Now It's Personal - Ian O'Doherty

irishh_bob

irishh_bob wrote: »

thiests arent nescesserily muslims though

right, but muslims are necessarily theists, so...

irishh_bob

bluewolf wrote: »

right, but muslims are necessarily theists, so...

you said thiests want everyone to go to heaven where as the origin of our discussion centres around irish converts wish for everyone in ireland to be muslim

Hobbes

Might be better suited for a new thread.

A.Partridge

I watched it on RTE Player the other evening.

Ok, let's be honest about it. Ian is not exactly Louis Theroux.
He didn't seem to have Theroux' ability to draw out more views from each of the people to whom he spoke, which is a pity. He also let himself down a little by over-reacting when he left the mosque in Ballyhaunis (you'd swear he had been sexually assaulted by a ghost or something) and when the 'drink problem' remark was passed.

However, those points aside I did actually find the programme interesting for a number of reasons:

I was anxious to see if any of the generally held pre-conceived notions of muslims in Ireland matched up with what the programme found. I think it is fair to say that while almost all of the muslims interviewed seemed to be tolerant of christians and their beliefs - the programme did show that the same tolerance levels were not extended to members of the gay community for example or for Danish cartoonists or anyone who would be critical of the prophet. While hardly surprising it was disappointing to find such intolerance among the muslims here.

While he has some demons of his own to sort out I think it was probably a good idea to send Ian O'Doherty along to do this programme precisely because he holds such right wing views of Islam. It was interesting to see that how he reacted to some situations (like being creeped out in the mosque on the first night when some dude was staring at him) because that is likely the reaction which many Irish people would have had in the same situation.

I also thought it interesting that the least tolerant muslim on the programme was Irish (Khalid Kelly). If anyone has to fear the spread of islam (which I don't btw) then it is because of the perceived threat from Islam which comes from extremists such as Kelly who looks and sounds to be more than a little unhinged.

All in all it wasn't a bad programme, but I did think it was a bit too superficial at times and never really got under the surface of what mulsims in Ireland really think. I also got the impression that the programme was somehow a little bit 'rushed' and lacking in depth from a research point of view.

Just my 2c.

irishconvert

irishh_bob wrote: »

you think every muslim wishes ireland was islamic ? , thats quite an odd statement

Ok maybe not every Muslim, but quite a high percentage. What's so odd about that?

Grassroots_FF

Judging by Ian O'Doherty's appearance and manner he obviously has a substance abuse problem. Very overweight, constantly sweating, always on edge, paranoid etc etc

charlemont

Sonics2k wrote: »

Khalid Kelly is, much like the Evangelical Christians in the U.S., the worst possible aspect of Islam.

It's like comparing all of Christianity on the actions of the Westboro Baptist Church to all of Islam based on the actions of Al Qaeda.

The vast majority of Muslims would only laugh at KK.

Most Muslims in Ireland probably would not want us all to convert and have an Islamic run state because if we did then we would have a country just as bad and as strict as some of the ones they came from.. Can you just picture Michael McDowell as a strict Muslim, He would be ten times worse worse than McQuade or DeValera.

irishh_bob

charlemont wrote: »

The vast majority of Muslims would only laugh at KK.

Most Muslims in Ireland probably would not want us all to convert and have an Islamic run state because if we did then we would have a country just as bad and as strict as some of the ones they came from.. Can you just picture Michael McDowell as a strict Muslim, He would be ten times worse worse than McQuade or DeValera.

irishconvert seems to think otherwise

irishconvert

irishh_bob wrote: »

irishconvert seems to think otherwise

I don't want anything against the will of the Irish people. However I would like if Irish people freely converted to Islam. It's just an aspiration, one that most likely will never be realised!

oceanclub

irishconvert wrote: »

I don't want anything against the will of the Irish people. However I would like if Irish people freely converted to Islam. It's just an aspiration, one that most likely will never be realised!

If the bans on alcohol and pigmeat are lifted, there might be a very very tiny chance....

Incidentally, here's Ian's latest: http://www.independent.ie/opinion/columnists/ian-odoherty/ian-odoherty-we-will-not-tolerate-intolerance-2947821.html

Supposedly the main problem with Nazi Germany was that racists were criticised.

He really is a cretin.

P.

W123-80's

irishconvert wrote: »

Of course it's scare mongering. Look, I would say that every Muslim would love it if this country was Islamic and all Irish people converted. In the same way when you see a movie you think is great, or listen to a new CD by your favourite band, you want all your friends to see/listen to it and like it. But this crap about Muslims wanting to take over Europe is just a complete joke, and how people can believe this is true is beyond me.

The highlighted piece is what gets me every time.

Why would every Muslim love if Ireland was Islamic and all Irish people converted?

I just don't get it.

