Berlin get to see our Budget first ?

Biggins

Well as I said already, someone is going to get their knuckles 'rapped' over this issue.
I wonder whom they will find to use as a scape goat!

charlemont

Paparazzo wrote: »

Why all the Germany hate? We're the ones that made a complete bollocks of out country, not Germany.

And Ireland should be kicked out of the Euro and EU, Then see how long we would last on our own with muck savages and school teachers running the show.

Wertz

amacachi wrote: »

If we had any common sense over the last 20 year we would've voted yes to all of them and still been fine. Unfortunately we wanted more and more and more and voted appropriately.

You expect the masses to have common sense? ...and we did vote yes to all of them, mainly because no-one really understood what each step on the ladder to full integration meant. Oh it's good for business....the europeans are our friends, strength in numbers blah blah.
The place (not just Ireland) was flooded with cheap money from a strong group of lenders. There was no fiscal oversight in place first...not only was the cart put before the horse but the wheel was invented before the horse ever evolved.

Snowie

phasers wrote: »

This is all just a scam to get us all to shop in lidl and aldi.

It's Lidil's :rolleyes::pac:

amacachi

Wertz wrote: »

You expect the masses to have common sense? ...and we did vote yes to all of them, mainly because no-one really understood what each step on the ladder to full integration meant. Oh it's good for business....the europeans are our friends, strength in numbers blah blah.
The place not just Ireland) was flooded with cheap money from a strong group of lenders. There was no fiscal oversight in place first...not only was the cart put before the horse but the wheel was invented before the horse ever evolved.

Integration wasn't the issue, government fiscal policy was. They were repeatedly warned by Europe of a possible bubble and of overheating the economy and the warnings were ignored. Opposition parties here consistently criticised successive governments for not being generous enough in the huge giveaway budgets. Why are the masses in some countries not retards?

Lord Trollington

Biggins wrote: »

Someone is going to get a rap on the knuckles for this leaking out.

By rap on the knuckles I presume you man a promotion to a big Job in Europe?

Lord Trollington

amacachi wrote: »

Integration wasn't the issue, government fiscal policy was. They were repeatedly warned by Europe of a possible bubble and of overheating the economy and the warnings were ignored. Opposition parties here consistently criticised successive governments for not being generous enough in the huge giveaway budgets. Why are the masses in some countries not retards?

Possibly because they don't marry and have kids with their Cousins.

Morlar

amacachi wrote: »

Integration wasn't the issue, government fiscal policy was. They were repeatedly warned by Europe of a possible bubble and of overheating the economy and the warnings were ignored. Opposition parties here consistently criticised successive governments for not being generous enough in the huge giveaway budgets. Why are the masses in some countries not retards?

I don't agree with your rosey eyed Pro-Europe take on things. I'd say a large part of the blame lies in the ECB 'No Bank left behind' policy which meant the Irish Govt could not cut Anglo loose. Also in the behind closed doors handling of, and forcing of, the bailout upon Ireland 'Lenihan says ECB forced bail out'.

mariano rivera

"Ver are your papers, Irelander?"

Morlar

mariano rivera wrote: »

"Ver are your papers, Irelander?"

Schweinhund !!


Funf und Zwanzig Percent !!

Ve can do zis all day, Ja.

amacachi

Morlar wrote: »

I don't agree with your rosey eyed Pro-Europe take on things. I'd say a large part of the blame lies in the ECB 'No Bank left behind' policy which meant the Irish Govt could not cut Anglo loose. Also in the behind closed doors handling of, and forcing of, the bailout upon Ireland 'Lenihan says ECB forced bail out'.

Could've sworn that Lenihan went ahead with the guarantee without informing everyone he should have and that was more than a slight fcuk-up.

Morlar

amacachi wrote: »

Could've sworn that Lenihan went ahead with the guarantee without informing everyone he should have and that was more than a slight fcuk-up.

I'd recomend some light reading :

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2011/0507/1224296372123.html

While most people would trace our ruin to to the bank guarantee of September 2008, the real error was in sticking with the guarantee long after it had become clear that the bank losses were insupportable. Brian Lenihan’s original decision to guarantee most of the bonds of Irish banks was a mistake, but a mistake so obvious and so ridiculous that it could easily have been reversed. The ideal time to have reversed the bank guarantee was a few months later when Patrick Honohan was appointed governor of the Central Bank and assumed de facto control of Irish economic policy.

