Berlin get to see our Budget first ?

Grassroots_FF

It's about time the Germans were made to pay WW2 compensation in full

Biggins

Grassroots_FF wrote: »

It's about time the Germans were made to pay WW2 compensation in full

Are you for real?
We can't even get our criminals here in Ireland to cough up - and that includes the religious orders.

Chucky the tree

Biggins wrote: »

2013 Budget reads according to the above documents as :

* Tax

* Tax

* Tax

* Just for measure, more tax!

* And if your sick of hearing "Tax" - they are changing their words to "Levy" instead, regarding other items!

And...

* Cuts

* Cuts

* Cuts

What else should it read?

ejmaztec

pmcmahon wrote: »

Ireland will be a ghetto warzone in two years.

fyp

The government seem to be still under the assumption that we won't snap. It's going to be very interesting when the sh1t bubbling under the surface suddenly makes a break for it.

Celly Smunt

ejmaztec wrote: »

fyp

The government seem to be still under the assumption that we won't snap. It's going to be very interesting when the sh1t bubbling under the surface suddenly makes a break for it.

hopefully not Greek style however.

Grassroots_FF

Biggins wrote: »

Are you for real?
We can't even get our criminals here in Ireland to cough up - and that includes the religious orders.

No harm in pointing it out to the Krauts. They got all their WW2 debt written off and then got a massive stimulus package in West Germany. Yet the krauts think Irish people should pay off debts that aren't even ours.

Morlar

jester77 wrote: »

When I first moved here Germany was in recession with high unemployment and Ireland was flying. The Germans have always been frugal and now that Germany has worked its way out of recession they are not going on a big spending spree. Neither the government or the citizens will spend money they don't have.

And I wasn't talking about 400 tax in total, I was saying 400 tax per month more than an Irish person. e.g.
Someone on a monthly gross salary of 3,750
Irish person take home pay: 2,728 (calculated here)
German person take home pay: 2,241 (calculated here)

You are not comapring like for like, - for example you leave out :
Irish paye worker :

PAYE
PRSI
Pension
+
2% USC on x amount
4% USC on x amount
&
7% USC on x amount
etc.,
In addition to the various multiple indirect forms of blanket taxation. What is motor tax in Germany again ? Cost of an car etc ?

Biggins

Chucky the tree wrote: »

What else should it read?

* New ways to create more revenue? (Sometimes you actually have to spend more to make more!)
* New ways to bring further businesses to Ireland?
* New ways to get people to spend?
* New ways to get those responsible financially to pay-up?
* New ways to retain our youth base (which by loss, in effect is creating besides immediate problems, is also creating later problems) ?
* New ways to address the building industry in Ireland?
* New ways to address the pressure large commercial and SME's economic problems and revitalise them?
* New ways to re-start our tourist business?

...But what the hell would I know? I'm only supposed to be a dumb sheep and stay silent, accept their schite and be complacent!

Wertz

pmcmahon wrote: »

expect a new toll like the england to wales one (or the other way around?) when entering Ireland From the north next year.

I'll provide guided tours of the backroads of S Down/Armagh for a low one off fee.

Chucky the tree

Biggins wrote: »

* New ways to create more revenue? (Sometimes you actually have to spend more to make more!)
* New ways to bring further businesses to Ireland?
* New ways to get people to spend?
* New ways to get those responsible financially to pay-up?
* New ways to retain our youth base (which by loss, in effect is creating besides immediate problems, is also creating later problems) ?
* New ways to address the building industry in Ireland?
* New ways to address the pressure large commercial and SME's economic problems and revitalise them?
* New ways to re-start our tourist business?

...But what the hell would I know? I'm only supposed to be a dumb sheep and stay silent, accept their schite and be complacent!

And you know they haven't looked into this? Have you emailed anyone in Government about all the ideas you have to get people to spend, retain ou youth, further businesses to ireland, address the building industry etc etc? Anyone can come up with wish-washy ideas of how to make things better, however coming up with actual concrete solid ideas is a completely different matter.

jester77

Morlar wrote: »

You are not comapring like for like, - for example you leave out :
Irish paye worker :

PAYE
PRSI
Pension
+
2% USC on x amount
4% USC on x amount
&
7% USC on x amount
etc.,
In addition to the various multiple indirect forms of blanket taxation. What is motor tax in Germany again ? Cost of an car etc ?

