irish people criticizing irish americans

stoneill

I'm Irish - but right now wishing I was American.

Arianna_26

stoneill wrote: »

I'm Irish - but right now wishing I was American.

Why?

OPENROAD

Dionysus wrote: »

It seems like some people in Irish society, particularly in working class Dublin, can have a connection with a British city that none of their known family have come from and support for that city's soccer team can become a central part in the identity of these Irish people. I find that much stranger than somebody whose family left Ireland in the 1850s, having been here since before history was recorded, saying they're Irish. I don't see anything but positivity in such a self-definition, not least for the Irish economy (which appears to be the watermark of whether something is worth doing these days).

The Irish diaspora is a huge part of Irish history and identity. Having ten million people beyond Ireland claiming they're "Irish" is a better situation for Ireland than nobody claiming it. It seems very mean spirited and self righteous to deny somebody a right to claim an Irish identity, given what passes for "Irishness" in the minds of many of the same Irish-born people.

And what is wrong with that ? particularly if it is a city that you have a very close affection for and that might be very much a second home for you.

HavingCrack

Dionysus wrote: »

It seems like some people in Irish society, particularly in working class Dublin, can have a connection with a British city that none of their known family have come from and support for that city's soccer team can become a central part in the identity of these Irish people. I find that much stranger than somebody whose family left Ireland in the 1850s, having been here since before history was recorded, saying they're Irish. I don't see anything but positivity in such a self-definition, not least for the Irish economy (which appears to be the watermark of whether something is worth doing these days).

Perhaps I find both concepts equally bizarre because I'm quite a 'rootless' person for want of a better word. I never really felt the need to identify with much to form an identity .

Dionysus wrote: »

The Irish diaspora is a huge part of Irish history and identity. Having ten million people beyond Ireland claiming they're "Irish" is a better situation for Ireland than nobody claiming it. It seems very mean spirited and self righteous to deny somebody a right to claim an Irish identity, given what passes for "Irishness" in the minds of many of the same Irish-born people.

Agreed, no arguments there whatsoever. It's nothing but a positive thing.

HavingCrack

OPENROAD wrote: »

And what is wrong with that ? particularly if it is a city that you have a very close affection for and that might be very much a second home for you.

But the point was if you have 'no connection', whether that be familial or as you pointed out, otherwise. Seeing London or Newcastle as a 'second home' is very different to having no connection to a place at all.

Dionysus

stacexD wrote: »

Didn't say it bothered me. It's annoying when people insist on shoving their family tree in your face but if they want to say they're Irish let them at it. Of course, still doesn't change the fact they're American.

Really, how often does it happen in your world that somebody shoves their family tree in your face?

The "fact" that they're American is probably not a simple "fact" if they claim to be Irish only. There are plenty of Irish born people across the world who have renounced their Irish citizenship and who are now, by their own choice, part of a different identity. I really don't see why people cannot respect the choice and right to people, including Irish-Americans, to do this.

Arianna_26

Dionysus wrote: »

Really, how often does it happen in your world that somebody shoves their family tree in your face?

The "fact" that they're American is probably not a simple "fact" if they claim to be Irish only. There are plenty of Irish born people across the world who have renounced their Irish citizenship and who are now, by their own choice, part of a different identity. I really don't see why people cannot respect the choice and right to people, including Irish-Americans, to do this.

To me, personally, if you were born in a country then you can rationally claim that nationality. If you are going back to my mother, grandmother or great-grandmother belonged to that nation then that's not on.

Bottom line is, to me, if you aren't born in that country, you shouldn't be able to claim nationality.

Dionysus

OPENROAD wrote: »

And what is wrong with that ? particularly if it is a city that you have a very close affection for and that might be very much a second home for you.

But as the people who oppose Irish-Americans identifying as "Irish" would argue, if you're not from that country it is silly to claim to be part of it - in this case to claim that a team in another country is "your" team.

What's sauce for the goose...

amacachi

I don't believe the OP, it's the first time an American started talking about their heritage without using a few dozen fractions adding up to about 3.

