Information evening for new post primary school Maynooth

L1011

Orion wrote: »

That's not true. It's a VEC school with a catholic ethos. That is a completely different kettle of fish to a catholic run school. The church has no status over MPPS. It doesn't even have a representative on the board - in a church run school the chairman would be a local priest/bishop.

It is true. While its VEC run, it has a Catholic ethos which cannot easily be legally removed. If it was the level of informality you're implying, it would have been disposed of a long, long time ago as an anachronism.

Orion

Having a catholic ethos is not the same thing as saying the catholic church has legal status over the school. The latter implies that the church has involvement in running/managing the school - which it doesn't. There is a huge difference between the two.

L1011

Orion wrote: »

Having a catholic ethos is not the same thing as saying the catholic church has legal status over the school. The latter implies that the church has involvement in running/managing the school - which it doesn't. There is a huge difference between the two.

They have no involvement in running, but they do have sufficient legal control to ensure that it stays officially "catholic ethos". Which it certainly did on a day to day basis in the 1990s.

If there was no control of ethos, the ethos would have been removed. It hasn't.

Orion

So 20 years ago they interfered in the running of the school - is that what you're saying? Show me any document that says they have any legal control over the running of the school as opposed to being tolerated a generation ago in a time when the parish priest and family doctor were sacrosanct. If they did have any control I'm certain there would be a chaplain and a man of cloth on the board. And they would resist the multitude of religions that are taught in the school. But neither is the case. The VEC - or more specifically the local management body - run the school as they see fit.

The catholic ethos exists on paper only and has only been raised once that I'm aware of - and that was to stop Loreto getting patronage of the second school. Hardly an act of a school being run or controlled by the church.

L1011

Orion wrote: »

So 20 years ago they interfered in the running of the school - is that what you're saying? Show me any document that says they have any legal control over the running of the school as opposed to being tolerated a generation ago in a time when the parish priest and family doctor were sacrosanct. If they did have any control I'm certain there would be a chaplain and a man of cloth on the board. And they would resist the multitude of religions that are taught in the school. But neither is the case. The VEC - or more specifically the local management body - run the school as they see fit.

The catholic ethos exists on paper only and has only been raised once that I'm aware of - and that was to stop Loreto getting patronage of the second school. Hardly an act of a school being run or controlled by the church.

The legally defined ccatholic ethos stopped the junior/senior school argument stone dead - what more do you need? If it was as non-existent an issue as you're proposing it would have been silently dealt with, a very long time ago.

The "Catholic ethos" permeating the place was down to the teachers, not any interference. Non-Catholics were made feel decidedly unwelcome at times.

angeldelight

MYOB wrote: »

The "Catholic ethos" permeating the place was down to the teachers, not any interference. Non-Catholics were made feel decidedly unwelcome at times.

I attended the school from 1999-2004 and this was certainly not the case by then. Religion classes at the time weren't examinable the way they are now but they weren't indoctrination - we learned about all religions/meditation/spirituality etc. There was a "first year mass" when I was in first year but by my second year that had changed to "first year welcoming ceremony" and was carried out by catholic priest and Church of Ireland minister in tandem.

Orion

MYOB wrote: »

The legally defined ccatholic ethos stopped the junior/senior school argument stone dead - what more do you need? If it was as non-existent an issue as you're proposing it would have been silently dealt with, a very long time ago

The reason it stopped the junior/senior cycle was because the Minister looked at the school on paper rather than actually speaking to anyone in the area. He gave the patronage to the VEC for a multi-denominational school based on the official status of the school rather than the reality in practice.

I've seen the documentation given to him. One is a letter from the first principal Tom Ashe and one from the current BoM. Ashe clearly states that when he was principal that all creeds were accomodated without controversy or dispute and that this philosophy has been kept going by all future principals and boards. The Boards document specifically states that MPPS caters for diversity and that 13 different religions are in the school from 32 countries. "MPPS has always welcomed and continues to welcome students of any religious belief and none".

So it has not been an issue. The only problem was that the Minister didn't realise all this until it was presented to him by the delegation from all feeder schools and MPPS. Once he realised the reality of the school's ethos in practice he was quite happy to change his mind.

