No Country for Young Men (or Women)

ILikeBananas

In the 1980's when questioned about Ireland's alarmingly high rate of emigration, Brian Lenihan Senior famously said "We can't all live on this small Island".

This narrow-minded protectionist attitude has once again reared its ugly head in recent times. The current and previous government, through their short sighted policies, have made it abundantly clear that they couldn't really care less about the youth of Ireland.

Examples:

1. The Public Sector Embargo: Today we heard about more reduction in the numbers of people in the Public Sector. However, as usual this reduction will be brought about by natural wastage. There are thousands of positions in the public sector that are surplus to requirements (for example the many planning offices around the country that are staffed to building-boom levels). The fairest and most sensible option to make savings would be to eliminate these positions whilst making a sensible reduction to pay in certain positions throughout the sector. Making cuts through natural wastage protects those already within the sector whilst punishing recent graduates, such as nurses and teachers, who are sorely needed.

2. Reduced pay and privileges in PS: For those lucky enough to get a position in the PS they can look forward to lower wages and pension entitlements than what their colleagues would have started out on. Once again this is protecting the senior people at the expense of the juniors.

3. Slashing of the Capital Expenditure Budget: Last week it was announced that, once again, the axe has fallen on capital projects. These are all long term projects that would have reaped dividends indirectly in future years. Politicians see this as an easy cut as opposed to cutting social welfare, PS pay or increasing taxes, which are all vote losers.

4. Reducing the Jobseeker's Allowance: This was halved for those under 24 in last year's budget. At the same time the pension was kept at the same rate, as were politician's own pay levels. A cynical gesture aimed at a group who predominantly do not vote in high numbers.

5. The impending increase in college fees: Registration fees are due to increase again and the dogs in the street know that actual fees are likely to be re-introduced. Along with restrictions on the grant and Back To Education Allowance this will prevent thousands from pursuing third level education. Admittedly free third level education is not a right and comes with a huge cost, but like the capital expenditure budget it is a solid investment in the future of the country. A major saving in this area could be made in the reduction of the ludicrous salaries that some lecturers are earning when compared to their peers in more prestigious institutions in other countries.

6. Withdrawal of grants for post-graduates: This was announced at the week-end. So much for the much lauded 'knowledge economy'. Many will still find a way to get their way through for for other's this will be too much to ask.

Why don't they just point the school leavers to the airports and ferry terminals, buy them their tickets and get it over with!

danniemcq

in footballing terms, we're a feeder country to the bigger ones. We train them them up and ship them out

foxyboxer

I'll give you a 2:2
Social Studies course is it?

Today we heard about more reduction
in the numbers of people in the Public Sector. However, as usual this reduction will be brought about by natural wastage. There are thousands of positions in the public sector that are surplus to requirements.


So reducing surplus jobs is a bad thing?

ILikeBananas

foxyboxer wrote: »

I'll give you a 2:2
Social Studies course is it?

lol definitely not.

foxyboxer wrote: »

So reducing surplus jobs is a bad thing?

No, of course not. But what's happening is that the surplus jobs are being maintained at the expense of required jobs.

John Doe1

Yeah you are right after i get my degree im heading off. As the old saying goes: "Fcuck you old people"

AnonoBoy

I hope all the young people f*ck off. They're annoying little bastards.

Oranage2

I've haven't been un-emploed for over a month since I was 16 working in a chipper -

I think there are jobs out there -

In the past 2 years I've had 3 jobs -

Since finishing college in the summer I've walking into a job one week out of college, I've also had 4 interviews and 2 job offers since september.

I really feel if you want a job then you'll get one.

Really wanting a job isnt just sending out CV after CV, it;s about upskill, networking and if needs be seek professional help to do up a CV etc.

Maruney

Same as last poster, not unemployed since 17 completly knackered now. You are welcome to my job (IT sector) Im sick of working, I seem to get every job I interview for - damm them.

reprazant

ILikeBananas wrote: »

1. The Public Sector Embargo: Today we heard about more reduction in the numbers of people in the Public Sector. However, as usual this reduction will be brought about by natural wastage. There are thousands of positions in the public sector that are surplus to requirements (for example the many planning offices around the country that are staffed to building-boom levels). The fairest and most sensible option to make savings would be to eliminate these positions whilst making a sensible reduction to pay in certain positions throughout the sector. Making cuts through natural wastage protects those already within the sector whilst punishing recent graduates, such as nurses and teachers, who are sorely needed.

