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It wouldn't be the county stadium. That county would play in their own 10k stadia. These would be specifically be for IC games within that province and cross province in the all Ireland series. Munster now has 4 white elephants with only one to a really decent standard in PUC. Thurles is a great pitch but a poor ground, Limerick is a ghost stadia unless its packed, Killarney is irrelevant except once every two years. Absolutely stupid and wasteful to spend money on below average monoliths that are only used properly once or twice a year. Its like buying an Hummer to drive to the shops at the top of the road.
Not using such a stadium for the county would surely make it a white elephant anyway. Assets need to be sweated not underused.0 -
Not using such a stadium for the county would surely make it a white elephant anyway. Assets need to be sweated not underused.
It would end up with 6 or 7 times more games coming close to capacity than the current situation. It would also mean games that are dead in croke park with 30k could be electric in one of these. We could carry 4 decent stadia rather than 30 oversized and below standard stadia. It would be nice to be able to go see a league game in february in middling comfort. Go get a tea, or hot food before or at half time, sit out of the rain and wind, with a good atmosphere, without a big pillar blocking the view and watch players play to a high standard on a quality pitch, avoiding the likes of what we saw in the Tyrone Kerry game this year.0 -
It would end up with 6 or 7 times more games coming close to capacity than the current situation. It would also mean games that are dead in croke park with 30k could be electric in one of these. We could carry 4 decent stadia rather than 30 oversized and below standard stadia. It would be nice to be able to go see a league game in february in middling comfort. Go get a tea, or hot food before or at half time, sit out of the rain and wind, with a good atmosphere, without a big pillar blocking the view and watch players play to a high standard on a quality pitch, avoiding the likes of what we saw in the Tyrone Kerry game this year.
You said the counties could have their 10,000 capacity stadiums so presumably they are playing their league matches there so how many games do you envisage a year in these regional ones? I think building more stadiums that aren’t for a specific team is pretty much a white elephant.0 -
Something like the RheinEnergie Stadium in Koln with mixed standing/seating should be the blueprint (sized appropriately - 50k is way to big for everyone except Dublin).
I think the GAA/IRFU/FAI will have to get on board with multi use developments if they want viable higher capacity stadia. I concede that the different dimensions per game would take away from the atmosphere somewhat though.
My own province Connacht; the lack of a unified approach to stadia has resulted in McHale Park (25k, €16m in 2008), Hyde Park(25k, can't source what the new stand there cost) and Pearse Stadium (26k, €12m in 2003). They're all middling stadia with crumbling terraces, 1 good seated stand and horrendous facilities for players and spectators - access to MacHale and Pearse is consistently a joke.
What if the Connacht Council/County Boards had poured that money into 1 stadium for the province? You'd have a fantastic venue that you could rent to Connacht Rugby, probably make a few quid from concerts and distribute equally to the counties.
Anyway I'm sure there's plenty of holes to be poked in that re county board funding etc etc but I believe the parochial nature of the country in general leads to these white elephants that get filled 2 or 3 times a year if we're lucky.
I dotn know where you pulled your capacity figures from, Mc Hale Park and the hdye both 25K and i really cat understand how you can compare MacHale and Pearse in terms of access, Castlebar pisses all over Salthill in that regard and the terracing there isnt 'crumbling' and is sued as seating anyway, not your conventional terracing0 -
Coillte_Bhoy wrote: »I dotn know where you pulled your capacity figures from, Mc Hale Park and the hdye both 25K and i really cat understand how you can compare MacHale and Pearse in terms of access, Castlebar pisses all over Salthill in that regard and the terracing there isnt 'crumbling' and is sued as seating anyway, not your conventional terracing
Either way Castlebar is an expensive dump. Bar the very expensive new stand its a horrible place to watch a match. Who wants to sit on concrete plinths in the depths of winter. No facilities worth talking about bar a jacks which even at a not very busy game is a nightmare to get in and out off. And like Pearse and Thurles and Clones and Kingspan etc. its more than half empty 95% of the time with a poor atmosphere in general. Pitch is cat too.0 -
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Either way Castlebar is an expensive dump. Bar the very expensive new stand its a horrible place to watch a match. Who wants to sit on concrete plinths in the depths of winter. No facilities worth talking about bar a jacks which even at a not very busy game is a nightmare to get in and out off. And like Pearse and Thurles and Clones and Kingspan etc. its more than half empty 95% of the time with a poor atmosphere in general. Pitch is cat too.
