When will Ireland have its freedom from the Catholic Church?

I Heart Internet

OldGoat wrote: »

Or perhaps have a discussion on it in a public forum?

Yeah, by all means, that as well. Democracy is open to all but, like I said, don't blame the RCC (or anyone else) if people don't agree with you and organise a referendum for you.

OldGoat wrote: »

Niche? Really?

Yeah - we're all in a niche of one.

ColeTrain

yutta wrote: »

Heaven forbid you had to take a day off drinking. I assume you don't have a problem with not drinking the odd Friday?

Anyway, you can always go down to the off-licence and stock up on a Thursday and have a "Good Friday Facebook Party" and invite all your heathen mates over...

I can't say it annoys me that much but it would be better for everyone to decide for themselves. At least they don't shut down the butchers.

I Heart Internet wrote: »

No Catholic Church = No Catholic Church

No Catholic Church /= Pubs open on that day

Legislators change law = Pubs open on that day

Equals sign /= automatically making your comment more sensible

The law is there because of the church, that's the point. I didn't know an equals sign would offend you that much. Must be outlawed in the bible.

Benny_Cake

Aside from the whole area of the education system - which can and must be changed,although I suspect that the main reason it hasn't is inertia rather than religious pressure - how is today's Ireland not free from the Catholic Church? I doubt whether the church has ever been as weak in this country as it is right now.

gurramok

Benny_Cake wrote: »

Aside from the whole area of the education system - which can and must be changed,although I suspect that the main reason it hasn't is inertia rather than religious pressure - how is today's Ireland not free from the Catholic Church? I doubt whether the church has ever been as weak in this country as it is right now.

Its very important for the church to control the schools, they need to brainwash the kids before they the kids older to decide for themselves plus its a fine hunting ground for paedo priests and lay people.

Benny_Cake

gurramok wrote: »

Its very important for the church to control the schools, they need to brainwash the kids before they the kids older to decide for themselves plus its a fine hunting ground for paedo priests and lay people.

I agree that there are plenty of people in the Catholic Church as well as in other denominations that would want to block change in this area. The question is whether they have the power to succeed.I'd doubt it - not anymore.

I Heart Internet

ColeTrain wrote: »

The law is there because of the church, that's the point.

So the church also grants us a day off at Christmas? And it's to blame for outlawing murder? Powerful thing this church.

ColeTrain wrote: »

Must be outlawed in the bible

That joke is so weak it actually made me a little sad. You can do better.

ColeTrain

I Heart Internet wrote: »

So the church also grants us a day off at Christmas? And it's to blame for outlawing murder? Powerful thing this church.

It was a very powerful thing. It had serious influence on the state, y'know?

I Heart Internet wrote: »

That joke is so weak it actually made me a little sad. You can do better.

It wasn't a joke, probably in there somewhere.

saa

When we reform our Catholic pandering laws and then the schools and the form places for people to reflect, gather, connect, meditate, and avail of assistance without being threatened with hell.

It always struck me as strange how 100's of people could go to mass on a Sunday for years and not get to know anyone around them or not have that support outside of mass, or how many priests can act out a mass only actually talking to the people between the routine.

At least the mormon church seems to be more community orientated, but I think you have to pay a subscription to Jesus.. but I have heard they have a welfare system hmm *strokes chin*. Oh you'll have to circumcise your boy, wow harsh.

smokingman

Given that there are unicorns in the bible, you'd think people would have figured out that it's all bull by this stage....and yet, they still get antsy when you say it's all made up.

yutta

saa wrote: »

When we reform our Catholic pandering laws and then the schools and the form places for people to reflect, gather, connect, meditate, and avail of assistance without being threatened with hell.

Sounds very wishy-washy, airy-fairy to me. Are you a fully paid up member of the CC? Funny how those from outside the church see best fit as to how it should be run.

saa wrote: »

It always struck me as strange how 100's of people could go to mass on a Sunday for years and not get to know anyone around them or not have that support outside of mass, or how many priests can act out a mass only actually talking to the people between the routine.

