Incorrect post deletion

slowburner

I have neither been banned nor infracted but a post of mine has been deleted.

I have spoken with the relevant mod by PM and he has stated that he is not prepared to change his decision.

He is no longer prepared to discuss the situation by PM.

slowburner,

I've already stated my position in regards to the posting and as stated am more than happy to have this reviewed by a Cmod, however, I am equally happy that the post was correctly deleted.

Constant PM's to me will not change my mind on this and I am therefore copying in a Cmod on your behalf.

Should I begin the dispute resolution process here now, or should I wait for the opinion of a cMod?

All PMs sent by me to the forum mod were cc'd to the cMods but I have not heard from them as yet.

Many Thanks.

Spear

slowburner wrote: »

I have neither been banned nor infracted but a post of mine has been deleted.

In which case it doesn't come under the DRP, so it's moved to the Helpdesk which does cover more general issues.

slowburner

Thanks,
Where do I go from here?

Spear

slowburner wrote: »

Thanks,
Where do I go from here?

It'll be addressed here, though you may wish to notify any appropriate mods/cmods to ensure they're aware.

slowburner

Spear wrote: »

It'll be addressed here, though you may wish to notify any appropriate mods/cmods to ensure they're aware.

Will do.

slowburner

I have sent the relevant mod a pm informing him of this thread.

beer enigma

slowburner wrote: »

I have sent the relevant mod a pm informing him of this thread.

I'm more than happy for anyone to look at and advise on the thread - it started with a post praising 'bailiffs' direct their good work - slowburner took offence at fisheries officers being called bailiffs even though a bailiff is a respected title in the UK and France - the OP meant no disrespect

Slowburners response started with praise for OPs post then slammed him for disrespect - comment was unnecessarily hard to a new angler & off topic

Working hard to get new anglers on the angling site & a pm like that could deter them from posting again

I told slowburner I stood over my decision & he told me he was referring to Cmod to which I was ok about & told him I'd respect Cmod decision

He pmd 3 or 4 times more questioning moderation of board & I simply told him I stood by my decision & included sparks in my reply and that I'd go with any Cmod decision

Slowburner is a decent poster & nothing against him but he unnecessarily slammed the OP and then went off in a tangent quoting 'bad moderation' on other topics

I felt his post didn't add to the OPs post, in fact deterred from it, almost to a degree of flaming - I deleted it, pmd slowburner to explain immediately and didn't infraction or ban - I stand by my decision guys

Andi

slowburner

I deleted my previous post because it was too long. I hope what follows is more acceptable.

An inland fisheries protection officer is an employee of the state charged with enforcement of various fisheries protection acts which have been passed to protect all fish in inland and coastal waters.
Briefly, their duties include sea patrols to prosecute and seize illegal nets, monitoring and prosecution of pollution of watercourses and prosecution of offenders engaged in illegal fishing.

It is probably one of the most dangerous jobs carried out anywhere in the state sector. Fisheries officers often find themselves in remote areas without any form of support - unlike other enforcement agencies. Violence towards fisheries officers is common, indeed four colleague officers died as a direct result of carrying out their duties in 1990.
http://debates.oireachtas.ie/dail/1992/02/26/00038.asp

All I ask is that the use of the word bailiff should not be allowed in the angling forum to refer to fisheries officers and that as matter of respect, posters who use the term, should be reminded that it is grossly insulting to fisheries officers.

Andip might be unaware of how loaded the term is in Ireland and I believe that some posters in the forum may be using this lack of awareness to pull the wool over his eyes, knowing that they can insult fisheries officers deliberately, publicly and with impunity.

It might well be a respected title in Britain and France, but in Ireland it has a vastly different connotation.
It is the negative cultural memory of the activities of bailiffs in forced evictions during the Great Famine of 1845 and after.
In the not too distant past, ownership of many important fisheries was closely associated with absentee landlords and enforcement of the ownership of those fisheries was carried out by the same bailiffs who carried out forced evictions.
In the more recent past, a deliberate insult to state fisheries officers has been the term 'Landlords men' which in context, is indistinguishable from the term 'bailiff'.