L1011

edit: oh never mind

aaabbbb

Orion wrote: »

Just to clarify one thing - There will be a second school on the same site. This is dictacted by the Department. The only question is will it be a VEC one or a Loreto one.

If the former the proposal is to have it as a Junior cycle school and a Senior cycle one. If the latter it is a step backwards. Loreto, as mentioned, have no reputation for running a co-ed school while the current VEC school is very well regarded for being progressive and having excellent academic standards as well as extra-curricular results.

Loreto actually have a hand in running portmarnock community school....

n0brain3r

Just an FYI the planning permission notices went up on site this week.

Orion

Well the sh1t has certainly hit the fan now.

Story so far:
Last week a new FAQ went up on the http://www.maynoothcampus.kildarevec.ie/ which detailed how the two schools would operate as two separate vertical schools: separate enrollment policies, uniforms, and most importantly ethos. The site also published the full report from Jerry Jeffers - Link which basically says the opposite of everything in the FAQ.
One of the PA chairs got straight on to Emmet Stagg and Bernard Durkan. He received a call from Emmet later that day professing his shock. An article in the Liffey Champion last Wednesday was published detailing the ETB's position with quotes from sources close to the situation expressing their shock at this (no not me).

Sometime between 9pm Friday and 1am Saturday this FAQ disappeared from the site. I do have a copy of it if anyone wants it.

Fast forward to last night - a 'public meeting' which only 6th class parents were invited to. Unfortunately I couldn't attend myself but I've spoke with a few people who were there. Patricia O'Brien - Education Support Officer in the ETB (and I believe the interim principal of MCC) was there and the topic was supposed to be how enrolments would work this September given that there is no new building yet. The VEC refused to discuss any questions on the makeup of the school - in fact a parent rep of MPPS was told to stop talking (which she didn't). People were given no information to take away with them. Over 100 people walked out in disgust at the ETB's attitude. By all accounts the meeting descended into farce with the ETB completely ignoring parents' concerns and questions. When asked what would happen if parents only applied to MPPS they were told that that was up to them but would not be guaranteed a place - to me that is quite threatening of the ETB towards parents.

This fight is far from over. There are now calls for a complete boycott of MCC and a plebiscite of parents in Maynooth and surrounding areas on two counts: support for the Jr/Sr model and to change the supposed ethos of MPPS. I'll post any updates as I have them. I'd also say that if the ETB continue down this road then the Department might want to start increasing staff in the Section 29 appeals unit!

donspeekinglesh

Here's the story from the Champion:
There was also a letter from Quinn in the recent Community Newsletter.

donspeekinglesh

Page 23 here [pdf]

Orion

That's the same letter referenced earlier in the thread and it's also published on the Campus website. The question was asked in the Champion article why the Minister didn't respond to the delegation of parents but instead to Stagg. Stagg merely facilitated dialogue with the Minister - the parents group requested the meeting and were the ones asking questions. The Minister to date has yet to address a written response to the parents representatives who met him.

Myself and another parent met with Catherine Murphy on Saturday afternoon and today she tabled a series of 8 questions to the Minister on this matter - one of which is to ask the Minister why there has been no direct correspondence between him and the parent body. Other questions regard ethos, pluralism, community impact, enrolment policies and exclusion from MPPS - particularly for children in Maynooth Educate Together, parental choice, changing status of the school, and a plebiscite of parents on these matters. Responses are expected on Thursday. The questions themselves should be on Kildarestreet.com tomorrow.

I would recommend everyone interested should read the Jeffers report on the website.

DevaRealta

has there been anymore push back about the location of the school?

All very interesting and amazing how the information is completely different, it seems that nobody (planners and school authorities) is exactly sure of what is happening! and it looks like ETB has more or less taken themselves out of the running as they will not get support from the running.

Why are these meetings not public? I am sure more people than just 6th class parents are concerned!

L1011

Location is fixed in stone now.

DevaRealta

Oh I thought it was still at the application stage as notice only went up on the field 3 weeks ago.....well technically it blew away!

L1011

DevaRealta wrote: »

Oh I thought it was still at the application stage as notice only went up on the field 3 weeks ago.....well technically it blew away!