Dionysus

Arianna_26 wrote: »

Bottom line is, to me, if you aren't born in that country, you shouldn't be able to claim nationality.

I have a fair slew of nephews and nieces who are born to my brothers and sisters who left here from the late 1980s on. All of the children self-define as Irish. Some are Irish and French, some are Irish and American, and so forth. But nobody can take their right to self-define as Irish away from them. It's a personal choice.

HavingCrack

Arianna_26 wrote: »

Bottom line is, to me, if you aren't born in that country, you shouldn't be able to claim nationality.

I think he was referring to citizenship rather than 'nationality' as you're referring to it. On the subject of citizenship I actually think grandparents are an acceptable cut off point.

Dionysus

Gyalist wrote: »

Now this is one thing that pisses me off. It might make Irish people feel better about themselves but it is patently untrue. That and the other meme that Irish people are loved all over the world.

+ 1. It's infuriatingly conceited.

Arianna_26

HavingCrack wrote: »

I think he was referring to citizenship rather than 'nationality' as you're referring to it. On the subject of citizenship I actually think grandparents are an acceptable cut off point.

Fair point, I may have said nationality but I meant citizenship (My error). What I meant was, I think you should be considered a citizen of whatever country you are born in. I don't think you should be able to claim the nationality of your mother or father as suits you.

OPENROAD

Dionysus wrote: »

But as the people who oppose Irish-Americans identifying as "Irish" would argue, if you're not from that country it is silly to claim to be part of it - in this case to claim that a team in another country is "your" team.

What's sauce for the goose...

I agree fully ...I don't get too hung up on nationality to be honest...if a person feels they have a connection whatever that connection is to Ireland or England...or whatever country good luck to them.

HavingCrack

Dionysus wrote: »

I have a fair slew of nephews and nieces who are born to my brothers and sisters who left here from the late 1980s on. All of the children self-define as Irish. Some are Irish and French, some are Irish and American, and so forth. But nobody can take their right to self-define as Irish away from them. It's a personal choice.

I just find it curious that people feel the need to define themselves as something. As I said before the concept of 'nations' just seems odd to me, I don't feel the need to define myself as anything greater, I'm me and that's enough . Not many people think like that though to be fair.

the_syco

sandmanporto wrote: »

I am pretty sick of this. I am American by birth, and I get pretty frustrated when Irish people tell irish americans they ARE AMERICAN NOT IRISH. I would admit to my scandinavian heritage before my irish! Peace all!

American: I'm an Oirish American
Me: Oh, you're from Ireland?
American: No.
Me: Your parents?
American: No.
Me: Erm, huh?
American: My great great great great great great grandads sister ****ed an Irishman who had a Scottish accent a minute before she died, so you see, I'm part Oirsh...

I know Ireland is great, and America isn't as great, but I always laugh at Americans claiming that some ancestor born 19,000 years ago was Irish, and thus they're an Irish American :rolleyes:

stacexD

Dionysus wrote: »

Really, how often does it happen in your world that somebody shoves their family tree in your face?

The "fact" that they're American is probably not a simple "fact" if they claim to be Irish only. There are plenty of Irish born people across the world who have renounced their Irish citizenship and who are now, by their own choice, part of a different identity. I really don't see why people cannot respect the choice and right to people, including Irish-Americans, to do this.

I don't know why you're arguing with me about it, I have no problem with people claiming to be Irish whether they are or aren't.
The more correct term would be that they have Irish roots instead of that they are Irish, but saying it isn't doing anyone any harm so I don't see what the big deal is.
My argument was that "Irish Americans" approaching you because of your accent is annoying, and when I spent a short time in America it happened to me countless times, ordering in starbucks, calling a taxi, standing around talking, whatever. It's not them claiming to be Irish that annoys me it's the fact that they actually have to stop and tell you about it. I don't mean that in an arrogant way, but why stop a stranger and tell them about your roots?

Desire2

Arianna_26 wrote: »

To me, personally, if you were born in a country then you can rationally claim that nationality. If you are going back to my mother, grandmother or great-grandmother belonged to that nation then that's not on.
Bottom line is, to me, if you aren't born in that country, you shouldn't be able to claim nationality.

