Do the Irish not like authority/rules/laws?

Sunnyisland

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

But why should they bother when we moan and complain about everything they do and stubbornly refuse to accept our part in the current economically troubled times we find ourselves in?

My point with this thread is surely in any decent democracy the people work together to improve things, they don't expect to have everything done for them.

And they don't expect to be treated like king if they don't give the same in return to the authorites.

But thats the point they have never(Irish goverments)put the country & people first,it was/is only after there own pockets and familys/friends are ok that they look at the rest and by then its all over and to late.

stovelid

charlemont wrote: »

Can you honestly tell me what's so bad about that that it should be illegal..

Because it's a gateway drug to long hair and Pink Floyd.

FetchTheGin

stovelid wrote: »

It doesn't just have to be the macro-instances of authroity: courts, Gardai and political establishment. That's a given.

I was thinking of the culture of getting away with it: from dodging train fares to dumping rubbish or parking where you want. Or not caring who gets their services slashed as long as you have an extra fiver in your pocket every pay packet.

A culture that is paradoxically accompanied by complete outrage when confronted with poor services and even more paradoxically expects saintly governance from those in power when most citizens in the country themsleves couldn't a tin sh*t about anybody else but themsleves.

We have governance that unfortunately reflects the motives and priorities of the majority of the population: which is me fein.

Well said.

Crann na Beatha

This post has been deleted.

Chuck Stone

Don't you look at me in that tone of voice OP.

No I think being suspicious of authority is a healthy thing.

But I think when our enemy is internal we tend to lack civil courage (banksters, politicians, clergy) but when it's external it's time to burn the muthrfukrs down, so to speak.

Regardless, we're a relatively young nation who's had a difficult birth and we're kinda going through a bad patch and comparatively many nations of the world have been through worse and recovered.

I think the future is bright for our country and it's people.

B_Fanatic

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

Hmmm....lets see....the government, the IMF, EU, The Church, The Law, The police etc etc.

Everyone but ourselves.

I don't want an argument here, I'm just trying to understand why so many people can't see that we all have a part to play in this country and the authorties are only part of the problem not the main part.

I turned 18 this year, 2011. What part exactly did I take in abusing the Celtic Tiger, investing blinding in a very unstable work sector and confidently taking out a 100% mortgage? Well? I think I've every right to complain and disagree with the fact that it will be I paying it off.

And with regards to the Gardaí what the hell is the OP's problem? We're not allowed identify and point out police brutality now? And the thread on the army is a discussion. People are throwing out why they think an army is completely pointless. And you're saying that makes me a whinger if I agree with them? This is my money being thrown around left, right and centre, and I'll be damned if you're going to stop me disagreeing with how it's spent.

And fúck yes. As a matter of fact I do hate rules and laws. The less restricting my freedom the better; if I fúck up and get myself hurt that's my responsibility. I don't need some fool binding me and force feeding me claiming it's for my own good.

bonzodog2

Youtube won't let me embed this; check out Father Damo at 1:10 - 1:12
YT Fr Ted link

Dudess

I dunno. I was gonna say this is ironic seeing as there are non stop whinges here about how "we" Irish just take it up the bum from authority figures all the time, how we don't protest etc, but there are good examples here of the opposite - if on a more micro level, so I'd be on the fence.
At the same time though:

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

Not one day goes by when there aren’t threads on here complaining about corrupt politicians, thuggish Gardai, and now lazy soldiers. It seems to me that we as a people just don’t like authority and rules and the enforcement of the law

Those two sentences contradict each other. How is complaining about what you've listed indicatory of a people who have a problem with authority? It's the corrupt, the thuggish and the lazy authority figures who are the ones that have a problem with rules - nothing wrong with objecting to such behaviour.
Unless you mean people are using those as a way of condemning the entire professions of which they are members? Yeah, that happens - and also some folks blame teachers, low-grade civil servants, members of the clergy etc for the actions of a minority. What are ya gonna do? Idiots be idiots.

Fratton Fred wrote: »

My sweeping generalisation of the Irish people (as this is After Hours and we can make sweeping generalisations based on a single observation) is that the Irish love rules and regulations and get almost anal about people sticking to those rules.

Everyone except themselves of course, because obviously the rules only apply to other people.

AudreyHepburn

B_Fanatic wrote: »

I turned 18 this year, 2011. What part exactly did I take in abusing the Celtic Tiger, investing blinding in a very unstable work sector and confidently taking out a 100% mortgage? Well? I think I've every right to complain and disagree with the fact that it will be I paying it off.

