Why do we put children though school?

ClocksForward

Looking back over the years wasted in secondary education in this country, it got me thinkling..why does society feel the need to push children through this sweat shop of indoctrination in lieu of giving the little bastards a library card and a mentor?

I can't speak for anybody else, but I've had to unlearn most of the rubbish "taught" in school. Teach the kid the basics, then leave him to his own devices I say. Children who are going to make something of themselves are going to do it regardless.

We don't need this excuse of a system to be perpetuated at large. I say remove the need for these "teachers" to stroke their ego by teaching children garbage like "CSPE" or how to cook a ****ing slice of toast. If you want to learn calculus, there are no shortage of books. Secondary education has more in common with a circus act imo.

Autodidactism for all:)

abouttobebanned

I think you just had a bad experience. We learn so much more than just facts and figures in secondary school. There's a social education that you won't get from a "library card and a mentor"

ClocksForward

abouttobebanned wrote: »

I think you just had a bad experience. We learn so much more than just facts and figures in secondary school. There's a social education that you won't get from a "library card and a mentor"

Yup Maybe I don't think like most, in that I just cannot learn properly without assimilating the knowledge myself through self study. I ain't trolling when I say I honestly can't learn something well unless there is absolute silence.

Somehow I don't think my style of learning applies to the vast majority of the population? Or maybe I am wrong:cool:

strobe

Creches cost a fortune. It's illegal to chain kids to radiators ('cause of the PC brigade :mad: )

School is free and legal, basically.

10green bottles

To learn to spell

Badly Drunk Boy

ClocksForward wrote: »

I can't speak for anybody else, but I've had to unlearn most of the rubbish "taught" in school. Teach the kid the basics, then leave him to his own devices I say. Children who are going to make something of themselves are going to do it regardless.

Leave kids to their own devices and they'll do just that. "Will I teach myself fractions or French or simultaneous equations, or will I go on Facebook or watch the telly?" Hmmm...

Also, does everybody get their own mentor and who pays for them?

Chuck Stone

There is something sinister about forcing all 5-year-olds to go to big building to learn stuff on threat that their parents will be prosecuted if they don't comply.

Dotrel

They're state-run child-minding services. Any knowledge gained whilst there is entirely incidental.

Gee Bag

ClocksForward wrote: »

Looking back over the years wasted in secondary education in this country, it got me thinkling..why does society feel the need to push children through this sweat shop of indoctrination in lieu of giving the little bastards a library card and a mentor?

I can't speak for anybody else, but I've had to unlearn most of the rubbish "taught" in school. Teach the kid the basics, then leave him to his own devices I say. Children who are going to make something of themselves are going to do it regardless.

We don't need this excuse of a system to be perpetuated at large. I say remove the need for these "teachers" to stroke their ego by teaching children garbage like "CSPE" or how to cook a ****ing slice of toast. If you want to learn calculus, there are no shortage of books. Secondary education has more in common with a circus act imo.

Autodidactism for all:)

Howya Pol Pot, glad to hear your alive and well.

ClocksForward

ClocksForward wrote: »

I say remove the need for these "teachers" to stroke their ego by teaching children garbage like "CSPE" or how to cook a ****ing slice of toast.)

You cook toast?

El_Dangeroso

Because school is not about learning, it's about getting kids used to the mindless drudgery and routine of a 9-5 job. It's social compliance training.

Think about it, if you were given the freedom to learn about things you were truly interested in a non-structured environment for the first 17 years of your life and then told that you now had to sit down and be dictated to in a hierarchical fashion it would come as a bit of a shock. Can't have people thinking that there is a nicer way to live, what would happen to productivity in a nation full of independent thinkers?

Abi

ClocksForward wrote: »

Looking back over the years wasted in secondary education in this country, it got me thinkling..why does society feel the need to push children through this sweat shop of indoctrination in lieu of giving the little bastards a library card and a mentor?

I can't speak for anybody else, but I've had to unlearn most of the rubbish "taught" in school. Teach the kid the basics, then leave him to his own devices I say. Children who are going to make something of themselves are going to do it regardless.

