Do the Irish not like authority/rules/laws?

AudreyHepburn

As a regular poster on Boards I am slowly coming to the conclusion that the Irish simply don’t want to live in a society where there are rules and authority bodies to enforce them. Not one day goes by when there aren’t threads on here complaining about corrupt politicians, thuggish Gardai, and now lazy soldiers. It seems to me that we as a people just don’t like authority and rules and the enforcement of the law and we would rather live in a society where we can run amok, break the rules and not be persecuted for it. And we use excuses like ‘The Gardai are dumb thugs’ or ‘the government are greedy and corrupt’ to justify it.

What do you think? Do we really think so little of our authorities or do we just not like rules and regulations?

Ghandee

Up the Ra!

Galtee

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

As a regular poster on Boards I am slowly coming to the conclusion that the Irish simply don’t want to live in a society where there are rules and authority bodies to enforce them. Not one day goes by when there aren’t threads on here complaining about corrupt politicians, thuggish Gardai, and now lazy soldiers. It seems to me that we as a people just don’t like authority and rules and the enforcement of the law and we would rather live in a society where we can run amok, break the rules and not be persecuted for it. And we use excuses like ‘The Gardai are dumb thugs’ or ‘the government are greedy and corrupt’ to justify it.

What do you think? Do we really think so little of our authorities or do we just not like rules and regulations?

In my experience, if you give respect you get it back.

who the fug

Ghandee wrote: »

Up the Ra!

Royal Academy




Back to the opening poster, we be picky about what laws apply to us

ejmaztec

It's the "Dumb Insolence" gene, which developed over 800 years, and didn't disappear after the British took off.

mickydoomsux

We as a nation have a hard-on for the underdog. We always root for "de little man" to get one up on all forms of authority, even if they are in the wrong.

AudreyHepburn

Galtee wrote: »

In my experience, if you give respect you get it back.

Agreed 100%......so why show so little respect for those in authority and then expect them to treat us like royalty?

It works both ways surely.

Wattle

If their taking the piss and not doing their jobs properly why should we accept it?

Galtee

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

Agreed 100%......so why show so little respect for those in authority and then expect them to treat us like royalty?

It works both ways surely.

Yes, except they disrespected their public first by abusing their position in government so when they start respecting the people again and stop feeding us a load of contradictions then the people I'm sure will give back respect with the exception of the minority who will never respect anyone but this mentality is not confined to Ireland.

karma_

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

As a regular poster on Boards I am slowly coming to the conclusion that the Irish simply don’t want to live in a society where there are rules and authority bodies to enforce them. Not one day goes by when there aren’t threads on here complaining about corrupt politicians, thuggish Gardai, and now lazy soldiers. It seems to me that we as a people just don’t like authority and rules and the enforcement of the law and we would rather live in a society where we can run amok, break the rules and not be persecuted for it. And we use excuses like ‘The Gardai are dumb thugs’ or ‘the government are greedy and corrupt’ to justify it.

What do you think? Do we really think so little of our authorities or do we just not like rules and regulations?

AH really isn't representative of society at large to be fair.

CardBordWindow

Who are you to be telling me what my views on authority are!!?
YOU'RE ONE OF THEM!

Dotrel

The Irish are a lawless bunch. You only have to stand at some traffic light to see the mentality in action.

mikom

Get treated like a child.
Fed fairy stories.
Told what to do, and how to do it by your nanny.

It's no wonder so many people act like children.

TheZohanS

Ah the Irish, bunch of Mr. Potato heads.

Corvo

I dont think thats the case at all.

In fairness, the authorities you mentioned (Gardai) arent exactly angels (not all of them of course, but a good few) and a few of us have seen this first hand.

Mix that with the fact that a lot of people are struggling financially, the general unprofessionalism of these people and the nice chunk of cash they suck from the economy, then sometimes we just like to lose the head!

MungBean

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

Agreed 100%......so why show so little respect for those in authority and then expect them to treat us like royalty?

It works both ways surely.

Theres so little respect for those in authority because they act as those they are beyond the law. The clue is in your OP. "corrupt" "thuggish" People have no issue with authority they have issue with people abusing it.