The calculator for the Irish taxes that I use groups some of the taxes:
Income Levy/USC: 206
PRSI/Health: 128
Net Tax: 688

German
Pension: 348.25
Unemployment: 52.50
Care: 42.88
Health: 287.00
Income: 615.41
Solidarity: 33.84

I've no idea what motor tax or car insurance is. Never owned a car here, all I can tell you about running a car is that petrol is around €1.60 a litre.

Elmer Blooker

It's tragic to think that Father Fehily didn't live to see this!

Biggins

Chucky the tree wrote: »

And you know they haven't looked into this? Have you emailed anyone in Government about all the ideas you have to get people to spend, retain our youth, further businesses to ireland, address the building industry etc etc?

Have you?

...But in answer to your question to me... yes, I constantly asking/annoying them for answers.
What is usually given to me is the same as they give to the public.
PR spin, words of ever intent "Tomorrow... tomorrow..." the brush off and sometimes outright lies.
...O' and lest not forget about u-turns - they are good at u-turns! See: http://unitedpeople.ie/state.html
(MY site for the record)

Chucky the tree wrote: »

...Anyone can come up with wish-washy ideas of how to make things better, however coming up with actual concrete solid ideas is a completely different matter.

...And so far the many on pay-roll 'advisor's' (with their massive wages and pensions) to the state have come up with what?

---

Have you emailed anyone in Government about all the ideas you might have to get people to spend, retain our youth, further businesses to ireland, address the building industry etc etc?

Morlar

I am starting to think all this posting on boards, complaining about this tax or that tax, this charge or that levy is a waste of effort.

I think we should just complain directly to our Bundestag representative.

Chucky the tree

Biggins wrote: »

Have you?

...But in answer to your question to me... yes, I constantly asking/annoying them for answers.
What is usually given to me is the same as they give to the public.
PR spin, words of ever intent "Tomorrow... tomorrow..." the brush off and sometimes outright lies.
...O' and lest not forget about u-turns - they are good at u-turns! See: http://unitedpeople.ie/state.html
(MY site for the record)


...And so far the many on pay-roll 'advisor's' (with their massive wages and pensions) to the state have come up with what?

---

Have you emailed anyone in Government about all the ideas you might have to get people to spend, retain our youth, further businesses to ireland, address the building industry etc etc?

I can't think any of ways the Government can do all of those things, that's the problem. I could just lie and go on about made up solutions and made up numbers it's of no benfitet. People seem to what an easy fix solution when one doesn't exist. If there was a party who came up with good workable solutions they'd have no problems getting votes, however what we have is parties like Sinn Feinn, ULA coming up with dellsional unworkable crap while we have FG, Labour and FF going down the road of cuts and tax raises. FG and Labour are far from perfect but until such a time as some other party emerges they all the best of a bad bunch and their policy of taxes and cuts is the only realistic one.

MungBean

Morlar wrote: »

I am starting to think all this posting on boards, complaining about this tax or that tax, this charge or that levy is a waste of effort.

I think we should just complain directly to our Bundestag representative.

Nah, just change the site to Boards.de and they will think we are all Germans.

parrai

jester77 wrote: »

When I first moved here Germany was in recession with high unemployment and Ireland was flying. The Germans have always been frugal and now that Germany has worked its way out of recession they are not going on a big spending spree. Neither the government or the citizens will spend money they don't have.

And I wasn't talking about 400 tax in total, I was saying 400 tax per month more than an Irish person. e.g.
Someone on a monthly gross salary of 3,750
Irish person take home pay: 2,728 (calculated here)
German person take home pay: 2,241 (calculated here)

I agree with your points in principle, although you are not comparing like with like.

There, the cost of living is cheaper.

Ireland had money the option of 'cheap' money thrown at it, encouraged by the government to spend/borrow said money... 'Everything is great/why don't the whingers just kill themselves' (Bertie). So now the mountain of debt, Irish people have, is also has to be factored into the equation.

So now we have an expensive ecomony, with a serious debt personal/mortgage, serious austerity measures, increasing year on year.



We are effectively being screwed by our own past/present government... They are taking money from every possible avenue and effectively destroying all confidence in the economy. Even now, they are suggesting people 'spend their savings' to get the economy moving...

Germany are a huge economy in comparison to Ireland...And what they pay for works. It's extortionately expensive here, and now by putting up the vat to 23%, it will become even more expensive. People will be less likely to spend freely here (impulse buying for example) People will start going up north and spending their money there which will mean less money being spent in the local economy, having an effect on job creation/losses as well.