We don't need this excuse of a system to be perpetuated at large. I say remove the need for these "teachers" to stroke their ego by teaching children garbage like "CSPE" or how to cook a ****ing slice of toast. If you want to learn calculus, there are no shortage of books. Secondary education has more in common with a circus act imo.

Autodidactism for all:)

This doesn't happen often, but I actually don't know what to say to all that. So much stupidity in one post.

WalterMitty

The way things are going kids would be better off staying at home and learning off internet after age of say 15 or younger if child is mature. They can still sit exams before college. You can view some of worlds best teachers on youtube for free teaching things like maths and science that we badly need students to do in this country.
I found secondary school after junior cert just rote learning, boring religon and irish classses for several hours a week,everyone working out what would come up on exam rather than having any intellectual curiosity.
Even in university the standard of teaching was rarely excellent and you could do well without ever attending the university and just getting notes from your mates in the class. I can watch lectures online now for free from the best universities in world although ya cant get a degree without paying some university to award it to ya.

chughes

strobe wrote: »

School is free and legal, basically.

It's free except for the books, uniforms, and voluntary contributions.

Fbjm

Without secondary school, no one would go to university.
Without university, no one would get degrees.
Without degrees, no one would get jobs.
Without jobs, no one would be working in mental institutions, for the mentally unfit.
Without mental institutions for the mentally unfit, people like you would be roaming the streets, creating nonsensical threads on sites like boards and generally being a nuisance.

Chuck Stone

El_Dangeroso wrote: »

Because school is not about learning, it's about getting kids used to the mindless drudgery and routine of a 9-5 job. It's social compliance training.

Hmmm..

Reamer Fanny

ClocksForward wrote: »

Looking back over the years wasted in secondary education in this country, it got me thinkling..why does society feel the need to push children through this sweat shop of indoctrination in lieu of giving the little bastards a library card and a mentor?

I can't speak for anybody else, but I've had to unlearn most of the rubbish "taught" in school. Teach the kid the basics, then leave him to his own devices I say. Children who are going to make something of themselves are going to do it regardless.

We don't need this excuse of a system to be perpetuated at large. I say remove the need for these "teachers" to stroke their ego by teaching children garbage like "CSPE" or how to cook a ****ing slice of toast. If you want to learn calculus, there are no shortage of books. Secondary education has more in common with a circus act imo.

Autodidactism for all:)

This is why

Teyla Emmagan

Thank God for schools, there would be horrible little teenagers everywhere without them.

Biggins

ClocksForward wrote: »

Looking back over the years wasted in secondary education in this country, it got me thinkling..why does society feel the need to push children through this sweat shop of indoctrination in lieu of giving the little bastards a library card and a mentor?

I can't speak for anybody else, but I've had to unlearn most of the rubbish "taught" in school. Teach the kid the basics, then leave him to his own devices I say. Children who are going to make something of themselves are going to do it regardless.

We don't need this excuse of a system to be perpetuated at large. I say remove the need for these "teachers" to stroke their ego by teaching children garbage like "CSPE" or how to cook a ****ing slice of toast. If you want to learn calculus, there are no shortage of books. Secondary education has more in common with a circus act imo.

Autodidactism for all:)

*sigh*

One question OP: How the fcuk is one supposed to read from book is one is not taught at school how to read?
A teacher? A mentor? etc? ...and where did they learn? Was it a school?

Jeasus H Christ!

Chuck Stone

What intrigues me about these types of questions is the vitriol they seem to engender in many people who respond.

Most of the replies are strawmanning and insulting the OP.

Way to go lads.

Logical Fallacy

ClocksForward wrote: »

Looking back over the years wasted in secondary education in this country, it got me thinkling..why does society feel the need to push children through this sweat shop of indoctrination in lieu of giving the little bastards a library card and a mentor?

I can't speak for anybody else, but I've had to unlearn most of the rubbish "taught" in school. Teach the kid the basics, then leave him to his own devices I say. Children who are going to make something of themselves are going to do it regardless.

We don't need this excuse of a system to be perpetuated at large. I say remove the need for these "teachers" to stroke their ego by teaching children garbage like "CSPE" or how to cook a ****ing slice of toast. If you want to learn calculus, there are no shortage of books. Secondary education has more in common with a circus act imo.