Millicent

I actually think you've a point with this. I was talking to someone who was telling a story about fiddling their taxes. Their justification for this was that a local accountant was fucking people over with the tax man, dobbing people in on the quiet.

I said to them, "But sure, that's what's wrong with this country. Everyone who does something wrong here justifies it with the fact that someone else is doing it. Whether it be Mick down the road, or the government, or the church."

They didn't get the connection though. I was baffled. An eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind and all that. Chancing your arm cos everyone else is doing it leaves us as a nation with one arm... or something. :pac:

ShooterSF

I would be. I consider myself rather liberal and hate how much the state sticks it's nose in so much. Though I'm not anti-authoritarian for the sake of it. I think we should have laws and they should be enforced, just not as many as we have.

And no I don't think Irish people are that way in general or a liberal political party would have taken off by now.

Snakeblood

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

As a regular poster on Boards I am slowly coming to the conclusion that the Irish simply don’t want to live in a society where there are rules and authority bodies to enforce them. Not one day goes by when there aren’t threads on here complaining about corrupt politicians, thuggish Gardai, and now lazy soldiers. It seems to me that we as a people just don’t like authority and rules and the enforcement of the law and we would rather live in a society where we can run amok, break the rules and not be persecuted for it. And we use excuses like ‘The Gardai are dumb thugs’ or ‘the government are greedy and corrupt’ to justify it.

What do you think? Do we really think so little of our authorities or do we just not like rules and regulations?

But the government were greedy and corrupt. They currently appear to be again with this backtracking from stamping out cronyism. Like. Has it occurred to you that the people complaining might be right, that there are rules for one set of society and another rules for other groups? That people are sick of subsidising things they can't afford, or that are to the detriment of their freedoms?

I mean. I'm not saying: Sack all security forces\Fire all public servants\kill everybody, but do you think on some level, some ill feeling might be justified?

Fratton Fred

My sweeping generalisation of the Irish people (as this is After Hours and we can make sweeping generalisations based on a single observation) is that the Irish love rules and regulations and get almost anal about people sticking to those rules.

Everyone except themselves of course, because obviously the rules only apply to other people.

Fire away.

AudreyHepburn

Snakeblood wrote: »

But the government were greedy and corrupt. They currently appear to be again with this backtracking from stamping out cronyism. Like. Has it occurred to you that the people complaining might be right, that there are rules for one set of society and another rules for other groups? That people are sick of subsidising things they can't afford, or that are to the detriment of their freedoms?

I mean. I'm not saying: Sack all security forces\Fire all public servants\kill everybody, but do you think on some level, some ill feeling might be justified?

Of course some ill feeling is justified and understandable....I share some of it myself.

My problem is the out-and-out hatred directed at the groups I mentioned. There is no need for it imo and it certainly isn't helping matters.

Not every politician is corrupt, not every Garda is a thug, not every soldier is lazy and to deny this simple fact is naive and does no-one any good.

I just have issue with this mentality that everyone but us is to blame for our problems.

karenharmlem

we're very special. That or it has somrthing to do with our history

stovelid

I hate all these generalisations that go on about nationalities, including ours but there is a germ of truth in this.

I think that maybe in countires like ours where there is corruption and clientelism, you get an eroison in civic repsonsibility. You see it everywhere even in the micro-level in Irish society. I think the attitude of citizens feeds back into the running of the country: whether it's on a prosaic day-to-day level or the politicians we elect.

For example, I'm involved in a local community association where I live and since I have been involved, I've been utterly flabergasted at the sheer selfihsness and cunty behaviour of most people when expected to think of community as opposed to themselves. Not talking about obvious badness (most are sound personally) but I mean more a near-inability to conceive of how actions affect the commuinty as a whole, as opoposed to just suiting them.

Trivial I kjnow, but go round a car park tomorrow anywhere in the country and see the amount of people that couldn't even give a crap about the most proasic niceities of parking etiquete.

When I lived in Germany, for example, I thought it seemed a little different: people seemed to grasp the concept a bit more and maybe that was to do with the society they had created.

Obviously, you're on dodgy ground trying to generalise though. I'm sure there are many exceptions to the rule in both countires.

Snakeblood

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

Of course some ill feeling is justified and understandable....I share some of it myself.