As a respected academic expert on banking crises, Honohan commanded the international authority to have announced that the guarantee had been made in haste and with poor information, and would be replaced by a restructuring where bonds in the banks would be swapped for shares.

Instead, Honohan seemed unperturbed by the possible scale of bank losses, repeatedly insisting that they were “manageable”. Like most Irish economists of his generation, he appeared to believe that Ireland was still the export-driven powerhouse of the 1990s, rather than the credit-fuelled Ponzi scheme it had become since 2000; and the banking crisis no worse than the, largely manufactured, government budget crisis of the late 1980s.

Rising dismay at Honohan’s judgment crystallised into outright scepticism after an extraordinary interview with Bloomberg business news on May 28th last year. Having overseen the Central Bank’s “quite aggressive” stress tests of the Irish banks, he assured them that he would have “the two big banks, fixed by the end of the year. I think it’s quite good news The banks are floating away from dependence on the State and will be free standing”.

Honohan’s miscalculation of the bank losses has turned out to be the costliest mistake ever made by an Irish person. Armed with Honohan’s assurances that the bank losses were manageable, the Irish government confidently rode into the Little Bighorn and repaid the bank bondholders, even those who had not been guaranteed under the original scheme. This suicidal policy culminated in the repayment of most of the outstanding bonds last September.

Disaster followed within weeks. Nobody would lend to Irish banks, so that the maturing bonds were repaid largely by emergency borrowing from the European Central Bank: by November the Irish banks already owed more than €60 billion. Despite aggressive cuts in government spending, the certainty that bank losses would far exceed Honohan’s estimates led financial markets to stop lending to Ireland.

On November 16th, European finance ministers urged Lenihan to accept a bailout to stop the panic spreading to Spain and Portugal, but he refused, arguing that the Irish government was funded until the following summer. Although attacked by the Irish media for this seemingly delusional behaviour, Lenihan, for once, was doing precisely the right thing. Behind Lenihan’s refusal lay the thinly veiled threat that, unless given suitably generous terms, Ireland could hold happily its breath for long enough that Spain and Portugal, who needed to borrow every month, would drown.

At this stage, with Lenihan looking set to exploit his strong negotiating position to seek a bailout of the banks only, Honohan intervened. As well as being Ireland’s chief economic adviser, he also plays for the opposing team as a member of the council of the European Central Bank, whose decisions he is bound to carry out. In Frankfurt for the monthly meeting of the ECB on November 18th, Honohan announced on RTÉ Radio 1’s Morning Ireland that Ireland would need a bailout of “tens of billions”.

Rarely has a finance minister been so deftly sliced off at the ankles by his central bank governor. And so the Honohan Doctrine that bank losses could and should be repaid by Irish taxpayers ran its predictable course with the financial collapse and international bailout of the Irish State.

Ireland’s Last Stand began less shambolically than you might expect. The IMF, which believes that lenders should pay for their stupidity before it has to reach into its pocket, presented the Irish with a plan to haircut €30 billion of unguaranteed bonds by two-thirds on average. Lenihan was overjoyed, according to a source who was there, telling the IMF team: “You are Ireland’s salvation.”

The deal was torpedoed from an unexpected direction. At a conference call with the G7 finance ministers, the haircut was vetoed by US treasury secretary Timothy Geithner who, as his payment of $13 billion from government-owned AIG to Goldman Sachs showed, believes that bankers take priority over taxpayers. The only one to speak up for the Irish was UK chancellor George Osborne, but Geithner, as always, got his way. An instructive, if painful, lesson in the extent of US soft power, and in who our friends really are.

The negotiations went downhill from there. On one side was the European Central Bank, unabashedly representing Ireland’s creditors and insisting on full repayment of bank bonds. On the other was the IMF, arguing that Irish taxpayers would be doing well to balance their government’s books, let alone repay the losses of private banks. And the Irish? On the side of the ECB, naturally.

In the circumstances, the ECB walked away with everything it wanted. The IMF were scathing of the Irish performance, with one staffer describing the eagerness of some Irish negotiators to side with the ECB as displaying strong elements of Stockholm Syndrome.

Wertz

mariano rivera wrote: »

"Ver are your papers, Irelander?"