Today, many of these fisheries are now in state ownership and fisheries officers carry out their thankless, difficult and dangerous work for the people of Ireland - not for any landlord.
A small section of the angling public resent the fact that they must pay license fees - enforcement of the licensing laws are part of the duties of a fisheries officer and frequently, it is this minority who use the insulting term.

I was a fisheries officer for many years and to call me a former bailiff is to insult me - deliberately or innocently does not matter - I will still correct whoever says it.

It is no different and has the same degree of insult as calling a policeman a p*g.

slowburner

Andip wrote: »

I'm more than happy for anyone to look at and advise on the thread - it started with a post praising 'bailiffs' direct their good work - slowburner took offence at fisheries officers being called bailiffs even though a bailiff is a respected title in the UK and France - the OP meant no disrespect

Slowburners response started with praise for OPs post then slammed him for disrespect - comment was unnecessarily hard to a new angler & off topic

Working hard to get new anglers on the angling site & a pm like that could deter them from posting again

I told slowburner I stood over my decision & he told me he was referring to Cmod to which I was ok about & told him I'd respect Cmod decision

He pmd 3 or 4 times more questioning moderation of board & I simply told him I stood by my decision & included sparks in my reply and that I'd go with any Cmod decision

Slowburner is a decent poster & nothing against him but he unnecessarily slammed the OP and then went off in a tangent quoting 'bad moderation' on other topics

I felt his post didn't add to the OPs post, in fact deterred from it, almost to a degree of flaming - I deleted it, pmd slowburner to explain immediately and didn't infraction or ban - I stand by my decision guys

Andi

I would be grateful for the opportunity to correct some misleading impressions given by the quote above.

This gives the impression that I questioned moderation publicly. I did not, any discussion of the standards of moderation was by pm only.

I questioned moderation of one other post only. The post advocated criminal damage and is still standing.
see here > http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=73458091&postcount=36

I never once used the phrase 'bad moderation'.
I used the phrase 'Strange standards indeed' to emphasise how one post advocating criminal damage can be left standing, while another post defining the differences between a fisheries officer and a bailiff, is deleted.

slowburner

A formal or stickied undertaking, that forum users are requested not to call fisheries officers, 'bailiffs' - would happily resolve the matter for me.





See here for the commonly perception of a bailiff.
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=bailiff

beer enigma

I get the impression that whatever I say wont be right.........:rolleyes:

Feel free to put up your revised post on the board - It's a general post & open to comment, so will be interesting to see other peoples views on it.

I have nothing against the sentiment of what you are saying, I just felt that the original post was directed harshly at the OP.

Can we now put this to bed ?

slowburner

Andip wrote: »

I get the impression that whatever I say wont be right.........:rolleyes:

Feel free to put up your revised post on the board - It's a general post & open to comment, so will be interesting to see other peoples views on it.

I have nothing against the sentiment of what you are saying, I just felt that the original post was directed harshly at the OP.

Can we now put this to bed ?

I don't think we can put this to bed until there is a clear commitment from the forum mods not to tolerate insults (deliberate or otherwise) to fisheries officers.
As I said, it is no different to calling policemen p*gs.
It might be more appropriate to see that commitment here, rather than on the forum.

Zzippy

Just to add my support to slowburner - as a current fishery officer I can confirm that "bailiff" is used as a derogatory term towards us, and due to its negative connotations in Ireland is mostly used by poachers etc to other people in order to ridicule our work and gain support, or deter co-operation with us.
The term bailiff has not been used officially for a very long time for just this reason.
I have mentioned it in the forum a few times before, and I would also appreciate this rule being introduced. If we want to attract new anglers posting on the forum, we should also encourage them to work with fishery officers, who need eyes on the ground and information to catch poachers, rather than perpetuating the "bailiff" stereotype.

beer enigma

slowburner wrote: »

Andip wrote: »

I get the impression that whatever I say wont be right.........:rolleyes:

Feel free to put up your revised post on the board - It's a general post & open to comment, so will be interesting to see other peoples views on it.

I have nothing against the sentiment of what you are saying, I just felt that the original post was directed harshly at the OP.

Can we now put this to bed ?

I don't think we can put this to bed until there is a clear commitment from the forum mods not to tolerate insults (deliberate or otherwise) to fisheries officers.
As I said, it is no different to calling policemen p*gs.
It might be more appropriate to see that commitment here, rather than on the forum.