Pity poor Dana Rosemary Scallon, born in the six Counties made her Irish and English then later American when she took the Oath,oh but wait when you become an American you have to pledge allegiance to the US above the Nation you were born in, or did she have to?,that never really became clear.
packing her suitcase must be a nightmare!

This nitpicking about a person wishing to consider themselves Irish American or whatever is the seeds of hatred and wars.

LighterGuy

Americans take it too far.
Alot will trace a relative to the early 1800s to being from Ireland ... thus making them Irish?

Its something I cant understand. Its so diluted. Say your great grand parents left Ireland and went to america. They had a boy (your grand father) he later marries a polish woman. They give birth to a boy (your father) he later marries a person with german parents... and then you are born. How in the hell can you claim to be Irish!?!?!?!!

Arianna_26

Desire2 wrote: »

Pity poor Dana Rosemary Scallon, born in the six Counties made her Irish and English then later American when she took the Oath,oh but wait when you become an American you have to pledge allegiance to the US above the Nation you were born in, or did she have to?,that never really became clear.
packing her suitcase must be a nightmare!

This nitpicking about a person wishing to consider themselves Irish American or whatever is the seeds of hatred and wars.

That's a leap you've taken there, besides the fact that I don't give a damn what Dana does, the fact is, in my opinion, the country you are born in should be the country you consider your nation and that you're a citizen of. I don't have any problem with Americans. I have a problem with Americans who decide to become Irish-American when it suits them.

LighterGuy

(:pac: , going on aint i? :P )

While they are the first people to say they're Irish, German, Russian etc. But yet they salute the america flag ... "god bless america" , "I'd die for this country" , "i'm proud to be an american" blah blah blah. But they're Irish too accordingly :rolleyes:

"Well sir, my great-great-great-great-great-great grandfather was from county kil-dare. Im Irish you see"

Desire2

LighterGuy wrote: »

Americans take it too far.
Alot will trace a relative to the early 1800s to being from Ireland ... thus making them Irish?

Its something I cant understand. Its so diluted. Say your great grand parents left Ireland and went to america. They had a boy (your grand father) he later marries a polish woman. They give birth to a boy (your father) he later marries a person with german parents... and then you are born. How in the hell can you claim to be Irish!?!?!?!!

Hi lighterguy,Twelve of my Ancestors from ONE family had to leave for America because of the Famine.
That left two broken hearted parents and one child from a house that had fifteen.
Nine of them never made it back to even visit their parents but found work and food in the US.

Should i deny that they were Irish Americans?

Arianna_26

Desire2 wrote: »

Hi lighterguy,Twelve of my Ancestors from ONE family had to leave for America because of the Famine.
That left two broken hearted parents and one child from a house that had fifteen.
Nine of them never made it back to even visit their parents but found work and food in the US.

Should i deny that they were Irish Americans?

No, of course not, they were born in Ireland but had to leave because of terrible circumstances. But just because you're ancestors were Irish doesn't mean you should claim to be. That's sort of the point that's being made.

Desire2

Arianna_26 wrote: »

No, of course not, they were born in Ireland but had to leave because of terrible circumstances. But just because you're ancestors were Irish doesn't mean you should claim to be. That's sort of the point that's being made.

And i before i lost internet connection was trying to argue,in what way does it hurt anybody on either side of the Atlantic.
really what harm does it do.

Manic Moran

Kiera wrote: »

You werent born here, so you're not Irish. That's like me saying i'm from Tipp cause my Mam is.... Stupidness!

Irish law seems to state otherwise.

I was born in San Francisco, of Irish parentage, I attended primary school in Ireland, I took the Leaving Cert, got my Degree from UCD, and there's this small matter of an Irish passport with my name on it. Oh, and according to Americans, I have an Irish accent.

I'm not Irish?

NTM

LighterGuy

Desire2 wrote: »

Should i deny that they were Irish Americans?