The government are increasing prices through indirect tax and taking away money that can be spent at the same time from people through a variety of other taxes... It is like they think everyone is on their wages of 80,000 plus! And this is just THIS years budget, ffs.

It just can't go on....

The European commission has said the issuing of the governments budget document to the German parliament before being published in Ireland was "...the sole responibility of the authorities" in Germany.

http://www.rte.ie/aertel/104-02.html

That is just a slap in the face to Ireland, and what can we do about it? **** all.

Biggins

Chucky the tree wrote: »

I can't think any of ways the Government can do all of those things, that's the problem. I could just lie and go on about made up solutions and made up numbers it's of no benfitet. People seem to what an easy fix solution when one doesn't exist. If there was a party who came up with good workable solutions they'd have no problems getting votes, however what we have is parties like Sinn Feinn, ULA coming up with dellsional unworkable crap while we have FG, Labour and FF going down the road of cuts and tax raises. FG and Labour are far from perfect but until such a time as some other party emerges they all the best of a bad bunch and their policy of taxes and cuts is the only realistic one.

Well thats an opinion - one your very entitled to have.
As for the creation of ideas, so far we have (in my opinion) see the re-spinning of old ideas under a different name and disguised (but similar) method of operation.
(Dumping FAS - with good apparent reason, its replacement? - and their coming up with their new "slave labour on the cheap" indicatives being one possible example)

As far as I can see FG and Labour are continuing on in the same vein, method of operation and with an equal amount of official state advisor's - and they have some up with nothing except tax - levy - duty - vat - and cuts!

Is this the best we can do? History has shown that one CANNOT get oneself out of a deep recession hole by those methods alone.

We need to start thinking outside the box, beyond the old ways of old Irish ideological politics and methods of daily operation.

Grassroots_FF

Morlar wrote: »

I am starting to think all this posting on boards, complaining about this tax or that tax, this charge or that levy is a waste of effort.

I think we should just complain directly to our Bundestag representative.

Who is the Budestag represenative for Mullingar?

Chucky the tree

Biggins wrote: »

Well thats an opinion - one your very entitled to have.
As for the creation of ideas, so far we have (in my opinion) see the re-spinning of old ideas under a different name and disguised (but similar) method of operation.
(Dumping FAS - with good apparent reason, its replacement? - and their coming up with their new "slave labour on the cheap" indicatives being one possible example)

As far as I can see FG and Labour are continuing on in the same vein, method of operation and with an equal amount of official state advisor's - and they have some up with nothing except tax - levy - duty - vat - and cuts!

Is this the best we can do? History has shown that one CANNOT get oneself out of a deep recession hole by those methods alone.

We need to start thinking outside the box, beyond the old ways of old Irish ideological politics and methods of daily operation.

But the no one is doing this, why is that? Maybe it's because they are lazy or maybe it's because they have tried but can't come up with a workable solution.

Doc Ruby

Chucky the tree wrote: »

But the no one is doing this, why is that? Maybe it's because they are lazy or maybe it's because they have tried but can't come up with a workable solution.

FG still think they won the last election rather than FF losing it, that's why. These are the same lads that were cheering on the gombeens and wishing they could have borrowed even more during the bubble. No surprise they are sticking to the same playbook now the chips are down.

But what alternatives?

I'll note as well that even though the Germans got the first look, that doesn't mean the budget will neccessarily pass, as far as I'm aware. The Dáil still holds the power.

amacachi

Killer Pigeon wrote: »

Personally, I would have thought that a reduction in VAT by 2% (say ~19%) would have actually increased tax revenue because people would be more willing to go out and buy stuff. People will be even more tight on what they spend now and they will try to avoid non-essential products, thereby reducing the estimated revenue by a couple of million (that's if they haven't already factored that into their estimations).

They tried dropping it by 2.5% in the UK and it just made a bigger mess of things and was reversed quickly. It then had to be increased which meant 4% increases in prices just due to VAT over the course of a couple of years.

Wertz wrote: »

I'll provide guided tours of the backroads of S Down/Armagh for a low one off fee.

Make sure you check with everyone it's ok first, don't want to go tripping over anything in the forest. :pac:

Biggins

Chucky the tree wrote: »

But the no one is doing this, why is that? Maybe it's because they are lazy or maybe it's because they have tried but can't come up with a workable solution.

