Unregistered non purebred Sturk Bull

Grecco

I`m thinking of just buying a top notch BB Weanlen and then keeping him as a Bull next year. The main reason for doing so is the cost of a pure-bred Blue is prohibitive, also I can pick up a great BB Weanlen for around 900 yoyos

Anyone done anything like this? and is there any restrictions in the suckler welfare scheme etc ? And what type of results have yee had?

jeff greene

Never did it, never would. But have heard of it and not knowing the breeding, a lad got got with difficult calvings.

whelan1

jeff greene wrote: »

Never did it, never would. But have heard of it and not knowing the breeding, a lad got got with difficult calvings.

+100% pure madness,... for the sake of a grand , you could save alot in vets fees and difficult calvings

pakalasa

I have thought of breeding my own. Say a good AI home bred cow and then give her a good easy calving AI BB bull. At least you'd know 3/4 of the breeding then. The down sides would be that you couldn't use him on any relatives in the herd. I keep replacements from my best cows, so that would rule out a lot of the cows....:D
He'd also bring far less muscling than a pure bred, so weanlings would only be average at best. Also he'd cost the same to feed. If his weanlings were worth €50 less than a pure bred, then over 20 cows and 5 years, that's €5000 you'd loose by having him. You'd buy a good bull for that...;)

flatout11

Grecco wrote: »

I`m thinking of just buying a top notch BB Weanlen and then keeping him as a Bull next year. The main reason for doing so is the cost of a pure-bred Blue is prohibitive, also I can pick up a great BB Weanlen for around 900 yoyos

Anyone done anything like this? and is there any restrictions in the suckler welfare scheme etc ? And what type of results have yee had?

blue cross what, bb charo lim......i
ts unlikely the calving difficulty will be any worse than the sire probably not as difficult as the dam is not likely to be that outrageous, calves probably wont be as consisent though

Grecco

Jauzz fierce negativity here altogether.
I was thinking of a BB off a limo cow, I ve seen plenty of them. Cant believe that they would be any harder to calf than the original sire, plus I wasn`t going to buy one with a huge head.
Surly there's lads/ladies out there who have ran a sturk bull with good results?

Bizzum

Grecco wrote: »

I`m thinking of just buying a top notch BB Weanlen and then keeping him as a Bull next year. The main reason for doing so is the cost of a pure-bred Blue is prohibitive, also I can pick up a great BB Weanlen for around 900 yoyos

Anyone done anything like this? and is there any restrictions in the suckler welfare scheme etc ? And what type of results have yee had?

Firstly I'm not so sure a "great" BB weanling would be bought for €900. Maybe a very young one?

Inconsistancy would be a concern for me, PB BB bulls can be hit and miss never mind Xbred ones.

Occasionally we would have a cow got at by a strong weanling and mostly you can tell by the resultant calf, even though many of our weanlings would have a lot of AI breeding in them!
I suppose if you were to go down that road you'd want to see the cow and know her breeding.
To be honest with you it's something I often though about, We would have some PB Charolais cows and I have often put AI BB, Lim and BA on them. This often got me thinking what would happen if I kept a bull from one of these to breed off?

flatout11

Grecco wrote: »

Jauzz fierce negativity here altogether.
I was thinking of a BB off a limo cow, I ve seen plenty of them. Cant believe that they would be any harder to calf than the original sire, plus I wasn`t going to buy one with a huge head.
Surly there's lads/ladies out there who have ran a sturk bull with good results?

they wont be any harder calved (bit of a myth) especially of a limo cow.there are still a fair few lads using crossbred bulls some of them leaving smashers, some not. The fact that an animal is a crossbred doesnt mean he will leave rubbish after him
you wont get a decent bb pb bull for less than €3000,
TBH though in your situation would you not be better using AI (bb) and try to pick up a charo bull at reasonable money for cleaning up .........
at the end of the day a bad bb is a waste of time, a plain charo will still sell well enough

leg wax

Grecco wrote: »