Arianna said it best. It makes them Irish. I agree.
I mean when did the famine end, the 1850s? so that's what 160 years that your family tree had a chance to dilute. You honestly saying that you dont have any Italian, Jewish (or whatever) heritage since the 1850s too?

Arianna_26

Desire2 wrote: »

And i before i lost internet connection was trying to argue,in what way does it hurt anybody on either side of the Atlantic.
really what harm does it do.

I think it's nice if you are proud of your ancestors being from Ireland, that does no harm, but claiming that your ancestry in some way makes you more Irish than the average American is absurd in my eyes. If you were born in America you are American to me.

Desire2

LighterGuy wrote: »

Arianna said it best. It makes them Irish. I agree.
I mean when did the famine end, the 1850s? so that's what 160 years that your family tree had a chance to dilute. You honestly saying that you dont have any Italian, Jewish (or whatever) heritagesince the 1850s too?

I live in Ireland,it is my Ancestors that had to leave.
#my fault,should have made it clearer.

regarding Italian or Jewish blood,i have no record of what my ancestors might have got up to in the sac!

stacexD

Manic Moran wrote: »

Irish law seems to state otherwise.

I was born in San Francisco, of Irish parentage, I attended primary school in Ireland, I took the Leaving Cert, got my Degree from UCD, and there's this small matter of an Irish passport with my name on it. Oh, and according to Americans, I have an Irish accent.

I'm not Irish?

NTM

You were born to parents and actually grew up in Ireland, not born and brought up in america with an Irish person somewhere 5 generations back. If every Irish American applied for an Irish passport how many do you think would get one?

Desire2

Manic Moran wrote: »

Irish law seems to state otherwise.

I was born in San Francisco, of Irish parentage, I attended primary school in Ireland, I took the Leaving Cert, got my Degree from UCD, and there's this small matter of an Irish passport with my name on it. Oh, and according to Americans, I have an Irish accent.

I'm not Irish?

NTM

And to add that you more than most here would know the true cost of petty ways of viewing a Nation and who belongs there,it ends in feuds,bloodshed and wars.

floutingmaxims

EdenHazard wrote: »

irish cant relate to this because they dont no what a multicultaral society is. i

Its not a word. How could we possibly interpret a word which does not exist!?

ArphaRima

An American of Irish descent = Irish American.
I see no issue with this.

I do see why some have an issue with "my great-great-great-great grandfather was Irish" = I'm an Irishman too, just like you. I gues it depends how it's phrased.


Ethnic background is a huge thing in American culture. It defines individuals, families, neighbourhoods and even whole cities. As an immigrant society these ethnic rivalries define what America is today. Even looking at something simple like prohibition and you'll see it was a struggle between Protestants and Catholics, citizens and immigrants, rich and poor, white and coloured.

As a nation with no real ethnic fault lines (because we are 98% Irish Catholic perhaps) we see no value in identifying ourselves along those lines.
Look to the North if you want to see what happens when we do.

Ireland has benefitted hugely from our Irish American relations across the pond. They identify with us, and I dont see why we cant respect that especially when it's their culture that is in deference to ours.
When major cities in the US celebrate St Patrick's day do you not feel anything? I for one feel a pang of pride for those who left our shores under difficult circumstances and succeeded in the new world. And I'm glad they passed on part of what it is to be Irish to their children and grandchildren etc.

ps the Obama/Moneygall connection might be pushing it!

sandmanporto

fluffer wrote: »

An American of Irish descent = Irish American.
I see no issue with this.

I do see why some have an issue with "my great-great-great-great grandfather was Irish" = I'm an Irishman too, just like you. I gues it depends how it's phrased.


Ethnic background is a huge thing in American culture. It defines individuals, families, neighbourhoods and even whole cities. As an immigrant society these ethnic rivalries define what America is today. Even looking at something simple like prohibition and you'll see it was a struggle between Protestants and Catholics, citizens and immigrants, rich and poor, white and coloured.

As a nation with no real ethnic fault lines (because we are 98% Irish Catholic perhaps) we see no value in identifying ourselves along those lines.
Look to the North if you want to see what happens when we do.

