Republic of Ireland Team Talk/News/Rumours

LuckyLloyd

doncarlos wrote: »

O'Neill came in for Trap and if anything we have gone backwards

TheCitizen wrote: »

From where were in the last 18 months of Trap's reign? No we haven't. Another unfathomable comment.

doncarlos wrote: »

Where is the improvement?

listermint wrote: »

On the Pitch and i garner in the seats.


Writing it off already = Hilarious

I wouldn't 'write off' O'Neill / Keane because my position on the quality of the squad has not changed - the same players are in place and any real talent we had is older than they were in 2012 (Coleman the only real exception tbh). Nor do I neccesarily think things have gone 'backwards', but I'm struggling to see what the improvements are really?

bren2001 wrote: »

I was only having this conversation with a friend a few weeks ago. While the quality of football has somewhat improved under O'Neil, if Trap had this group we would have the same number of points. Main difference being we would have lost to Germany but never would have lost to Scotland. I was personally sad to see Trap go.

I think you're spot on in terms of the number of points garnered which is the important thing. If the style of football has changed, it's marginal. We tried to knock it around in the first few friendlies and shipped a few goals so it's clear that O'Neill and Keane have rightly locked it down with points at stake.

I didn't have any issues with what Trapp was doing with this squad, so I have no issues with O'Neill's tenure thus far. People pretending there is a massive difference are fooling themselves - though the harshest critics of Trapp's reign are obviously obliged to make that case.

Adamocovic

doncarlos wrote: »

Maybe I have higher expectations than you. You seem happy with mediocrity I however am not.

Again opinions. I'd call my expectations realistic. Ok let's look at it from this point of view.

We're ranked 60th in the world, we get a draw with Germany (world champions in Germany) a draw with Poland (team top of the table and ranked nearly 30 spots ahead of us) and lost to Scotland (in Scotland and they are ranked inside the top 30)

Now its the half way point of qualification and we are 3 points off top of the table. We've got the second best goal difference in the group, only Germany and Scotland have had more possession against us when we played them (Scotland only slightly, in terms of chances on target corners etc we had more).

In my mind that is not mediocrity, not at all. The performances on the pitch and style of play have been better than Traps last 12 months or so in charge and theres nothing to look down on last minute goals, sign that they don't give up. We just need someone like Long to hit scoring form and results will improve even more.

But half way during the qualification is just silly in my mind to start throwing insults at the manager and calling for him to be sacked.

doncarlos

I'm absolutely baffled with some of the viewpoints on here. We were second seeds in this group and people are actually willing to accept us finishing fourth?

Ahhhh sure it's grand we tried our best......

Ormus

doncarlos wrote: »

That sounds like a speech from the Mighty Ducks. Maybe O'Neill should try the 'Flying V' formation against Scotland.

Generally the better team over the 90 minutes gets what they deserve. I thought we were lucky to get the win in Georgia and draw in Germany but deserved the draw against Poland.

I haven't seen the Mighty Ducks sorry, can't comment on the formation you're talking about. Generally, yes, the better team wins, but it's not at all unusual for a team to get a result despite being outplayed. That's why it's a 'shrewd tactic' to keep trying. Trust me on this.

adaminho

doncarlos wrote: »

How long would you keep O'Neill in the job for? Would you be happy to keep him if we finish 4th in these qualifiers? Is 4th place acceptable to you?

I would give him to the end of the qualifiers at least. He's had 5 competitive games.

Adamocovic

Pro. F wrote: »

Did you miss the point about the money we pay?

I think that's a silly way of looking at it, going to wave around some money and have managers like Van Gaal, Scolari, Low, Klinsmann, Blanc, Del Bosque, Hiddink to come running at the idea of managing us.

It wen't from the likes of McCarthy, Coyle and Hughton to sayign we should be getting someone from the best international manager bracket.. maybe you guys do have higher expectations or standards than me but I think it's crazy to think someone like that would want to join a team like us.

And again as I have said so many times is it no a bit ridiculous to start calling for O'Neill to be sacked? At least wait until this campaign is over before throwing abuse and criticism at him.