Theres no point in giving commitments 'off board' as it shouldn't work like that - my reason for deletion was actually more about the tone used to the OP.

Start a thread & add your post as above and I'll post a commitment in reply if that solves it for you

slowburner

Andip wrote: »

Start a thread & add your post as above and I'll post a commitment in reply if that solves it for you

Thanks Andip.

slowburner

Andip wrote: »

Theres no point in giving commitments 'off board' as it shouldn't work like that - my reason for deletion was actually more about the tone used to the OP.

Start a thread & add your post as above and I'll post a commitment in reply if that solves it for you

I am sorry Andip, that you feel you should stand down as a mod over this issue.
Sincerely, that is not an outcome I would have hoped for, or welcome.
I have no issue with you as a mod or otherwise - but it is very much necessary to put an end to the persistent insults to fishery officers on the forum.

However, I do hope that you honour your commitment before you go.

Hopefully, ''the mindless posters (you know who you are)'', mentioned in the post below from your co-moderator, refers to posters who insult fishery officers by calling them bailiffs and not to the posters who brought the issue to light.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=75625498&postcount=8

slowburner

Andip wrote: »

Theres no point in giving commitments 'off board' as it shouldn't work like that - my reason for deletion was actually more about the tone used to the OP.

Start a thread & add your post as above and I'll post a commitment in reply if that solves it for you

I started a thread as requested above.
Here
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=75647088#post75647088

The moderator who agreed to settle the matter, stepped down.

The remaining moderator has closed the thread.
See here
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=75647088&postcount=14

Therefore, there has been no resolution of the situation.
I would be very grateful for the input or advice of a category mod or administrator as clearly the forum mods have managed to sidestep resolution.

rpmcmurphy

Hi guys,
I too, having worked as a fishery officer, find the use of the above term as insulting as it has negative connotations associated with it. If we need a similar comparison we need look no further than some of the negative slang words attributed to our police force or Gardai to give them their correct title. The term bailiff and indeed waterkeeper has through legislation been changed to fishery officer for these reasons. As angling is a sport that is striving to modernise itself in its methods and policies in terms of ethics and practice i think it is imperative that the current and correct reference be made to those that go to such lengths to promote, protect and develop our fisheries resource. Anyone who refers to a f/o as a bailiff (with rare exception through complete ignorance) do so in an inflammatory context. I would support a forum policy of referring to the employees of IFI by their correct title
I am in no way critical of the moderators in the angling forum and would like to commend them on carrying out what is at times a difficult and indeed thankless role
Tight lines
RPMCM

slowburner

This is an extract from the Angling forum charter here
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2054978633

Personal Abuse
- Posters who abuse others on here will be banned. Permanent bans will be handed out on a first offence if a moderator feels it is warranted. There is no argument on this one. Abuse someone and you will be banned. Calling someone an idiot is abuse.* Don't attack the poster, attack the post.
- Attacks on public figures should have be based on actions and without swear words.
'Joe Bloggs is a ******' for example is not a valid contribution. Similar posts will likely result in at least
an infraction, possibly a ban for the poster

*Calling a fishery officer a bailiff is abuse.

It is still actively tolerated, possibly even encouraged, in the angling forum.

Some advice from Boards.ie would be most welcome - is it time to move this to Dispute Resolution

slowburner

Please can we have a verdict, or at least some third party input on this issue?

slowburner

The silence is deafening.

bitemybanger

There IS no issue. Calling a Fishery officer a Bailliff is in no way, shape or form "abusive" and im sorry you feel this way. The Angling forum is a peaceful forum and is a pleasure to moderate and i stand by Andip in his decision.
there will be no sticky thread on the forum nor an amendment to the forum Charter on this issue.

slowburner

If any other group of people found a word used to describe them to be offensive there would be immediate action.

For example;
To call travellers, knackers, would be offensive;
to call black people, ****, would be offensive;
to call Gardaí, pigs, would be offensive;
to call fishery officers, bailiffs, is offensive.

If the first three insults would not be tolerated - why tolerate the fourth?

