Saint Padre Pio's stigmata 'exposed'

gent9662

Apparently Pio was bluffing! Whats next for the catholic church!!

ITALY'S Padre Pio used carbolic acid to cause bleeding wounds on his hands that he claimed were replicas of Christ's, according to a new book.

Pio, a former monk who died in 1968 aged 81, wore gloves because his hands bled constantly for 50 years in what were revered as stigmata wounds.

He became Italy's most loved saint after he was canonised by Pope John Paul II in 2002.

But a new book has heaped more scorn on the claims that his wounds were duplicates of those suffered by Jesus during the crucifixion.

Italian historian Professor Sergio Luzzatto has discovered documents including a letter from a pharmacist who arranged carbolic acid for Pio.

Professor Luzzatto suggests in Padre Pio: Miracle and Politics in a Secular Age that it was the corrosive acid that caused the bleeding on the saint's hands.

He also said many Popes had expressed doubts and suggested the Vatican only canonised Pio – real name Francesco Forgione – because of public pressure.

"Human beings – and particularly the most fragile among them – will still need to look at figures such as Padre Pio to get, if not miracles, then at least consolation and hope," Professor Luzzatto said, according the the Sun.

Professor Luzzatto previously referred to the documents, found in the Vatican's archive, in The Other Christ: Padre Pio and 19th Century Italy.

His claims were dismissed by the Catholic Anti-Defamation League in 2007.

Pietro Siffi, the president of the League, said at the time: "We would like to remind Mr Luzzatto that according to Catholic doctrine, canonisation carries with it papal infallibility.

"We would like to suggest to Mr Luzzatto that he dedicates his energies to studying religion properly."

georgieporgy

dclane wrote: »

Apparently Pio was bluffing! Whats next for the catholic church!!

ITALY'S Padre Pio used carbolic acid to cause bleeding wounds on his hands that he claimed were replicas of Christ's, according to a new book.

Pio, a former monk who died in 1968 aged 81, wore gloves because his hands bled constantly for 50 years in what were revered as stigmata wounds.

He became Italy's most loved saint after he was canonised by Pope John Paul II in 2002.

But a new book has heaped more scorn on the claims that his wounds were duplicates of those suffered by Jesus during the crucifixion.

Italian historian Professor Sergio Luzzatto has discovered documents including a letter from a pharmacist who arranged carbolic acid for Pio.

Professor Luzzatto suggests in Padre Pio: Miracle and Politics in a Secular Age that it was the corrosive acid that caused the bleeding on the saint's hands.

He also said many Popes had expressed doubts and suggested the Vatican only canonised Pio – real name Francesco Forgione – because of public pressure.

"Human beings – and particularly the most fragile among them – will still need to look at figures such as Padre Pio to get, if not miracles, then at least consolation and hope," Professor Luzzatto said, according the the Sun.

Professor Luzzatto previously referred to the documents, found in the Vatican's archive, in The Other Christ: Padre Pio and 19th Century Italy.

His claims were dismissed by the Catholic Anti-Defamation League in 2007.

Pietro Siffi, the president of the League, said at the time: "We would like to remind Mr Luzzatto that according to Catholic doctrine, canonisation carries with it papal infallibility.

"We would like to suggest to Mr Luzzatto that he dedicates his energies to studying religion properly."

As far as I know,mainstream medicine used carbolic acid to clean wounds and relieve itching in the good old days. We have better products now so it's not such a household remedy anymore. Perhaps Mr Luzzatto confused "clean" with "cause".

Plazaman

To carry on, what I assume would be, a quite painful procedure to make your hands bleed constantly for 50 years deserves some lines in the annals of history. If true, of course it could be classed as foolish or even deception but as it was dedication to his beliefs (and wasn't hurting anyone else), I would say merits something.

Littlehorny

Plazaman wrote: »

To carry on, what I assume would be, a quite painful procedure to make your hands bleed constantly for 50 years deserves some lines in the annals of history. If true, of course it could be classed as foolish or even deception but as it was dedication to his beliefs (and wasn't hurting anyone else), I would say merits something.