LuckyLloyd

doncarlos wrote: »

I'm absolutely baffled with some of the viewpoints on here. We were second seeds in this group and people are actually willing to accept us finishing fourth?

Ahhhh sure it's grand we tried our best......

Not happy. Far from it, this is the worst Irish squad / run of performances I can remember and it hurts. But I think our second seeding owes its origins to the first four years of the Trapp reign and I think 2012 was already past the sell by date for a collection of Irish players (Keane, Duff, Dunne, Given, Kilbane) who have yet to be replaced in terms of quality and / or application.

Adamocovic

doncarlos wrote: »

I'm absolutely baffled with some of the viewpoints on here. We were second seeds in this group and people are actually willing to accept us finishing fourth?

Ahhhh sure it's grand we tried our best......

So if we are to look at rankings:

Germany- World Champion- Ranking- 1st
Scotland- 28th
Poland- 32nd
Ireland- 60th

So far we are three points off the top as I have stated before. Hardly panic stations just yet.

5 proffessional games into his coaching career here and 3 points off top with a draw against the world champions away and a draw against Poland (top of the group).

To be calling for him to get the sack before this qualification is even over is baffling to me.

doncarlos

Adamocovic wrote: »

And again as I have said so many times is it no a bit ridiculous to start calling for O'Neill to be sacked? At least wait until this campaign is over before throwing abuse and criticism at him.

The campaign could be over on Saturday. A few of us arguing here IF we lose against Scotland then he should be sacked. You have just made the same point.

What exactly are you arguing?

Adamocovic

doncarlos wrote: »

The campaign could be over on Saturday. A few of us arguing here IF we lose against Scotland then he should be sacked. You have just made the same point.

What exactly are you arguing?

I have not made the same point at all, I am saying you could at least wait until the campaign is over to call for the mans head, not until the Scottish game is over but until the actual qualification group stages have been completed.

After the final game has been played we can assess the campaign all we want and I will still be under the opinion we should stick with him for the world cup qualification.

Edit: I also think there are people here who have had their minds set on him going since his first day in charge and win or lose against Scotland will call for him to go anyway.

LuckyLloyd

Adamocovic wrote: »

So if we are to look at rankings:

Germany- World Champion- Ranking- 1st
Scotland- 28th
Poland- 32nd
Ireland- 60th

So far we are three points off the top as I have stated before. Hardly panic stations just yet.

5 proffessional games into his coaching career here and 3 points off top with a draw against the world champions away and a draw against Poland (top of the group).

To be calling for him to get the sack before this qualification is even over is baffling to me.

I think it will be fairly clear that our goose is cooked should we lose on Saturday. Like it or lump it, there will be a huge checkpoint taken if that's the case.

I wouldn't want the current management team sacked unless we have a replacement of a demonstrably higher quality lined up. But make no mistake that the conversation will move towards those lines if we're out of the running in a qualification process before Autumn.

whiskeyman

Just heard on the radio that McGeady is a doubt for tomorrow.
MON saying he's still 'sore', but no real details?
Is this just mindgames?
Oh... saw elsewhere possible hamstring trouble.
I hope for his sake he performs tomorrow if he plays.
If not, it's more fuel to this debate:
http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/soccer/international/the-frustratingly-rare-brilliance-of-ireland-s-aiden-mcgeady-1.2247306

Adamocovic

whiskeyman wrote: »

Just heard on the radio that McGeady is a doubt for tomorrow.
MON saying he's still 'sore', but no real details?
Is this just mindgames?
Oh... saw elsewhere possible hamstring trouble.
I hope for his sake he performs tomorrow if he plays.
If not, it's more fuel to this debate:
http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/soccer/international/the-frustratingly-rare-brilliance-of-ireland-s-aiden-mcgeady-1.2247306

I don't know if it's a bad thing or a good thing if he doesn't play, sometimes he can produce lovely stuff and other times I get so frustrated watching him doing fakes and stepovers I find myself shouting for him to just cross the ball!

Pighead

doncarlos wrote: »

I'm absolutely baffled with some of the viewpoints on here. We were second seeds in this group and people are actually willing to accept us finishing fourth?

Ahhhh sure it's grand we tried our best......