Well, it hasn't got planning yet but they aren't going to change their minds on the location. Which is brutal.

DevaRealta

I am quite surprised they has not been more uproar about the location.......it does not make sense to me to be honest to put a school that far from the village and the fact that it will be the only secondary school in Maynooth!!!

Sometimes I wonder would the community itself not come up with better ideas than authorities who see it as a rubber stamp plan!

L1011

At the time the second school was first mentioned there were two suggestions, one of a separate second school on the south side of town (retaining MPPS where it is) and one of a junior/senior combo on a new site. It now appears we're getting two separate schools on a new site, something nobody wanted.

DevaRealta

Two different schools on the same site is a recipe for disaster.....its seems the department is willing to risk spending the money on a "trial and error" basis!
This again is another trial and error following on from the huge school they built in Longford I think it was that was disasterous and it turns out they should have built two schools. It seems they are taking the outcome of the it should have been two schools.....but to build them on the same site....ludicrous!

Example shows that smaller schools work......works on a number of levels....from education even down to bullying!
Building two different schools will result in one being more popular than the other, parents wanting to enrol children in the "better" school"....separate sports teams.....it will end in failure I think.
Even things like fundraising.....generating school funds for two different schools in a medium size village......I envisage a gap forming in the two schools that will widen over time.

Then to start on how they process who goes to what school.......that will be interesting!

Rant over...sorry!

Orion

Parliamentary Questions

Maynooth School Debacle Highlighted in Dáil

Independent TD Catherine Murphy has tabled a series of Questions to the Minister for Education, Ruairi Quinn regarding the confusion surrounding the establishment of the new Maynooth Community College which will eventually stand on the same site as the new Maynooth Post-Primary School.

Deputy Murphy was contacted by a number of parents who are very concerned about the news, some of whom are members of the parent’s committees that have been involved in a lengthy process with the Department of Education to ensure that the needs of the children, parents and the Maynooth area are met. However despite the parent’s being led to believe that their views would be paramount, it now appears that the Department have decided to proceed with plans that differ substantially from the preferred plans of the parents committees.

“People in Maynooth have a very high regard for Maynooth Post Primary School and are therefore rightly concerned about this turn of events. They are particularly worried that the Department does not understand the importance of the school model to the local community. The non-denominational model provided by the VEC School is regarded as a unifying force in the town and any move to change that to a catholic ethos school is seen as fundamentally changing the school environment."

“Parents seem to have been led through a process where they believed their views were being taken into account and prioritised yet they now find themselves in a situation where their views are, for the most part, being disregarded, and the Department appear to be pursuing their own agenda.”

“I have tabled different Parliamentary Questions to Minister Quinn, all focusing on different aspects of the process and the Department’s plans and also trying to help him understand the significance of the issue here in Maynooth. The Minister will be required to reply to me within the week and hopefully we will have a clearer idea then of what steps we can take next. “

[ENDS]

Note to Editors:
List of PQ’s as Follows:
To ask the Minister for Education what Irish research informs policy into the strengths and weaknesses in terms of the effectiveness of learning in post primary schools of different sizes e.g. 250; 500; 750; 1000; 1250; 1500 what size school falls into the category super school and if he will make a statement on the matter.

To Ask the Minister for Education what aspects if any of the presentation made by (Maynooth Schools Group meeting 29/5/2013) where considered when the decision was made to provide for 2 vertical schools on the same campus as opposed to the junior/senior option of the existing school, the preferred choice of parents; what if any consideration was given to (the Gerry Jeffers Report) which was commissioned by Co Kildare VEC; what consultation was had between the Department and the VEC and if he will make a statement on the matter.

To ask the Minister for Education if the decision is intended to change the status of (Maynooth Post Primary School) from that of a multi-denominational school to that of a catholic ethos; if he is aware that the school is not regarded as a denominational school that the school is seen an inclusive school that welcomes all needs, all creeds and none; is he aware that there are no Church representatives on the Board of Management; what role do the Board of Management and the VEC play in changing the ethos of an existing school; in the event that the school is now designated a Catholic School what knock on effect will that have on enrolment policy in terms of priority given to children of a particular faith and if he will make a statement on the matter.