Ireland has benefitted hugely from our Irish American relations across the pond. They identify with us, and I dont see why we cant respect that especially when it's their culture that is in deference to ours.
When major cities in the US celebrate St Patrick's day do you not feel anything? I for one feel a pang of pride for those who left our shores under difficult circumstances and succeeded in the new world. And I'm glad they passed on part of what it is to be Irish to their children and grandchildren etc.

ps the Obama/Moneygall connection might be pushing it!

I agree. Look at how irish people feel about polish people. How do irish people feel about irish kids born to polish parents? Are the kids irish or polish irish? You choose. And having irish blood isn't anything to be proud of either. Honest it is not. Why is being irish a great thing? It is not. So you should appreciate americans admiring their ethnicity. German french italian etc but irish wake up. Dont criticize!

sandmanporto

All i know is the nicest looking women in europe are from the continent. Just a point. I dont understand why irish americans are proud to be irish when they have german or scandinavian blood.

PK2008

PK2008 wrote: »

Look at your comment, now back to mine. Now back at your comment now back to mine. Sadly it isn't mine, but if you stopped trolling and started posting legitimate comments it could look like mine. Look down, back up, where are you? You're scrolling through comments, writing the comment your comment could look like. What did you post? Back at mine, it's a reply saying something you want to hear. Look again the reply is now diamonds. Anything is possible when you think before you post

There should be a 'superthanks' icon for posts of this calibre!

Desire2

sandmanporto wrote: »

I agree. Look at how irish people feel about polish people. How do irish people feel about irish kids born to polish parents? Are the kids irish or polish irish? You choose.

Either or both depending on what Polish people want.
It is true that employers exploited Polish workers during the boom.
It is true that some Irish people pass nasty remarks about foreigners.
that is their problem and not one i or many Irish people would subscribe to.

And having irish blood isn't anything to be proud of either. Honest it is not. Why is being irish a great thing?

please don't make me take back what i have said above with sweeping statements like that.

anyway would you not agree that the Poles who moved here for work soon learned to milk the system and form a community of their own?

See the dangers of denying people the identity they feel comfortable with.

i do not see what you are agreeing with as the poster before you said exactly the opposite to what you are saying.

sandmanporto

The irish are different from the british and way different than europeans so why do they mimic americans so much?' identity crisis! Heres a question for irish people would you prefer to be swedish or irish?

sandmanporto

Desire2 wrote: »

sandmanporto wrote: »

I agree. Look ait how irish people feel about polish people. How do irish people feel about irish kids born to polish parents? Are the kids irish or polish irish? You choose.

Either or both depending on what Polish people want.
It is true that employers exploited Polish workers during the boom.
It is true that some Irish people pass nasty remarks about foreigners.
that is their problem and not one i or many Irish people would subscribe to.

And having irish blood isn't anything to be proud of either. Honest it is not. Why is being irish a great thing?

please don't make me take back what i have said above with sweeping statements like that.

anyway would you not agree that the Poles who moved here for work soon learned to milk the system and form a community of their own?

See the dangers of denying people the identity they feel comfortable with.

i do not see what you are agreeing with as the poster before you said exactly the opposite to what you are saying.

Well i dont see why its great to have irish blood. I dont see anything in the irish gene pool to be proud of other than they work well.

Desire2

sandmanporto wrote: »

The irish are different from the british and way different than europeans so why do they mimic americans so much?' identity crisis! Heres a question for irish people would you prefer to be swedish or irish?

You wonder why Anti Polish remarks are muttered,if you had given Me the offer of being swedish or Irish or Polish, right now it would not be a tough choice.

Anything but Polish if you are an example of Poles.

sandmanporto

Desire2 wrote: »

sandmanporto wrote: »

The irish are different from the british and way different than europeans so why do they mimic americans so much?' identity crisis! Heres a question for irish people would you prefer to be swedish or irish?

You wonder why Anti Polish remarks are muttered,if you had given Me the offer of being swedish or Irish or Polish, right now it would not be a tough choice.

Anything but Polish if you are an example of Poles.