And with regards to the Gardaí what the hell is the OP's problem? We're not allowed identify and point out police brutality now? And the thread on the army is a discussion. People are throwing out why they think an army is completely pointless. And you're saying that makes me a whinger if I agree with them? This is my money being thrown around left, right and centre, and I'll be damned if you're going to stop me disagreeing with how it's spent.

And fúck yes. As a matter of fact I do hate rules and laws. The less restricting my freedom the better; if I fúck up and get myself hurt that's my responsibility. I don't need some fool binding me and force feeding me claiming it's for my own good.

First off calm down!

Secondly I am not saying people don't have right to complain, nor do I think every person in the country is to blame for the current situation. I am merely saying that those who did borrow and spend beyond their means need acknowledge that fact and that some of us need to stop generalising when it comes to the groups I mentioned.

Attack the individual by all means, don't generalise.

There are rules and laws in place for a reason, but I understand that at 18 you don't want to hear about rules, I didn't either.

AudreyHepburn

Dudess wrote: »

I dunno. I was gonna say this is ironic seeing as there are non stop whinges here about how "we" Irish just take it up the bum from authority figures all the time, how we don't protest etc, but there are good examples here of the opposite - if on a more micro level, so I'd be on the fence.
At the same time though:

Those two sentences contradict each other. How is complaining about what you've listed indicatory of a people who have a problem with authority? It's the corrupt, the thuggish and the lazy authority figures who are the ones that have a problem with rules - nothing wrong with objecting to such behaviour.
Unless you mean people are using those as a way of condemning the entire professions of which they are members? Yeah, that happens - and also some folks blame teachers, low-grade civil servants, members of the clergy etc for the actions of a minority. What are ya gonna do? Idiots be idiots.

Well yes that is what I'm getting at really, and those who try blame our every little misfortune on those in authority.....you know the kind of people who would blame the bad weather on the goverment if they could.

Dudess

Ireland isn't exactly anarchy central though is it? Just because people complain about authority figures and not even to their face, doesn't mean they actually put anything into practice.
Most people are law-abiding, even if many are grudgingly so.

amacca

Snakeblood wrote: »

Ok. Well, I'm with you there. Not everyone is a grubbing swine in it for themselves.

I am...oink oink! :pac::pac:

(seriously it takes all my concentration just to look out for myself adequately.... and fend off the stupidity of ****wits that would leave me with not a pot to piss in if I was'nt being pro-actively swinish)

saa

The word respect is a bit problematic here, If I'm respectful to authority does that insinuate I'm obedient.

Anyway I'm still not sure if we're respectful if this lack of respect comes from our need to moan without action.

Indubitable

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

Not one day goes by when there aren’t threads on here complaining about corrupt politicians, thuggish Gardai, and now lazy soldiers.

Well to be fair, maybe those threads actually have some merit to them and that a sizable proportion of Gardai are thuggish or ignorant and obviously our politicians are corrupt. As for soldiers, I am sure they wouldn't be lazy if they were given something to do.

Also, it would be my opinion that the government are trying to babysit us and are not focusing on other important issues.

pragmatic1

I think its the opposite. Irish people respect authority way too much. Look at the power that was commanded by the church, gardai, politicians, senior civil servants, high standing members of the community, etc. They could do as they pleased up until very recently and often abused those powers. Just look at the arrogance of Fianna Fail.

fryup

JustinDee wrote: »

Paddy hates being told what to do.

its part of our DNA dating back to our colonial past when we stubbornly refused to play ball

Logical Fallacy

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

Agreed 100%......so why show so little respect for those in authority and then expect them to treat us like royalty?

It works both ways surely.

The boat sailed on the Irish Government treating it's populace with any respect a long time ago.

strobe

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

complaining about corrupt politicians, thuggish Gardai

More a human thing, than an Irish one.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1M8vei3L0L8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8SzfU7o6ork

etc...

Pace2008

FCUK THA POLICE

K-9

Was just thinking this about the SW fraud thread. Tbh I don't particularly care if some guy guy has a job and defrauding the welfare. Just don't try and justify it because the bankers and politicians are robbing us.

Or as one did, compare reporting to the Black and Tans.

You're leeching of society, simple as. Don't try and justify it!