People go to Mass to participate in the Holy Sacrafice and receive the sacraments. Mass is not primarily a social occasion, though there certainly is a community aspect to it.

saa wrote: »

At least the mormon church seems to be more community orientated, but I think you have to pay a subscription to Jesus.. but I have heard they have a welfare system hmm *strokes chin*. Oh you'll have to circumcise your boy, wow harsh.

Off you go so.

prinz

So to sum up the thread so far, we have two examples of this Catholic Church control, (oaths of office etc and pubs closing on Good Friday) both of which could easily be changed by the politicians we elect and by ourselves) and a third (schools) which is in the slow process of happening (and again depends on political will). Interesting, the Pope truly pulls the strings here alright. Jesus wept.

St.Spodo

The Catholic Church can stay in Ireland for all eternity as long as their views don't impede on or try to determine the laws of the land. If they're anti-abortion, well, let their flock follow such a guidance. If they're opposed to gay marriage, let their people follow that. Just as long as they don't try and affect our lives with a make-believe god, I'm cool with them.

Gradually though, I believe less and less Irish people will practice the faith and thus, their influence will decline. In a hundred years, it could be way out on the fringes of society.

yutta

St.Spodo wrote: »

The Catholic Church can stay in Ireland for all eternity as long as their views don't impede on or try to determine the laws of the land. If they're anti-abortion, well, let their flock follow such a guidance. If they're opposed to gay marriage, let their people follow that. Just as long as they don't try and affect our lives with a make-believe god, I'm cool with them.

Gradually though, I believe less and less Irish people will practice the faith and thus, their influence will decline. In a hundred years, it could be way out on the fringes of society.

The Catholic Church are perfectly entitled to lobby for and induce change on matters such as those that you have outlined. Part of the business of the Church is in evangelising - this means you will continue to be hearing about what is morally right and wrong. If you don't like it, all you have to do is close your ears.

mcmoustache

yutta wrote: »

So how many were killed per year in say, the Crusades, vs. the number killed by atheist regimes in the 20th century? You'll find that the 20th century was by far the bloodiest.

yutta wrote: »

So how many were killed per year in say, the Crusades, vs. the number killed by atheist regimes in the 20th century? You'll find that the 20th century was by far the bloodiest.

How many people were murdered by people who smoked pipes? You do realise that these atheist regimes didn't carry out the bulk of their atrocities for the "cause of atheism", don't you? These were regimes that replaced religion with their own ideologies and saw religion as a threat. That they were atheist has little to do with their atrocities.

Also, that argument seems to have been lifted straight out of the low-brow Catholic apologist websites. Surely you can do better than that.

Will the other Defenders of The Church be around later to tell us about all the good stuff that the RCC does?

mcmoustache

Ellis Dee wrote: »

Surf, Daz, Persil --- :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes: Different packs, same contents.:)

True but I'd hate to wrongly associate someone with that vile RCC.

Nodin

Manach wrote: »

............
The Church, which still has many members in Ireland and worldwide, and provides a firm moral framework .........

...comedy gold.

mcmoustache

yutta wrote: »

Funny how those from outside the church see best fit as to how it should be run.

Does it really matter whether or not a person is a member when they think that protecting paedophile priests is wrong? Does them being a non-member somehow render their point useless?

Anyway, you're no catholic either so should we just dismiss your views too?

yutta

mcmoustache wrote: »

Does it really matter whether or not a person is a member when they think that protecting paedophile priests is wrong? Does them being a non-member somehow render their point useless?

Point still stands - uneducated people opining away from the sidelines about how a private institution should be run is a futile and pointless exercise. Still, if it makes you happy, then more power to you.