2. Reduced pay and privileges in PS: For those lucky enough to get a position in the PS they can look forward to lower wages and pension entitlements than what their colleagues would have started out on. Once again this is protecting the senior people at the expense of the juniors.

3. Slashing of the Capital Expenditure Budget: Last week it was announced that, once again, the axe has fallen on capital projects. These are all long term projects that would have reaped dividends indirectly in future years. Politicians see this as an easy cut as opposed to cutting social welfare, PS pay or increasing taxes, which are all vote losers.

4. Reducing the Jobseeker's Allowance: This was halved for those under 24 in last year's budget. At the same time the pension was kept at the same rate, as were politician's own pay levels. A cynical gesture aimed at a group who predominantly do not vote in high numbers.

5. The impending increase in college fees: Registration fees are due to increase again and the dogs in the street know that actual fees are likely to be re-introduced. Along with restrictions on the grant and Back To Education Allowance this will prevent thousands from pursuing third level education. Admittedly free third level education is not a right and comes with a huge cost, but like the capital expenditure budget it is a solid investment in the future of the country. A major saving in this area could be made in the reduction of the ludicrous salaries that some lecturers are earning when compared to their peers in more prestigious institutions in other countries.

6. Withdrawal of grants for post-graduates: This was announced at the week-end. So much for the much lauded 'knowledge economy'. Many will still find a way to get their way through for for other's this will be too much to ask.

Why don't they just point the school leavers to the airports and ferry terminals, buy them their tickets and get it over with!

Where exactly should the money come from to stop all these changes that you are against?

How should all this be funded?

Riddle101

Ok then, I'll play the role of Anton Chigurh. I'll roam the country, challenging people to a game of coin toss. In a game of fate. I'll also do hitmen jobs as well, but here's the catch. I'll kill everyone who's involved in the job, including the people who hired me.:D

chiloutus

You're right OP but the problem is the country is bankrupted so nothing could change!! Unfortunately we will have no choice but to leave this country!

pow wow

What's the obsession with the PS?

ILikeBananas

reprazant wrote: »

Where exactly should the money come from to stop all these changes that you are against?

How should all this be funded?

Excellent question. As we all know the country is knackered. Everybody can appreciate that. We keep hearing phrases like "We're all in this together" and "Everyone partied during the boom" (what is it with the Lenihan's and risible quotes!). So, yes like others the young people should make some sacrifices.

However, is it fair to make sacrifices when others are not pulling their weight?

I'm talking specifically about:

Semi-state workers (average ESB worker is on 94 grand a year)
Senior PS workers (hospital consultants, politicians, senior lecturers and senior staff in all government departments including NAMA and the NTMA)
Pensioners (state pension is seemingly immune to cuts)

I also believe that the headline rates of JA and child benefit are too high.

Rent allowance is a farce. It's propping up the Landlords of the country and putting an artificial floor into both the rental and property markets.

So yes taking from all of the above might give some young people a future in this country.

And of course the biggest saving of all that can be made is on the repayments of our 'obligations' to bondholders in failed banks. Greece got a reduction of 50%, so why the hell are we still paying full whack?

Cian92

Oranage2 wrote: »

I've haven't been un-emploed for over a month since I was 16 working in a chipper -

I think there are jobs out there -

In the past 2 years I've had 3 jobs -

You don't seem to be able to hold down a job for too long though...

reprazant

ILikeBananas wrote: »

Semi-state workers (average ESB worker is on 94 grand a year)

That's a bit like saying we should cut nurses pay because the average wage in a hospital is huge, ignoring the fact that it is the likes of upper management and consultants that ensure the average pay is large.

ILikeBananas

pow wow wrote: »

What's the obsession with the PS?

Through the process of benchmarking the PS was pegged to the private sector during a bubble period of inflated and artificial wealth. When the bubble burst PS salaries and benefits remained pegged to this artificial level. Even with the adjustments of 2009 they still remain far higher in relation to the private sector than they did in the 1990's.