I don't want or expect my friends to like and watch all the same movies/music that I do.
It would make for one hell of a bland existance if we all believed the same stuff, liked the same stuff, listened to the same stuff, watched the same stuff, etc etc..

irishh_bob

irishconvert wrote: »

I don't want anything against the will of the Irish people. However I would like if Irish people freely converted to Islam. It's just an aspiration, one that most likely will never be realised!

i sincerley hope not

Standman

W123-80's wrote: »

The highlighted piece is what gets me every time.

Why would every Muslim love if Ireland was Islamic and all Irish people converted?

I just don't get it.

I don't want or expect my friends to like and watch all the same movies/music that I do.
It would make for one hell of a bland existance if we all believed the same stuff, liked the same stuff, listened to the same stuff, watched the same stuff, etc etc..

I prefer to always try and assume the best in peoples intentions so in this case I think it's because if a Muslim truly believes that their religion is the most pleasing to a god that will eventually decide whether or not they are tortured for eternity, then it's only natural they would want their fellow man or woman to follow Islam. It's not the same as saying they want everyone having the same personalities and likes and dislikes, it's merely a person who wants what is in their opinion the best for other people. It's not so hard to understand.

irishh_bob

Standman wrote: »

I prefer to always try and assume the best in peoples intentions so in this case I think it's because if a Muslim truly believes that their religion is the most pleasing to a god that will eventually decide whether or not they are tortured for eternity, then it's only natural they would want their fellow man or woman to follow Islam. It's not the same as saying they want everyone having the same personalities and likes and dislikes, it's merely a person who wants what is in their opinion the best for other people. It's not so hard to understand.

that doesnt make muslim any different than russians circa 1930 - 1950 , i imagine a good few russians wanted thier fellow russians to love stalin for fear he might torture them

Hobbes

Or in the way that people who played skyrim want others to play it. Of course I wouldn't equate skyrim to islam in the same way I wouldn't equate Stalin/torture from your comment.

dead one

Originally Posted by irishconvert
Of course it's scare mongering. Look, I would say that every Muslim would love it if this country was Islamic and all Irish people converted. In the same way when you see a movie you think is great, or listen to a new CD by your favourite band, you want all your friends to see/listen to it and like it. But this crap about Muslims wanting to take over Europe is just a complete joke, and how people can believe this is true is beyond me.

Myth: Muslims want to take over the world and eliminate all non-Muslims.

Truth: Muslims already took over most of the known world and ruled it for more than one thousand years. So what happened to all those non-Muslims who lived under Islam? They lived in peace and prospered. Please see the link on this matter for more detail.


http://www.shiaorsunni.com/myths.html

W123-80's

Standman wrote: »

I prefer to always try and assume the best in peoples intentions so in this case I think it's because if a Muslim truly believes that their religion is the most pleasing to a god that will eventually decide whether or not they are tortured for eternity, then it's only natural they would want their fellow man or woman to follow Islam. It's not the same as saying they want everyone having the same personalities and likes and dislikes, it's merely a person who wants what is in their opinion the best for other people. It's not so hard to understand.

Fair enough.

I am happy having no religion. I find its best for me. I have no desire however, for the whole of Ireland to suddenly decide to forget their religion and follow my path.

I am happy for Catholics to practice their religion. I am happy Muslims to practice theirs. I am happy for any religion to practice their faith.

I guess I don't understand a mindset that would like all others to conform to a certain view of what is best for them.

whydoc

Rustum asked Rab'i bin 'Amir (may Allah be pleased with him)what had brought the Arabs to Persia?

With his indomitable courage and conviction which owed it's origin to the divine Scripture and the Prophet's message he curtly said:

"Allah (the Almighty) has sent us so that we may liberate fellow human beings from subservience to fellow human beings and bring them to obedience to the One True God. We are here to take them from the narrowness of the world to its spaciousness. Our aim is to free them of the persecution perpetrated against them by other religions. We want to bless them with the justice and equity of Islam."

swordofislam

oceanclub wrote: »

And considering he makes a living at being offensive, his over-the-top reaction to a jibe about drinking - and his own constant references to it - were interesting.

He should talk to someone about the fact that he can't not drink for a week!

Standman

W123-80's wrote: »

Fair enough.

I am happy having no religion. I find its best for me. I have no desire however, for the whole of Ireland to suddenly decide to forget their religion and follow my path.

I am happy for Catholics to practice their religion. I am happy Muslims to practice theirs. I am happy for any religion to practice their faith.

I guess I don't understand a mindset that would like all others to conform to a certain view of what is best for them.