If when he was alive he made it public knowledge that the wounds were self inflicted by himself as a form of penance or as dedication to his beliefs then his actions might have carried some merit. If this story is true and i hope it isnt, then it is deception unfortunately.

Onesimus

So Luzzato heard that padro pio ordered carbolic acid thats used for medicinal reasons, then he decides to create this theory in his head that for 50 years St.Pio used it to create his wounds. And all the atheists/agnostics/anti-religious/Christians push the theory that they so desperately want to be true and rejoice in it as if it were true and provide yet more examples of their great faith in things that have no evidence.

Sounds like something you'd see in Ok Magazine.

Meh.

darjeeling

He could fly, too! At least that's what the travel writer Norman Lewis heard when he was in Naples in 1944:

Norman Lewis (Naples '44) wrote:

’At Pomigliano we have a flying monk who also demonstrates the stigmata. The monk claims that on an occasion last year when an aerial dog-fight was in progress, he soared up to the sky to catch in his arms the pilot of a stricken Italian plane, and bring him safely to earth. Most of the Neopolitans I know - some of them educated men - are convinced of the truth of this story.’

(a footnote identifies the flying monk as Padre Pio)

alex73

Stigmata are never a cause of canonisation. He was made a Saint not on that bases.

I always found the whole stigmata thing completely unbelievable tbh even as a child.

Keylem

That 'news' has been doing the rounds since 2007. Carbolic Acid (phenol) was generally used to sterilise needles, when alcholol wasn't freely available.

Luzzato should have 'tested' it out on his own hands, to see if he would the same results, it's also poisonous so I doubt if he'd survive!

Doc Farrell

It must be a new translation of the Italian title that came out 4 years ago?

http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/new_book_on_padre_pio_not_an_attack_says_catholic_journalist/

Actually the various opinions about st. padre pio throughout the 20th century within the Catholic church is very dramatic.

Wikipedia is your friend. As for first post, it sounds like a tabloid review.

h2005

Plazaman wrote: »

To carry on, what I assume would be, a quite painful procedure to make your hands bleed constantly for 50 years deserves some lines in the annals of history. If true, of course it could be classed as foolish or even deception but as it was dedication to his beliefs (and wasn't hurting anyone else), I would say merits something.

Plenty of people self harm looks like he was no different pity people weren`t able to help him

The Quadratic Equation

dclane wrote: »

Apparently Pio was bluffing! Whats next for the catholic church!!

I'm afraid your conspiracy theory is ancient and to be expected. We've heard them all before.

mcmoustache

I'm curious about the non-catholic view on this. Is the Padre Pio thing exclusively catholic and more generally, is stigmata also exclusive to the RCC?

Assuming a New Testament Christian God, I have no idea why he would do such a thing to a person. It just seems cruel. If he wanted to show the world that PP was special and connected to Christ, surely there are kinder ways to do this than making his hands bleed?

soterpisc

I am having a good laugh at the ignorance of this thread!!....... My God millions of people used carbolic acid or Phenol, It once was widely used as an antiseptic, especially as Carbolic soap for the best part of the last century. If you are going to cause an open wound there are a lot easier and quicker ways than carbolic acid. (Phenol is also toxic, Nazi's used it the kill jews)

Anyway there are many medical reports on his wounds, He had them on hands, feet and side.

have a read of the science behind it

http://www.pdtsigns.com/pioscientific.html

mathepac

dclane wrote: »

... according the the Sun. ...

Well Holy God, a publication renowned for it's objectivity, fairness and accuracy, that has never ever published an article, a photograph or other information obtained by illegal or morally questionable means, a paper that stops just short of printing "ja no wot i mean, innit, lol (smiley face)!!!?!" at the end of each phrase (they don't seem to understand sentences and paragraphs). Having exhausted their repertoire of xenophobic and homophobic utterances, they have now taken to printing articles they don't understand about people they never heard of.

