Office of An Coimisinéir Teanga to be Closed.

cyclopath2001

deise go deo wrote: »

I take it then that you don't actually have the figures? On what then was your claim that it is 'Hugely Expensive' based?

It's common sense that duplicating services in Irish is going to cost a lot of money. It's understandable that the Irish language lobby would be keen to implement these extra costs by stealth over a number of years so that the public is not outraged. Let's not spend any more money on this Fianna Fail Folly until we know how much it will cost?

deise go deo wrote: »

Irish language service provision should be run an the Canadian 'Active offer' model.

Your imagination is running riot if you think that Ireland and Canada are comparable.

cyclopath2001

Sica wrote: »

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/state-pays-836418m-to-translate-reports-into-irish-1924948.html

According to the above it cost €1.8m in 2009. I can't find a more up to date figure.

That's just for report translation. It does not include telephone, written and online services where people demand o transact in Irish even though they have perfect English.

deise go deo

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

It's common sense that duplicating services in Irish is going to cost a lot of money. It's understandable that the Irish language lobby would be keen to implement these extra costs by stealth over a number of years so that the public is not outraged. Let's not spend any more money on this Fianna Fail Folly until we know how much it will cost?

Still no figures though, I suppose opinion and conjecture are just as good.

Your imagination is running riot if you think that Ireland and Canada are comparable.

Where did I say that? I simply said that the services should be provided on the basis of an Active Offer as in the Canadian model, what exactly is wrong with that?

That's just for report translation. It does not include telephone, written and online services where people demand o transact in Irish even though they have perfect English.

Tell me, how much extra does it cost the state for someone to talk on the phone in Irish compared to talking on the phone in English?

Lord TSC

Still no figures though, I suppose opinion and conjecture are just as good.

To be honest, if neither side can provide figures, then neither side should go on about them. Both sides are hurt by an inability to provide them. You're the very one who makes wild statements like "There's plenty of people who speak better Irish than English" but don't have figures to back those statements up either...

Sica

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

You're the very one who makes wild statements like "There's plenty of people who speak better Irish than English" but don't have figures to back those statements up either...

Here's a stab at a figure for this:

According to the 2006 Irish census figures, there are 1.66 million people with some ability to speak Irish in Ireland out of a population of 4.24 million, though only 538,500 use Irish on a daily basis (counting those who use it mainly in the education system), and just over 72,000 use Irish as a daily language outside the education system.
http://www.cso.ie/census/census2006results/volume_9/volume_9_press_release.pdf

The very highest figure for people who speak Irish better than English is 72,000, but tbh even this small figure seems like a bit of a stretch.

Perhaps if each one of those 72,000 made a commitment to buy a Government report published in Irish once a year it would make it justifiable!

cyclopath2001

deise go deo wrote: »

Where did I say that? I simply said that the services should be provided on the basis of an Active Offer as in the Canadian model, what exactly is wrong with that?

The cost justification in Canada would be different to here.

deise go deo wrote: »

Tell me, how much extra does it cost the state for someone to talk on the phone in Irish compared to talking on the phone in English?

It's not as simple as that, especially if the matter under discussion is very technical. There may not be a person who is equally fluent in both languages and who is expert in the matter at hand.

More importantly, if you cannot quantify the cost, it's reckless to proceed. Maybe in the Land of Irish Speaking it's different, but that's how things are in the real world.

It's all about money.

Lord TSC

Even using that figure (and I agree its generous), that works out at about 1.7% of the population.

Even if we say those who use Irish on a daily basis outside of education use it because they feel their Irish is stronger than their English, that's still such a huge, huge minority as to make it crazy to have a seperate office whose aim is to ensure 100% of public documents are translated.

cyclopath2001

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

it crazy to have a seperate office whose aim is to ensure 100% of public documents are translated.

It's more than just documents such as annual reports and leaflets. It's correspondence, phone services, walk-in offices, web sites and online applications. All must provide service in Irish. The Irish Language Commissioner has powers to demand that departments comply and to fine or imprison anyone who does not cooperate.

usernamegoes

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

It's more than just documents such as annual reports and leaflets. It's correspondence, phone services, walk-in offices, web sites and online applications. All must provide service in Irish. The Irish Language Commissioner has powers to demand that departments comply and to fine or imprison anyone who does not cooperate.

