?!?!?!?!?

headmaster

As an employer, if this is brought in, I will cease to employ people. M/s Burton has no idea how impossibly difficult it is to be an employer right now, if she brings in this legislation, she WILL find out very quickly and so will a lot of workers.

Swampy

That woman is an idiot.

HellFireClub

headmaster wrote: »

As an employer, if this is brought in, I will cease to employ people. M/s Burton has no idea how impossibly difficult it is to be an employer right now, if she brings in this legislation, she WILL find out very quickly and so will a lot of workers.

A wiser act on her part would be to just remove the sick leave support that is currently there, so if you are on short term sick leave, there will be no state support available, something that I find to be disgusting and reprehensible, given all the separate contributions that are made by both the employee and the employer under the tax headings I mentioned in my OP.

But to say that if an employee is on sick leave, it will now be the employers problem to pay them?!?!?!? No problem, but any chance we can keep the employers PRSI or the universal social charge to cover the cost of it?!?!?

This is why I would never in my life vote for Labour/Union candidate, they simply haven't a clue what it is like to run a business, the whole mentality is one of take take take and no concept of the bottom line or who is paying for it.

I'd say when some of our multinational brethern get to talk about development this over lunch, you'll see her changing her mind on this rediculous proposal by the end of the day.

TheCostumeShop.ie: Ronan

This is completely unpractical and would be the equilivant of a death threat to the suffering SME sector. What would happen is it would create an bigger industry in insurance against the new risk (which would then get heavily taxed) and more people would switch to using contractors, creating a government incentive like how temp agencies profit from the legal requirements if you put temps on our books vs bring them in externally.

neris

So we as employers pay a monthly salary to someone who could be sick, we then also pay the taxes for that employee and then we have to pay employers prsi for the pleasure of employing them even if they dont work. Cutting out any govt responsibility and in the meantime they save a whack in sick claims and then cream in the taxes for the employee. Its called shafting and giving a big F you to employers.

We have already had 3 people this year on long term sick leave and I would have been sick to have had to pay the 3 the best part of €6k becuase 2 of the sick cases I dont genuinely belive to be true and the 3rd could have been back to work in a matter of days. People on social welfare with medical cards, rent allowances, child payments etc have it so easy and they have the cheek to whinge that their payments wont be paid til their kids are 14. The whole labour/union thing is a scam and FGs biggest cock up was going into govt with them.

tdsarea...

Email I sent to Joan...if I get a response I will post.

---

To: joan.burton@oir.ie
Subject: Request information on idiotic proposal
Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2011 16:34:46 +0000

.ExternalClass .ecxhmmessage p { padding: 0px; }.ExternalClass body.ecxhmmessage { font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma; } Dear Ms. Burton,

I am very angered to read your governments proposal this morning about Employers covering 1st 4 weeks pay.

Why do we pay Employers PRSI?????

I was planning to start a business in January from the redundancy I am about to be paid.... and hire two staff. I went looking for grant...nothing...zero....this government is anti-business not pro-jobs!!!!

...And now I read this rubbish. Are all you government ministers from outerspace?

I can categorically tell you that if this rubbish is brought in I will be starting a business... but it will be in the UK. You will lose the income tax I currently pay, you will lose the prospect of me taking two people out of the dole queue, you will lose my potential employers PRSI and you will gain another person unable to pay their mortgage (total annual loss of c.€70,000)! Are you trying to create jobs or destroy the country? Home grown jobs are what is required to build this country....multinationals are here for tax breaks and we all know that!

I have spoken to many SME owners today and you are commiting insanity with this proposal.

Are you a moran?

You should resign as a citizen of Ireland immediately....and then the Dail.

Yours angerly,

Riskymove

You couldn't make it up!!!

This is completely unpractical and would be the equilivant of a death threat to the suffering SME sector

That woman is an idiot.

How do all the businesses in the UK, Holland etc manage to survive?

they have a far more burdensome obligation than what is proposed

Owen

More wisdom from the Human Vuvuzela aka Joan Burton.