That could be countered by saying we are the fourth best team in the group according to the world rankings therefore anything better than fourth will be a good achievement. We're 60th in the world compared to Germany (1), Scotland (28) and Poland (32).

Basically this weekend's game is make or break for O'Neill. Win it and he'll have convinced many people that he is indeed the right man for the job. Lose and most will want him sacked. Draw and things will stay pretty much as they are now with a 50/50 spread as to who wants him to stay/go. Stating the obvious but this weekend's game is huge for O'Neill.

Adamocovic

Would love to see Arter given a run (wont start I know).

Only saw highlights on the Football League shows after the MOTD, I know different level of opposition but he might be the creativeness we need

doncarlos

Adamocovic wrote: »

I have not made the same point at all, I am saying you could at least wait until the campaign is over to call for the mans head, not until the Scottish game is over but until the actual qualification group stages have been completed.

What's the point in giving him a few dead rubber games. Get the new man in and give him a chance to build for world cup qualifying.

Adamocovic wrote: »

Edit: I also think there are people here who have had their minds set on him going since his first day in charge and win or lose against Scotland will call for him to go anyway.

Some don't rate him as a manager but if he can somehow drag us to qualify I doubt anybody will be calling for his head.

Godot.

Adamocovic wrote: »

Would love to see Arter given a run (wont start I know).

Only saw highlights on the Football League shows after the MOTD, I know different level of opposition but he might be the creativeness we need

Out of squad due to injury

LuckyLloyd

Adamocovic wrote: »

Would love to see Arter given a run (wont start I know).

Only saw highlights on the Football League shows after the MOTD, I know different level of opposition but he might be the creativeness we need

Saturday is going to be a hard physical battle played at a frenetic pace and intensity. We need battle hardened players with experience who are going to get stuck in, kick them around and use the passion of the crowd to force the issue.

McGeady is enough in terms of lightweight players for the day that's in it imo.

Adamocovic

doncarlos wrote: »

What's the point in giving him a few dead rubber games. Get the new man in and give him a chance to build for world cup qualifying.



Some don't rate him as a manager but if he can somehow drag us to qualify I doubt anybody will be calling for his head.

This is really going in circles, ok you don't think he's the man for the job I think he's the best we can get at the moment and is doing a decent job.

Personally I think bringing in a new manager and complete rebuild would do more bad than good at the moment. But again that's my view and you clearly disagree.

Hopefully we end up qualifying and there wont be anymore need for this sort of talk for a while.

Adamocovic

Godot. wrote: »

Out of squad due to injury

Well that settles that, thanks

SteelyDanJalapeno

Arter was very poor against England anyway when he came on, gave the ball to the opposition just as much as he did to the rest of the team.

We need McCleans bit of determination tomorrow, there's not too many that will show his fight for the team.

adaminho

doncarlos wrote: »

What's the point in giving him a few dead rubber games. Get the new man in and give him a chance to build for world cup qualifying.

And what if the new man lost those games? would you want him sacked for having a worse competitive record than O'Neill? What happens if we lose the weekend and O'Neill decides to change the style of play/system and improves over the last few games, should he not be allowed to carry that forward?

doncarlos

Pighead wrote: »

That could be countered by saying we are the fourth best team in the group according to the world rankings therefore anything better than fourth will be a good achievement. We're 60th in the world compared to Germany (1), Scotland (28) and Poland (32).

Those rankings are rubbish and not an accurate reflection of a team's ability. Playing the right/wrong teams in friendlies have a massive impact. Brazil have dropped to fifth as they play weak touring teams for financial gain. Weren't they down to 18th recently?

Teams ranked higher than Ireland;

38 Cape Verde Islands
44 Northern Ireland
50 Equatorial Guinea
51 Albania
54 Panama

doncarlos

Adamocovic wrote: »

Hopefully we end up qualifying and there wont be anymore need for this sort of talk for a while.

I'll be delighted if we do and will more than welcome the "I told you so's"

LuckyLloyd

doncarlos wrote: »

Those rankings are rubbish and not an accurate reflection of a team's ability. Playing the right/wrong teams in friendlies have a massive impact. Brazil have dropped to fifth as they play weak touring teams for financial gain. Weren't they down to 18th recently?