And it's not just that they have to be, it's also the way that they are i.e. according to the Act I can see three things wrong with this photo which will require the sign to be replaced.

[EDIT] Hold on four things wrong

http://www.flickr.com/photos/48073612@N04/4418112126/in/photostream/

thebman

Well on costs, there is this:
http://www.finfacts.ie/irelandbusinessnews/publish/article_10005657.shtml

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/government-wastes-83641m-on-translations-into-irish-1990149.html

http://tribune.maithu.com/archive/article/2009/may/17/translating-legal-documents-into-irish-will-cost-3/

Interestingly reveals that a couple of companies probably have a large stake in trying to preserve this business.

Another interesting thing I found with a quick Google was that most people disagree with documents having to be translated into Irish in the below Irish Times poll with 56% of people voting no.
http://www.irishtimes.com/polls/index.cfm?fuseaction=yesnopoll&pollid=9065

As for the number of people that are Irish speakers and have limited English, I very much doubt the numbers are very high at all on this. I'd be surprised if you could find 100 let alone a thousand for the simple fact that few people are going to hire someone that can't talk to the rest of the company and is going to struggle to write emails/letters etc...

So really what is the profile of someone whose main language is Irish and who doesn't speak English to a level that they could read a government document in English?

Godge

The Official Languages Act should be suspended for the next four years because of the financial situation.

During that time, a review of the extent to which the Irish language services already provided were used by the general public should be carried out and the results used to inform the future of the OLA.

I believe that one of the effects of the OLA has been to reduce the supply of qualified Irish teachers to second-level schools as they have all gone into translation instead.

Permabear

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BlaasForRafa

They should get rid of Udaras while they're at it and cease funding TG4. Its time for the extravagant funding of services for a minority language to cease.

Lord TSC

While we're discussing figures, was there info on the census as to how many people classified (off the top of my head) Chinese as their first language? Should we, if the figures are higher (and I have an inkling they would be) fund an office whose role is to force the translations of all documents, road signs, stationary etc into Chinese as well?

cytex

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

That's just for report translation. It does not include telephone, written and online services where people demand o transact in Irish even though they have perfect English.

Why does it matter if the have perfect English. They have a constitutional right to speak Gaeilge . The cominisinéir Teanga office is the only department that you could go to so that this CONSTITUTIONAL right could be enforced . This is not about cost cutting this is not about forcing Gaeilge down your throat this is simply about forcing ENGLISH down the throat of Gaeilge speakers . This makes anybody who wants to converse to the state as Gaeilge a second class citizen as the goverment are saying that it simply is not important. This is simply about getting civil rights for Gaeilge speakers .

usernamegoes

cytex wrote: »

Why does it matter if the have perfect English. They have a constitutional right to speak Gaeilge . The cominisinéir Teanga office is the only department that you could go to so that this CONSTITUTIONAL right could be enforced . This is not about cost cutting this is not about forcing Gaeilge down your throat this is simply about forcing ENGLISH down the throat of Gaeilge speakers . This makes anybody who wants to converse to the state as Gaeilge a second class citizen as the goverment are saying that it simply is not important. This is simply about getting civil rights for Gaeilge speakers .

Which part of the Constitution says this is a Constitutional Right? When you find it please quote the whole of the Article.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

anymore

deise go deo wrote: »

An Coimisinéir Teanga


The Government has announced that it is going to close the Office of An Coimisinéir Teanga and transfer its functions to the Office of the Ombudsman as part of its public sector reform plan.

The problem with this is that the Government announced only a couple of weeks ago a public consultation as part of a review of the Official Languages Act which includes the role and functions of the Office of An Coimisinéir Teanga. It's seams they are asking the public to engage in a consultation on an Office they have already decided to close:rolleyes:


The other problem is that there are no savings to be made. No-one will lose their jobs. If anything, there will be greater expense to the exchequer if they attempt to move the current staff to the Ombudsman's Office in Dublin.

The question has to be asked, How does the Government view the rights of Irish speakers in Ireland.