Im irish swede by blood. American by birth. Go figure

HellboundIRL

If an American wants to claim Irish ancestry, I say fair play to him/her, there's no harm in it and it shows they have an interest in my homeland.

The way some people act, you'd swear it was a blessing to be Irish - we're not half as special as we'd like to think and we shouldn't shít on those who take an interest in us.

The same old idiotic anti-American attitudes again and again.

Desire2

sandmanporto wrote: »

Go figure

I will make a stab at it: You are on drugs,totally deranged and if i could call you the R word,i would.

tonycascarino

HellboundIRL wrote: »

The way some people act, you'd swear it was a blessing to be Irish - we're not half as special as we'd like to think and we shouldn't shít on those who take an interest in us.

Exactly

sandmanporto

HellboundIRL wrote: »

If an American wants to claim Irish ancestry, I say fair play to him/her, there's no harm in it and it shows they have an interest in my homeland.

The way some people act, you'd swear it was a blessing to be Irish - we're not half as special as we'd like to think and we shouldn't shít on those who take an interest in us.

The same old idiotic anti-American attitudes again and again.

I like your attitude. Yes i dont know why americans with irish blood love to say they are irish. And i think irish people should feel complimented when an american is proud of having irish heritage because be honest, whats to proud of?

sandmanporto

Desire2 wrote: »

sandmanporto wrote: »

Go figure

I will make a stab at it: You are on drugs,totally deranged and if i could call you the R word,i would.

Uh huh. Make your point without getting personal

Desire2

sandmanporto wrote: »

Uh huh. Make your point without getting personal

If you had made any point that made sense i would continue. i think you know what i mean by the R word.

Personal? you just attacked everybody in Ireland who is Irish,pity as it had been enjoyable until your first post,alas you have dragged it into the gutter.

Mark Tapley

Manic Moran wrote: »

Irish law seems to state otherwise.

I was born in San Francisco, of Irish parentage, I attended primary school in Ireland, I took the Leaving Cert, got my Degree from UCD, and there's this small matter of an Irish passport with my name on it. Oh, and according to Americans, I have an Irish accent.

I'm not Irish?

NTM

I was born in London ,of Irish parentage, I attended primary school in ireland, I took the Leaving Cert, got a job in Ireland . I hold a British passport. The English think I have an Irish accent , the Irish think i have an English accent .I was born in England and consider myself English , I am also proud of my Irish connection.

tonycascarino

Mark Tapley wrote: »

I was born in London ,of Irish parentage, I attended primary school in ireland, I took the Leaving Cert, got a job in Ireland . I hold a British passport. The English think I have an Irish accent , the Irish think i have an English accent .I was born in England and consider myself English , I am also proud of my Irish connection.

You have no English blood yet consider yourself English? Fair enough

Mark Tapley

tonycascarino wrote: »

You have no English blood yet consider yourself English?

Sorry I should have been clearer . My mother was English but her mother was Irish, I dont know what this means in terms of "blood". I just think that if you are born in a country that is your nationality.

SharpshooterTom

Mark Tapley wrote: »

Sorry I should have been clearer . My mother was English but her mother was Irish, I dont know what this means in terms of "blood". I just think that if you are born in a country that is your nationality.

Even if you've never lived in that country??

My dad was born in Toronto in 1958, moved back to Ireland in christmas 1960, went to primary school in louth, leaving cert in louth, UCD medicine degree etc. The only time he went back to Canada was in 1978 when he was a student for TWO WEEKS.

So the only time in the past 51 years my dads been to Canada was a holiday in 1978 at the age of 20. He doesn't know anything about Canada other than he was just born there, infact he couldn't even name the street he lived in (we had to look it up). He doesn't actually know the names of any streets in Toronto or Canada for that matter.

He does however know the Irish national anthem in Irish virtually back to front, got an A in his leaving cert for Irish back in 1976 and is still fluent in Irish to this day.

But my dad's Canadian?? You see this is how stupid this flaw in your argument is?? Some people who have known my dad for over 20 years don't even know my Dad's born in Canada. Oh and in his 53 years of life he's only ever held a Irish passport.