I`m thinking of just buying a top notch BB Weanlen and then keeping him as a Bull next year. The main reason for doing so is the cost of a pure-bred Blue is prohibitive, also I can pick up a great BB Weanlen for around 900 yoyos

Anyone done anything like this? and is there any restrictions in the suckler welfare scheme etc ? And what type of results have yee had?

grecco if you are going down the blue route then theres only one way and thats breed from the best,the best cow ,the best bull,hit and miss blues will not make you money,now i am not saying your type of bull wont do the job,but he wont help it.as for a cross bred been harder dont know but would not think so.if i was to try what you are saying i would try a snow white bull with all the muscle he can carry, but you wont get him for 900 yoyos.

polod

Grecco wrote: »

I`m thinking of just buying a top notch BB Weanlen and then keeping him as a Bull next year. The main reason for doing so is the cost of a pure-bred Blue is prohibitive, also I can pick up a great BB Weanlen for around 900 yoyos

Anyone done anything like this? and is there any restrictions in the suckler welfare scheme etc ? And what type of results have yee had?

Is that not illegal ? im not sure but I think I heard that some where

leg wax

polod wrote: »

Is that not illegal ? im not sure but I think I heard that some where

who's going to stop me:).

Bizzum

polod wrote: »

Is that not illegal ? im not sure but I think I heard that some where

Which bit?

blue5000

pakalasa wrote: »

I have thought of breeding my own. Say a good AI home bred cow and then give her a good easy calving AI BB bull. At least you'd know 3/4 of the breeding then. The down sides would be that you couldn't use him on any relatives in the herd. I keep replacements from my best cows, so that would rule out a lot of the cows....:D
He'd also bring far less muscling than a pure bred, so weanlings would only be average at best. Also he'd cost the same to feed. If his weanlings were worth €50 less than a pure bred, then over 20 cows and 5 years, that's €5000 you'd loose by having him. You'd buy a good bull for that...;)

Would agree with pakalasa 100% on this, I wasn't at the bb sale in roscrea recently, but I reckon you would get a purebred bull for 2k, don't know how good he'd be but I reckon buying a weanling X you'd have a 10% chance of picking a good one.

Juniorhurler

blue5000 wrote: »

Would agree with pakalasa 100% on this, I wasn't at the bb sale in roscrea recently, but I reckon you would get a purebred bull for 2k, don't know how good he'd be but I reckon buying a weanling X you'd have a 10% chance of picking a good one.

Not a hope. I was there and anything bringing under €3000 left the ring not sold. I have a photo of a heifer on the photos thread and tbh if you want a bull you'd be better picking up a heifer for €2kish and breeding one from there and using A.I until then.

blue5000

so if they left the ring unsold where are they now?

Bodacious

flatout11 wrote: »

they wont be any harder calved (bit of a myth) especially of a limo cow.there are still a fair few lads using crossbred bulls some of them leaving smashers, some not. The fact that an animal is a crossbred doesnt mean he will leave rubbish after him
you wont get a decent bb pb bull for less than €3000,
TBH though in your situation would you not be better using AI (bb) and try to pick up a charo bull at reasonable money for cleaning up .........
at the end of the day a bad bb is a waste of time, a plain charo will still sell well enough

+1 with flatout11 on this one

If i were to run a scrub with the cows for pure handiness/work/fertility problems with ai etc id get the best growthy white char with a good end that i could get and steer clear of the blues... money not there any more for middle of the road blues and they will be middle of the road..yellow/white char colour alone will sell better all day , just IMO

leg wax

blue5000 wrote: »

so if they left the ring unsold where are they now?

they sold so few that they are haveing a extra sale in feb,they are calling it a elite sale of bb ,i think i am glad that i held off from buying but time will tell,did everyone see the front of the comic sukler herd going to increase,blues will be at the top again next fall due to over supply for irish market.

Juniorhurler

leg wax wrote: »

they sold so few that they are haveing a extra sale in feb,they are calling it a elite sale of bb ,i think i am glad that i held off from buying but time will tell,did everyone see the front of the comic sukler herd going to increase,blues will be at the top again next fall due to over supply for irish market.