I believe it to be inherently unfair that the crippled private sector along with the future generations (via national borrowing) are paying for a system that guarantees an overly generous salary, a pension and a guaranteed job.

ILikeBananas

reprazant wrote: »

That's a bit like saying we should cut nurses pay because the average wage in a hospital is huge, ignoring the fact that it is the likes of upper management and consultants that ensure the average pay is large.

That would be true if I said that we should be cutting the salaries of the people on the bottom rungs in the ESB. I didn't.

parker kent

ILikeBananas wrote: »

5. The impending increase in college fees: Registration fees are due to increase again and the dogs in the street know that actual fees are likely to be re-introduced. Along with restrictions on the grant and Back To Education Allowance this will prevent thousands from pursuing third level education. Admittedly free third level education is not a right and comes with a huge cost, but like the capital expenditure budget it is a solid investment in the future of the country. A major saving in this area could be made in the reduction of the ludicrous salaries that some lecturers are earning when compared to their peers in more prestigious institutions in other countries.

You do realise that these savings are minuscule in comparison to the amount of money that re-introduced fees would provide? It would be a saving, but not a major saving. Ditto any bonuses. Sure it would be nice to get your pound of flesh, but it would make little difference.

Also, cost of living needs to be considered. If you look at the figures, we are not that different to the countries like us. Also, if we are to get the best third level sector possible (as is a common desire), we need to compete with the Universities in the top 100 in the world. If you look at this link, we are close enough to the UK and pay less than Denmark for example when the cost of living is taken into account. Japanese and American universities pay more.

The report found broad differences between salaries in the EU and associated countries, which however were reduced once salaries were adjusted to the cost of living in each country. As expected, countries with a high cost of living were those that paid researchers better. Low-medium salary levels were reported in Eastern Europe and the Mediterranean region, while high-very high salaries were paid in Central Europe and the Nordic countries.

A few countries (Austria, The Netherlands, Israel, Switzerland and Luxembourg) offered avarage salaries in line with the U.S. considering the cost of living.

Other countries outside the EU (Australia, India, Japan) all have average higher remuneration than the EU-25 area considering the cost of living. In Australia and Japan salaries are similar to those of the U.S. The only country in which the average salary was well below the EU was China.

http://www.eui.eu/ProgrammesAndFellowships/AcademicCareersObservatory/CareerComparisons/SalaryComparisons.aspx#SalariesCostLiving

Obviously they are high. But lets not lie and say that fees could be prevented by cutting wages of a few people. It would be a nice gesture and should be done, but it won't eliminate the funding crisis at third level institutes.

ILikeBananas

parker kent wrote: »

You do realise that these savings are minuscule in comparison to the amount of money that re-introduced fees would provide? It would be a saving, but not a major saving. Ditto any bonuses. Sure it would be nice to get your pound of flesh, but it would make little difference.

Agreed. It is similar for politicians pay but if these are cut then it will be easier to enforce cuts at middle management level.

parker kent wrote: »

Also, cost of living needs to be considered. If you look at the figures, we are not that different to the countries like us. Also, if we are to get the best third level sector possible (as is a common desire), we need to compete with the Universities in the top 100 in the world. If you look at this link, we are close enough to the UK and pay less than Denmark for example when the cost of living is taken into account. Japanese and American universities pay more.

That link appears to be comparing the salaried of researchers. I was more referring to senior lecturing positions.

Also, on the point of paying to attract the best. Wouldn't that money be better spent investing it on buildings and equipment rather than on lecturer's salaries? In the two third level institutions that I studied in in this country, I noticed no difference in the quality of lecturing between the native lecturers and the foreign lecturers.

reprazant

ILikeBananas wrote: »

That would be true if I said that we should be cutting the salaries of the people on the bottom rungs in the ESB. I didn't.

You said cut the wages of semi-state bodies.

You didn't specify anything so I presume you also mean the people at the bottom rungs.

You then rolled out the type of false stat that the tabloids use to make their ham fisted points.

Chuck Stone

It's easy to point at stuff and say 'that's just not right' but what do you suggest we do OP?

parker kent

ILikeBananas wrote: »

That link appears to be comparing the salaried of researchers. I was more referring to senior lecturing positions.