My problem is the out-and-out hatred directed at the groups I mentioned. There is no need for it imo and it certainly isn't helping matters.

Not every politician is corrupt, not every Garda is a thug, not every soldier is lazy and to deny this simple fact is naive and does no-one any good.

I just have issue with this mentality that everyone but us is to blame for our problems.

Ok. Well, I'm with you there. Not everyone is a grubbing swine in it for themselves.

Fratton Fred

karenharmlem wrote: »

we're very special. That or it has somrthing to do with our history

I was talking to an Irishman in London a couple of months ago. He summed it up as this.

The Irish has spent 800 "Sticking it to the Man", unfortunately, no one has realised that they are now "The Man" and not a faceless someone in London.

OldGoat

Ah sure it's all blather and hot air.
We bitch and complain and bemoan and belittle authority figures, not just Ireland's figures but those of every nation, cos it's great craic to do so. It gives us something to talk to the taxi drivers about.

Getting us Irish up off their arses to actually go and do something about the corruption is another thing altogether because, at that point, someone has had to assume a position of authority/leadership and then they just become targets for us to point and laugh at and belittle in conversations with the taxi man again.

billybudd

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

As a regular poster on Boards I am slowly coming to the conclusion that the Irish simply don’t want to live in a society where there are rules and authority bodies to enforce them. Not one day goes by when there aren’t threads on here complaining about corrupt politicians, thuggish Gardai, and now lazy soldiers. It seems to me that we as a people just don’t like authority and rules and the enforcement of the law and we would rather live in a society where we can run amok, break the rules and not be persecuted for it. And we use excuses like ‘The Gardai are dumb thugs’ or ‘the government are greedy and corrupt’ to justify it.

What do you think? Do we really think so little of our authorities or do we just not like rules and regulations?

The majority do respect those institutions look at other countries and like Greece & Italy to see that as a nation maybe we are too tolerable to these.

AudreyHepburn

stovelid wrote: »

Obviously, you're on dodgy ground trying to generalise though. I'm sure there are many exceptions to the rule in both countires.

The generalisating was genuinely unintended but apologies for any offence caused!

steve22

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

What do you think? Do we really think so little of our authorities or do we just not like rules and regulations?

I suppose you could say that nobody particularly likes rules and regulations unless there of personal benefit somehow… a bad rule for one could be good for another.
Either way, as far as I can see, we don’t like certain things in this country but we’re going to do f**k all about it and hope that it sorts itself out eventually…. myself included.

sensibleken

We're the wild guys who your daddy wont like baby. we play by out own rules and dont care bout nothin' but our motorcycles. The big countries want us and the small countries want to be us. BRRRRRMMMMMMM!!!!!

al28283

I don't mind authority. I do hate being generalized in these type of threads though

stovelid

Fratton Fred wrote: »

The Irish has spent 800 "Sticking it to the Man", unfortunately, no one has realised that they are now "The Man" and not a faceless someone in London.

Example:

"I got caught without my fare on the Luas. How can I get this overturned? I was in a hurry for work and forgot to buy a tricket. It's not my fault."

"Them c*nts have after putting up he fare on the Luas. Shower of robbing bastards".

JustinDee

Paddy hates being told what to do.

Dotrel

JustinDee wrote: »

Paddy hates being told what to do.

So does Mick.

Millicent

I think, on what I said earlier, a lot (not all of course) Irish people employ a moral relativism. They will respect and abide by rules where they think everyone else is; if they think someone is getting one over, they will look to see how they can too.

Just IMO, but I have encountered it too many times to be coincidental.

AudreyHepburn

al28283 wrote: »

I don't mind authority. I do hate being generalized in these type of threads though

In all fairness I just apologised for the generalising....it wasn't intentional and certainly not meant to cause offense.

Once again apologies all!

stovelid

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

The generalisating was genuinely unintended but apologies for any offence caused!

Didn't mean you!

Apologies.

I meant 'You're' in a general sense about my own post which is itself making slight generalisations.

It's hard to have an informal conversation about the country without doing so, to be fair.