People have already been protesting against this decision outside the Dáil.

Maybe they think that irish speakers should only have the same rights as the rest of us ? Judging by the photos, if any of these people are paying taxes, they claerly havent being doing so for too long - so I suggest they wait long enough to have made some significant contribution before they start moaning and groaning !

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

anymore

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

Dont think their numbers qualify them for that status yet !

cytex

usernamegoes wrote: »

Which part of the Constitution says this is a Constitutional Right? When you find it please quote the whole of the Article.

Article 8

[FONT=Verdana,Verdana][FONT=Verdana,Verdana]

1. The Irish language as the national language is the first official language.

[/FONT][/FONT]

　

3. Provision may, however, be made by law for the exclusive use of either of the said languages for any one or more official purposes, either throughout the State or in any part thereof.

your bang on about this point I am incorrect .

Permabear

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anymore

If I could find moderately priced adult irish evening classes, I would attaned and would like to speak irish fluently, I have paid to send my kid to the gaeltacht twice but I have no time for all this ' We are special people' which is part of the politically correct Tyranny that has become so much part of irish life - there are no ' special people' we are all equal .

cytex

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

Who is trying to stop people from speaking Gaeilge why the irish goverment is trying to make it as hard as possible for people to speak the langauge in any official way.

Rules to break the immerssion enviroment of Gaeilscoils by trying to enforce english speaking in junior infants.
http://www.independent.ie/lifestyle/education/latest-news/gaelscoil-firstyears-should-not-be-taught-any-english-69626.html

try ringing up to any department as gaeilge and see the response you get they have made it easier to speak english to get anywhere or to get any help or try talking to a guard or doctor as gaeilge.
it is now easier to set up a gaelscoil in the north than it is in the republic.
I could go on with this there was 700 complaints to this department last year.

"Lavish funds" the goverment is wasteing money left right and center they are not spending the funding for the Irish language any way intelligently. However this department was one that most Gaeilgoirs respected it meant we have some where to complain and get our rights under the 2003 langauge act . This department was speaking out about the waste that most here are arguing about.

And im not being melodramatic langauge rights is about civil rights full stop the goverment are forcing people to speak english they are getting rid of the department that stood up for Gaeilge speakers. The two languages should be equal as they are both official languages. I should be able to talk to the state in the offical language of this country no problem i cant and there responce is "you should be able to speak english just fine". That is unacceptable to me . While i agree money is being wasted to translate documents one department spent 30k on one document this is atrocuious spending they should hire gaeilge speakers and documents should be written by these gaeige speakers not wasting money on third party translators.

texidub

Most of them are probably protesting as one day they hope to get one of those pretend media jobs in Ireland's greatest charity scam --TG4.

The Irish language lobby is a bigger threat to Irish culture today than any other group. They won't rest until everybody else conforms to their anti-Irish agenda.

cytex

anymore wrote: »

If I could find moderately priced adult irish evening classes, I would attaned and would like to speak irish fluently, I have paid to send my kid to the gaeltacht twice but I have no time for all this ' We are special people' which is part of the politically correct Tyranny that has become so much part of irish life - there are no ' special people' we are all equal .

http://www.peoplescollege.ie/courses.html

Cheapest in dublin no idea how good they are tho.

cytex

texidub wrote: »

Most of them are probably protesting as one day they hope to get one of those pretend media jobs in Ireland's greatest charity scam --TG4.

The Irish language lobby is a bigger threat to Irish culture today than any other group. They won't rest until everybody else conforms to their anti-Irish agenda.

Surely the Greatest charity scam in ireland is RTE .

"Anti irish Agenda" how is wanting equal rights with english speakers a "anti-irish agenda"

anymore

cytex wrote: »

http://www.peoplescollege.ie/courses.html

Cheapest in dublin no idea how good they are tho.

Thank you but i live in Cork.

Lord TSC

try ringing up to any department as gaeilge and see the response you get they have made it easier to speak english to get anywhere or to get any help or try talking to a guard or doctor as gaeilge

So what? They should pander to the (generous figure) 1.7% of people who speak Irish on a daily basis? Even presuming that figure represents people who only speak Irish, it's crazy to expect every government body and every public service to facilitate such a small, small minority.

