Pro's / Cons of Ireland Joining the EU / Euro

Stiffler2

Hi Everybody,

As the title suggests please name 5 Pro's & 5 Con's of Ireland being in the EU & using the Euro. I'll attempt to get the all rolling here :

Ireland Joins EU : 1973
Ireland Joins Euro : 2002

2008 - ireland owes €173,000,000,000


Pro's

We were rich for 6-7 years ( or at least we thought we were )

We got Funding which helped build our motorways etc...( this isn't really a pro though because we now have to give our money to another country in the EU whie they build their infrastructure & it works on a rotation

Con's

Ireland thought we had more money than we had due to borrowing from EU Markets were made easier.

People became far greedier since the Euro came out. Before the Euro most people had 1 old car, after the Euro same families were driving 2 brand new Range Rovers ( you get the idea )

Before the boom we were pretty poor, after the Euro came out Ireland suddenly trippled in wealth ( or at least we thought it did, but only on paper on which Tipex was being used it would appear )

Anyone from any country within the EU can arrive in Ireland & live / work here.
This however is also a PRO as it works both ways & us Irish are everywhere so....

We no longer run our own country, everything goes back to EU HQ

EU law overrides our Law.
==================================================

This is all I can think of right now. Far more Con's than Pro's and we probably never should have joined the Euro. Don't think the EU though really affected us as a whole, just the Euro.

Can anyone work out actually since my maths & population knowledge is crap of how many people work in Ireland.

Then divide €173 billion by that number to see how much each individual owes back ???

Killer Pigeon

Well at least being in the EU means we have access to the Common European Market, which is key in attracting international investors.

ThinkAboutIt

Has this discussion ever happened before?

jonnyfingers

Pros:

We got to have lots of referendums, sometimes twice if we voted wrong.

We got to hear great slogans such as "Yes to jobs!"


Cons:

Sadly we said Yes, but it was actually "Yes to jobs being made redundant!", the small print being very very small.

HalloweenJack

Pros:
EU can decide laws which override Irish laws, i.e. no cronyism (on a local/national level, at least). Also, we've shown ourselves to be incapable of properly running the country in recent years, if we have to take our lead from Europe, I think it's better.
EU regulation: you buy something that's the same standard as it is in Germany or Scandinavia, and there stuff is class.
Travel and work around the EU: I got to do an Erasmus in Spain and now live and work in the Czech Republic with relatively little paperwork/bureaucracy, I know it's a lot more difficult for people from outside the EU.
EU investment.
EU courts: we have to update our laws to European standards, which are much more forward thinking than Irish ones.

Cons:
People bitching about the EU.
I'm sure there are more cons, I doubt the EU is perfect but the benefits outweigh the negatives for me.

cosanostra

If you include Ireland fishing waters that we are allowing the EU to fish surely Ireland would be a net contributor and not a beneficiary of the EU

HalloweenJack

cosanostra wrote: »

If you include Ireland fishing waters that we are allowing the EU to fish surely Ireland would be a net contributor and not a beneficiary of the EU

I'm sure this has been mentioned before and figures were shown which proved that preconception is a load of nonsense. We aren't getting raped by the EU for our precious fishing waters. I'm willing to be corrected but I'm pretty sure that was what the figures showed. I will try and look for them.

EDIT: Here's one post on it:
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=73266389&postcount=7

jester77

The biggest pro is having the whole of the EU to work and live in. Massive market with endless opportunities

SEPT 23 1989

Pros

Eastern European Girls

Cons

Their boyfriends

Fighting Irish

Most of the cons you mentioned involved the people being stupid with money

Lord TSC

Fighting Irish wrote: »

Most of the cons you mentioned involved the people being stupid with money

Was going to say this.

The idea that people became greedier with the introduction of the Euro is not a fault of the Euro; its a fault of people who lost their head and made the classic Irish mistake of thinking short term and not thinking of the long term. Its easy to blame Europe for our bubble but it was the individual who made the decision to take out massive loans for houses and cars that were beyond their means.

HavingCrack

HalloweenJack wrote: »

I'm sure this has been mentioned before and figures were shown which proved that preconception is a load of nonsense. We aren't getting raped by the EU for our precious fishing waters. I'm willing to be corrected but I'm pretty sure that was what the figures showed. I will try and look for them.

EDIT: Here's one post on it:
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=73266389&postcount=7

It's slightly more complicated than that. The fact remains that we should have a massive, deep sea fishing industry-similar to Denmark's and Iceland's. However, the lack of government investment and massive red tape in addition to a weak fisheries lobby and a cultural hangover that still has many people seeing fish as a very poor 2nd choice to meat have all played a part.

EU fishing policies have been very hit and miss in how it helped fisheries in Ireland to be honest. I'd say it's roughly 50-50 on whether the EU has played a postive or negative role.