Not strictly true. That extra sale was scheduled about 6 weeks before the October Premier sale regardless of what was sold or unsold on that day. I had got a text from the BB society announcing it. I think it is more to do with the amount of embryos that have been implanted over the last three years.

A blue bull will never be bought for €2k. Heres why.

Embryo @ €100 (Producing your own) or €350 (buying)
Implanting it @€;80
Cost of feed programme and synchronising heat on recipients @ €70/hd
Cost of caesarian @ €200 (Not worth the risk of trying to calve them)
You get about 66% pregnancies. Allowing for no losses at calving or no bad legs etc. this adds 33% of above cost to each calf so
€450+33%= €600

Register an embryo born blue is €100 afair.
Now at €700

Bull eats roughly 2 tonne of meal @250/t is €500
Now at €1200 per animal with your own embryos or €1450 with bought embryos.

Keep the bull to two years old, Ring him, train him to lead, various vets bills etc. You need AT LEAST €3000 to make this any way worth while.

Plus these bad boys kill out way over 60% so at current prices an 800 kilo blue will make €2000 in the factory.
They can also be sold back to Belgium for €3.20 per kilo live weight. Thats €2560 for an 800 kilo animal.

leg wax

sorry i was only imformed of this new sale last week ,i am a fully paid up member ,why are we not all told about this at the same time.ps can i have details of who is exporting stock bulls at that money as i have mine to go.are my sums wrong but a bull killing out 500kilos dead weight would have to make 4 euro a kilo.what factory is paying that for old blue bulls.

Juniorhurler

leg wax wrote: »

sorry i was only imformed of this new sale last week ,i am a fully paid up member ,why are we not all told about this at the same time.ps can i have details of who is exporting stock bulls at that money as i have mine to go.

Don't know will stock bulls make the grade for it. I think there is an age restriction. I'll have to look up those details for you.

Muckit

Getting back to the original tread.... purebred vs cross bred....

Would lads regard culard charolais as a pb? :rolleyes: Are they an inferior animal if they're not 'purebred'....

Also stabiliser cattle are a 3-way hybrid.... are they inferior cattle?

If your using good genetics, be they 'purebred' or crossbred, you'I have a good chance of breeding quality.

If you pick out the best X bred weanling from this year's crop of calves, cull of your poor performing cows(including his mother), and run him with your cows next year, you mean to say you won't bring good calves?:rolleyes:

We all have seen the crossbred animal that are much better turned out animals than some purebreds. Just look at the commercial section at shows and fatstock sales.

jeff greene

I think the original point was buying a weanling at the mart and running him as a stock bull, my only concern is calving difficulty with not knowing his breeding. Nothing wrong with crossbred bulls

flatout11

[QUOTE=Juniorhurler;. You need AT LEAST €3000 to make this any way worth while.[/QUOTE]
id agree fully

flatout11

jeff greene wrote: »

I think the original point was buying a weanling at the mart and running him as a stock bull, my only concern is calving difficulty with not knowing his breeding. Nothing wrong with crossbred bulls

its something to be careful of alright, but i think the charo option to clean up may be the right choice

Nutcase

Grecco wrote: »

I`m thinking of just buying a top notch BB Weanlen and then keeping him as a Bull next year. The main reason for doing so is the cost of a pure-bred Blue is prohibitive, also I can pick up a great BB Weanlen for around 900 yoyos

Anyone done anything like this? and is there any restrictions in the suckler welfare scheme etc ? And what type of results have yee had?

I think its a good idea.. if your registered on icbf you should be able to check then breeding of the weanling if the other farmer registered all the details, you wont know this until after you buy though.
A crossbred weanling may also last longer than purebred less sore feet and improved fertility etc.
There would be no harm in trying it i guess!

Grecco

Well lads, I`m still going to give it a go. Im already running two charolais PB bulls and I`m getting a replacement charolais for another one Bull but he wont be ready till late next summer so I`ll chance it with the Weanlen BB till then.
I`m also a bit surprised that there isnt more people doing it but I guess with the current rise in the price of PBs a few more people might give it a try.
I`ll post a picture and the breeding of the Bull Weanlen when I get him.
till then keep up the debate!!