My real opinion of the Sun? Marvellous paper for packing crockery for house moves.

roman1234

Elaborate trolling deleted

Ken bryan

If Padre pio had of used acid
He would of Side effects Such as seizures .
He never had any seizures .
or other side effects accociated Carbolic acid

The substance may cause harmful effects on the central nervous system and heart, resulting in dysrhythmia, seizures, and coma.[30] The kidneys may be affected as well. Exposure may result in death and the effects may be delayed. Long-term or repeated exposure of the substance may have harmful effects on the liver and kidneys

LordSutch

mcmoustache wrote: »

I'm curious about the non-catholic view on this. Is the Padre Pio thing exclusively catholic and more generally, is stigmata also exclusive to the RCC?

I don't know about the non-catholic view, but as a member of the Anglican church I can safely say that we tend steer away from such beliefs, these would also include 'miracles' performed at Knock or Lourdes, plus moving statues. However, if some members of the RCC believe in Padre Pio's stigmata, then their belief is to be respected by all other Christians (even if we fervently disagree with them).

gimmebroadband

I am very fond of St. Pio, but I never believed the moving statues phenomena!

eyescreamcone

We all know the stories about Padre Pio but is any one aware that in his youth he was involved in sport and showed enough potential in his chosen sport of football to be scouted for the local professional team.
But the church came first.
Similar to Pope John Paul 11 he was a goalkeeper of note, that is until the stigmata started.
Even in those early days he had his critics - they kept on to him for letting the ball through his hands

Padre Pio - The patron saint of bad goalkeepers!!!

Deaf student

Heard a story from a guy, who went to the same boarding school as myself. He was much older than myself. I heard that he was knocked down by a motor cyclist near half penny bridge in Dublin many years ago. He sustained lot of physical damage to his body after motorbike incident. He went into coma as he required 3 or 4 surgeries to correct the damage near the hip and chest- few severe fractures here and there.

He went into coma for three weeks and half with no prospect of full recovery or otherwise. His late mother called to a priest during the night, who held Padre Pio's gloves in his possession. So that priest who came next following day and placed Padre Pio's glove, which had touched his brain and face/body etc.

Also he, that nameless priest also placed another relic of Padre Pio's under the guys's pillow overnight. He woke up the next morning much to the astonishment of his consultant/nurses and his own parents/family as well. They didn't expect to him to wake up after three weeks in coma and recover back to normal. He recovered back slowly after leaving hospital but he wasn't the same person as he used to be.

The big miracle was that he wasn't expected to live according to the medical doctor's/nurse's expectations(who dealt with his case) after the motorbike crash incident but he lives up to this day.

He admitted that he was quite emotional when he visited Padre Pio's tomb in Italy few years later after that motorbike incident. That was because he knew that Padre Pio saved his life when he was in coma.

Graces7

darjeeling wrote: »

He could fly, too! At least that's what the travel writer Norman Lewis heard when he was in Naples in 1944:

Levitation is rare but happens. Look up Joseph Cupertino ...

Graces7

Deaf student wrote: »

Heard a story from a guy, who went to the same boarding school as myself. He was much older than myself. I heard that he was knocked down by a motor cyclist near half penny bridge in Dublin many years ago. He sustained lot of physical damage to his body after motorbike incident. He went into coma as he required 3 or 4 surgeries to correct the damage near the hip and chest- few severe fractures here and there.

He went into coma for three weeks and half with no prospect of full recovery or otherwise. His late mother called to a priest during the night, who held Padre Pio's gloves in his possession. So that priest who came next following day and placed Padre Pio's glove, which had touched his brain and face/body etc.

Also he, that nameless priest also placed another relic of Padre Pio's under the guys's pillow overnight. He woke up the next morning much to the astonishment of his consultant/nurses and his own parents/family as well. They didn't expect to him to wake up after three weeks in coma and recover back to normal. He recovered back slowly after leaving hospital but he wasn't the same person as he used to be.

The big miracle was that he wasn't expected to live according to the medical doctor's/nurse's expectations(who dealt with his case) after the motorbike crash incident but he lives up to this day.

He admitted that he was quite emotional when he visited Padre Pio's tomb in Italy few years later after that motorbike incident. That was because he knew that Padre Pio saved his life when he was in coma.

There are many such healings like this thankfully.

Graces7

LordSutch wrote: »

I don't know about the non-catholic view, but as a member of the Anglican church I can safely say that we tend steer away from such beliefs, these would also include 'miracles' performed at Knock or Lourdes, plus moving statues. However, if some members of the RCC believe in Padre Pio's stigmata, then their belief is to be respected by all other Christians (even if we fervently disagree with them).