In my wheelbarrow of course Hans...I'm just off out for a loaf of bread.

ejmaztec

We should ask the Germans if we can borrow Nuremberg for some trials. We can provide the suspects and the rope.

Morlar

ejmaztec wrote: »

We should ask the Germans if we can borrow Nuremberg for some trials. We can provide the suspects and the rope.

Reckon we have plenty of spare lamposts as it is.:D

ejmaztec

Morlar wrote: »

Reckon we have plenty of spare lamposts as it is.:D

I'm looking forward to the day that we go all Mussolini on the bastards.:mad:

amacachi

Morlar wrote: »

I'd recomend some light reading :

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2011/0507/1224296372123.html

Odd, that doesn't argue against what I said in the post you quoted.

It does go against what I said about the IMF being the harsher of those providing the bailout but SE Asia and Argentina's example don't really show the IMF being happy to allow banks etc. to pay for their mistakes.

Morlar

amacachi wrote: »

Odd, that doesn't argue against what I said in the post you quoted.

It does fill in some of the parts you left out though doesn't it ?

amacachi

Morlar wrote: »

It does fill in some of the parts you left out though doesn't it ?

It doesn't even mention what I had for breakfast on the 27th of October 2009 ffs.

The main point I'm making is that any kind of fiscal discipline since 2000 or heeding warnings from Europe would have left us without the massive deficit. Apart from the policies feeding the bubble and hence the bank fcuk-up, if we didn't have the huge deficit we have then we wouldn't need to give two fcuks about the banks.

Morlar

amacachi wrote: »

It doesn't even mention what I had for breakfast on the 27th of October 2009 ffs.

The main point I'm making is that any kind of fiscal discipline since 2000 or heeding warnings from Europe would have left us without the massive deficit. Apart from the policies feeding the bubble and hence the bank fcuk-up, if we didn't have the huge deficit we have then we wouldn't need to give two fcuks about the banks.

Yes I get what you are saying, you are not assigning any portion of responsibility for any of the financial catastrophe to Europe, either in the form of the EU or the ECB. You place the entire blame for it on Ireland.

You are wrong on that.

The EU No Bank Behind policy the entire systematic approach of the ECB to the Irish position would indicate otherwise.

amacachi

Morlar wrote: »

Yes I get what you are saying, you are not assigning any portion of responsibility for any of the financial catastrophe to Europe, either in the form of the EU or the ECB. You place the entire blame for it on Ireland.

You are wrong on that.

The EU No Bank Behind policy the entire systematic approach of the ECB to the Irish position would indicate otherwise.

RTE had a documentary a coupla months ago where various people said Lenihan went straight ahead and did the bank guarantee without warning everyone. I'm against the idea of bailing out banks and everything else. The simple fact remains we doubly left ourselves up **** creek and had a choice between toeing the European line or defaulting. Unless you think the fiscal deficit is also down to Europe.

European states are going to try to look after themselves and the ECB is going to try to look after the currency. Having no comeback or bargaining chips is our fault.

Morlar

amacachi wrote: »

...European states are going to try to look after themselves and the ECB is going to try to look after the currency. Having no comeback or bargaining chips is our fault.

I don't accept your central assertion that Europe in the form of the EU or ECB are entirely blameless in this.

The idea behind the 'no bank left behind' may have been in the best interests of central europe, however as anglo was not a deposit bank, it was a toxic business to business one it should have been allowed fall, despite ecb fears of a domino effect. Ireland should not have been arm twisted into carrying that. That in itself is a big part of our original problem which snowballed, add to that the ECB approach to Ireland as referenced above it would not be reasonable to simply say (which is in effect what you have been saying ) - 'It's the fault of Ireland, Europe/Eu/Ecb are entirely blameless. It's all down to Irish mistakes. '

Eureopean/eu/ecb Policies and directives and their approach to Ireland are also largely responsible. Their policies may have been benefial for the EU banking system taken as a whole (and the Euro) however they were specifically at our enormous expense so it is simply not factually incorrect to try to apportion all of the blame on the Irish side alone. imo.

pragmatic1

Fcuking embarrassing.

amacachi

Morlar wrote: »

I don't accept your central assertion that Europe in the form of the EU or ECB are entirely blameless in this.

