Bullmastiff - Doberman - Akita - Rottweiler

Wibbs

Sheikh wrote: »

With the greatest of respect, I disagree. Perhaps you are confusing dominance with some type of cruelty? In any event while I am not sure what theories you are referring to, theories come and go, while for thousands of years the needs of a dog have remained constant.

The theories of dominance as espoused by Cesar Milan et al are based on woefully out of date research into wolves*(captive adolescent wolves) in the 60's. Indeed the original researcher agrees he was very wrong in his dominance theory.

The first step in assuming the role of pack leader is to understand dog psychology.

Right so, straight away wolves aren't a "pack" in makeup. That's a name, not a scientific description. They're a family unit. Sometimes in the case of bigger packs an extended family unit. The "Alpha" pair do not get to the top by being dominant, they get to the top by being parents. When their pups mature they leave the family and go off and start their own family and become the alphas in their new pack. Pretty much like humans do. The major difference between a dog and a wolf is dogs have been domesticated and domestication causes a number of effects, chief among them is neotony, IE retention of juvenile characteristics in the adult. So a dog remains in a puppy mindset throughout life.

Most dogs that live in this country have shelter, food, and lots of love. These are the dogs that often become unstable because they're not working for food and water.

That sentence is daft beyond measure.

Dogs need a pack leader to feel balanced and connected. They need to be told every day what to do.

More to the point they require a family led set of tasks to follow. Not unlike kids in this respect(though that's where the similarity ends they are NOT furry kids the way some treat them).

Once you share calm, assertive energy and the dog goes into a submissive state, then you can share love and affection.

Being calm is one thing, but asserting dominance especially the way Cesar does it, or worse when someone watches him doing it and tries to copy him could be bloody dangerous. The "dominance roll" he does is one bloody dangerous thing to do. Contrary to what he suggests, wolves do not do this. Any wolf that did would likely end up badly injured. Wolves "know their place" within certain boundaries. The submissive wolf rolls on its back of it's own volition. They know their place because the alpha is the parent and this role is established early on. Not through dominance Cesar style. It's a subtle difference, but it is a difference.

Other things he suggests? Never letting a dog go ahead of you, or never letting a dog pull on the lead as this rejects your dominance. Utter hogwash. If one looks at wolves which Cesar refers to, members of the pack often go ahead of the alpha pair. Go back to human families again. If your kids wlak through a door ahead of you does this mean they're the dominant ones? No, it doesn't. How do Inuits and their large dog teams work then? They outnumber him or her maybe 10 to one, they're doing the pulling, they're going ahead of the driver, yet who is in charge? Who tells them to stop, who tells them to go, who tells them to go right or left? The lead dog? Nope the bloke at the back going mush!. Playing games of tag with dogs? There is zero evidence that this increases aggression or dominance in the dog. Indeed there is evidence of the opposite effect. The other thing I've seen him do is overpower the dog into submission by backing them into a corner until the dog shows submission. That is seriously dangerous. Has no one heard of the danger in a cornered animal of any type?

People often ask me at what age they should start training their puppy. The answer is immediately!

Of course there should be boundaries, but again not through some daft domination stuff.

The dogs mother begins training her puppies from birth. She makes them wait for food; she controls when they play and how far they travel.

Eh how? Wait for food? If they're still suckling they pretty much feed on demand. If they're in the wild regurgitating food this is very much on demand. The pups lick the adults faces and lips to stimulate the regurgitation of food the second they come back from the hunt. Yea they wait alright, because they're too young to be much use on a hunt so they stay with the previous years juveniles in a doggy/wolf creche.

*on the subject of wolves, Cesar had one episode on wolf dog hybrids. To be fair to him he said he had no experience with them(though given he thinks he's echoing wolf dominance that's a tad odd) so sent in another "expert" to deal with a couple of examples. Pity said expert didn't realise or know that the dogs she was dealing with had about as much wolf in them as I do. They were dogs perceived as wolves(and likely charged at a premium for it). Plus some of the stuff she did I would not attempt with the real deal high content animal. If Cesar tried the dominance roll on the real deal he'd likely not survive the encounter in one piece. If he tried the backing into a corner stuff he'd likely end up in the morgue.

Don't get me wrong I like Cesar. He seems to have a genuine and heartfelt love for all dogs and will go out of his way to try and help extreme basket cases and their owners. I just disagree with applying those theories willy nilly. BTW I'm not so taken with the extremes of the overly touchy feely love bombing positive reinforcement types either. they can be just as bad with a more intractable dog. Sometimes dogs do need a spot of negative attention IMHO.

Sheikh

andreac wrote: »

Ha, cesar milan, the dog whisperer, yeah right....:rolleyes:

Sorry but it doesnt surprise me that you are a cesar fan, when you are into dominance over dogs.that man treats dog appaulingly. He shocks them, chokes them and kicks them and you think this is how you treat a dog by dominating them?
There are very few people who agree with cesars methods as they are so outdated answer even on the verge odd being cruel.

If you feel you need to dominate your dog then thats your choice but its not the way to go with any breed and in my experience even more so not to do it with rotties.

You have stated a number of times "very few people agree......." Just for clarification, is this based on survey evidence or are you drawing on your own experiences and from people you have discussed the matter with?

I am not in fact a Cesar fan as you put it. I was simply pointing out that perhaps the best internationaly known dog trainer out there would support what I am saying and appears to be at odds with your views.

In any case, I am open minded and do not assume to know everything. What I would really like though is some advice from you on handling the following scenario. Your 9st Rottweiler in your presence makes aggressive snarling gestures towards your 2 year old child. Using current thinking, what would be the correct way to handle this situation be to ensure the safety of you, the child and the dog. I am genuinely open to revising my thoughts on this if you can give me a very specific answer that deals with the issue effectively.

Wibbs

Sheikh wrote: »

You have stated a number of times "very few people agree......." Just for clarification, is this based on survey evidence or are you drawing on your own experiences and from people you have discussed the matter with?

To be fair there are a fair number of behaviourists out there who disagree with his methods. I'd even go so far as to say the majority. There are any number of scientists who would strenuously disagree with his wolf theories and comparisons.

I was simply pointing out that perhaps the best internationaly known dog trainer out there would support what I am saying and appears to be at odds with your views.

Bear Grylls is an internationally known survivalist but people who actually know what's what will tell you PDQ that Ray Mears is far more an expert in the field(and with far fewer stunts just for the cameras).

In any case, I am open minded and do not assume to know everything. What I would really like though is some advice from you on handling the following scenario. Your 9st Rottweiler in your presence makes aggressive snarling gestures towards your 2 year old child. Using current thinking, what would be the correct way to handle this situation be to ensure the safety of you, the child and the dog. I am genuinely open to revising my thoughts on this if you can give me a very specific answer that deals with the issue effectively.

Well better trainers and behaviourists will doubtless be along soon. Speaking as an rank amateur I'd not get into a dominance pissing match at that point in such a scenario anyway. If the dog is already focused and wound up I'd not aggravate it. I would most certainly not try crowding the dog or worst of all dominance roll it. Too easy to make a very costly mistake for all concerned. First I'd calmly and quietly get between the dog and the child and then remove the child from the room. I'd then try to figure out why the dog suddenly tried to pull the snarling with the child. Has something changed in the recent past kinda thing? Did the kid do something? Either way the dog would know bloody well my (calm)displeasure in tone of voice and body language, both on the spot and after the danger to the child was removed.

Cherry Blossom

Can we all keep this thread on topic please, I have said before if people want to have an in-depth discussion on dominance theory then start a thread on the topic. If you feel it is relevant to another thread then link to it.