HellFireClub

In fairness, Joan has done us all a favour today, because she has highlighted the actual problem with our economy, which is that the attitude to job creation and the sustaining of jobs in this state, is now so utterly dysfunctional and downright poisonous, so absolutely misunderstood, by the government of this state, that nobody should be the slightest bit surprised or shocked now, that we are still haemorraging jobs every week and every month and have over 450,000 people long term unemployed now.

TheCostumeShop.ie: Ronan

tdsarea... wrote: »

Are you a moran?

You should resign as a citizen of Ireland immediately....and then the Dail.

While we're all annoyed at the lack of logic to the situation, do you really think a letter calling her a Moran is going to be taken seriously and replied to? Do you honestly expect her to resign based on your recommendation :rolleyes:. I'm really not sure why you bothered. You're only a penny short of using the "I pay your wages" line.

tdsarea...

No you're right she wont answer....but at least it took my blood pressure down slightly.

....I knew there was one line I forgot alright...oh well I'll use it next time.

anymore

headmaster wrote: »

As an employer, if this is brought in, I will cease to employ people. M/s Burton has no idea how impossibly difficult it is to be an employer right now, if she brings in this legislation, she WILL find out very quickly and so will a lot of workers.

I sympathise - ten years ago and more I did have some part time employees but wont dream of employing anyone now due to changed legislative environment !
She is trying to make the private sctor into something akin to the Public Sector. Whatever happened to being competitive !
Insanity.

HellFireClub

TheCostumeShop.ie: Ronan wrote: »

While we're all annoyed at the lack of logic to the situation, do you really think a letter calling her a Moran is going to be taken seriously and replied to? Do you honestly expect her to resign based on your recommendation :rolleyes:. I'm really not sure why you bothered. You're only a penny short of using the "I pay your wages" line.

In fairness the proposal is so completely stupid that it is hard to think of how to address the person promoting it.

These kind of woodenheaded and completely irrational proposals, they must surely instill a rapid sense of fear and panic into any person trying to run a small business at the moment. You'd hear an idea like this and wonder what on earth is she going to propose next???

By all means cut the entitlement to sick pay through the Dept. of Social Protection, but Jesus Christ, trying to then just dispense with and then push that responsibility onto a small business operation, but yet expecting to keep all the tax that the employer collects, that is meant to be paying for state benefits like sick leave and entitlements like that, in the current environment, is she on drugs???

mikom

tdsarea... wrote: »

Email I sent to Joan...if I get a response I will post.

To: joan.burton@oir.ie
Subject: Request information on idiotic proposal
Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2011 16:34:46 +0000



Are you a moran?

tdsarea...

HellFireClub wrote: »

...is she on drugs???

Yes she is.... and she should pass them around ...because that's the only way we could possibly see where she is coming from.... if we were all off our face together

HellFireClub

Our Minister for Social Protection must be seriously seriously short of ideas, one month before budget day, to be coming out with absolutely and utterly destructive ideas like this one.

I wouldn't mind but how much is absence in the public sector costing the country every year, with the absence rate running at an average rate within the Irish Civil Service of 11.3 days absence for the year 2009. More than twice the well accepted private sector average rate of absence of 6 days a year.

If she wants to start looking at where the sick leave problem is, maybe she needs to start in her own building and get her own house in order before coming to the private sector trying to screw small business people...

Sources:

http://audgen.gov.ie/documents/vfmreports/69_Managing_Sickness_Absences.pdf

http://www.finfacts.ie/irishfinancenews/article_1022988.shtml

seamus

It depends on the implementation.

A direct copy from the current regime would mean that the most an employer would have to pay an individual in sick pay would be €750, since this is roughly a month's sick benefit, minus the first three days (cos you're not entitled to it).

Employers would also be entitled to disqualify employees from sickness benefit on the basis of time served or minimum numbers of working hours.


If it was operated in a reasonable way where:

- Employers don't have to pay extra benefit for dependents
- Employers don't pay the first month of every illness, they pay a maximum of 20 days sick benefit in any given year
- Employers do not have to pay the first three days of any illness
- They are entitled to not pay sick leave (or pay a very reduced rate) to staff with less than 12 months service, or less than 20 hours a week employment.

Then it would seem like a relatively reasonable move.