Doc

How can people say that the general public is just as much to blame for the state the country is in as the politicians and people in authority in Ireland? The only justification I can see for people saying this is that so many reelected people back into their positions when they had clearly let us down. How can you say that a person who was working an ordinary job and renting or paying one mortgage on their home which they could afford on the money they were earning is as responsible for the countries situation as the people who set the budget for the country or the heads of the banks? What was it that I did as an ordinary citizen that led Ireland into this recession? Ill tell you what I did… NOTHING!

These people who were elected to lead us failed to do so well (and in my opinion continue to do so.). Their job was not simply to get reelected it was to make prudent decisions that would benefit the country as a whole and not just in the short term or up until the next election. They put their own job security above that of the country. Being an elected representative in my opinion should not be seen as a carrier. You are there to serve the electorate not to collect a pay check.

To say that we don’t like authority is also false. We don’t like people who do not deserve to have authority.

Having said that we are a very apathetic nation. We do not openly show our disquiet by rioting or marching. We do not demand change or overthrow governments. We simple accept that this is what happens and think that all politicians are the same so it’s better to have the devil you know then the one you don’t. We moan and grumble about wanting change just like I’m doing now but when push comes to shove we do noting believing it’s not our responsibility to do it. People who do demonstrate are often belittled and even those who say they support them can’t be bothered to join in. This is what I see as our greatest fault the “sure it will be grand.” Attitude that lets things continue on for until there is irreparable damage done.

Dudess

pragmatic1 wrote: »

I think its the opposite. Irish people respect authority way too much. Look at the power that was commanded by the church, gardai, politicians, senior civil servants, high standing members of the community, etc. They could do as they pleased up until very recently and often abused those powers. Just look at the arrogance of Fianna Fail.

Yeah there's this, but then there's also the more day to day stuff that's been alluded to - grumbling about stuff like clamping and having to pay fines and taxes, and just basic organisational stuff. I think the latter seems endemic in Irish society also.

BraziliaNZ

What rules are we talking about being broken here? Jay walking? Big deal. For God's sake. It's a country where you can't buy liquor after 10pm in a shop, and no one does anything about it. We take whatever austherity measures and laws are thrown at us by the government. I think we do exactly what we're told, but complain about it in the pub that only opens till 2330, rofl.

nacho libre

i think O'Briain summed up it best: "There are three states of legality in Irish law. There is all this stuff which comes under That's grand, then it moves into Ah now don't push it, and finally it comes under Right now you're takin the piss, and that's when the police come in."

B_Fanatic

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

First off calm down!

Secondly I am not saying people don't have right to complain, nor do I think every person in the country is to blame for the current situation. I am merely saying that those who did borrow and spend beyond their means need acknowledge that fact and that some of us need to stop generalising when it comes to the groups I mentioned.

Attack the individual by all means, don't generalise.

There are rules and laws in place for a reason, but I understand that at 18 you don't want to hear about rules, I didn't either.

It was a fit of passion I don't really care about that. I find myself doing that a lot these days. May take a trip on down to the doctor soon and start horsing in the Prozacs

EKClarke

Its just part of our national mentality.

And the thing is a lot of guards I've met act like its a bother to help you unless your an elderly lady, or are very domineering. I ring up to report a dangerous driver and they couldn't care less, or I remember a Guard telling my Father to ,'Get that done now', when my father told him his insurance was nearly up. Like he's not a ****ing child.

talkinyite

They don't like oppressive or illegitimate authority/rules/laws

Kanoe

They do it both ways, they despise authority but yet can't wait to have some and then when they do they totally corrupt it. Which is why they despised it in the beginning.

Shattered Dreamer

I'm surprised OP that Irish people bitching about stuff surprises you. Irish people love to give out stink about people in authority, I believe that belongs on the "sh*t that's as obvious as the nose on your face" list. It's tragic that all we Irish ever do is piss & moan but hey if we decided to rise up against "the man" properly ie not a bunch of smelly hippies in tents who are mostly middle class kids who don't realize without "the man" Mummy & Daddy couldn't afford to give them money to go stink up the place with their bullsh*t, people would piss & moan about that too, just like I just pissed & moaned about stinky hippies. They moaned about it in 1916 & they're probably going to moan about it in 2916.