The thing is I can see the point you're trying to make. I get why people would want some documents to be made available in Irish. But I simply cannot see the justification of having a seperate office whose job is to force 100% of documentation, road signs, government stationary, etc to be translated to facilitate the desires of 1.7% of the people, when 98.3% of the population can get by perfectly well without the Irish translations.

I get why people want Irish to be encouraged or the options to be available. I do not get how these people don't realise how selfish it is to force these desires on 98.3% (minimum) of the population. You want equal rights for a minority group who only represent the tinest section of Irish society.

cytex

anymore wrote: »

Thank you but i live in Cork.

http://www.peoplesrepublicofcork.com/articles/irish-language-evening-courses

try these then

texidub

cytex wrote: »

Surely the Greatest charity scam in ireland is RTE .

"Anti irish Agenda" how is wanting equal rights with english speakers a "anti-irish agenda"

I said the "Irish language lobby." Their ambition extends way beyond equal rights to the forced learning of Irish in schools, stealing tax payers money to fund a tv station that gets about 3% of the Irish TV market (which is tiny anyway), and to promoting their language at the expense of the language of the vast majority of Irish people.

The vast, vast majority Irish people speak English. Therefore Irish culture is English speaking. In this sense and through the actions described above the Irish language lobby have an anti-Irish cultural agenda --a bare-faced attempt to overthrow Irish culture as it stands today. Anti-Irish poison. Go and set up another country if you're so opposed to Irish culture.

Leave Ireland alone!

cytex

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

So what? They should pander to the (generous figure) 1.7% of people who speak Irish on a daily basis? Even presuming that figure represents people who only speak Irish, it's crazy to expect every government body and every public service to facilitate such a small, small minority.

The thing is I can see the point you're trying to make. I get why people would want some documents to be made available in Irish. But I simply cannot see the justification of having a seperate office whose job is to force 100% of documentation, road signs, government stationary, etc to be translated to facilitate the desires of 1.7% of the people, when 98.3% of the population can get by perfectly well without the Irish translations.

I get why people want Irish to be encouraged or the options to be available. I do not get how these people don't realise how selfish it is to force these desires on 98.3% (minimum) of the population. You want equal rights for a minority group who only represent the tinest section of Irish society.

Personally I dont agree with forcing anything on english speakers at all. I would prefer the goverment to support gaelscoils for every parent that wants to send there child there. But Gaeilge speakers are a part of this country are you saying that they should not be a equal part because they speak there national language ?? I want equal rights for to speak both langauges of the state and not have english rammed down their throats.

anymore

cytex wrote: »

http://www.peoplesrepublicofcork.com/articles/irish-language-evening-courses

try these then

Thank you again - it is too late for autumn classes, but I will enquure there for the Spring. The last time I had enquired about Irish classes, UCC were charging € 300 for evening classes !
This may allow me to help my kid with irish for the leaving cert next year !

cytex

texidub wrote: »

I said the "Irish language lobby." Their ambition extends way beyond equal rights to the forced learning of Irish in schools, stealing tax payers money to fund a tv station that gets about 3% of the Irish TV market (which is tiny anyway), and to promoting their language at the expense of the language of the vast majority of Irish people.

The vast, vast majority Irish people speak English. Therefore Irish culture is English speaking. In this sense and through the actions described above they have an anti-Irish cultural agenda --a bare-faced attempt to overthrow Irish culture as it stands today. Anti-Irish poison. Go and set up another country if you're so opposed to Irish culture.

Leave Ireland alone!

Stealing tax payers money ????????
Gaeilge speakers are tax payers do i say the unemployed steal my money do i say that people who have children steal my money. Tg4 is a way better station than rte 1 or 2 or tv3 . They have a lot more variety sport and no overpaid presenters on it a much better bang for the buck than any of the rtes.

And yes I agree irish should not be forced down anybodys throat either should english be forced down anybody throat.

I really hate to break it to you but Gaeilge is everymuch a part of irish culture as anything else this is our country too and we deserve equal rights in it And nobody wants to overthrow irish culture seriously do you here yourself .