Teams ranked higher than Ireland;

38 Cape Verde Islands
44 Northern Ireland
50 Equatorial Guinea
51 Albania
54 Panama

They're not a perfectly accurate metric, but as a general gauge they do okay. It's no coincidence that our worst run of competitive form since 2007 followed by a bunch of poor friendly results saw us with our worst ranking since 2008. Ultimately while there are some exceptions and outliers, the rankings favour teams winning lots of games.

Adamocovic

doncarlos wrote: »

I'll be delighted if we do and will more than welcome the "I told you so's"

Ha I wouldn't need a "I told you so" a trip to France for the holidays would be more than enough satisfaction for me :pac:

Just out of interest does anyone know the full injury list for tomorrow? What players are ruled out and which are doubtful?

doncarlos

adaminho wrote: »

And what if the new man lost those games? would you want him sacked for having a worse competitive record than O'Neill? What happens if we lose the weekend and O'Neill decides to change the style of play/system and improves over the last few games, should he not be allowed to carry that forward?

Ah here, you could use that as any excuse to keep any manager. What if we had of kept Trap and he stumbled on to some super tactic that allowed Robbie Keane to score 10 goals in every match.

Ferris_Bueller

Adamocovic wrote: »

So if we are to look at rankings:

Germany- World Champion- Ranking- 1st
Scotland- 28th
Poland- 32nd
Ireland- 60th

So far we are three points off the top as I have stated before. Hardly panic stations just yet.

5 proffessional games into his coaching career here and 3 points off top with a draw against the world champions away and a draw against Poland (top of the group).

To be calling for him to get the sack before this qualification is even over is baffling to me.

I think you're placing too much emphasis on the world rankings. Teams like Iran, Equatorial Guinea, Cape Verde are all ahead of us in the top 50, the rankings aren't necessarily a fair reflection on how good a team is.

Realistically I think this is a fair group to assess the management in. There are three teams who are roughly evenly matched in Ireland, Poland and Scotland, if we finished second that would be a huge success, if we finished third it would be a success and if we finish 4th or lower it would be a failure.

If we lost tomorrow we could and probably will give him until the end of the campaign, but the matches are essentially pointless.

Edit: doncarlos is basically making the same points as me above. For the record I am in support of Martin O'Neill, but tomorrow is make or break. If he wins I will be singing his praises, if he loses I will want him gone. He has got himself into a situation where it all comes down to this.

briany

adaminho wrote: »

And what if the new man lost those games? would you want him sacked for having a worse competitive record than O'Neill? What happens if we lose the weekend and O'Neill decides to change the style of play/system and improves over the last few games, should he not be allowed to carry that forward?

It's kind of funny seeing people still buy into the notion of, 'if we only had the right manager....'. Two decorated managers have come along and made broadly the same assessment - that there is a stifling timidity in the Irish game and not a whole lot of creative nous. It's a chicken and the egg issue - some people think that the Irish team plays dodgy football because they're tied into a backward system by the manager. Some think they're in that system because the manager has decided anything more adventurous would see his players exposed. How many managers would have to come along before it's decided that the manager only matters so much?

Adamocovic

Ferris_Bueller wrote: »

I think you're placing too much emphasis on the world rankings. Teams like Iran, Equatorial Guinea, Cape Verde are all ahead of us in the top 50, the rankings aren't necessarily a fair reflection on how good a team is.

Realistically I think this is a fair group to assess the management in. There are three teams who are roughly evenly matched in Ireland, Poland and Scotland, if we finished second that would be a huge success, if we finished third it would be a success and if we finish 4th or lower it would be a failure.

If we lost tomorrow we could and probably will give him until the end of the campaign, but the matches are essentially pointless.

Edit: doncarlos is basically making the same points as me above. For the record I am in support of Martin O'Neill, but tomorrow is make or break. If he wins I will be singing his praises, if he loses I will want him gone. He has got himself into a situation where it all comes down to this.

I brought rankings involved as seeds were mentioned and when using statistics rankings are one of the few ways of comparing.

But I've said all I want really about the matter and its just down to opinions really.