Miracles do happen. Our loss if we deliberately ignore their reality. Closes a door for you . Thankfully the recipients accept the reality ,, and after all Jesus and the apostles healed. Who are we to deny or limit the power of God? And re Padre Pio; he had to fight for everything he experienced. These phenomena are rigorously tested by the Church. The authoritative book on Padre Pio is by Ruffin, and makes impressive and humbling reading. google stigmata also; many suffered them., Sure there are some fakes. But not all by any means. And please know that many many Anglicans do believe in stigmata and miracles, myself included, so to say " we" is erroneous.

cattolico

The Stigmata is NOT a sign of sainthood or holiness. He was NOT made a saint because he had the stigmata. He was made a saint for a long list of other reasons and those reason lent weight that his stigmata was real, but had he JUST had the stigmata it would not have been enough to make him a saint. His Gift of Reading Souls was a far greater sign of holiness than his stigmata. In a year he would hear confession from over 100,000 people.

LordSutch

Graces7 wrote: »

Miracles do happen. Our loss if we deliberately ignore their reality. Closes a door for you . Thankfully the recipients accept the reality ,, and after all Jesus and the apostles healed. Who are we to deny or limit the power of God? And re Padre Pio; he had to fight for everything he experienced. These phenomena are rigorously tested by the Church. The authoritative book on Padre Pio is by Ruffin, and makes impressive and humbling reading. google stigmata also; many suffered them., Sure there are some fakes. But not all by any means. And please know that many many Anglicans do believe in stigmata and miracles, myself included, so to say " we" is erroneous.

I should really have said Church of Ireland (instead of Anglicans). Seeing as the CofI is mostly very low Church, and as such, worshipers in the Church Of Ireland (exceptions noted) would not normally entertain such 'High Church' beliefs, which would be more common in the Church of England. I say all this with respect and the appreciation that all Christian ideals and understandings are valid and to be respected.

PS; I personally fancy a pilgramage to Canterbury at some stage in the future (if that's not in contradiction of my low Church CofI upbringing) )

lazybones32

LordSutch (or those who know): what is high church and low church and could you give a few small examples of the beliefs that either "would not normally entertain"?

looksee

The easiest way of describing the difference between high church and low church is that in the Anglican high church you would be hard pressed to know whether you were in a Catholic church - apart from the transubstantiation there is very little difference. This kind of dilutes down the line till you get to small country Anglican churches that really look very similar to a noncomformist chapel. You do get something similar in Catholic churches - you can have the processing and incense swinging and so on at one extreme and the small country church with little more than simple Stations of the Cross and a crucifix to show it is a Catholic church at all.

It is not entirely a matter of being one or the other, there are lots of shades of difference, it largely depends on the Vicar I think, though there is an element of finance and religious snobbery about it too.

looksee

duplicate

Iscreamkone

Deaf student wrote: »

Heard a story from a guy, who went to the same boarding school as myself. He was much older than myself. I heard that he was knocked down by a motor cyclist near half penny bridge in Dublin many years ago. He sustained lot of physical damage to his body after motorbike incident. He went into coma as he required 3 or 4 surgeries to correct the damage near the hip and chest- few severe fractures here and there.

He went into coma for three weeks and half with no prospect of full recovery or otherwise. His late mother called to a priest during the night, who held Padre Pio's gloves in his possession. So that priest who came next following day and placed Padre Pio's glove, which had touched his brain and face/body etc.

Also he, that nameless priest also placed another relic of Padre Pio's under the guys's pillow overnight. He woke up the next morning much to the astonishment of his consultant/nurses and his own parents/family as well. They didn't expect to him to wake up after three weeks in coma and recover back to normal. He recovered back slowly after leaving hospital but he wasn't the same person as he used to be.

The big miracle was that he wasn't expected to live according to the medical doctor's/nurse's expectations(who dealt with his case) after the motorbike crash incident but he lives up to this day.