Lord TSC

cytex wrote: »

Personally I dont agree with forcing anything on english speakers at all. I would prefer the goverment to support gaelscoils for every parent that wants to send there child there. But Gaeilge speakers are a part of this country are you saying that they should not be a equal part because they speak there national language ?? I want equal rights for to speak both langauges of the state and not have english rammed down their throats.

I'm not saying they, as a people, are second class citizens. Thats just begging for sympathy cause you know it's difficult to defend your arguement with logic.

I am saying that the Irish language is only spoken by 1.7% of the Irish population outside of educational institutes. I'm saying that it is ludicrous to expect a language which is the first language of 1.7% of the population to be on equal ground to one which is the first language of 98.3% of the population. It shouldn't be on equal ground because it's not spoekn by anywhere near an equal number of people.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

texidub

cytex wrote: »

And nobody wants to overthrow irish culture seriously do you here yourself .

yes stealing was the wrong choice of words.. I meant 'wasting'

and I have already explained why I think the Irish language lobby are a threat to Irish culture as it stands. They won't rest until Irish culture --which is Engish speaking, whether you or I like it or not-- is transformed into something else.. predominantly Irish speaking, of course. In this sense they are anti-Irish culture and are attempting to overthrow it.

Not only are they a cultural threat, but they are a threat to the ability of Irish people to communicate with more people around the globe, something we should be doing more of given our position as a small country in a big, big world.

I am sorry if you disagree, but IMO the Irish language lobby are a poison: culturally, and linguistically. The sooner we stop stop wasting taxpayers money on them and their useless projects and their anti-Irish agenda, the better.

cytex

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

I'm not saying they, as a people, are second class citizens. Thats just begging for sympathy cause you know it's difficult to defend your arguement with logic.

I am saying that the Irish language is only spoken by 1.7% of the Irish population outside of educational institutes. I'm saying that it is ludicrous to expect a language which is the first language of 1.7% of the population to be on equal ground to one which is the first language of 98.3% of the population. It shouldn't be on equal ground because it's not spoekn by anywhere near an equal number of people.

The logic is this .

Gaeilge speakers are apart of this state . Gaeilge is a offical language of this state.. Gaeilge speakers pay taxes in this state. Gaeilge speakers should be able to address the state as Gaeilge. Gaeilge speakers should not have the other language of this state forced down their throats and english speakers should not have Gaeilge forced down their throats.

just beacause english is the majority language does not mean that the minority people should have this thrust upon them and told they have to speak english when dealing with Their goverment. That is inequality making Gaeilge speakers who do speak a offical language of this state a second class citizen.

There are 2 official languages in this country why should people not be able to address the state in this second language.

cytex

texidub wrote: »

yes stealing was the wrong choice of words.. I meant 'wasting'

and I have already explained why I think the Irish language lobby are a threat to Irish culture as it stands. They won't rest until Irish culture --which is Engish speaking, whether you or I like it or not-- is transformed into something else.. predominantly Irish speaking, of course. In this sense they are anti-Irish culture and are attempting to overthrow it.

Not only are they a cultural threat, but they are a threat to the ability of Irish people to communicate with more people around the globe, something we should be doing more of given our position as a small country in a big, big world.

I am sorry if you disagree, but IMO the Irish language lobby are a poison: culturally, and linguistically. The sooner we stop stop wasting taxpayers money on them and their useless projects and their anti-Irish agenda, the better.

You are wrong on this even the most hard core Gaeilge lobbist would like a bilingual state not a Gaeilge only one. So no they are not trying to overthrow anything .

Again your second point is wrong they are not trying to hurt our ability to communicate with any around the world as they dont want the country to give up english even the most hard core supporter would see why this is deitremental. Seriously you should stop reading the irish times about what these people stand for and ask them what they want as you are way off.

cytex

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

So supporting one of the cultures in this state is not a sensible use of state funds and you were saying i was being melodramtic with my second class citizen comment. I pay my taxes same as you.

Except in a few isolated pockets of the country, Irish is not a vibrant, thriving community language in which families, neighbors, and friends converse as a matter of course. It is actually that reality that Gaelgoirs are protesting about — if they can't speak Irish with their neighbors and friends, they want the right to speak it to the state. But it's simply tokenism to insist that Guards or doctors should be able to speak this language.