Nothingbetter2d

HalloweenJack wrote: »

Pros:
EU can decide laws which override Irish laws, i.e. no cronyism (on a local/national level, at least). .

the problem is cronyism runs all the way up to EU's top... look at how many eu countries are bankrupted or on the verge of bankruptcy now.

jc84

With all these countries needing bailouts, Germany will soon try and take more control of Europe, I can see tough times ahead for Europe, wouldnt surprise me if we all speak German in a couple of years
There have been many pros of course but Europe is also responsible for a lot of the problems Ireland is currently in, and slowly but surely they will force the country into a corner and then try and take things like the corporation tax rate etc, and force this new financial tax, they won't be happy until they get there united states of Europe

Just watch...

K-9

Stiffler2 wrote: »

Con's

Ireland thought we had more money than we had due to borrowing from EU Markets were made easier.

People became far greedier since the Euro came out. Before the Euro most people had 1 old car, after the Euro same families were driving 2 brand new Range Rovers ( you get the idea )

Before the boom we were pretty poor, after the Euro came out Ireland suddenly trippled in wealth ( or at least we thought it did, but only on paper on which Tipex was being used it would appear )

Anyone from any country within the EU can arrive in Ireland & live / work here.
This however is also a PRO as it works both ways & us Irish are everywhere so....

We no longer run our own country, everything goes back to EU HQ

EU law overrides our Law.
==================================================

This is all I can think of right now. Far more Con's than Pro's and we probably never should have joined the Euro. Don't think the EU though really affected us as a whole, just the Euro.

Can anyone work out actually since my maths & population knowledge is crap of how many people work in Ireland.

Then divide €173 billion by that number to see how much each individual owes back ???

The housing and credit bubble started here about 1995, before the Euro.

Unfortunately the country largely chose to spend the credit on selling houses to each other. If it was invested wisely in export industries, we wouldn't have the same problems.

ilovelamp2000

Killer Pigeon wrote: »

Well at least being in the EU means we have access to the Common European Market, which is key in attracting international investors.

We don't need to be an EU member to be able to access the common market

minidazzler

jc84 wrote: »

With all these countries needing bailouts, Germany will soon try and take more control of Europe, I can see tough times ahead for Europe, wouldnt surprise me if we all speak German in a couple of years
There have been many pros of course but Europe is also responsible for a lot of the problems Ireland is currently in, and slowly but surely they will force the country into a corner and then try and take things like the corporation tax rate etc, and force this new financial tax, they won't be happy until they get there united states of Europe

Just watch...

I for one can't wait for a United States of Europe, it will be run far better than the Republic of Ireland ever has been. We can't blame Europe for the greed of Irish people and our governments. We can run any nation but our own.

jc84

minidazzler wrote: »

I for one can't wait for a United States of Europe, it will be run far better than the Republic of Ireland ever has been. We can't blame Europe for the greed of Irish people and our governments. We can run any nation but our own.

I completely disagree, a united states of Europe would be terrible for smaller countries and would only serve the German/French agenda.
Undoubtably mistake were made in the last decade but no more than Greece, Spain Italy etc. and let's not forget that it was Europe who funnelled cheap credit to Ireland and they were also the ones who told Brian lenihan/Cowan that letting European banks fail is not an option, they only care about themselves. Ireland needs to make tough choices, which the current government are doing and this can't happen overnight but over time. We need to learn from our mistakes and come out stronger and hopefully with sovereignty intact. It seems to be europes way or nothing and that is a dangerous path, if there were to be a u.s. of Europe do you honestly believe there would be anymore benefits to us than there is now?

Giving Europe too much power will be disastrous, but that's just my opinion

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2062015/Eurozone-crisis-Merkel-ally-says-UK-fall-line-oppose-Tobin-tax.html

Wibbs

K-9 wrote: »

The housing and credit bubble started here about 1995, before the Euro.

Oh certainly there was a rise in property prices and available credit in the mid 90's. You could look to all sorts of factors in that. We had a population bubble/babyboomer generation coming along(roughly people born between 1965-75) who needed housing which drove some of it and we had increased prosperity with overseas investment(intel/dell/microsoft etc). So some sort of upward swing was inevitable. That said the real madness started after the euro with lower interest rates. Interest rates set by economies like Germany's in slow steady growth, not one like ours in high growth. Being locked into the euro removed one control over such growth. There were others, but that's where bad government and people losing the run of themselves came into play. So while the euro didn't start the car and drive off, it certainly helped mash the throttle pedal to the floor and keep it there. Would we have had a bubble under the punt? Probably if not definitely given the other factors, but I honestly believe it wouldn't have been as disastrous.

I like being part of a greater Europe. I liked the EEC and then the EC, but got wary back in the day when the letters changed again to the EU. Hence I voted agin Maastricht. The idea of a federal Europe disturbs me. And no, not because of "Ze Germans" or any of that puerile shíte, but because in any large federal state there will be winners and there will be losers. Even if we bought into full centralised control and tax etc. Look at the US. Great if you live in New Hampshire, not so great if you live in Arkansas. Better to be in an independent collection with a central hub, a co op of nations, like the EEC, less like the EU.