He admitted that he was quite emotional when he visited Padre Pio's tomb in Italy few years later after that motorbike incident. That was because he knew that Padre Pio saved his life when he was in coma.

Was it Pio's goalie gloves?

kneemos

As this article points out why did he procure the acid in secret if it was just for sterilising.

Fond of the women as well apparently.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/padre-pio-faked-his-stigmata-with-acid-397811.html

NIMAN

My aunt died at the age of 32 of cancer, leaving behind 3 kids under 7 years of age.

She got Padre Pio's mitt too, did no good.

I would question whether those who recover after touching supposed holy relics would have recovered anyway without them?

I never believed the PP story. I have no doubt he might have been a good man who did a lot of good deeds, but the stigmata? No, sorry.

micks_address

NIMAN wrote: »

My aunt died at the age of 32 of cancer, leaving behind 3 kids under 7 years of age.

She got Padre Pio's mitt too, did no good.

I would question whether those who recover after touching supposed holy relics would have recovered anyway without them?

Interesting movie i watched recently on a plane called 'Breakthrough'

Based on a true story of a kid in the US who fell through ice and was under for 20 minutes... was supposed to be dead... managed to make a full recovery.. drs' say no explanation apart from a miracle.. these things happen... but more often than not they don't so its not fair... why does one person recover and another doesn't? no way to explain it

stoneill

Zombie thread for a zombie saint

NIMAN

micks_address wrote: »

Interesting movie i watched recently on a plane called 'Breakthrough'

Based on a true story of a kid in the US who fell through ice and was under for 20 minutes... was supposed to be dead... managed to make a full recovery.. drs' say no explanation apart from a miracle.. these things happen... but more often than not they don't so its not fair... why does one person recover and another doesn't? no way to explain it

But there is science in that story. And for the doctor to say no explanation is erroneous, if he is a qualified doctor he should have been able to explain what could have happened his body.

If the body goes into very cold water, it can almost go into shutdown mode, and the extreme cold can cause 'freezing' in a form, which can then allow the person to come back to full health.

There are plenty of stories like this one. To call them miracles is a misnomer.

There's one on Netflix about a deep sea diver whose oxygen line got snagged and he was without air for much longer than is normally humanly possible. But he survived.

Depends which angle you are looking at it from, some will say it's amazing what the human body can do, others will insist it's a miracle. I don't believe in miracles so I'll always go with option 1.

micks_address

NIMAN wrote: »

But there is science in that story. And for the doctor to say no explanation is erroneous, if he is a qualified doctor he should have been able to explain what could have happened his body.

If the body goes into very cold water, it can almost go into shutdown mode, and the extreme cold can cause 'freezing' in a form, which can then allow the person to come back to full health.

There are plenty of stories like this one. To call them miracles is a misnomer.

There's one on Netflix about a deep sea diver whose oxygen line got snagged and he was without air for much longer than is normally humanly possible. But he survived.

Depends which angle you are looking at it from, some will say it's amazing what the human body can do, others will insist it's a miracle. I don't believe in miracles so I'll always go with option 1.

yep there's science there but it doesnt always work.. i don't know what i believe in to be honest

Thinkingaboutit

The Professor appears to have re-heated ancient claims espoused by some of the enemies within and outside the Church many, many decades ago. Padre Pio was investigated so many times.

indy_man

Padre Pio a great saint of the highest order and of the greatest suffering.

http://www.sanpadrepio.com/StigmataTruth.htm

branie2

I believe he had it

branie2

mathepac wrote: »

Well Holy God, a publication renowned for it's objectivity, fairness and accuracy, that has never ever published an article, a photograph or other information obtained by illegal or morally questionable means, a paper that stops just short of printing "ja no wot i mean, innit, lol (smiley face)!!!?!" at the end of each phrase (they don't seem to understand sentences and paragraphs). Having exhausted their repertoire of xenophobic and homophobic utterances, they have now taken to printing articles they don't understand about people they never heard of.

My real opinion of the Sun? Marvellous paper for packing crockery for house moves.

It's good for wrapping chips as well

Donnielighto

Meh, might have had bleeding hand but whatever the reason God wasnt coming down mailing them each night while he slept.

Fraud or mystery but not miracle.