The stand is a bit of a joke as well. A modern stand with pillars obstructing views isn't good enough. It's like the Mayo County Board wanted to build the biggest stand outside of Croker at the time but to do it as cheaply as possible. The blue seats are another cost cutting exercise no doubt. If they built a more modest stand but of better quality they'd have been way better off.
Kilkenny have it spot on in terms of stadium development. Small but covered all sides. Going to MacHale park for a league game and sitting on the cold concrete uncovered seats isn't fun.0 -
WesternZulu wrote: »The stand is a bit of a joke as well. A modern stand with pillars obstructing views isn't good enough. It's like the Mayo County Board wanted to build the biggest stand outside of Croker at the time but to do it as cheaply as possible. The blue seats are another cost cutting exercise no doubt. If they built a more modest stand but of better quality they'd have been way better off.
Kilkenny have it spot on in terms of stadium development. Small but covered all sides. Going to MacHale park for a league game and sitting on the cold concrete uncovered seats isn't fun.
Ya to be fair Kilkenny got it pretty much spot on, the only issue being they didn't run the new roof the full length of the pitch when they had the chance.0 -
Coillte_Bhoy wrote: »I dotn know where you pulled your capacity figures from, Mc Hale Park and the hdye both 25K and i really cat understand how you can compare MacHale and Pearse in terms of access, Castlebar pisses all over Salthill in that regard and the terracing there isnt 'crumbling' and is sued as seating anyway, not your conventional terracing
Capacities taken from Wikipedia - think they're based on Fire Officer/Garda restrictions. I know Pearse Stadium was 34k when it opened (and a capacity crowd, which I had the displeasure of being a part of for the International Rules in 2007, was downright dangerous).
Point taken on MacHale being a relatively new redevelopment hence my comment on terracing is more directed at Hyde Park & to a lesser extent Pearse Stadium.WesternZulu wrote: »The stand is a bit of a joke as well. A modern stand with pillars obstructing views isn't good enough.
How it wasn't cantilevered in this day and age is so short sighted.0 -
Ray Donovan wrote: »Ya to be fair Kilkenny got it pretty much spot on, the only issue being they didn't run the new roof the full length of the pitch when they had the chance.
They could not get planning permission to run the whole length of the field , the residents at that side objected saying the stand would shade there houses.0 -
They could not get planning permission to run the whole length of the field , the residents at that side objected saying the stand would shade there houses.
The mad thing is it doesn't shade their houses at all, except at sunset.
They might have to re-do it eventually, the outside wall and that side of the road beside the footpath is really starting to lean out at a fair angle in some parts.
Besides, the stadium was there before the houses and is used all year round, I don't see why a new fully covered stand can't be implemented there, especially seeing as the bit of stand that's there now is lower than the previous one.0 -
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The mad thing is it doesn't shade their houses at all, except at sunset.
They might have to re-do it eventually, the outside wall and that side of the road beside the footpath is really starting to lean out at a fair angle in some parts.
Besides, the stadium was there before the houses and is used all year round, I don't see why a new fully covered stand can't be implemented there, especially seeing as the bit of stand that's there now is lower than the previous one.
My only issue with Nowlan park is its a bit disjointed, half a stand on one side another half a stand behind one goal and nothing matches the other but in terms of size and the atmosphere it generates its one of the best grounds in the country. If the most successful hurling team of all time can manage with ease with a ground that size you really have to wonder where some counties that wouldn't win a raffle think its a great idea to build a stadium double that size and multiple times the cost.0 -
The mad thing is it doesn't shade their houses at all, except at sunset.
They might have to re-do it eventually, the outside wall and that side of the road beside the footpath is really starting to lean out at a fair angle in some parts.
Besides, the stadium was there before the houses and is used all year round, I don't see why a new fully covered stand can't be implemented there, especially seeing as the bit of stand that's there now is lower than the previous one.