The idea behind the 'no bank left behind' may have been in the best interests of central europe, however as anglo was not a deposit bank, it was a toxic business to business one it should have been allowed fall, despite ecb fears of a domino effect. Ireland should not have been arm twisted into carrying that. That in itself is a big part of our original problem which snowballed, add to that the ECB approach to Ireland as referenced above it would not be reasonable to simply say (which is in effect what you have been saying ) - 'It's the fault of Ireland, Europe/Eu/Ecb are entirely blameless. It's all down to Irish mistakes. '

Eureopean/eu/ecb Policies and directives and their approach to Ireland are also largely responsible. Their policies may have been benefial for the EU banking system taken as a whole (and the Euro) however they were specifically at our enormous expense so it is simply not factually incorrect to try to apportion all of the blame on the Irish side alone. imo.

Did you read my previous post at all? Sweet Jesus. It says pretty much what you just said except that I reckon it's our fault for having no comeback. Any responsible fiscal policy (even way before the bank guarantee) and we could've done whatever we wanted with Anglo. Because of successive ridiculous budgets (against European warnings) we had a choice between correcting our spending (ZOMG imagine the horror!) or doing what they wanted. The ECB don't give a flying fcuk about you or me and I wouldn't expect them to. They're there to look after one thing and it's entirely our fault that we had no other option.

Morlar

amacachi wrote: »

Did you read my previous post at all? Sweet Jesus. It says pretty much what you just said except that I reckon it's our fault

Yeah 'Sweet Jesus' and all I read what you said. Except I just do not agree with it. Especially that 'Except' part in your post right there.

I'd say you've consistently washed european hands of any role in the responsibility for any of this which is something I just don't agree with. You can dress it up in new terms & try shifting it to something along the lines of . .. 'Well, you know, a responsible Irish govt would never have had their hands tied by the eu to begin with' . . . or you can try dress it up any way you want. It is simply incorrect to try to absolve europe of any role or responsibility in our financial situation for the reasons previously outlined. 'Except I reckon it was our fault' uh - no.

amacachi

Morlar wrote: »

Yeah 'Sweet Jesus' and all I read what you said. Except I just do not agree with it. Especially that 'Except' part in your post right there.

I'd say you've consistently washed european hands of any role in the responsibility for any of this which is something I just don't agree with. You can dress it up in new terms & try shifting it to something along the lines of . .. 'Well, you know, a responsible Irish govt would never have had their hands tied by the eu to begin with' . . . or you can try dress it up any way you want. It is simply incorrect to try to absolve europe of any role or responsibility in our financial situation for the reasons previously outlined. 'Except I reckon it was our fault' uh - no.

Europe did what it's meant to do and look after the interests of as much of the union as possible, Ireland failed miserably in looking after itself for well over a decade.

Wertz

it's the fault of both...us/our country that we borrowed/spent so much on a personal and governmental level... the EU/Germans by way of allowing the lending (encouraging?) to continue and the ECB failure to quell cheap money.
All that comes down to many different nations with different needs and demands and ways of working being brought under one umbrella currency without a budgetary oversight (and ireland not alone here in that being a problem)...integrated in one way but completely separate in others...that isn't our fault at all, but that of the EU.

amacachi

Wertz wrote: »

it's the fault of both...us/our country that we borrowed/spent so much on a personal and governmental level... the EU/Germans by way of allowing the lending (encouraging?) to continue and the ECB failure to quell cheap money.
All that comes down to many different nations with different needs and demands and ways of working being brought under one umbrella currency without a budgetary oversight (and ireland not alone here in that being a problem)...integrated in one way but completely separate in others...that isn't our fault at all, but that of the EU.

Trouble is that there were consistent warnings from Europe about what we were doing and they were all ignored. The Irish governments over the years chose to increase spending and cut marginal taxes while inflation was already well over 4%, that isn't Europe's fault. What were the opposition, Fine Gael, Labour, the left all saying? That it still wasn't spending enough.

spider guardian

Still not one solid reason given in this thread for why the Lisbon Treaty should have been rejected and how doing so would have stopped the budget being looked over by the Germans before budget day.

amacachi

spider guardian wrote: »

Still not one solid reason given in this thread for why the Lisbon Treaty should have been rejected and how doing so would have stopped the budget being looked over by the Germans before budget day.

Lizards, duh.

gandalf

I have to laugh at Fianna Fáil’s Michael McGrath in original article querying this at all given it was his parties actions that put us in this position in the first place.