It is a minority language but there are communitys of it all over that are not recognised by the goverment. In dublin I can socialize by going to pubs cafes restraunts in Gaeilge and have the expectation that every single person in those places can and do speak Gaeilge.
I know of a thriving community in tallaght and ballymun and im sure there are others where peoples day to day language is Gaeilge so you are simply wrong on this point.

Spending millions a year so that a tiny minority of aggrieved Gaelgoirs have somewhere to complain is just silly.



English, the primary spoken and written language of the country for two centuries, is our national lingua franca. The "all Irish, all the time" stance of some Gaelgoirs is quixotic to the point of utter foolishness.



Ireland has over 300,000 public servants, only a small minority of whom are fluent enough in Irish to be able to deliver services by way of it. The state is a primarily English-speaking institution. Witness the recent general election and presidential debates, in which political leaders stumbled awkwardly through TG4 debates that had to be broadcast with subtitles for the benefit of the 99 percent.



So, county councils should hire Irish speakers to write their planning reports, and then pay to have those reports translated back into English for the 99 percent? That's a bit bass ackwards, to be honest.

Standing up for citizens rights of this country is not silly. Again you also should stop reading the irish times and actually find out what gaeilgoirs want as your way off.

No they should right there report in english give it to a Gaeilge speaker to translate into Gaeilge 30k a year should be enough to hire one not 30k a document or anything close.

Valmont

cytex wrote: »

Standing up for citizens rights of this country is not silly.

Nobody is stopping anyone from speaking Irish. If you wish to speak it, you will not be stopped. Although what I expect you mean is that it's your civil right to have other people's money dumped into your hobby language because you think that's what should be done with it. That is just fascistic in my book.

Dumping thousands of taxpayer's cash into a nationalistic endeavour that will only serve to benefit a very small segment of the population is not only wrong, but a massive waste of resources.

cytex

Valmont wrote: »

Nobody is stopping anyone from speaking Irish. If you wish to speak it, you will not be stopped. Although what I expect you mean is that it's your civil right to have other people's money dumped into your hobby language because you think that's what should be done with it. That is just fascistic in my book.

Dumping thousands of taxpayer's cash into a nationalistic endeavour that will only serve to benefit a very small segment of the population is not only wrong, but a massive waste of resources.

Sure you will be stopped and get told to speak english if you do not believe me ring up any state body and ask an bhfuil gaeilge agat? and see the responce you get 9/10 times you will get a negative response and get told to speak english. This is contrary to the language act of 2003.

My hobby language ?????????

It is a national language of this country it has been spoken in this country for thousands of years . I mearly want the same rights as you have end of story.

There are lots of endeavours that i have no intrest in that tax payers money gets "dumped" in are these equal a waste. This is a living language on this Island . This is people who are native to these shores language There rights are just as important as the english speakers rights they have as much right to speak there language as you do . They have as much right to speak to and deal with the state in either of the national languages .

The fact that i have to defend the language while people call it a "dead language" , "a hobby language" . And the people who speak the language as "trying to take over irish culture " shows the reason we need this office. This is peoples culture and language we are talking about show both them and THEIR language some respect please.

Lord TSC

cytex wrote: »

The logic is this .

Gaeilge speakers are apart of this state . Gaeilge is a offical language of this state.. Gaeilge speakers pay taxes in this state. Gaeilge speakers should be able to address the state as Gaeilge. Gaeilge speakers should not have the other language of this state forced down their throats and english speakers should not have Gaeilge forced down their throats.

just beacause english is the majority language does not mean that the minority people should have this thrust upon them and told they have to speak english when dealing with Their goverment. That is inequality making Gaeilge speakers who do speak a offical language of this state a second class citizen.

There are 2 official languages in this country why should people not be able to address the state in this second language.

No one is saying "People should not be able to address the state in Irish". You're arguing against the point you want to argue against rather than the one being put forward.

As a language, Irish is not on equal footing with English in Ireland. There is a divide, if we are generous to the Irish language, of 2 people in every 100 who say they speak Irish in every day situations. I also think it would be fair to say that most of these people are going to be confined to small pockets of the countries, predominatly Gaeltach areas.