On paedophile priests: notice the way no senior member of the clergy has ever been prosecuted by the DPP. Coincidence? Or maybe a grand conspiracy by the church who have carefully infiltrated the civil service. Any so-called "cover-up" by today's bishops (e.g. Cardinal Brady, et al.) was to protect victims, not the church. There was no actus reus and mens rea on their part. If there was, they'd be in jail long ago.

We are now at the autumnal stages of the abuse pay-outs. The upcoming reports are not so that abuse victims can receive compo cheques (they've already gotten their money, apologies and recompense), they serve to educate the church and society so that these kinds of abuses can never happen again. There's nothing like giving the dusty closets of Irish society a good airing and it's all part of the healing process.

Jester252

mcmoustache wrote: »

yutta wrote: »

So how many were killed per year in say, the Crusades, vs. the number killed by atheist regimes in the 20th century? You'll find that the 20th century was by far the bloodiest.

yutta wrote: »

So how many were killed per year in say, the Crusades, vs. the number killed by atheist regimes in the 20th century? You'll find that the 20th century was by far the bloodiest.

How many people were murdered by people who smoked pipes? You do realise that these atheist regimes didn't carry out the bulk of their atrocities for the "cause of atheism", don't you? These were regimes that replaced religion with their own ideologies and saw religion as a threat. That they were atheist has little to do with their atrocities.

Also, that argument seems to have been lifted straight out of the low-brow Catholic apologist websites. Surely you can do better than that.

Will the other Defenders of The Church be around later to tell us about all the good stuff that the RCC does?

One of the things the RCC does is hold up the primary education of children in Ireland. This is not so they can brainwash them as some ignorant people have said on this fourm. http://www.rte.ie/news/2008/0512/schools.html from 2008 states that bishops what the number of RCC run schools to be lower to better suit the change that is occuring in Ireland. it can't be done due to the fact Ireland is broke. Lets not forget the Irish charitys that have a grounding in the church
So far I have only seen people use religious intolerance as a defence against religious intolerance

Teclo

Wanting us to be like the French, oh puh-lease! Catholicism is not and has never been the state religion. In a democracy where most people are committed Catholics there will be a Catholic influence on many aspects government, everything from family legislation to social legislation. That is the only reason our society has developed the way it has, nothing to be with a particular church being given real political power. If you don't like Ireland as it is now you'll just have to wait until all Catholic die out or are at least deported to Madagascar or some other place that liberals won't have to put up with being confronted by difference.

Wanting us to be like the French... ewe, if you can't see the harm in that then I give up. :rolleyes:

mcmoustache

yutta wrote: »

Point still stands - uneducated people opining away from the sidelines about how a private institution should be run is a futile and pointless exercise. Still, if it makes you happy, then more power to you.

Private Institution???
Really???

For a private institution, they sure like to get their tentacles into as many aspects of people's lives as we let them get away with. You might have a different definition of "private institution" than the one that I'm familiar with.

yutta wrote: »

On paedophile priests: notice the way no senior member of the clergy has ever been prosecuted by the DPP. Coincidence? Or maybe a grand conspiracy by the church who have carefully infiltrated the civil service. Any so-called "cover-up" by today's bishops (e.g. Cardinal Brady, et al.) was to protect victims, not the church. There was no actus reus and mens rea on their part. If there was, they'd be in jail long ago.

A lack of a prosecution does not equal a lack of guilt. Using that argument is like saying that Bertie was a clean politician on the basis that he was never prosecuted.

yutta wrote: »

We are now at the autumnal stages of the abuse pay-outs. The upcoming reports are not so that abuse victims can receive compo cheques (they've already gotten their money, apologies and recompense), they serve to educate the church and society so that these kinds of abuses can never happen again. There's nothing like giving the dusty closets of Irish society a good airing and it's all part of the healing process.

That's a very cinical way to view children who were fiddled with by priests. I get the impression that you're trying to paint abuse victims in a bad light. Do you think that they dressed provocatively or something or do you think that they should have just been grateful and honoured to receive a holy rogering? I know that a sufficiently twisted catholic head can perceive pain as a blessing from God (eg Pio) but that's just sick.

yutta

mcmoustache wrote: »

Private Institution???
Really???