Juniorhurler

Grecco wrote: »

Well lads, I`m still going to give it a go. Im already running two charolais PB bulls and I`m getting a replacement charolais for another one Bull but he wont be ready till late next summer so I`ll chance it with the Weanlen BB till then.
I`m also a bit surprised that there isnt more people doing it but I guess with the current rise in the price of PBs a few more people might give it a try.
I`ll post a picture and the breeding of the Bull Weanlen when I get him.
till then keep up the debate!!

Best of luck with it Grecco. Hope he leaves trailer loads of €1000 euro weanlings after him.

Muckit

http://www.donedeal.co.uk/for-sale/beefcattle/2711999

polod

Nutcase wrote: »

I think its a good idea.. if your registered on icbf you should be able to check then breeding of the weanling if the other farmer registered all the details, you wont know this until after you buy though.
A crossbred weanling may also last longer than purebred less sore feet and improved fertility etc.
There would be no harm in trying it i guess!

If thats the case then why would any one buy a PB bull........I just thought that a cross bred bull on a cross bred cow would throw 'wonky' calves ??? but never had a calf of a cross bred bull so I don't know.

Nutcase

polod wrote: »

If thats the case then why would any one buy a PB bull........I just thought that a cross bred bull on a cross bred cow would throw 'wonky' calves ??? but never had a calf of a cross bred bull so I don't know.

People buy a PB bull I guess because they think they are buying the best genetics to bred within their herd.
Most crossbred bulls imo are hardier than purebreds thats the point I was trying to make.
What do you mean by "wonky" calves?

reilig

What about a calf off a pb limousin cow and a pb ai bull?

You'd be breeding 2 pedigrees so you'd be able to check their stats. You could choose breeding from both sides that were easy calving. Your bull would be less likely to have inconsistant calf sizes.

greysides

reilig wrote: »

What about a calf off a pb limousin cow and a pb ai bull?

You'd be breeding 2 pedigrees so you'd be able to check their stats. You could choose breeding from both sides that were easy calving. Your bull would be less likely to have inconsistant calf sizes.

Careful!! You could start a new composite breed that way!

Bizzum

greysides wrote: »

Careful!! You could start a new composite breed that way!

I see it all now.................


Ring the AI man................What D'ya want on her?



Ahhhhh.............Stick an easy calving Reilig on her:D

reilig

Just remember where you saw it first!!

Bizzum wrote: »

greysides wrote: »

Careful!! You could start a new composite breed that way!

I see it all now.................


Ring the AI man................What D'ya want on her?



Ahhhhh.............Stick an easy calving Reilig on her:D

1chippy

reiligs suggestion is prob best i heard yet. I doubt they would be easy calving just because parents were. you might end up picking up the worst traits of both breeds and end up with bad weanlings. for the price of an extra couple of hundred euros would you not go pb. let the hybrid come from the cows. remember the bulls half the heard and i presume its worth more than a few hundred at the end of the year.

Kovu

What we have seen the last couple of years off our stock- (PB LM X BB)
If a Dec/Jan calved bull gets to the cows, we let them run if incalf.
So far....and I stress..so far we have had better pp/kilo animals off them compared to the AI.
Then again, most of our PB cows are Navarin/PAM bred so they are easy calving. Luckily enough, the years that the bulls got them we were still phasing out the rest of the herd so we got no inbreeding.
Prob did take a chance with a BB cow and VDCX strong bull on a couple 17 month old a few years ago.
But strong hardy calves that were eating silage at 2 days and had learned to jump the barrier for it!

It's up to yourself OP, a throwback can cost you if you don't know all the cows/bulls past breeding.

blue5000

War nearly broke out a few years back at a fatstock show/sale near here when the winner was 'got by a scrub bull'.

OP it can work out, sometimes, but I prefer to spend money and buy a purebred bull. As has been said above a bull is half the herd.