If we do lose tomorrow I fear for what the thread will turn into more so the faith of our team :pac::pac:

EDIT; And I do agree rankings really depend on who you play, a win against a team ranked a bit ahead of you brings more than a draw with a top team, but theyre one of the few things we have to go by

Pighead

doncarlos wrote: »

Those rankings are rubbish and not an accurate reflection of a team's ability. Playing the right/wrong teams in friendlies have a massive impact. Brazil have dropped to fifth as they play weak touring teams for financial gain. Weren't they down to 18th recently?

Teams ranked higher than Ireland;

38 Cape Verde Islands
44 Northern Ireland
50 Equatorial Guinea
51 Albania
54 Panama

You're using the seedings to claim that Ireland are second best in the group which I also think is rubbish. We're only second seeds mainly due to results achieved four years ago. I think most people would agree that Poland are a better team than Ireland. Scotland and Wales are fourth seeds and at best we are equal with those two so I wouldn't put too much stock in the seedings.

TheCitizen

doncarlos wrote: »

You're obviously a Celtic fan?

Yes.

How does that change any objective analysis of MON's record in Europe with Celtic? Where he came in and made them a respectable force in Europe again for the first time in 20 years or thereabouts.

adaminho

doncarlos wrote: »

Ah here, you could use that as any excuse to keep any manager. What if we had of kept Trap and he stumbled on to some super tactic that allowed Robbie Keane to score 10 goals in every match.

But he's had 5 competitive games Trap had 2 and 3/4 qualifying campaigns. Martin O'Neill is still learning at this level.

briany wrote: »

It's kind of funny seeing people still buy into the notion of, 'if we only had the right manager....'. Two decorated managers have come along and made broadly the same assessment - that there is a stifling timidity in the Irish game and not a whole lot of creative nous. It's a chicken and the egg issue - some people think that the Irish team plays dodgy football because they're tied into a backward system by the manager. Some think they're in that system because the manager has decided anything more adventurous would see his players exposed. How many managers would have to come along before it's decided that the manager only matters so much?

So why sack the manager after 6 games?

doncarlos

Pighead wrote: »

You're using the seedings to claim that Ireland are second best in the group which I also think is rubbish. We're only second seeds mainly due to results achieved four years ago. I think most people would agree that Poland are a better team than Ireland. Scotland and Wales are fourth seeds and at best we are equal with those two so I wouldn't put too much stock in the seedings.

I used the seedings as point that it gives us the best chance to qualify if we have two lower seeds in our group. It will be different kettle of fish if we end up being fourth seeds in the next qualifiers.

I think our players are as good as Poland's and better than both Wales and Scotland. It's performances on the pitch that matter though.

doncarlos

TheCitizen wrote: »

Yes.

How does that change any objective analysis of MON's record in Europe with Celtic? Where he came in and made them a respectable force in Europe again for the first time in 20 years or thereabouts.

Because it is not objective. It is completely biased by your support of Celtic.

doncarlos

adaminho wrote: »

But he's had 5 competitive games Trap had 2 and 3/4 qualifying campaigns. Martin O'Neill is still learning at this level.

So you're happy to allow somebody to learn on the job.
That you would even suggest that he is still learning at this level proves my point that he wasn't/isn't up to international standard.

cson

doncarlos wrote: »

I think our players are as good as Poland's and better than both Wales and Scotland. It's performances on the pitch that matter though.

You could argue we're evenly matched with Scotland. Wales and Poland have far better players than ours and more importantly, they each have a player that'll get you a result from nothing, Bale & Lewandowski respectively. We haven't had a World Class player since probably Roy. You'd make a case for Robbie & Duff back in the day.

Banjaxed82

If we lose on Saturday, it's primed for O'Neill to leave.

Given it's the summer, he'll probably make tracks for some championship team, while following Mick McCarthy's failure to get promotion with Ipswich, he'll skip out of there and he'll be installed as new Ireland manager by end of the Summer.

adaminho

doncarlos wrote: »

So you're happy to allow somebody to learn on the job.
That you would even suggest that he is still learning at this level proves my point that he wasn't/isn't up to international standard.

It takes time to adjust to international management, working with players for 3 days every 4/5 months as opposed to every week. Who would you suggest takes over?