(Please excuse me for using these despicable, abusive terms but I have no other way of making the point.)

slowburner

bitemybanger wrote: »

There IS no issue. Calling a Fishery officer a Bailliff is in no way, shape or form "abusive" and im sorry you feel this way. The Angling forum is a peaceful forum and is a pleasure to moderate and i stand by Andip in his decision.
there will be no sticky thread on the forum nor an amendment to the forum Charter on this issue.

It is not a question of me 'feeling this way' - it is the law since 1939.
see here

Any other member of the fisheries protection service will take being called a bailiff to be an insult.
There are cases where the term is used innocently or out of ignorance - but in my experience, these are few and far between.

slowburner

This issue has clearly reached an impasse.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=75922005&postcount=23

Moderation of this forum is effectively an attempt to overturn legislation that has been in place for 72 years.

Where do we go from here to resolve the issue?

bitemybanger

slowburner wrote: »

If any other group of people found a word used to describe them to be offensive there would be immediate action.

For example;
To call travellers, knackers, would be offensive;
to call black people, ****, would be offensive;
to call Gardaí, pigs, would be offensive;
to call fishery officers, bailiffs, is offensive.

If the first three insults would not be tolerated - why tolerate the fourth?

(Please excuse me for using these despicable, abusive terms but I have no other way of making the point.)

I think you are mistaking a common misconception of a word or title with a blatant form of racisim or abuse.

beer enigma

slowburner wrote: »

This issue has clearly reached an impasse.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=75922005&postcount=23

Moderation of this forum is effectively an attempt to overturn legislation that has been in place for 72 years.

Where do we go from here to resolve the issue?

There's a misconception here -

I deleted the post as it was a negative comment - the forum record will show this as the comment I left.

Comments on the angling board have implied that anyone that uses the bailiff term is doing so deliberately - the fact that the OP did nothing but praise the work of fisheries officers shows this not to be the case.

The reply by slowburner slammed the OP - so much applauding the suggestion of a softly softly reply as suggested on the recent thread.

There were two things wrong with the reply to the OP

1) the comment was directed personally at the OP - this is a breach of boards rules - you can comment on a post, but not directly at another poster. Many a poster has been banned or infracted for this, but I didn't do either.

2) the post slammed the OP - this could detract a poster from posting again.

The sad thing is that the aggressive attitude adopted on recent posts has driven the two sides further apart. There are some who couldn't give a fiddlers what terminology is used, such as the OP on the original thread. However, the hackles have now been brought up and I feel we will never achieve a democratic status quo on the subject.

Just for the record, I think the suggestion of a light reminder to anyone using any term that someone finds unpleasant is the perfect solution. I don't think it should be written into the rules though or you'd be duty bound to ban anyone using it & this would include the OP who was in fact just writing to praise their work.

Also for the record, I fully support the work done by any Fisheries Officer and only wish there were resources to to increase numbers and give them stronger powers.

Finally, from the minute I withdrew as a mod on angling, I could not comment on the post as it would undermine the other mods position.

Being a mod is a lot more than just deleting spam and up until recently I've always enjoyed a modicum of respect in all of my 11 years on Boards.

If you hold out for a ban on the the term bailiff this will never by resolved, but if everyone is agreeable to 'suggesting' the term is not used when used innocently then we can move on. Any poster that used the term as a deliberate insult will get a ban anyway & again just for this ever increasing record, I have actually banned one user about 8 months back for doing exactly that.

I stand by the reason for deleting the post on grounds 1 & 2 above, but please don't confuse this with the bailiff issue.

slowburner

bitemybanger wrote: »

I think you are mistaking a common misconception of a word or title with a blatant form of racisim or abuse.

There is no mistake.
Calling a fisheries officer a bailiff is a term of abuse.
How many times do I have to repeat this before you understand?

slowburner

There is no sense in making references to a post which has disappeared into the electronic ether.
I can argue from memory, Andip can argue from memory: but that would be subject to interpretation and misinterpretation and therefore untrustworthy - that is, assuming we want to be truthful and honest in this matter.
I most certainly did not attack the op personally.
I addressed the terminology used. I applauded the sentiment of what the op was saying about fisheries officers.
I agree that my reaction was harsh but it was justified in an attempt to end the enduring history of insults to fisheries officers in the angling forum.