I am sure if there is a problem with the wall the local TD would be on to Kilkenny Co Board.0 -
It wouldn't be the county stadium. That county would play in their own 10k stadia. These would be specifically be for IC games within that province and cross province in the all Ireland series. Munster now has 4 white elephants with only oneto a really decent standard in PUC. Thurles is a great pitch but a poor ground, Limerick is a ghost stadia unless its packed, Killarney is irrelevant except once every two years. Absolutely stupid and wasteful to spend money on below average monoliths that are only used properly once or twice a year. Its like buying an Hummer to drive to the shops at the top of the road.
I think you dont get the dynamics of Munsterat all. Firstly 10,000 might go to a challenge match but are you seriously saying counties with 150,000 + and Cork with 560,000 would be ok with a 10,000 seater stadium. It's not on. Limerick is a good stadium its held All Ireland semi finals. Thurles the same. Cork is obviously excellent. To compare them to the likes of Clones and Pearse stadium isnt comparing like with like. 2 it 3 matches a year is plenty to sustain them. They arent White hart lane or Wembley with all the technical infrastructure those stadiums have. They suit just fine.0 -
BloodyBill wrote: »I think you dont get the dynamics of Munsterat all. Firstly 10,000 might go to a challenge match but are you seriously saying counties with 150,000 + and Cork with 560,000 would be ok with a 10,000 seater stadium. It's not on. Limerick is a good stadium its held All Ireland semi finals. Thurles the same. Cork is obviously excellent. To compare them to the likes of Clones and Pearse stadium isnt comparing like with like. 2 it 3 matches a year is plenty to sustain them. They arent White hart lane or Wembley with all the technical infrastructure those stadiums have. They suit just fine.
They dont suit fine at all. League games are lost in them. All but the biggest intercounty games too. Limerick is full once every 3 years. The quality of atmosphere and experience outside this is crap. Doesn't matter what your population is its people through the gate that counts. The pitch in limerick is brutal when wet too. Just look at the limerick galway game this year. It was a mudbath after heavy overnight rain.0 -
They dont suit fine at all. League games are lost in them. All but the biggest intercounty games too. Limerick is full once every 3 years. The quality of atmosphere and experience outside this is crap. Doesn't matter what your population is its people through the gate that counts. The pitch in limerick is brutal when wet too. Just look at the limerick galway game this year. It was a mudbath after heavy overnight rain.
What do you want us to do? Knock Gaelic Grounds and Thurles and make them 10k capacity to suit the league games and maybe keep the newly refurbished Pairc Ui Chaoimh as the designated Munster Championship venue?
You said Gaelic Grounds is only full once every 3 years. Well in 2019 alone, the Gaelic Grounds had crowds of 31,234 for the Cork v Limerick game, they had 29,611 at the Limerick v Clare game, they had 44,052 at the Limerick v Tipp game in the Munster Final. There was over 20,000 people at the Cork v Tipp All Ireland Under 20 Final there last year too.
As Bloody Bill has said already, it is a good arrangement where Munster Championship games are evenly spread between Cork, Thurles and Limerick and it's good for the economy in those three places too.0 -
Watching the Bundesliga this weekend where they have terraces, which is great to see in top level club soccer. Bayern playing Union Berlin in a stadium with one stand and 3 terraces like most GAA stadiums. However this stadium is fully roofed, has a great pitch and I asume had excellent facilities (like toilets). Capacity of 22,000 and only cost €15 million. We got PUC with two covered stands and a pitch that had already needed to be redone for nearly €100 million. Why can’t counties just do a solid job and cover the terraces for low prices. I love Semple but it’s crumbling. Fitzgerald stadium, Gaelic Grounds, Pearse Stadium and most others would be so much better with a roof. Like I don’t know do county boards think we live in Spain.
This is the Union Berlin stadium which should be a model for most GAA stadiums0 -
Watching the Bundesliga this weekend where they have terraces, which is great to see in top level club soccer. Bayern playing Union Berlin in a stadium with one stand and 3 terraces like most GAA stadiums. However this stadium is fully roofed, has a great pitch and I asume had excellent facilities (like toilets). Capacity of 22,000 and only cost €15 million. We got PUC with two covered stands and a pitch that had already needed to be redone for nearly €100 million. Why can’t counties just do a solid job and cover the terraces for low prices. I love Semple but it’s crumbling. Fitzgerald stadium, Gaelic Grounds, Pearse Stadium and most others would be so much better with a roof. Like I don’t know do county boards think we live in Spain.