Irish speakers do pay taxes, but only make up 2% of the population who do so. Why is it then that there's a desire amoung part of that 2% to force the other 98% of the population to study and speak their language. Do the 98% not pay taxes? You can argue that you're not trying to force Irish down anyone's throat, but when it's compulsory in school, when every document has to be in Irish to pander to the 2%, then yes, you are cramming it down people's throats.

No one is forcing you to speak English; if you want to speak Irish, no one is stopping you. It's simply unrealistic to expect to ring up any office at any time and expect to speak Irish instantly, since its not a language used by the vast majority of the state. Yes, it is a service which should be provided upon request but not one which is forced on people through obligitory translations of not just government documents (which I can see the point of), but road signs, public services, stationary, etc.

No one is saying that Irish speakers should have to speak English. What we're saying is that its unrealistic to think every office, every service, every facilaty should hire someone to deal with 1.7% of the Irish population. Thats not financially viable. By insisting they do, it is IRISH being forced down people's throats; 1.7% of the population is trying to force translations that are not nessecary to 98% of the country.

I also think you are confusing "People's right to speak a language" with a governments responisbility to provide services in the widest possible way, which is through English. No one is trying to cut out Irish from Ireland; they are trying to deal with people in the most effective manner and like it or not, thats through English...

cytex

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

No one is saying "People should not be able to address the state in Irish". You're arguing against the point you want to argue against rather than the one being put forward.

As a language, Irish is not on equal footing with English in Ireland. There is a divide, if we are generous to the Irish language, of 2 people in every 100 who say they speak Irish in every day situations. I also think it would be fair to say that most of these people are going to be confined to small pockets of the countries, predominatly Gaeltach areas.

Irish speakers do pay taxes, but only make up 2% of the population who do so. Why is it then that there's a desire amoung part of that 2% to force the other 98% of the population to study and speak their language. Do the 98% not pay taxes? You can argue that you're not trying to force Irish down anyone's throat, but when it's compulsory in school, when every document has to be in Irish to pander to the 2%, then yes, you are cramming it down people's throats.

No one is forcing you to speak English; if you want to speak Irish, no one is stopping you. It's simply unrealistic to expect to ring up any office at any time and expect to speak Irish instantly, since its not a language used by the vast majority of the state. Yes, it is a service which should be provided upon request but not one which is forced on people through obligitory translations of not just government documents (which I can see the point of), but road signs, public services, stationary, etc.

No one is saying that Irish speakers should have to speak English. What we're saying is that its unrealistic to think every office, every service, every facilaty should hire someone to deal with 1.7% of the Irish population. Thats not financially viable. By insisting they do, it is IRISH being forced down people's throats; 1.7% of the population is trying to force translations that are not nessecary to 98% of the country.

I also think you are confusing "People's right to speak a language" with a governments responisbility to provide services in the widest possible way, which is through English. No one is trying to cut out Irish from Ireland; they are trying to deal with people in the most effective manner and like it or not, thats through English...

First off i want english speakers to have the same rights i support the removing of compulsary irish from english speaking school . tho i do want every single parent who wants to educate there child in a gaelscoil to be able to do that and not the current situation where a lot cannot get places in these schools and are forced to send the child to english school.
Most people who speak gaeilge honestly do not give a flying fig if the english speakers speak it or not they just want you to stop ramming english down our throats.

"No one is saying "People should not be able to address the state in Irish". "
That is precisley what you for one are saying .

Why is it unrealistic to be able to speak a official language and a native language of the state to the state ?


"No one is saying that Irish speakers should have to speak English"

that is precisley what you are saying in the next half of your post.

Lord TSC

cytex wrote: »

Why is it unrealistic to be able to speak a official language and a native language of the state to the state ?
[/I]

Its not. Its unrealistic to expect to be able to ring up and speak instantly to the state in a language that only 2% speak on a daily basis. Its unrealistic to expect money be spent on wages, rent, translation costs all just in case someone refuses or cannot speak English. Its unrealistic to expect equality for a language that isn't on equal footing with the other.