It is very good to know that a poster has been banned for using the term bailiff as a deliberate insult.
However, there are many existing examples of posters using the term in a less blatant way, or as snide comments.
These have either genuinely slipped under the mods' radar or are deliberately tolerated.

For example:

Where I'm from being a bailiff is barely a step above a child molester

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=73977056&postcount=36

Bailiffs are annoying *****. I have no respect for them. They will never go after people setting nets at night or targeting poachers. they sit on their ass eating donuts all day then go around harassing people on fisheries when they have tickets.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=73515316&postcount=25


Furthermore, there have been many attempts by myself and others to 'gently remind' posters not to use the word bailiff.
See here
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=61239099&postcount=2
or Andip's own post here
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=73697257&postcount=54

These efforts have either fallen on deaf ears or been ridiculed
see here
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=73770071&postcount=25


I have attempted to address the matter twice by starting threads in the angling forum. Both have been locked.
The reason given for locking the first thread was

it's starting to upset people

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=75647088&postcount=14

Fisheries officers are clearly upset by the persistent insults and yet there is no locking of those threads.
If it is clear that fisheries officers are being 'upset': will those threads be locked?
Somehow, I doubt it.

I have been shot at, assaulted, threatened, had strokehauls removed from various parts of my body, I've done things and suffered things that you just would not believe, and I have been called much worse than a bailiff over the course of my career in fisheries protection. There are still many places where I simply cannot live. There are places where I cannot even bring my family - all as a result of doing my job.

It is just depressing to see an extension of that sort of carry on in a forum dedicated to angling.

beer enigma

Fine - I've stood down from 11 years of boards in angling

I've offered An olive leaf

Run the board as you wish - I'm calling on Cmod to call this as I'm appalled at the disrespect shown - if it's not your way then it no way.

You agree on board to accept a soft response and yet attack again and again

I'm totally fed up and hacked off with your total lack or 'give' on this and to be honest am now leaving it up to the Cmod

You slammed the OP which most mods would have infracted - you commented directly against him which classes as a direct comment - straight ban

I did neither

I even PM'd u direct to solve and u still come back

I'm not commenting further and will let a Cmod decide

My 8 year old is going in for a major op next week - I have better things to worry about

I'm working to get funding for more fisheries officers - this just hacks me off

If its not your way then it's no way - the OP was praising & you have turned this into a negative - I'm calling on Cmod for a decision to end this as the angling board has suffered more damage thanks to your post than even seen

Sleep well on that

slowburner

Andip wrote: »

Fine - I've stood down from 11 years of boards in angling

I've offered An olive leaf

An olive leaf was offered on this forum and I accepted it and thanked you for it. I started the thread in response but it was locked without giving the commitment required.

Run the board as you wish - I'm calling on Cmod to call this as I'm appalled at the disrespect shown - if it's not your way then it no way.

It is not my way, it is simply the right way.

You agree on board to accept a soft response and yet attack again and again

I stated that it was not my job to remind posters and that this is the mod's place.

I'm totally fed up and hacked off with your total lack or 'give' on this and to be honest am now leaving it up to the Cmod

You give a commitment and then stand down before honouring the commitment. I try to start two threads to resolve the issue and both are promptly locked - I am not the one with the lack of give.

You slammed the OP which most mods would have infracted - you commented directly against him which classes as a direct comment - straight ban

I did neither

As I said in my previous post, there is no point in referring to a post which no longer exists.
I remember targeting the language the poster used and not the poster.

I even PM'd u direct to solve and u still come back

At no point in any of your three pms was there any offer of resolution.

I'm not commenting further and will let a Cmod decide

My 8 year old is going in for a major op next week - I have better things to worry about

I genuinely and sincerely hope that all goes well for your son and your family. I know only too well what it is like.

I'm working to get funding for more fisheries officers - this just hacks me off

If its not your way then it's no way - the OP was praising & you have turned this into a negative - I'm calling on Cmod for a decision to end this as the angling board has suffered more damage thanks to your post than even seen

Melodrama. I have posted several times in the angling forum since this process started and have even had contributions from those who have attacked me in the past without any problems.