Autodidactism for all:)

I assume you averaged C's and the problem is the system, not you?:D

Chuck Stone

Biggins wrote: »

*sigh*

One question OP: How the fcuk is one supposed to read from book is one is not taught at school how to read?
A teacher? A mentor? etc? ...and where did they learn? Was it a school?

Jeasus H Christ!

If reading and writing was the goal of school kids would be finished school at about 7 or 8 years old.

Logical Fallacy

Chuck Stone wrote: »

If reading and writing was the goal of school kids would be finished school at about 7 or 8 years old.

Ah come on Chuck, surely you agree that you have a far higher level of literacy at the end of your schooling than you do at 7 or 8?

iguana

Chuck Stone wrote: »

There is something sinister about forcing all 5-year-olds to go to big building to learn stuff on threat that their parents will be prosecuted if they don't comply.

There is absolutely no legal requirement to send your children to school. All a parent is legally required to do is ensure their children reach a minimum standard of learning. How the children reach that point is entirely the choice of the parent. Most people do this by sending their children to school because it is both the easiest way and the social norm.

Nolanger

abouttobebanned wrote: »

I think you just had a bad experience. We learn so much more than just facts and figures in secondary school. There's a social education that you won't get from a "library card and a mentor"

Yeh, think like everyone else instead of for yourself, expect a job instead of making one, and think you're a failure because you missed an A in Geography.

Chuck Stone

Logical Fallacy wrote: »

Ah come on Chuck, surely you agree that you have a far higher level of literacy at the end of your schooling than you do at 7 or 8?

Not because of school. English was a complete and utter waste of my time after the age of about 7 or 8.

My father read a lot to us as children and I read a lot myself.

Chuck Stone

iguana wrote: »

All a parent is legally required to do is ensure their children reach a minimum standard of learning.

What are these standards?

Pherekydes

Fbjm wrote: »

Without degrees, no one would get jobs.

/puts hand up timidly.

I got a job without a degree.

Logical Fallacy

Chuck Stone wrote: »

Not because of school. English was a complete and utter waste of my time after the age of about 7 or 8.

My father read a lot to us as children and I read a lot myself.

Flawed logic Chuck, you still read daily in school, a variety of subjects that covered a very rich lexicon and it had an affect on your level of literacy.

To say otherwise is very disingenuous.

Nolanger

Fbjm wrote: »

Without degrees, no one would get jobs.

in Australia.

MegaWattKungFu

ClocksForward wrote: »

Looking back over the years wasted in secondary education in this country, it got me thinkling..why does society feel the need to push children through this sweat shop of indoctrination in lieu of giving the little bastards a library card and a mentor?

I can't speak for anybody else, but I've had to unlearn most of the rubbish "taught" in school. Teach the kid the basics, then leave him to his own devices I say. Children who are going to make something of themselves are going to do it regardless.

We don't need this excuse of a system to be perpetuated at large. I say remove the need for these "teachers" to stroke their ego by teaching children garbage like "CSPE" or how to cook a ****ing slice of toast. If you want to learn calculus, there are no shortage of books. Secondary education has more in common with a circus act imo.

Autodidactism for all:)

This could be an interesting discussion but after hours isn't the place for it.

Biggins

Chuck Stone wrote: »

If reading and writing was the goal of school kids would be finished school at about 7 or 8 years old.

Logical Fallacy wrote: »

Ah come on Chuck, surely you agree that you have a far higher level of literacy at the end of your schooling than you do at 7 or 8?

Logical Fallacy correctly said it for me.

I was an exception to most. I was reading an older sisters secondary sixth year books at seven years of age and books like Lord of the Rings.
On average though, not only is basic reading taught, but the ability to read between the lines in later years.
This alone helps to increase perception skills and analytical abilities in many other areas of education already learned and yet to come.
...Becoming a form of street-wise in rough terms.

You can't teach all that to someone up to 7/8 and then send them packing "Right, your ready for the world!"

Abi

There's more to it than that. School not only educates the child, but broadens it's social circle and social skills. Not sending a child to school just does not compute to me.

Irish Guitarist

Apart from reading and writing I can't remember anything I learned from school except that kids like to make other kids lives a misery and that teachers like to ridicule children in front of their classmates.