This is the Union Berlin stadium which should be a model for most GAA stadiums
They dont need to roof the terraces. Hurling is a summer sport. Complete waste of money. They do need to up their game with facilities for grub and drink. The ablutions are always the Achilles heel in GAA grounds. Ennis immediately brings nightmares.0 -
BloodyBill wrote: »They dont need to roof the terraces. Hurling is a summer sport. Complete waste of money. They do need to up their game with facilities for grub and drink. The ablutions are always the Achilles heel in GAA grounds. Ennis immediately brings nightmares.
Roofs generally produce a better atmosphere as they tend to trap the noise inside the ground rather than letting it escape.
https://www.insidescience.org/news/stadium-acoustics-pump-volume
Also in Ireland you're probably better having a roof in the Summer because you can get some terribly wet and windy days and as an alternative to this they can also provide some shade from extreme heat in the unlikely chance that we get a heatwave.0 -
Watching the Bundesliga this weekend where they have terraces, which is great to see in top level club soccer. Bayern playing Union Berlin in a stadium with one stand and 3 terraces like most GAA stadiums. However this stadium is fully roofed, has a great pitch and I asume had excellent facilities (like toilets). Capacity of 22,000 and only cost €15 million. We got PUC with two covered stands and a pitch that had already needed to be redone for nearly €100 million. Why can’t counties just do a solid job and cover the terraces for low prices. I love Semple but it’s crumbling. Fitzgerald stadium, Gaelic Grounds, Pearse Stadium and most others would be so much better with a roof. Like I don’t know do county boards think we live in Spain.
This is the Union Berlin stadium which should be a model for most GAA stadiums
The Union Berlin stadium looks good alright, but like many of these soccer to GAA stadium comparisons, the devil is in the detail. The single stand was what cost €15 Million. The total redevelopment was over €20 Million. Add in inflation and the increased cost of surrounding a GAA field compared to a soccer one and it'd be unaffordable for most counties.
The cost of PuC was still a disgrace though, I'll give you that.0 -
This thing of every county should have something like X stadium should be and then a big provisional ground completely ignores the existing situation. It's the "well I wouldn't start from here" type answer. The reality is stadiums exist as they are and ripping them down and rebuilding to some template will cost more than adapting and upgrading over time. If starting from scratch these template ideas would be great but we have existing stadia and many with existing debt, neither are just going to disappear.
I mean that the GG, yes it is probably over-sized but what is to be gained from demolishing to reduce capacity? It would be cheaper and better value for money to just replace the main stand and have a stadium which can host big games. Most stadia hold around 20k or less and there is nothing to be gained by knocking serviceable stands to rebuild at reduced capacity.
In many cases there is only really one stand that needs full replacement, generally the main stand. A roofed seated stand, plenty of well maintained toilets, accessible shops and good facilities for players are required here. In some cases this can be achieved by upgrading the existing stand, Clare had a plan to give the main stand at CP a fairly major overhaul, don't know if it went ahead. In some cases, like Newbridge, you have to start again.
Terraces most places are generally fine and if not, most can be brought up to a reasonable standard relatively cheaply. Roofs over terraces are a nicetto have but not necessary, people know what the weather will be like before leaving home and dress accordingly. Umbrellas can also be used, particularly if the terrace isn't full. I don't think roof makes much differencey in terms of atmosphere, unless the space is fully enclosed, the sound disperses in all directions anyway.0 -
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BloodyBill wrote: »They dont need to roof the terraces. Hurling is a summer sport. Complete waste of money. They do need to up their game with facilities for grub and drink. The ablutions are always the Achilles heel in GAA grounds. Ennis immediately brings nightmares.