For a private institution, they sure like to get their tentacles into as many aspects of people's lives as we let them get away with. You might have a different definition of "private institution" than the one that I'm familiar with.

Yes, the Catholic Church in Ireland is a private institution. I'll make it easy for you: McDonald's is also a private institution - they advertise on radio and TV and billboards. Now please tell me when was the last time the Church tried to entice you into one of their churches?

mcmoustache wrote: »

A lack of a prosecution does not equal a lack of guilt. Using that argument is like saying that Bertie was a clean politician on the basis that he was never prosecuted.

Innocence until proven guilty. Do you agree with this? If you're so confident that Irish Bishops consciously acted to expose a child to a predator, perhaps you should present your evidence to the DPP.

mcmoustache wrote: »

That's a very cinical way to view children who were fiddled with by priests.

What's cynical about it?

mcmoustache wrote: »

I get the impression that you're trying to paint abuse victims in a bad light. Do you think that they dressed provocatively or something or do you think that they should have just been grateful and honoured to receive a holy rogering? I know that a sufficiently twisted catholic head can perceive pain as a blessing from God (eg Pio) but that's just sick.

Sigh.

mcmoustache

yutta wrote: »

Yes, the Catholic Church in Ireland is a private institution. I'll make it easy for you: McDonald's is also a private institution - they advertise on radio and TV and billboards. Now please tell me when was the last time the Church tried to entice you into one of their churches?

A bunch of old biddies tried to get me into the Church beside the Capuchin friary less than a year ago. Then there was childhood when the church had influence and lots of members of the RCC made me go to church.

As for the corporate structure of the church, it's private in the sense that it is non-governmental. I'll grant you that. But as an institution and in its behaviour, it is certainly not private.

yutta wrote: »

Innocence until proven guilty. Do you agree with this?

Of course I do. Our legal system depends on it. I don't see how it's relevant, though. I've never been prosecuted under the misuse of drugs act even though I have been high in the past. Does this mean that I wasn't high? Of course it doesn't. For you to argue that cover-ups never happened just because there was no prosecution is just dishonest.

yutta wrote: »

If you're so confident that Irish Bishops consciously acted to expose a child to a predator, perhaps you should present your evidence to the DPP.

The Cloyne report has plenty of examples of Priests being moved around after allegations were made. That simple act of moving a priest to another diocese is exposing children to a predator. I don't think that these priests were moved around either subconsciously or unconsciously.

yutta wrote: »

What's cynical about it?

The subtle implication you've made that abuse victims are only in it for the money.

yutta wrote: »

Sigh.

philologos

Killer Pigeon wrote: »

In before philologos (a.k.a., Jakkass)

I think that secularisation has been good in that a diversity of churches have freedom in Irish society. I don't like the idea of an institution controlling how people think. I believe that Christianity is better when it is free from being chained to the State. People who freely love Jesus make better Christians. Those who are forced by state or social pressure end up not being truly Christian at all.

Separation is better for Christianity.

old hippy

yutta wrote: »

The Catholic Church are perfectly entitled to lobby for and induce change on matters such as those that you have outlined. Part of the business of the Church is in evangelising - this means you will continue to be hearing about what is morally right and wrong. If you don't like it, all you have to do is close your ears.

The Church has no right to dictate morals to anyone. Given their disgusting history of interfering (in every sense of the word).

Keep your evangalisng to a whisper & maybe you won't draw so much unwanted attention? Otherwise, prepare for a never ending backlash. Which is much deserved.

yutta

old hippy wrote: »

The Church has no right to dictate morals to anyone.