Arianna_26

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

As a regular poster on Boards I am slowly coming to the conclusion that the Irish simply don’t want to live in a society where there are rules and authority bodies to enforce them. Not one day goes by when there aren’t threads on here complaining about corrupt politicians, thuggish Gardai, and now lazy soldiers. It seems to me that we as a people just don’t like authority and rules and the enforcement of the law and we would rather live in a society where we can run amok, break the rules and not be persecuted for it. And we use excuses like ‘The Gardai are dumb thugs’ or ‘the government are greedy and corrupt’ to justify it.

What do you think? Do we really think so little of our authorities or do we just not like rules and regulations?

In Ireland we have plenty to complain about, we are blessed by the ineptitude of our government/politicians/gardai. No doubt they would bless your ignorance and mindless desire for compliance.

It's not about not liking rules and regulations - you can't just lump them all together like that, rules and such impact in different ways, you need to think them through individually not just say - I'm willing to agree to whatever you think is good. Some laws/sanctions etc are right and some are wrong.

For instance if Irish citizens think the government are wrong they have the right to protest, after all the power is supposed to reside with them, why shouldn't they make their voices heard? If they don't it's not a democracy, it's a dictatorship. Why shouldn't they let their indignation be known? Would you prefer citizens just shut up and take whatever the government decides to dish out in order to appease Europe?

People have a right to make their disagreement known, I'm not a student myself but I am damn proud to see all the students who were out today protesting against the introduction of fees. If they didn't do this there is a very good chance that most undergraduates will be unable to access fourth level education because they can't afford it. More of us should be at the same in areas that concern us (not that third level education shouldn't concern us as a collective, no doubt all of us know someone who could benefit from not re-introducing fees). I think it's our duty as citizens to stand up for what we believe in through peaceful protests.

I do not believe that Irish people think that we should be a lawless country or a country without a government. But you have to understand that people don't pluck it from the air when they level accusations at the gardai and politicians - some of them are corrupt.

But what's the alternative to opposing them? This 'ah sure we just have to muddle through and put up with it' ideology that seems to be in most Irish people is what has gotten us to where we are - fcuked! If anything we need to stand up to gardai and politicians more because, guess what OP, they do abuse their positions.

Seems to me you would do well under a dictatorship, OP. Put up and shut up. Well Ireland isn't exactly France in terms of liberty, there were students of 20 out protesting cuts in the old age pension in France a few months ago (could be a year ago at this stage) but they cared because they could see it in the pipe line for them. I wish sometimes Ireland was like that, rather than tearing strips of each other ('you should take a cut in this before I have to take a cut in that' etc) we should focus on the larger picture.

If anything this thread has reminded me we don't hold our officials to account enough.

K-9

Students protest, that's what students do. I Did it before free fees and if I was one again, would probably do it again!

Arianna_26

K-9 wrote: »

Students protest, that's what students do. I Did it before free fees and if I was one again, would probably do it again!

Yeah, you're missing the point of my post if that is what you're referring to. Just because you're not a student doesn't mean you automatically should think it's fine to re-introduce fourth level fees, you should think it through, inform yourself.

Nice to see that my theory is correct though, Ireland is still a country that doesn't care as a collective, individuals decide if it's something they care about in the present. No forward thinking, no my kids may need access to fourth level education at some stage.

I may be alone in thinking this but I think that our individualist way of looking at things is the reason we are in such deep, deep water. We are absolutely rubbish at forming a collective and protesting against inept (or backtracking in this case) governments.

If it doesn't affect me right now, I couldn't be bothered and damn, won't those students just protest over anything? :rolleyes:

K-9

Arianna_26 wrote: »

Yeah, you're missing the point of my post if that is what you're referring to. Just because you're not a student doesn't mean you automatically should think it's fine to re-introduce fourth level fees, you should think it through, inform yourself.

Nice to see that my theory is correct though, Ireland is still a country that doesn't care as a collective, individuals decide if it's something they care about in the present. No forward thinking, no my kids may need access to fourth level education at some stage.

I may be alone in thinking this but I think that our individualist way of looking at things is the reason we are in such deep, deep water. We are absolutely rubbish at forming a collective and protesting against inept (or backtracking in this case) governments.

If it doesn't affect me right now, I couldn't be bothered and damn, won't those students just protest over anything? :rolleyes:

Yeah, I protested as a student before free fees, but actually was always against free fees. After 15 or so years of free fees, still am.

It's because I care as a collective I think that way. I'm quite the left wing, liberal, after thinking things through, just not on this one. Your all knowing condescension is touching though.