The document refers to PhD students, postdocs, junior lecturers, assistant professors, senior lecturers, associate professors and full professors. That particular table refers to researchers, but research is a primary function of all academics. Anyway, the point of me linking that table was as an attempt to show how cost of living changes needs to be considered. There are numerous reports contained within that URL detailing studies into academic salaries.

ILikeBananas

reprazant wrote: »

You then rolled out the type of false stat that the tabloids use to make their ham fisted points.

The average wage of ESB workers? How is that a false stat?

Do you think that ESB workers are paid a fair wage in comparison to the wages of workers in private sector companies like Eirtricity and the electricity generation companies in the UK?

ILikeBananas

Chuck Stone wrote: »

It's easy to point at stuff and say 'that's just not right' but what do you suggest we do OP?

As a whole I think that the youth of the country are being sacrificed so as to try and maintain the lifestyle of the older generations. I'd like to see more of a balance. This would require the government to stop paying people so much, whether it be in wages, benefits or pensions.

It's completely unsustainable. There's a 12 Billion Euro budget deficit. We need to stop the bleeding. So we have to cut those payments and we need to increase taxes, particularly on higher earners.

After that we need to plan for the future and increase our spending on capital expenditure. We have to ensure that our public money goes more into services and less into wages.

Reducing PS wages will result in huge troubles in the mortgage markets with people who spent foolishly during the boom. It's of utmost importance that the bankruptcy laws are brought in sooner rather than later.

These are not easy decisions. Nobody is claiming that they are. However the idea that we can all go around pretending that we live in a wealthy country whilst the IMF are in here paying the bills is ludicrous.

maninasia

I think you are making 100% sense and it's a shame that this reality is papered over in Irish society. Even with a debt per capita that is the highest in the world there has been almost no lay-offs or proper restructuring of government organisations or social welfare schemes. They live in fairyland but the issue will be forced due to the coming sovereign debt crises and possible Eurozone break-up.

Again and again it's go take a hike to the next generation, we'll look after our voting sectors first whether it be old age pensioners, PS or social welfare recipients.

reprazant

ILikeBananas wrote: »

The average wage of ESB workers? How is that a false stat?

Do you think that ESB workers are paid a fair wage in comparison to the wages of workers in private sector companies like Eirtricity and the electricity generation companies in the UK?

I don't know.

Why not post the pay scale of ESB instead of the average wage?

What is the pay scale of Eirtricity? Considering how rubbish their service is, and how pushy their sales staff are, I doubt they get paid much at all.

What is pay scales of British electrical companies?

Do you have any of this information or just a throw away comment?

pragmatic1

Yep. Well said. Doesnt even matter if we get our finances in order, theres still almost half a million on the dole. Dark days ahead.

ILikeBananas

reprazant wrote: »

I don't know.

Why not post the pay scale of ESB instead of the average wage?

I'd love to if that information was publicly available. Unfortunately the ESB and other semi-state bodies are exempt from Freedom of Information requests.

Jesus Wept

AnonoBoy wrote: »

I hope all the young people f*ck off. They're annoying little bastards.

/shakes stick

Dudess

ILikeBananas wrote: »

average ESB worker is on 94 grand a year

So if you were to add every annual salary in the ESB (and that doesn't include those who are outsourced) and divide it by the number of people, the result would be 94 grand?
What critically thinking person would just accept that?
Oh I know - the ones who want to believe it.
I thought it was 70 grand there a few months ago - wow, that's some pay rise.

Why not post the pay scale of ESB instead of the average wage?

I'd love to if that information was publicly available. Unfortunately the ESB and other semi-state bodies are exempt from Freedom of Information requests.

So how do you know what the average salary is? Oh yeah, you don't.

starlit

ILikeBananas wrote: »

In the 1980's when questioned about Ireland's alarmingly high rate of emigration, Brian Lenihan Senior famously said "We can't all live on this small Island".

This narrow-minded protectionist attitude has once again reared its ugly head in recent times. The current and previous government, through their short sighted policies, have made it abundantly clear that they couldn't really care less about the youth of Ireland.