I'm all for being able to speak Irish to the state, but do you really want to insist that every single office have someone on standby beside the phone incase one of the 2% ring? In a time when jobs are being cut left and right, that's one you insist they keep? That every single Doctor has someone on staff who can speak fluent Irish despite the fact 98% of people don't need it, and the 2% are kept to a small area of Ireland?

Its unrealistic to expect there to be such immediate translation facilities for 2% of the population. I'm all for having a system whereby if you need to speak to a government office or need to talk to someone in Irish and refuse to speak English, you can organise such a meeting. Independent translators who are not hired on a daily basis by the government but on a nesecity basis would be the way forward; people who aren't getting paid for a job which requires them to take a phone call every six months. But it is unrealistic to expect money to go into keeping people employed just incase someone from the 2% calls. Its not financially viable or responsible to 98% of the country.

deise go deo

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

So what? They should pander to the (generous figure) 1.7% of people who speak Irish on a daily basis? Even presuming that figure represents people who only speak Irish, it's crazy to expect every government body and every public service to facilitate such a small, small minority.

You have taken the smallest possible figure for the number of Irish speakers, and called it a generous figure.
This is nonsense, quite frankly you are spreading misinformation.

The figure you are talking about is the number of people who use Irish every day outside the education system, this dose not include people who use Irish every day in and outside the education system, nor dose it include the tens of thousands of people who are not in a position to use Irish every day yet are still fluent in the language.

Quite simply your argument is facetious.

The thing is I can see the point you're trying to make. I get why people would want some documents to be made available in Irish. But I simply cannot see the justification of having a seperate office whose job is to force 100% of documentation, road signs, government stationary, etc to be translated to facilitate the desires of 1.7% of the people, when 98.3% of the population can get by perfectly well without the Irish translations.

Again more misinformation, it has already been pointed out in this thread that 100% of documents are not translated.

I get why people want Irish to be encouraged or the options to be available. I do not get how these people don't realise how selfish it is to force these desires on 98.3% (minimum) of the population. You want equal rights for a minority group who only represent the tinest section of Irish society.

Do you not get how breathtakingly selfish and arrogant it is to force a minority to speak a language they do not want to?

deise go deo

anymore wrote: »

Thank you again - it is too late for autumn classes, but I will enquure there for the Spring. The last time I had enquired about Irish classes, UCC were charging € 300 for evening classes !
This may allow me to help my kid with irish for the leaving cert next year !

I would suggest that one of the best ways of learning Irish is in a ciorcal comhrá, they are almost always on, you can start at any time, they are nice and informal and best of all free.

texidub

deise go deo wrote: »

Do you not get how breathtakingly selfish and arrogant it is to force a minority to speak a language they do not want to?

Do you know get how breathtakingly selfish it is for a tiny minority to force a majority to speak a language they do not want to?

I will say it again: Irish language lobbyists are a threat to Irish culture. They will use emotional blackmail, they will cajole, and they will guilt-trip in order to achieve their aim of disrupting and overthrowing Irish culture. They are the most anti-Irish group in the country.

deise go deo

texidub wrote: »

Do you know get how breathtakingly selfish it is for a tiny minority to force a majority to speak a language they do not want to?

I will say it again: Irish language lobbyists are a threat to Irish culture. They will use emotional blackmail, they will cajole, and they will guilt-trip in order to achieve their aim of disrupting and overthrowing Irish culture. They are the most anti-Irish group in the country.

What minority? Do you think only people who are fluent in Irish believe Irish should remain compulsory? I know plenty of Irish speakers who disagree with Irish being compulsory, and I know many more people who barely have a few words of Irish who believe it should remain compulsory.

For every survey that shows a majority in favour if it being optional for LC, there is one that shows a majority in favour of it remaining compulsory, it is impossible to say which side is really in the majority on the issue, but it is obvious to anyone with a brain that neither side is a tiny minority.

cyclopath2001

deise go deo wrote: »

Again more misinformation, it has already been pointed out in this thread that 100% of documents are not translated

This is misleading.

It is the Main Aim of the OLA that not only will 100% of documents will be translated in future but also, at unlimited expense, all services will be available in Irish.

It is this crazy Fianna Folly-inspired project that the present government is now, quite sensibly, scrutinising.