I was always told that school was supposed to "prepare me for life". I suppose it did in a way. It taught me that most people are fuckers.

kylith

School teaches you social skills and conformity.

Biggins

Irish Guitarist wrote: »

...It taught me that most people are fuckers.

Unless they have had their bits cut off - I would say so too!
My wife would say I'm one on a regular basis!

Chuck Stone

Logical Fallacy wrote: »

Flawed logic Chuck

Why is it flawed logic?

you still read daily in school, a variety of subjects that covered a very rich lexicon and it had an affect on your level of literacy.

As I said previously I did my own reading at home and my Father read to us as children almost every night. Those factors would have been far more educational as regards English than listening to a teacher droning on about Mr Gradgrind.

School was boring for me (except for History, Geography and Science), I'm mathematically retarded, and yet before the web became ubiquitous I would sit down with a sociological dictionary and read it for hours.

Anyway this isn't about me it's about questioning the Educational system!

Like it or not the world wide web is going to change traditional educational systems enormously.

I was talking to my niece and nephew and trying to explain to them that before the WWW people had to buy the Encyclopedia Britannica to have anywhere near as much access to information. They were truly astonished - and when you think of it it is quite astonishing.

amacachi

Not a chance I'm sending my kids to be taught the same thing for 6 straight years after two years of playing with blocks.

What social interaction is there in school? About an hour in bits and pieces between getting told to shut up.

Logical Fallacy

Chuck Stone wrote: »

Why is it flawed logic?

Because you spent hours and hours a day reading about a vast variety of subjects and are completely unwilling to give it any credit for your level of literacy.

I just think you are letting your dislike for the education system affect your opinion a bit too much.

I find it almost impossible to believe that an intelligent poster such as yourself cannot see how it benefited you.

Nolanger

kylith wrote: »

School teaches you social skills and conformity.

and how to get into college and then whinge because there are no jobs to suit your qualifications and then emigrate.

tempura

Pherekydes wrote: »

/puts hand up timidly.

I got a job without a degree.

Me too.

WalterMitty

Chuck Stone wrote: »

Why is it flawed logic?



As I said previously I did my own reading at home and my Father read to us as children almost every night. Those factors would have been far more educational as regards English than listening to a teacher droning on about Mr Gradgrind.

School was boring for me (except for History, Geography and Science), I'm mathematically retarded, and yet before the web became ubiquitous I would sit down with a sociological dictionary and read it for hours.

Anyway this isn't about me it's about questioning the Educational system!

Like it or not the world wide web is going to change traditional educational systems enormously.

I was talking to my niece and nephew and trying to explain to them that before the WWW people had to buy the Encyclopedia Britannica to have anywhere near as much access to information. They were truly astonished - and when you think of it it is quite astonishing.

Teachers in our primary school (late 80s in Dublin) used to make us raise funds so we could have encyclopedia set for the school but we then never got to use the bloody thing! My parents couldnt afford a set so it was tv every night for me instead of interesting books.

Chuck Stone

Biggins wrote: »

On average though, not only is basic reading taught, but the ability to read between the lines in later years.

Not a chance Biggins. School teaches more about conformity than critical and creative thinking. Don't listen to me - listen to Sir Ken Robinson (Knighted for his services to education).

Ken Robinson says schools kill creativity

You can't teach all that to someone up to 7/8 and then send them packing "Right, your read for the world!"

Ah you're building a strawman there B. Where did I make the argument that that should be the course of action?

orourkeda

ClocksForward wrote: »

Looking back over the years wasted in secondary education in this country, it got me thinkling..why does society feel the need to push children through this sweat shop of indoctrination in lieu of giving the little bastards a library card and a mentor?

I can't speak for anybody else, but I've had to unlearn most of the rubbish "taught" in school. Teach the kid the basics, then leave him to his own devices I say. Children who are going to make something of themselves are going to do it regardless.

We don't need this excuse of a system to be perpetuated at large. I say remove the need for these "teachers" to stroke their ego by teaching children garbage like "CSPE" or how to cook a ****ing slice of toast. If you want to learn calculus, there are no shortage of books. Secondary education has more in common with a circus act imo.