If this was shared in confidence with someone in the German Government who leaked it to members of their Parliament it shows extreme disrespect to the Irish Government and the people of this country.

It doesn't surprise me that we have to share this information given we are relying on Europe (Germany) to fund our country at the moment.

Dublin_Gunner

Maybe we should implement it on the German populous first - just to see how well it fares. Then they can come back and give their opinions.

Sobanek

I have a feeling that this country will get some riots... Really soon...
Oh wait, people are too fcuking lazy :pac:

Killer Pigeon

Personally, I would have thought that a reduction in VAT by 2% (say ~19%) would have actually increased tax revenue because people would be more willing to go out and buy stuff. People will be even more tight on what they spend now and they will try to avoid non-essential products, thereby reducing the estimated revenue by a couple of million (that's if they haven't already factored that into their estimations).

jester77

Dublin_Gunner wrote: »

Maybe we should implement it on the German populous first - just to see how well it fares. Then they can come back and give their opinions.

People in Germany already pay property tax, already pay water rates, pay high carbon taxes, someone on the average wage in Germany will pay more than €400 a month in taxes compared to someone on the same salary in Ireland, people on low salaries pay their fair share of tax, people > 12 months unemployed have to use up all their assets before getting €400 a month unemployment money and they then have to prove they are looking for work and not turning down jobs or they will get nothing. People in Ireland need to get a grip on reality :rolleyes:

sensibleken

spider guardian wrote: »

Still not one solid reason given in this thread for why the Lisbon Treaty should have been rejected and how doing so would have stopped the budget being looked over by the Germans before budget day.

I wouldnt bother. Those who opposed lisbon seemed to have done so because they see it as another step on th road to full integration and handing over more power to europe. Despite not being able to name what those powers actually were and the fact that it gave national parliaments and the european parliament more powers.

Its just easier to blame it on the most recent thing that happened rather than the actual cause. ffs i remember people complaining about lisbon when cowen droppe the minimum wage.

WakeUp

I don't see how people are surprised with this Ze Germans are taking over they say jump we say how high, twice they attempted to do it by force which was resisted. This time they are doing it by stealth, economics and globalism. With Ze Germans running Europe and the British Royal Family ( German Dynasty ) still in control of large parts of the world its not hard to see how far they are along in the process. And this is just the start of it. When the Lisbon treaty comes into force in 2014 Ze Germans will have control over parts of our daily lives and powers that truly will freak people out its coming. Some posters are suggesting eventually Irish people will riot or resist. Ain't going to happen welcome to the brave new world one we were all warned about or 4th Reich as is your want.:)

sensibleken

WakeUp wrote: »

I don't see how people are surprised with this Ze Germans are taking over they say jump we say how high, twice they attempted to do it by force which was resisted. This time they are doing it by stealth, economics and globalism. With Ze Germans running Europe and the British Royal Family ( German Dynasty ) still in control of large parts of the world its not hard to see how far they are along in the process. And this is just the start of it. When the Lisbon treaty comes into force in 2014 Ze Germans will have control over parts of our daily lives and powers that truly will freak people out its coming. Some posters are suggesting eventually Irish people will riot or resist. Ain't going to happen welcome to the brave new world one we were all warned about or 4th Reich as is your want.:)

The royal family dont control what they have for breakfast. The treay entered into force in 2009 and there is nothing in it where the germans can contol your life.

unless its through the fillings in your teeth and chemtrails

zyndacyclone

Glad that Berlin gets to see the budget first...I don't trust a single Irish politician to come up with a halfway decent or honest one.

Compare Germany's economy to ours.

Great idea.

WakeUp

sensibleken wrote: »

The royal family dont control what they have for breakfast. The treay entered into force in 2009 and there is nothing in it where the germans can contol your life.