Dictate, no. Lobby and campaign (by overt and covert means), yes. If you don't like it, close your ears.

yutta

mcmoustache wrote: »

I've never been prosecuted under the misuse of drugs act even though I have been high in the past. Does this mean that I wasn't high? Of course it doesn't. For you to argue that cover-ups never happened just because there was no prosecut

Are you sure you're not smoking something now?

old hippy

yutta wrote: »

Dictate, no. Lobby and campaign (by overt and covert means), yes. If you don't like it, close your ears.

Oh, I know all about the covert means, don't worry.

I think more people should be aware of the Catholic groups actively harrassing Irish people in the public eye who don't espouse your wicked values, don't you?

The sooner Ireland washes its hands of your sorry mafia the better.

dilbert2

yutta wrote: »

Dictate, no. Lobby and campaign (by overt and covert means), yes. If you don't like it, close your ears.

If people like you are not happy with the fact that people are finally standing up to the monolith that is the Catholic church and speaking out against it (democratic freedom of speech, a triumph of the Enlightenment) after centuries of overbearing church influence, then you close your ears. Its also ironic when church defenders bark about church rights and the right of the church to speak its opinon/s, when the very institution they are defending this right on behalf of suppressed freedom of speech and difference whenever it has had power. Unlike eras when the church had power, now everybody has the freedom to speak their mind, and even differ without fear of been hushed up, or even killed.

JupiterKid

Hopefully as soon as possible.

The Church have been nothing but a scourge on Irish society. They have stifled cultural development, social development, economic development and creative freedoms, they have put millions into misery and frustration and their depraved and sick mass abuse of children was one of the greatest crimes perpetrated on Irish society in history.

Ireland has still some way to go, but essentially its long, abusive marriage to the Catholic church and the Holy See is coming to an end.

dilbert2

yutta wrote: »

Are you sure you're not smoking something now?

Such a question always enters my mind whenever I hear someone talking about witnessing supposed religious apparitions at Knock, or wherever else they are supposed to show up.

St.Spodo

yutta wrote: »

The Catholic Church are perfectly entitled to lobby for and induce change on matters such as those that you have outlined. Part of the business of the Church is in evangelising - this means you will continue to be hearing about what is morally right and wrong. If you don't like it, all you have to do is close your ears.

Let's just hope the pretence under which they lobby continues to be dismissed with education and a modern, sensible view of the world.As a lobby group, they have probably never been weaker in Ireland and will continue to grow weaker. I don't like hearing about their views on morality, but it's 2011 and I'm now in the majority.

philologos

This thread is probably peculiar for many who wouldn't be anti-faith but want a equitable society for all faiths and none, but also want a society with healthy faith communities.

Its not either / or. I don't want a society with contempt for belief or one which forces it by social pressure or political rule.

What about the middle ground? I sometimes wonder!

Paparazzo

dilbert2 wrote: »

From the same institution that burnt young women as witches for centuries, invaded the Middle East in the name of god and plundered half the place and in more recent times covered up child sex abuse. Yeah, this crowd have so much to teach us 'moral relativists'. :rolleyes:

Might as well throw in all the South American civilizations killed in the name of god. Here's what the spanish used to read to the natives (in spanish) before they landed and took what they liked:

On the part of the King, Don Fernando, and of Doña Juana, his daughter, Queen of Castile and León, subduers of the barbarous nations, we their servants notify and make known to you, as best we can, that the Lord our God, living and eternal, created the heaven and the earth, and one man and one woman, of whom you and we, and all the men of the world, were and are all descendants, and all those who come after us.
Of all these nations God our Lord gave charge to one man, called St. Peter, that he should be lord and superior of all the men in the world, that all should obey him, and that he should be the head of the whole human race, wherever men should live, and under whatever law, sect, or belief they should be; and he gave him the world for his kingdom and jurisdiction.