Autodidactism for all:)

So their brains can like think good

Shanotheslayer

Im too drunk for this thread,.

4zn76tysfajdxp

El_Dangeroso wrote: »

Because school is not about learning, it's about getting kids used to the mindless drudgery and routine of a 9-5 job. It's social compliance training.

Think about it, if you were given the freedom to learn about things you were truly interested in a non-structured environment for the first 17 years of your life and then told that you now had to sit down and be dictated to in a hierarchical fashion it would come as a bit of a shock. Can't have people thinking that there is a nicer way to live, what would happen to productivity in a nation full of independent thinkers?

That's right. If children don't learn from an early age that everyone is their boss, everyone must dress and look the same and that every misstep has dire consequences in regards to their future employability, they will live unhappy unfulfilled lives doing what they want to do and following their own selfish persuits.

Irish Guitarist

The biggest waste of time in school was P.E. For me it was forty minutes of sheer misery with thirty odd pupils laughing at me for not being able to kick a football. I know it's supposed to keep children fit but I would have been better off if I had gotten out of school forty minutes early so I could have gotten exercise on my own terms by going for a walk or something.

Then there was music. I see children coming out of school now with guitar and violin cases but it wasn't like that for me. All I can remember is the teacher waffling on about songs I had never heard of. I never even saw a musical instrument in the class. For all I know the teacher may not have had any musical knowledge or ability whatsoever.

Saila

dont you just hate people who think because they view it one way everone else does and should view it that way?. people learn in different ways and have different levels of self discipline and motivation. school works for the majority OP thats why it is there. you are and a few others in this thread are in the minority, Im not saying I am not by the way but the difference is I can see why its needed for the majority.

Biggins

Chuck Stone wrote: »

Not a chance Biggins. School teaches more about conformity than critical and creative thinking. Don't listen to me - listen to Sir Ken Robinson (Knighted for his services to education).

Ken Robinson says schools kill creativity

Thats an OPINION - not a scientific fact!
Meanwhile, the numerous abilities I learned during the latter years of my schooling have stood me good stead! I am assuming many others are in the same 'boat'.
(See that last line - a 7/8 year old would see the word "boat" and just read it as that. Later years of schooling would teach them to actually read it as its meant!)

Its no use learning to read the likes of Emily Dickinson if you can't read between the lines and come to a conclusion of what she was speaking about.
The same methodology applies for Shakespeare and basically any other complex layer writer that is not Jeffrey Archer in style of writing.

Chuck Stone

Logical Fallacy wrote: »

Because you spent hours and hours a day reading about a vast variety of subjects and are completely unwilling to give it any credit for your level of literacy.

Seriously I only took in what interested me. I wouldn't describe myself as being extremely literate tbh! If you were to ask me what an adjective, noun, or pronoun was I'd really struggle with an answer yet my English is a pretty good standard when it needs to be.

I just think you are letting your dislike for the education system affect your opinion a bit too much.

I don't dislike our education system per se - it just irks me when people try to suppress questions about the systems we all take for granted.

I find it almost impossible to believe that an intelligent poster such as yourself cannot see how it benefited you.

Thank you for the kind words but in fairness I have no way of knowing what level of proficiency in any subject I would have achieved with or without school.

I am of the opinion that I would have learned quite a lot by myself after the age of about 8/9 through books - and if I were 8 or 9 now-a-days I would have had the web to sate my knowledge thirst.

Anyhoo, this really isn't about me.

Truley

I find it scary how so many people can't get their head around the concept of raising children outside of a school system. I think it's great that the idea Unschooling and Deschooling are becoming more popular and if I ever had children of my own I would seriously consider doing it.

On the subject of school "socialising" children, I think the Wikipedia article sums it up

Concerns about socialization are often a factor in the decision to unschool. Many unschoolers believe that the conditions common in conventional schools, like age segregation, a low ratio of adults to children, a lack of contact with the community, and a lack of people in professions other than teachers or school administration create an unhealthy social environment.[15] They feel that their children benefit from coming in contact with people of diverse ages and backgrounds in a variety of contexts. They also feel that their children benefit from having some ability to influence what people they encounter, and in what contexts they encounter them.