Too busy infighting amid themselves trying to score points?
(Thats WHEN they bother to show up in the Dail and Dublin)
Incapable of moving on, together in any one direction for even a small amount of time?
There are many reasons.

Sometimes I think we should get them and lock them all up in a large room.
Not letting them come out till they come up with ideas that actually are better sense and not just ones that further line the pockets of institutions that are seeing capitalist profit made alone, take precedent over the needs of the state and its people!

parrai

The government haven't a clue, and I would venture to say, that this budget coming up, is the IMF/EU/Germany 'guided' budget...

mdoyler2

The Dept of Finance did miscount €3.6bn last week. I don’t think it’s a bad idea having somebody recheck the numbers, before our team of geniuses ram it through.

Dionysus

The Irish state took EU money, including billions of German taxpayers' money. The political representatives of those taxpayers want to see how they're going to get their money back.

This is no different to senior members of a bank sitting around and analysing how a big debtor is going to repay them. There is a lot of emotionally-driven europhobic talk worthy of the British tabloids going on here. Time to grow up.


I hope the ECB and IMF make this state more efficient and driven by less cronyism. Judging by the perks and numerous pensions which are still given to politicians long before they reach retirement age of 68, it seems that the ECB and IMF is not really interested in attacking the privilege of the political elite whom they need to collaborate with them and is instead focusing on making the rest of us pay. This is a very worrying development. Blame, however, lies first and foremost with the native Irish political and economic elite. It is they who refused to tell the Germans, French and Brits to fúck off in the first place. After that blame lies with the mass of the Irish population, which is too apathetic, too cowardly and too myopic to revolt against the Irish population being forced to repay the private debts of gamblers. Throwing one conservative, well-rewarded government out and electing another conservative, well-rewarded government which feeds from precisely the same trough succinctly sums up the lack of courage of the average Irish voter.

Blaming the Germans for the mistakes of the well-fed, horrendously rewarded, multi-pension-holding Irish political class is both dishonest and scapegoat seeking of the worst kind. It's time for Irish people to stop deluding themselves here.

We can but live in hope.

Arianna_26

Morlar wrote: »

Berlin get to see our Budget first?

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2011/1117/breaking50.html



Any thoughts/opinions on this ? I am inclined to disagree with the govt response on this one.

The Irish Response was absolute sh*t but inevitable. As was our overlords getting to see our budget before we did. They are paying our bills after all, tis the mess we've got ourselves into.

Doc Ruby

Dionysus wrote: »

Throwing one conservative, well-rewarded government out and electing another conservative, well-rewarded government which feeds from precisely the same trough succinctly sums up the lack of courage of the average Irish voter.

Whats the alternative? The shinners or the communists?

Give the Irish people a decent choice and they'll make the right decision.

mickydoomsux

parrai wrote: »

The government haven't a clue, and I would venture to say, that this budget coming up, is the IMF/EU/Germany 'guided' budget...

Haven't the government pretty much said that numerous times recently though?

The EU and IMF are putting pressure on us to put through certain stuff and why wouldn't they? It's their money we're running on and they want to get it back ASAP. I see no problem with them exerting a bit of control, we're not in any position to argue.

OPENROAD

Dionysus wrote: »

The Irish state took EU money, including billions of German taxpayers' money. The political representatives of those taxpayers want to see how they're going to get their money back.

This is no different to senior members of a bank sitting around and analysing how a big debtor is going to repay them. There is a lot of emotionally-driven europhobic talk worthy of the British tabloids going on here. Time to grow up.


I hope the ECB and IMF make this state more efficient and driven by less cronyism. Judging by the perks and numerous pensions which are still given to politicians long before they reach retirement age of 68, it seems that the ECB and IMF is not really interested in attacking the privilege of the political elite whom they need to collaborate with them and is instead focusing on making the rest of us pay. This is a very worrying development. Blame, however, lies first and foremost with the native Irish political and economic elite. It is they who refused to tell the Germans, French and Brits to fúck off in the first place. After that blame lies with the mass of the Irish population, which is too apathetic, too cowardly and too myopic to revolt against the Irish population being forced to repay the private debts of gamblers. Throwing one conservative, well-rewarded government out and electing another conservative, well-rewarded government which feeds from precisely the same trough succinctly sums up the lack of courage of the average Irish voter.