TheCostumeShop.ie: Ronan

In theory maybe Seamus. But try being an SME employer when several members of staff don't show up for work on a Monday and your contractually obliged to still preform their work but can't insist other employees do any extra hours, the government have made it excessively difficult to get people off the dole for 2/3 days to cover their work even though they want to work. And you don't know if they will be out for a day or a month, then they can come back anytime they like and you let the replacement go. Two days later they are sick again and the cycle repeats.

Talk about a bottle neck. There's plenty of good ways to get money into the system - Like a website that self manages social welfare for those who get the opportunity to temporarily contribute and pay some taxes, without wanting to suffer if they can't sign back on in time.

goose2005

Ah sure all employers are bourgeois oppressors of the working classes; you'll just have to melt down one of your solid gold Ferraris.

Riskymove

TheCostumeShop.ie: Ronan wrote: »

In theory maybe Seamus. But try being an SME employer when several members of staff don't show up for work on a Monday and your contractually obliged to still preform their work

I have heard this issue mentioned a few times since yesterday

The system proposed has absolutely nothing to do with occassional sick leave like that

its about longer-term absence...you have to be out for at least 3 days currently to claim it.

betonit

can an employer have a no sick pay policy or clause.... out of interest

EIREHotspur

And people are surprised that stupid ideas like this are coming from this woman because....??

To think of all the people who voted her and the the rest of them in thought we were going to get better then what was there before is laughable.

I hate that phrase "Jobs initiative"....no Government has made it easier to start a business and emply people....red tape puts a lot off and this hair brained scheme adds the death knell to a lot more.

Joan is one person who should be told to smile less, not more.
She gives me the heebie jeebies.

GoneShootin

@betonit Once statutory obligations are met then an employer is under no other obligation to provide sick leave covpay, though many do out of sheer goodwill. I'm not sure how much longer SME's will support it though!

First line of this page

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/employment/employment_rights_and_conditions/leave_and_holidays/sick_leave.html

Riskymove

betonit wrote: »

can an employer have a no sick pay policy or clause.... out of interest

during discussions on the proposals, it was said that only 30% of SMEs pay sick leave

Bandara

Riskymove wrote: »

I have heard this issue mentioned a few times since yesterday

The system proposed has absolutely nothing to do with occassional sick leave like that

its about longer-term absence...you have to be out for at least 3 days currently to claim it.

yes so someone who was going to be out for 2 days will now stay out an extra one, as to get the payment off the employer is far easier than having to apply to the welfare

ssbob

Hammertime wrote: »

yes so someone who was going to be out for 2 days will now stay out an extra one, as to get the payment off the employer is far easier than having to apply to the welfare

Thats not right because to do that you have to get a doctors cert which costs €50, for the first week out of work you would only be entitled to €75.20 (€188/5*2), and no pay from your job which is a loss of €337.35(Min wage * 39).

While I do not agree with the proposal, I think there are a lot of misguided posts about this.

While this proposal will save the Dept of social welfare €150m, it will end up costing all other public sector departments more so in effect, the saving of €150m could be quite a lot less, personally I think the govt is drip feeding info like this to see how it is received, I wouldn't be surprised if a lesser form of this comes in in the budget ie. 2 weeks burden on employers.

Bandara

ssbob wrote: »

Thats not right because to do that you have to get a doctors cert which costs €50, for the first week out of work you would only be entitled to €75.20 (€188/5*2), and no pay from your job which is a loss of €337.35(Min wage * 39).

While I do not agree with the proposal, I think there are a lot of misguided posts about this.

While this proposal will save the Dept of social welfare €150m, it will end up costing all other public sector departments more so in effect, the saving of €150m could be quite a lot less, personally I think the govt is drip feeding info like this to see how it is received, I wouldn't be surprised if a lesser form of this comes in in the budget ie. 2 weeks burden on employers.

fair point, accepted.

Riskymove

Hammertime wrote: »

yes so someone who was going to be out for 2 days will now stay out an extra one, as to get the payment off the employer is far easier than having to apply to the welfare

again, as I understand it, there is no obligation to pay sick leave

seamus

ssbob wrote: »

I think the govt is drip feeding info like this to see how it is received,

They've been doing this at least for the last five years; A month before the budget they "leak" various budget proposals being put forward to see if anyone bites and goes nuts, and then they review it and put in a much less severe provision so that people think they've gotten away with it.