The Royal family would have you believe that but contrary to what many people claim they have influence over the decision making process to believe otherwise is silly, imo. The amendments we voted for in Lisbon 2 come into force in 2014 including the changing of the voting system favouring countries with a larger a population and the scaling down of ministers on a basis of rotation which means Ireland might find itself at some stage or will at some stage have no representation on our behalf. These changes particularly on the voting system favour the larger countries i.e Germany and Britain. The amendments also give them powers in decision making that they didn't have before for example social and cultural issues. Anyone who actually read the proposed treaty before voting would know this instead of being bullied and scared into doing so which is what happened, imo.

unless its through the fillings in your teeth and chemtrails

Shouldnt even reply to that as your talking through your hole, no offence intended, but just wanted to point that out to you:)

Biggins

It seems Germany did not just get details of our budget by the way - 27 other countries got the details too according to the Journal.ie (here)

The Irish people and those representatives we elected to the Dail, are its seems, the last to know - correction - STILL to know!

Grassroots_FF

zyndacyclone wrote: »

Glad that Berlin gets to see the budget first...I don't trust a single Irish politician to come up with a halfway decent or honest one.

Compare Germany's economy to ours.

Great idea.

You're an idiot if you think Germans are going to run Irish affairs in the interests of Irish people. All the Germans care about is bondholders and the troika being paid back in full. They'll happily run Ireland into the ground.

sensibleken

WakeUp wrote: »

The Royal family would have you believe that but contrary to what many people claim they have influence over the decision making process to believe otherwise is silly, imo. The amendments we voted for in Lisbon 2 come into force in 2014 including the changing of the voting system favouring countries with a larger a population and the scaling down of ministers on a basis of rotation which means Ireland might find itself at some stage or will at some stage have no representation on our behalf. These changes particularly on the voting system favour the larger countries i.e Germany and Britain. The amendments also give them powers in decision making that they didn't have before for example social and cultural issues. Anyone who actually read the proposed treaty before voting would know this instead of being bullied and scared into doing so which is what happened, imo.

Whats social and cultural issues? The new competencies that were handed over were minor, nowhere near the hype surrounding them.

by amendments do you mean the garuntees, the ones which were never in the treaty in the first place, or do you mean the one about not losing a commisioner, the one that wont change at all?

when will irland have no representation? on the commision? the non-representative body? please.

youve also signifficantly overlooked increased parliamentary powers, national oversight and subsidiarity. not to mention the QMV youre talking about is in the council only.

half truths at best

Dublin_Gunner

jester77 wrote: »

People in Germany already pay property tax, already pay water rates, pay high carbon taxes, someone on the average wage in Germany will pay more than €400 a month in taxes compared to someone on the same salary in Ireland, people on low salaries pay their fair share of tax, people > 12 months unemployed have to use up all their assets before getting €400 a month unemployment money and they then have to prove they are looking for work and not turning down jobs or they will get nothing. People in Ireland need to get a grip on reality :rolleyes:

Or maybe you should consider the 2 competely opposing economies.

We are in recession, there are a lot less jobs. Germany currently aren't in that state. To try to impose similar rules on both is doomed to failure. Glad you though your reply through.

I don't have a particularly high salary (around the average according to CSO), and I pay well over 400 in tax per month.

Celly Smunt

expect a new toll like the england to wales one (or the other way around?) when entering Ireland From the north next year.

Biggins

Want to see/read details of the leaked documents?

Here you go: http://www.thejournal.ie/revealed-governments-leaked-plans-for-irelands-austerity-budgets-282556-Nov2011/

ejmaztec

Goodbye shops, hallo soup-kitchens and one-way travel tickets.

jester77

Dublin_Gunner wrote: »

Or maybe you should consider the 2 competely opposing economies.

We are in recession, there are a lot less jobs. Germany currently aren't in that state. To try to impose similar rules on both is doomed to failure. Glad you though your reply through.

I don't have a particularly high salary (around the average according to CSO), and I pay well over 400 in tax per month.

When I first moved here Germany was in recession with high unemployment and Ireland was flying. The Germans have always been frugal and now that Germany has worked its way out of recession they are not going on a big spending spree. Neither the government or the citizens will spend money they don't have.

And I wasn't talking about 400 tax in total, I was saying 400 tax per month more than an Irish person. e.g.
Someone on a monthly gross salary of 3,750
Irish person take home pay: 2,728 (calculated here)
German person take home pay: 2,241 (calculated here)

Biggins

2013 Budget reads according to the above documents as :

* Tax

* Tax

* Tax

* Just for measure, more tax!

* And if your sick of hearing "Tax" - they are changing their words to "Levy" instead, regarding other items!

And...

* Cuts

* Cuts

* Cuts

Celly Smunt

Ireland will be a ghetto in two years.