To ask the Minister for Education if the pupils from the (Educate Together School in Maynooth) will be required to enrol in the proposed new (Maynooth Community College) or will it be open to them to attend (Maynooth Post Primary School) and if he will make a statement on the matter.

To ask the Minister for Education how it is intended to handle the downsizing of (Maynooth Post Primary School) what the maximum intake will be; what consideration has been given to subject choice in that scenario during the transition period and if he will make a statement on the matter.

To ask the Minister for Education why there has been no direct correspondence between his Department and the parent body of (Maynooth Post Primary School) why no explanation has been given as to why the junior/senior option, their preferred option was not agreed to; if he will agree to a plebiscite of parents; and if he will make a statement on the matter.









To ask the Minister for Education what if any consideration was given to the wider community impact of the decision to provide for two vertical post primary schools as opposed to a junior/senior school on the one site in Maynooth; if he is aware that the Post Primary School is regarded as a unifying force in the town; if he is aware of the high regard for the school felt in the area; if he has concerns that the two school model might amplify the various stratifications within the community and might lead to cherry picking in what might develop into good school v better school option; if the decision might be considered a social experiment given the proven track record of the existing school; why the parents were engaged in a lengthy process and given to believe their views would be paramount; what if any concerns he has about the decision he made and if he will make a statement on the matter.

To ask the Minister for Education how the 2014 intake to the Maynooth Post Primary school and Maynooth Community College will be handled; where the pupils of both will be accommodated in September 2014 and if he will make a statement on the matter.

Moonbeam

From what I have read here previously the school already has a catholic ethos? a dedicated catholic school...this gets worse.
My kids will be in which ever has the irish stream but preferably also a non religious one.
Is the new site out the Moyglare road?
It sounds like a disaster to be honest.
I am wondering if objecting to planning permission will help?

L1011

Its a (now, but not formerly) nominal but sufficiently screw-things-upable Catholic ethos. I've got a feeling that removing it is going to be next to impossible.

Objecting to planning is unlikely to do anything positive, the buildings will be the same regardless.

Moonbeam

That is ridiculous re it having a catholic ethos.
We are supposed to be getting the church out of schools not in to it.

L1011

The ethos of MPPS is from over 40 years ago. The new school has to be non religious and hence the issues in merging them.

Orion

Well that's the burning question. Why does the existing school have to be religious?

Catherine Murphy asked this question today "To ask the Minister for Education if the decision is intended to change the status of (Maynooth Post Primary School) from that of a multi-denominational school to that of a catholic ethos". I can also find no documentation stating that MPPS has a Catholic ethos apart from statements made in the last few months. The Department website itself describes it as Inter Denominational.

Tom Ashe - the first principal stated in a supporting document "the school has a proud history and reputation of providing a place in the school for all who wish to attend. Over the 40 years since its foundation, Maynooth Post-Primary School has shown that diversity of creeds, nationalities and abilities can be accommodated in the same school without controversy or dispute ".

The school website describes it as "co-educational, multi-denominational and none, school with non selective entry". Parents and staff were astounded to hear that it is allegedly Catholic ethos.

So where is the legal charter of the school that officially states that it is Catholic? And if it is, can a vote of parents change that with the consent of the BoM and the Minister? Once the ethos question goes away that argument is down the drain and we can move on.

donspeekinglesh

The ethos issue is really annoying me, religion has no place in taxpayer funded schools.
Am also annoyed that the views of parents of preschoolers hasn't been sought (that I'm aware of). It still effects us.
Also annoyed, after reading the architect's report, that there are no plans to complete the section of the Northern Maynooth Relief Road - and I'll be objecting to the PP based on that, no interaction with Moyglare Hall residents and we'll be the ones to suffer the traffic problems.

granturismo

DevaRealta wrote: »

...
Why are these meetings not public? I am sure more people than just 6th class parents are concerned!

Parents of 6th class students are invited to a MPPS parents association meeting every year around this time of the school year.

L1011

The northern relief road runs through Meath, it'll be next to impossible to pin to this permission.