Morlar

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

As a regular poster on Boards I am slowly coming to the conclusion that the Irish simply don’t want to live in a society where there are rules and authority bodies to enforce them. Not one day goes by when there aren’t threads on here complaining about corrupt politicians, thuggish Gardai, and now lazy soldiers. It seems to me that we as a people just don’t like authority and rules and the enforcement of the law and we would rather live in a society where we can run amok, break the rules and not be persecuted for it. And we use excuses like ‘The Gardai are dumb thugs’ or ‘the government are greedy and corrupt’ to justify it.

What do you think? Do we really think so little of our authorities or do we just not like rules and regulations?

I think you are 100% wrong.

It's not that we don't like rules it's that we require them to be evenly enforced across the boards in the spirit they were intended.

You'll also notice there is pretty much not a day goes by without a thread about our overly lenient judicial system.

Sunnyisland

Audrey Hepburn wrote: »

As a regular poster on Boards I am slowly coming to the conclusion that the Irish simply don’t want to live in a society where there are rules and authority bodies to enforce them. Not one day goes by when there aren't threads on here complaining about corrupt politicians, thuggish Gardai, and now lazy soldiers. It seems to me that we as a people just don’t like authority and rules and the enforcement of the law and we would rather live in a society where we can run amok, break the rules and not be persecuted for it. And we use excuses like ‘The Gardai are dumb thugs’ or ‘the government are greedy and corrupt’ to justify it.

What do you think? Do we really think so little of our authorities or do we just not like rules and regulations?

Until successive governments start changing there ways of do what we say and not do what we do they will never have respect.Its leadership and example from the top down.

paddyandy

Our attitude towards authority some would say is an inherited mistrust of foreign rule carried forward.I myself worked with english people in london and they were more rulebook orientated and you cannot have a successful anything without rules.We Irish are fiercely competitive and to a level where it is destroying the solidarity with each other in times of trouble.Ireland is dying from the "us and them" syndrome.Whatever is annoying them pleases us.Football Matches show what lies below the surface of Irish Problems . It's something much more than a game. There is a cancer of schadenfraude in Irish society too .Less competitiveness more cooperation is needed.Empathy with each other too.

AudreyHepburn

Morlar wrote: »

I think you are 100% wrong.

It's not that we don't like rules it's that we require them to be evenly enforced across the boards in the spirit they were intended.

You'll also notice there is pretty much not a day goes by without a thread about our overly lenient judicial system.

Of course we do and rightfully so.

So surely when things go wrong the blame should be apportioned in the same manner, rather than blaming everyone but ourselves?

Morlar

In fairness as regards politicians it is next to impossible to have a shred of respect for the likes of Jackie Healy Ray and I'd include much of the Fianna Fail/Green party legacy in that too.

So on that part of your post - 'politicians standing being at an all time low' - this is a mood which will not last forever. While it is there at the moment there are good reasons for it, what with the financial blackhole we are all looking into.

On the subject of Gardai you will always have people going through an anti-establishment phase right about the time they hit their boards ->A.H posting peak, same with hating the army or any other symbols of the authority of the state. If those people criticising the Gardaí or Army ever have a day where they or their families need the Gardaí or the Army (for example bad weather rescue emergency water supply, victim of crime etc) then they will change their tune quick sharp. So thats a temporary & superficial element in my view.

Morlar

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

Of course we do and rightfully so.

So surely when things go wrong the blame should be apportioned in the same manner, rather than blaming everyone but ourselves?

Maybe we are getting to the crux of your post - Who do you think the Irish blame in place of themselves ?

If it's regard to for example british military involvement in this island then there is blame that is rightly placed in that direction, as regards the EU/ECB there are also blame to be rightly placed in that direction.

I think it really depends on which examples of Irish blaming others are you referring to ?

FetchTheGin

When our justice system applies to the rich as well as the poor, women as well as men and regulates itself fairly, then people will respect it.

AudreyHepburn

realies wrote: »

Until successive governments start changing there ways of do what we say and not do what we do they will never have respect.Its leadership and example from the top down.

But why should they bother when we moan and complain about everything they do and stubbornly refuse to accept our part in the current economically troubled times we find ourselves in?

My point with this thread is surely in any decent democracy the people work together to improve things, they don't expect to have everything done for them.

And they don't expect to be treated like king if they don't give the same in return to the authorites.

Morlar

FetchTheGin wrote: »

When our justice system applies to the rich as well as the poor, women as well as men and regulates itself fairly, then people will respect it.