Today? Frankly I'm a bit concerned to say the least. I can't honestly see an easy way out for the eurozone. The politicians are in the passenger seat with the markets driving. Italy as we're constantly told is too big to bail out, never mind Portugal or Spain and others if there's a hi finance "bank run" on them. There's already such a run in Italy and it's a gallop in Greece. Ordinary folks like you and me with savings(if you have any) are kinda strapped in for the ride. We're told(for some good reasons) not to panic and cause a run on the banks. However the very rich individuals and investors are already doing their own run on the banks.

markesmith

jc84 wrote: »

Giving Europe too much power will be disastrous, but that's just my opinion

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2062015/Eurozone-crisis-Merkel-ally-says-UK-fall-line-oppose-Tobin-tax.html

Son, don't ever quote the Daily Mail on EU-relevant issues. Ever. It's a golden rule.

My take on our involvement with the EU is that we created most of this mess (giveaway budgets, runaway property market, sub-prime mortgages, a short-term mentality to credit and money in general) and if we weren't in the EU we'd either be bankrupt or we'd have to sell Galway to the US/UK/China/Russia to balance the books.

Saila

Pro's

enjoyed low interest rates [short term Pro, medium term Con]

mortgages were easy to get and pay for short term [false economy]

infrastructure funding [those blue motorway signs, europe paid for 90% of this road!]

no borders and free movement of people

aligned with a strong currency, so everything imported [which is pretty much everything except anything you can eat] costed less.

Con's

No means of controling inflation and interest rates for Ireland and therefore our own economy[europe decided interests via the ECB and we had to use those like all other members did]

no control over what mattered

El Weirdo

Stiffler2 wrote: »

Ireland Joins Euro : 2002

Ireland joined the Euro in 1999.

/pedant

Stiffler2

El Weirdo wrote: »

Ireland joined the Euro in 1999.

/pedant

Meh, The actual currency switch over from the punt to the euro happened on 1st of January 2002

Proof = http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euro

K-9

ilovelamp2000 wrote: »

We don't need to be an EU member to be able to access the common market

Yes but we could be a member of EFTA and that means adopting the vast majority of rules anyway with no vote.

Wibbs wrote: »

Oh certainly there was a rise in property prices and available credit in the mid 90's. You could look to all sorts of factors in that. We had a population bubble/babyboomer generation coming along(roughly people born between 1965-75) who needed housing which drove some of it and we had increased prosperity with overseas investment(intel/dell/microsoft etc). So some sort of upward swing was inevitable. That said the real madness started after the euro with lower interest rates. Interest rates set by economies like Germany's in slow steady growth, not one like ours in high growth. Being locked into the euro removed one control over such growth. There were others, but that's where bad government and people losing the run of themselves came into play. So while the euro didn't start the car and drive off, it certainly helped mash the throttle pedal to the floor and keep it there. Would we have had a bubble under the punt? Probably if not definitely given the other factors, but I honestly believe it wouldn't have been as disastrous.

Ah yeah, in your opinion it wouldn't have been as bad. What makes you think that?

I like being part of a greater Europe. I liked the EEC and then the EC, but got wary back in the day when the letters changed again to the EU. Hence I voted agin Maastricht. The idea of a federal Europe disturbs me. And no, not because of "Ze Germans" or any of that puerile shíte, but because in any large federal state there will be winners and there will be losers. Even if we bought into full centralised control and tax etc. Look at the US. Great if you live in New Hampshire, not so great if you live in Arkansas. Better to be in an independent collection with a central hub, a co op of nations, like the EEC, less like the EU.

Yeah, we kind of benefited when it was all about structural funds and how much we could get. A fully centralised system would have to take account of differences, a structural fund system. Even the US hasn't got this right, take a look at California.

Today? Frankly I'm a bit concerned to say the least. I can't honestly see an easy way out for the eurozone. The politicians are in the passenger seat with the markets driving. Italy as we're constantly told is too big to bail out, never mind Portugal or Spain and others if there's a hi finance "bank run" on them. There's already such a run in Italy and it's a gallop in Greece. Ordinary folks like you and me with savings(if you have any) are kinda strapped in for the ride. We're told(for some good reasons) not to panic and cause a run on the banks. However the very rich individuals and investors are already doing their own run on the banks.

The markets always drive currencies, Euro or not. If we'd the Punt, politicians try and fight devaluations an the markets and the schizophrenic markets always win. I suppose the argument to stay in is safety in large numbers.

Saila wrote: »

Con's

No means of controling inflation and interest rates for Ireland and therefore our own economy[europe decided interests via the ECB and we had to use those like all other members did]

no control over what mattered

We had control over inflation, taxes a big one. The Government put 50c on a packet of cigarettes and inflation shot up.

Interest rates are important but tax policy is huge. Low interest rates could have been a great thing or a bad thing. Government tax incentives on property for developers and home owners made sure it was bad.

Remember the ECB increase rates in 06 and each party couldn't get in quick enough with policies to stoke the market again!