TheCitizen

doncarlos wrote: »

Because it is not objective. It is completely biased by your support of Celtic.

No it's not. It's a fact that Celtic failed to make it past Christmas for 20 years prior to MON's arrival.

blinding

adaminho wrote: »

It takes time to adjust to international management, working with players for 3 days every 4/5 months as opposed to every week. Who would you suggest takes over?

I believe that unless a manager has been an absolute disaster that they deserve two campaigns.

Perhaps O Neill will not want a second Campaign.

doncarlos

TheCitizen wrote: »

No it's not. It's a fact that Celtic failed to make it past Christmas for 20 years prior to MON's arrival.

Ok Ok I get it, he got them into knockout stages. So by that barometer would any manager that got a side to the knockout stages be good enough to manage Ireland? You seem to have this idea in your head that because O'Neill did a good job with Celtic he should be good enough for Ireland

doncarlos

blinding wrote: »

I believe that unless a manager has been an absolute disaster that they deserve two campaigns.

Would finishing fourth not be an absolute disaster?

listermint

doncarlos wrote: »

Ok Ok I get it, he got them into knockout stages. So by that barometer would any manager that got a side to the knockout stages be good enough to manage Ireland? You seem to have this idea in your head that because O'Neill did a good job with Celtic he should be good enough for Ireland

Who is it you are actually looking for?


With all this O Neill hate, who do you want to 'bring the standard that you expect' ...

blinding

doncarlos wrote: »

Would finishing fourth not be an absolute disaster?

It depends on what kind of Fourth.

This is a tough group. It could be a fighting fourth.

When we have an average Team we have to be realistic.

This is the best the Scots have been for a long Time . Germany= Enough said.

Poland have a rich football heritage and its a bit over estimating this Irish Team just to roll them over easily.

We were unlucky to get such a tough Group. On the Up side Germany are a nice little Earner.

doncarlos

adaminho wrote: »

It takes time to adjust to international management, working with players for 3 days every 4/5 months as opposed to every week. Who would you suggest takes over?

Impossible to say unless we know what the budget is. The FAI are €35m in debt and maybe O'Brien isn't willing to sub another manager's wages.

I think Mick McCarthy would be a good shout. Did a decent job last time and has even more experience now. Would like to see Brian Kerr back in some role also. His knowledge of the game is phenomenal and would be an asset to any manager.

Banjaxed82

blinding wrote: »

I believe that unless a manager has been an absolute disaster that they deserve two campaigns.

Perhaps O Neill will not want a second Campaign.

Nail on the head.

No meaningful game til September 2016? Fcuk this, says he. I'm going back to club football...

TheCitizen

doncarlos wrote: »

Ok Ok I get it, he got them into knockout stages. So by that barometer would any manager that got a side to the knockout stages be good enough to manage Ireland? You seem to have this idea in your head that because O'Neill did a good job with Celtic he should be good enough for Ireland

He had success at other clubs as well. He was definitely good enough to be offered the job as manager of the Ireland team, he was far and away the best candidate in the frame for the job after Trap left. I'm confident he'll prove to be a success and we'll qualify.

doncarlos

blinding wrote: »

It depends on what kind of Fourth.

This is a tough group. It could be a fighting fourth.

When we have an average Team we have to be realistic.

This is the best the Scots have been for a long Time . Germany= Enough said.

Poland have a rich football heritage and its a bit over estimating this Irish Team just to roll them over easily.

We were unlucky to get such a tough Group. On the Up side Germany are a nice little Earner.

That really is pathetic. How far have we sunk that finishing fourth in a qualifying campaign is acceptable to some people.
When the fixtures came out, most people were aiming for second or third at worst. Now people are happy with fourth. Maybe we should just give up football altogether.

doncarlos

TheCitizen wrote: »

He had success at other clubs as well. He was definitely good enough to be offered the job as manager of the Ireland team, he was far and away the best candidate in the frame for the job after Trap left.

Have you a list of all candidates? All I remember was some speculation from the media.

TheCitizen wrote: »

I'm confident he'll prove to be a success and we'll qualify.

I can't see it but I really hope you're right.