I think the never ending litany of suspended sentences handed down for serious persistent and violent crime undermine peoples respect for the rule of law. I think that is one element in the equation too.

I don't think it's a simplistic 'post colonial' thing or any one thing or another I think it's peoples attitude to the Law/Justice is complex easily open to misinterpretation and also that there are multiple reasons behind it.

AudreyHepburn

Morlar wrote: »

Maybe we are getting to the crux of your post - Who do you think the Irish blame in place of themselves ?

If it's regard to for example british military involvement in this island then there is blame that is rightly placed in that direction, as regards the EU/ECB there are also blame to be rightly placed in that direction.

I think it really depends on which examples of Irish blaming others are you referring to ?

Hmmm....lets see....the government, the IMF, EU, The Church, The Law, The police etc etc.

Everyone but ourselves.

I don't want an argument here, I'm just trying to understand why so many people can't see that we all have a part to play in this country and the authorties are only part of the problem not the main part.

Morlar

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

But why should they bother when we moan and complain about everything they do and stubbornly refuse to accept our part in the current economically troubled times we find ourselves in?

My point with this thread is surely in any decent democracy the people work together to improve things, they don't expect to have everything done for them.

And they don't expect to be treated like king if they don't give the same in return to the authorites.

By going to work and paying your taxes and living your life in a way that doesn't negatively impact others you are doing your part. They are the vast overwhelming silent majority of our citizens imo. Having said that you have a right to complain about how your tax money is spent when you are the one earning it. That does not mean you are going to stop paying tax or start robbing postoffices. If our politicians were more efficient and effective there'd be less negative commentary about them and less complaining going on about them.

A good start for them and here's a hint to any reading politicians - you do not deserve massive multiple pensions for life when you are still of working age. Respect is a two way thing.

Biggins

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

As a regular poster on Boards I am slowly coming to the conclusion that the Irish simply don’t want to live in a society where there are rules and authority bodies to enforce them. Not one day goes by when there aren’t threads on here complaining about corrupt politicians, thuggish Gardai, and now lazy soldiers. It seems to me that we as a people just don’t like authority and rules and the enforcement of the law and we would rather live in a society where we can run amok, break the rules and not be persecuted for it. And we use excuses like ‘The Gardai are dumb thugs’ or ‘the government are greedy and corrupt’ to justify it.

What do you think? Do we really think so little of our authorities or do we just not like rules and regulations?

* People like the laws they agree with - and quietly say nothing about those that enforce them in slight cos' it then conveniently suits them.
* The ones they don't (and those that enforce them) they speak up about.

As people are usually more vocal in opposition/hatred to something than in quiet support - it oft times gives the appearance that there is more hatred for a rule/law/policing body than actually there actually might be in real life day to day reality.

stovelid

It doesn't just have to be the macro-instances of authroity: courts, Gardai and political establishment. That's a given.

I was thinking of the culture of getting away with it: from dodging train fares to dumping rubbish or parking where you want. Or not caring who gets their services slashed as long as you have an extra fiver in your pocket every pay packet.

A culture that is paradoxically accompanied by complete outrage when confronted with poor services and even more paradoxically expects saintly governance from those in power when most citizens in the country themsleves couldn't a tin sh*t about anybody else but themsleves.

We have governance that unfortunately reflects the motives and priorities of the majority of the population: which is me fein.

charlemont

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

As a regular poster on Boards I am slowly coming to the conclusion that the Irish simply don’t want to live in a society where there are rules and authority bodies to enforce them. Not one day goes by when there aren’t threads on here complaining about corrupt politicians, thuggish Gardai, and now lazy soldiers. It seems to me that we as a people just don’t like authority and rules and the enforcement of the law and we would rather live in a society where we can run amok, break the rules and not be persecuted for it. And we use excuses like ‘The Gardai are dumb thugs’ or ‘the government are greedy and corrupt’ to justify it.

What do you think? Do we really think so little of our authorities or do we just not like rules and regulations?

Audrey, If some of our laws were not so pathetic we would have no problem with them, Now I'm about to skin up a joint to have with a cup of tea, Can you honestly tell me what's so bad about that that it should be illegal..