Blaming the Germans for the mistakes of the well-fed, horrendously rewarded, multi-pension-holding Irish political class is both dishonest and scapegoat seeking of the worst kind. It's time for Irish people to stop deluding themselves here.

We can but live in hope.

Wouldn't have viewed them as that myself.

parrai

mickydoomsux wrote: »

Haven't the government pretty much said that numerous times recently though?

The EU and IMF are putting pressure on us to put through certain stuff and why wouldn't they? It's their money we're running on and they want to get it back ASAP. I see no problem with them exerting a bit of control, we're not in any position to argue.

My point is we have an incompetent government. So was the last one, they got by cause things were going well, pretty hard to fuk it up...

My point is, the stone can't provide blood... How much more do you think they can squeeze out of us? This is not just this years budget, there will be another circa 3.6 billion next year, and the year after, and the year after that continously, yet there will be vat increases, stealth taxes, freeze on rises, where is it going to come from? I mean seriously

mickydoomsux

parrai wrote: »

My point is we have an incompetent government. So was the last one, they got by cause things were going well, pretty hard to fuk it up...

My point is, the stone can't provide blood... How much more do you think they can squeeze out of us? This is not just this years budget, there will be another circa 3.6 billion next year, and the year after, and the year after that continously, yet there will be vat increases, stealth taxes, freeze on rises, where is it going to come from? I mean seriously

They'll raise taxes, people will whinge and then they'll get on with life because, in reality, things aren't that bad for an utterly crushing majority of people.

parrai

mickydoomsux wrote: »

They'll raise taxes, people will whinge and then they'll get on with life because, in reality, things aren't that bad for an utterly crushing majority of people.

yeah, tell that to 500,000 on the dole

mickydoomsux

parrai wrote: »

yeah, tell that to 500,000 on the dole

It's not 500,000 for a start and <15% of the workforce isn't a majority.

Stop reading/listening to/watching misery-porn newspapers/radio/TV.

parrai

mickydoomsux wrote: »

It's not 500,000 for a start and <15% of the workforce isn't a majority.

Stop reading/listening to/watching misery-porn newspapers/radio/TV.

Not at all, first and foremost there are about 1.5-2 million people working. I never mentioned majority, you did.

You took issue with my post for whatever reason. The part in bold is just shyte.

K-9

Wertz wrote: »

You expect the masses to have common sense? ...and we did vote yes to all of them, mainly because no-one really understood what each step on the ladder to full integration meant. Oh it's good for business....the europeans are our friends, strength in numbers blah blah.
The place (not just Ireland) was flooded with cheap money from a strong group of lenders. There was no fiscal oversight in place first...not only was the cart put before the horse but the wheel was invented before the horse ever evolved.

Kind of mad we'd moan about increased oversight now though.

Morlar wrote: »

I don't agree with your rosey eyed Pro-Europe take on things. I'd say a large part of the blame lies in the ECB 'No Bank left behind' policy which meant the Irish Govt could not cut Anglo loose. Also in the behind closed doors handling of, and forcing of, the bailout upon Ireland 'Lenihan says ECB forced bail out'.

For somebody who is so smug and self righteous about Lisbon, who do you believe Lenihan?

Lisbon has nothing to do with this, times have moved on long past that. What is clear is, voting No to Lisbon caused massive unemployment and everything after it has been a mess.

K-9

Morlar wrote: »

I don't accept your central assertion that Europe in the form of the EU or ECB are entirely blameless in this.

The idea behind the 'no bank left behind' may have been in the best interests of central europe, however as anglo was not a deposit bank, it was a toxic business to business one it should have been allowed fall, despite ecb fears of a domino effect. Ireland should not have been arm twisted into carrying that. That in itself is a big part of our original problem which snowballed, add to that the ECB approach to Ireland as referenced above it would not be reasonable to simply say (which is in effect what you have been saying ) - 'It's the fault of Ireland, Europe/Eu/Ecb are entirely blameless. It's all down to Irish mistakes. '

Eureopean/eu/ecb Policies and directives and their approach to Ireland are also largely responsible. Their policies may have been benefial for the EU banking system taken as a whole (and the Euro) however they were specifically at our enormous expense so it is simply not factually incorrect to try to apportion all of the blame on the Irish side alone. imo.

FFS, this is like FF revisionism. Lehihan and Cowen decided on the guarantee. Europe knew nothing about it till the morning after. The Commission and the Brits in particular were very pissed of because they knew nothing about it. Those decisions made by a sovereign country have proved disastrous.