Well having no religion is not a belief system, most importantly not one that says others of differing beliefs are displeasing a god who can condemn them to an eternity in hell or allow them everlasting life with their loved ones in heaven. If you honestly believed that, then I think it would be completely human to want others to believe and I think that would be a characteristic of a good and empathetic person. Notice I'm in no way saying it gives them the right to compel or force others to believe, but merely to want them to.

irishh_bob

swordofislam wrote: »

He should talk to someone about the fact that he can't not drink for a week!

why ? , no health professional would say that drinking once per week constitutes a drink problem , most people drink at least once per week

irishh_bob

Standman wrote: »

Well having no religion is not a belief system, most importantly not one that says others of differing beliefs are displeasing a god who can condemn them to an eternity in hell or allow them everlasting life with their loved ones in heaven. If you honestly believed that, then I think it would be completely human to want others to believe and I think that would be a characteristic of a good and empathetic person. Notice I'm in no way saying it gives them the right to compel or force others to believe, but merely to want them to.

i wouldnt want anything to do with any god who was willing to torture ( anyone ) for eternity , especially for something as inoffensive as not believing in him him - her - it , i see nothing admirable about worshiping a narcisistic psychopath

swordofislam

irishh_bob wrote: »

swordofislam wrote: »

He should talk to someone about the fact that he can't not drink for a week!

why ? , no health professional would say that drinking once per week constitutes a drink problem , most people drink at least once per week

By choice and he only ladted three days

irishconvert

Just spotted an article he wrote on 25th November about doing the programme...BTW, read the last line, was it someone on boards who made that comment?!!

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/columnists/ian-odoherty/ian-odoherty-so-have-i-changed-my-mind-after-spending-a-week-with-muslims-2945754.html

irishconvert

W123-80's wrote: »

Fair enough.

I am happy having no religion. I find its best for me. I have no desire however, for the whole of Ireland to suddenly decide to forget their religion and follow my path.

I am happy for Catholics to practice their religion. I am happy Muslims to practice theirs. I am happy for any religion to practice their faith.

I guess I don't understand a mindset that would like all others to conform to a certain view of what is best for them.

I am also happy for Catholics to practise theirs.

W123-80's

Standman wrote: »

Well having no religion is not a belief system, most importantly not one that says others of differing beliefs are displeasing a god who can condemn them to an eternity in hell or allow them everlasting life with their loved ones in heaven. If you honestly believed that, then I think it would be completely human to want others to believe and I think that would be a characteristic of a good and empathetic person. Notice I'm in no way saying it gives them the right to compel or force others to believe, but merely to want them to.

Ok, I think I get your point.

It is similiar to a Protestant wishing that everyone converted to become a protestant. Because, obviously they believe their God is the best, so therefore as good and compassionate Human Beings they want everyone to believe the same so as to avoid eternal damnation or whatever punishment is applicable.

Repeat and rince for most other religions.

I'm not tryng to be flippant, but that is the gist of the point right?

irishh_bob

swordofislam wrote: »

By choice and he only ladted three days

that still doesnt constitute a drink problem , i usually have a can of lager at home every other night , i dont have a drink problem , im the right side of thirty five and could count on one hand the number of times ive been drunk in my entire life and all those instances were when i was under twenty five

irishh_bob

W123-80's wrote: »

Ok, I think I get your point.

It is similiar to a Protestant wishing that everyone converted to become a protestant. Because, obviously they believe their God is the best, so therefore as good and compassionate Human Beings they want everyone to believe the same so as to avoid eternal damnation or whatever punishment is applicable.

Repeat and rince for most other religions.

I'm not tryng to be flippant, but that is the gist of the point right?

i see nothing compassionate about wanting people to worship someone - thing because if they dont , they will be savagley tortured , i call that weak and whipped

Standman

W123-80's wrote: »

Ok, I think I get your point.

It is similiar to a Protestant wishing that everyone converted to become a protestant. Because, obviously they believe their God is the best, so therefore as good and compassionate Human Beings they want everyone to believe the same so as to avoid eternal damnation or whatever punishment is applicable.

Repeat and rince for most other religions.

I'm not tryng to be flippant, but that is the gist of the point right?

Basically yes.

Rebellious Jukebox

Standman wrote: »

Well having no religion is not a belief system

not according to the parish priest where I originally come from. He started a conversation with me in the local pub, about why I don' t go to mass. I told him, because I don't believe! He then, frustratingly, told me that to not believe, is to believe in something???

Jaafa

Rebellious Jukebox wrote: »

not according to the parish priest where I originally come from. He started a conversation with me in the local pub, about why I don' t go to mass. I told him, because I don't believe! He then, frustratingly, told me that to not believe, is to believe in something???

To believe in non-belief?

hivizman

Rebellious Jukebox wrote: »

not according to the parish priest where I originally come from. He started a conversation with me in the local pub, about why I don' t go to mass. I told him, because I don't believe! He then, frustratingly, told me that to not believe, is to believe in something???

He may have been quoting G K Chesterton: "When people stop believing in God, they don't believe in nothing -- they believe in anything."

Gregor Samsa

hivizman wrote: »

He may have been quoting G K Chesterton: "When people stop believing in God, they don't believe in nothing -- they believe in anything."

No doubt he was. Man, I cringe every time I hear/read that ridiculous quote. Chesterton also said "Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions". He should have stuck with that.

Jaafa

phutyle wrote: »

No doubt he was. Man, I cringe every time I hear/read that ridiculous quote. Chesterton also said "Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions". He should have stuck with that.

I like that one.