Examples:

1. The Public Sector Embargo: Today we heard about more reduction in the numbers of people in the Public Sector. However, as usual this reduction will be brought about by natural wastage. There are thousands of positions in the public sector that are surplus to requirements (for example the many planning offices around the country that are staffed to building-boom levels). The fairest and most sensible option to make savings would be to eliminate these positions whilst making a sensible reduction to pay in certain positions throughout the sector. Making cuts through natural wastage protects those already within the sector whilst punishing recent graduates, such as nurses and teachers, who are sorely needed.

True its hitting badly at the moment but the drastic aspect of employment in this sector won't surface for another few years in 2015 as mentioned on the radio.

2. Reduced pay and privileges in PS: For those lucky enough to get a position in the PS they can look forward to lower wages and pension entitlements than what their colleagues would have started out on. Once again this is protecting the senior people at the expense of the juniors.

It was expected.

3. Slashing of the Capital Expenditure Budget: Last week it was announced that, once again, the axe has fallen on capital projects. These are all long term projects that would have reaped dividends indirectly in future years. Politicians see this as an easy cut as opposed to cutting social welfare, PS pay or increasing taxes, which are all vote losers.

Its going to happen regardless to save money.

4. Reducing the Jobseeker's Allowance: This was halved for those under 24 in last year's budget. At the same time the pension was kept at the same rate, as were politician's own pay levels. A cynical gesture aimed at a group who predominantly do not vote in high numbers.

5. The impending increase in college fees: Registration fees are due to increase again and the dogs in the street know that actual fees are likely to be re-introduced. Along with restrictions on the grant and Back To Education Allowance this will prevent thousands from pursuing third level education. Admittedly free third level education is not a right and comes with a huge cost, but like the capital expenditure budget it is a solid investment in the future of the country. A major saving in this area could be made in the reduction of the ludicrous salaries that some lecturers are earning when compared to their peers in more prestigious institutions in other countries.

Its inevitable it was bount to happen in order to keep the standard of education in third level up to meet the standards of uni's and IT's around the world.

6. Withdrawal of grants for post-graduates: This was announced at the week-end. So much for the much lauded 'knowledge economy'. Many will still find a way to get their way through for for other's this will be too much to ask.

This I don't agree with its quiet expensive to do postgrad study why do this as there wouldn't be as many postgrad students compared to undergrads.

Why don't they just point the school leavers to the airports and ferry terminals, buy them their tickets and get it over with!

ILikeBananas

Dudess wrote: »

So how do you know what the average salary is? Oh yeah, you don't.

The total salary bill is available along with the total number of workers.

For anyone who doesn't think that people in the ESB are overpaid, consider this: A graduate electrical engineer straight out of university starting off in the ESB receives a salary of 38,000 euro. They have been quite open about advertising this at career fairs.

Dudess

ILikeBananas wrote: »

Dudess wrote: »

So how do you know what the average salary is? Oh yeah, you don't.

The total salary bill is available along with the total number of workers.

Where?

For anyone who doesn't think that people in the ESB are overpaid, consider this: A graduate electrical engineer straight out of university starting off in the ESB receives a salary of 38,000 euro. They have been quite open about advertising this at career fairs.

That is ONE type of position there - what about the myriad of others? And maybe the ESB over pays some (not all) its staff but I doubt it's silly enough to pay out an average figure of €94,000.
Question things - don't just believe people with an agenda because you like the idea of what they say.

complicit

ILikeBananas wrote: »

The total salary bill is available along with the total number of workers.

For anyone who doesn't think that people in the ESB are overpaid, consider this: A graduate electrical engineer straight out of university starting off in the ESB receives a salary of 38,000 euro. They have been quite open about advertising this at career fairs.

That isn't excessive for a good engineer who after all are professionals . There are ESB workers without a degree to their name pushing buttons in Moneypoint for 6 figures , fact .

texidub

It's not just about the inflated economics of overpaid PS workers, SW recipients, (and inflated private sector wages in many cases too!)and the old boys and girls networks that run the country (into the ground): if you are young and ambitious and don't have ten lives available, I would encourage you to leave Ireland. Life is short, there is a whole world out there and Ireland is but a blip. A lah-lah island with extraordinary notions of its place in the world. (Napoleon syndrome stuff.)

If you're ambitious, here's the thing: in most fields, doing well in Ireland doesn't really prove anything in big scheme of things. Get out into the world and prove yourself against some real competition. No one else is going to do it for you!