One of these pontiffs, who succeeded St. Peter as lord of the world in the dignity and seat which I have before mentioned, made donation of these isles and Terra-firma to the aforesaid King and Queen and to their successors, our lords, with all that there are in these territories,

Wherefore, as best we can, we ask and require you that you consider what we have said to you, and that you take the time that shall be necessary to understand and deliberate upon it, and that you acknowledge the Church as the ruler and superior of the whole world,

But if you do not do this, and maliciously make delay in it, I certify to you that, with the help of God, we shall powerfully enter into your country, and shall make war against you in all ways and manners that we can, and shall subject you to the yoke and obedience of the Church and of their highnesses; we shall take you, and your wives, and your children, and shall make slaves of them, and as such shall sell and dispose of them as their highnesses may command; and we shall take away your goods, and shall do you all the mischief and damage that we can, as to vassals who do not obey, and refuse to receive their lord, and resist and contradict him: and we protest that the deaths and losses which shall accrue from this are your fault, and not that of their highnesses, or ours, nor of these cavaliers who come with us .

Benny_Cake

philologos wrote: »

This thread is probably peculiar for many who wouldn't be anti-faith but want a equitable society for all faiths and none, but also want a society with healthy faith communities.

Its not either / or. I don't want a society with contempt for belief or one which forces it by social pressure or political rule.

What about the middle ground? I sometimes wonder!

No middle ground in After Hours!

Seriously,I think we're almost there already.Aside from the education system - which will change I've no doubt. And there should be no issue with the Catholic church speaking out on issues,provided that they don't expect any more credence to be given to their views than those of any other private organisation.At the same time people are angry with the way the church has behaved in this country and rightly so - a little humility is needed.

Table Top Joe

yutta wrote: »

Yes, the Catholic Church in Ireland is a private institution. I'll make it easy for you: McDonald's is also a private institution - they advertise on radio and TV and billboards. Now please tell me when was the last time the Church tried to entice you into one of their churches?

.

The only thing the Catholic Church and McDonalds have in common is theyre both bad for kids


To answer the OPs question,we're heading out of the Church's grip slowly but surely,i think we've gone past a point of no return for them,they cant possibly regain the ground they've lost......my moneys on them being regarded as a bit of an odd cult by the majority within the next....oh i dont know,30 years(enough time for most of the oldies who love a bit of mass to die off,whenever that is)


The important thing is we're heading away from them more and more and theres sweet f.a they can do about it:)

Killer Pigeon

philologos wrote: »

I think that secularisation has been good in that...

Wait, wait, is Jakkass actually contemplating the merits of secularism ... maybe atheism will soon convince him!

philologos wrote: »

... a diversity of churches have freedom in Irish society.

Oh well, I guess I was getting my hopes up there.

philologos wrote: »

I don't like the idea of an institution controlling how people think.

Hmmm, maybe there might still be hope!!

philologos wrote: »

I believe that Christianity is better when it is free from being chained to the State.

Yes, yes! There might well be some hope left for Jakkass!

philologos wrote: »

People who freely love Jesus make better Christians. Those who are forced by state or social pressure end up not being truly Christian at all.

No, I lost him.

philologos wrote: »

Separation is better for Christianity.

Separation is just better in general.

philologos

Killer Pigeon: How about accepting that I can see the value in it, but that I'm never going to be an advocate for atheism on boards.ie?

Mike 1972

Paparazzo wrote: »

Might as well throw in all the South American civilizations killed in the name of god. Here's what the spanish used to read to the natives (in spanish)

:pac: Surely the natives had enough time to run away while all that shyte was being read out ?

Junco Partner

twill die out in the next generation i'm guessing

mcmoustache

yutta wrote: »

Are you sure you're not smoking something now?

Fairly sure. At the time of posting, I was also writing financial software for a large multi-national so smoking would be counter-productive.

Nice try, if a little cliché, though.

Latchy

ThinkAboutIt wrote: »

Just because it "controls" other people, doesn't mean it controls you.

You can have your freedom the minute you stop worrying about what other people are doing with their life and worry about your own!

A-1

You can check out anytime you like .....but you can never leave (long whiney guitar solo )