Cusack Park in Ennis is a sh*thole. End of.0 -
and Irish summers are often full of crap weather and just makes sense to have covered seating/standing areas where at all possibleBloodyBill wrote: »They dont need to roof the terraces. Hurling is a summer sport. Complete waste of money. They do need to up their game with facilities for grub and drink. The ablutions are always the Achilles heel in GAA grounds. Ennis immediately brings nightmares.
saying people know what weather is like isnt good enough to not do up stadiums. A covered area can very much help with atmosphere as sound travels so differently compared to totally open spacesPete_Cavan wrote: »This thing of every county should have something like X stadium should be and then a big provisional ground completely ignores the existing situation. It's the "well I wouldn't start from here" type answer. The reality is stadiums exist as they are and ripping them down and rebuilding to some template will cost more than adapting and upgrading over time. If starting from scratch these template ideas would be great but we have existing stadia and many with existing debt, neither are just going to disappear.
I mean that the GG, yes it is probably over-sized but what is to be gained from demolishing to reduce capacity? It would be cheaper and better value for money to just replace the main stand and have a stadium which can host big games. Most stadia hold around 20k or less and there is nothing to be gained by knocking serviceable stands to rebuild at reduced capacity.
In many cases there is only really one stand that needs full replacement, generally the main stand. A roofed seated stand, plenty of well maintained toilets, accessible shops and good facilities for players are required here. In some cases this can be achieved by upgrading the existing stand, Clare had a plan to give the main stand at CP a fairly major overhaul, don't know if it went ahead. In some cases, like Newbridge, you have to start again.
Terraces most places are generally fine and if not, most can be brought up to a reasonable standard relatively cheaply. Roofs over terraces are a nicetto have but not necessary, people know what the weather will be like before leaving home and dress accordingly. Umbrellas can also be used, particularly if the terrace isn't full. I don't think roof makes much differencey in terms of atmosphere, unless the space is fully enclosed, the sound disperses in all directions anyway.
Nobody is saying every stadium should be a mini croke park or Aviva stadium in terms of facilities but so many need decent work to basic facilities every stadium catering to thousands of people.0 -
What if the Connacht Council/County Boards had poured that money into 1 stadium for the province? You'd have a fantastic venue that you could rent to Connacht Rugby, probably make a few quid from concerts and distribute equally to the counties.
Anyway I'm sure there's plenty of holes to be poked in that re county board funding etc etc but I believe the parochial nature of the country in general leads to these white elephants that get filled 2 or 3 times a year if we're lucky.
That was the plan in Connacht in the early 90s.One ground to be picked and developed as the Provincial ground.
Hyde Park was chosen after a vote but it was never fully followed through.The terracing was done around 92/93 but they never did the stand side until they threw up that half-assed job around 2000.
The original plan was a really good set up but I don't think the funding or appetite from Connacht Council was there to see it through.0 -
The Lost Sheep wrote: »saying people know what weather is like isnt good enough to not do up stadiums. A covered area can very much help with atmosphere as sound travels so differently compared to totally open spaces
Nobody is saying every stadium should be a mini croke park or Aviva stadium in terms of facilities but so many need decent work to basic facilities every stadium catering to thousands of people.
I didn't say anything about not doing up stadiums. I was talking about a reason approach and working with what is there to bring up to a reasonable standard. It's the idea that we can create x professional team stadium everywhere which is effectively not doing up stadiums because the cost involved won't see it happen.
Yes basic facilities need to be provided but I don't think basic includes a roof. I was talking about putting money into the actual basic facilities, toilets, shops, player facilities, etc. In most cases, upgrading these can be done at relatively low cost yet they would significantly improve a match day experience.
Roofs are expensive and such costs are hard to justify, particularly for a terrace if the main stand already has a roof. You can't necessarily put one on an existing structure easily given the amount of additional foundations and structure which would be needed to support the roof. In the majority of cases, the additional cost of adding a roof or rebuilding to have a roof will be greater than the benefits of having the roof. Roofs don't always keep the whole stand dry anyway and the atmosphere thing is clutching at straws. Some of the best atmospheres are on an open terrace on a nice day, doesn't have to be particularly warm, just bright and airy generally puts people in a good mood and adds to enjoyment.0 -
yabadabado wrote: »That was the plan in Connacht in the early 90s.One ground to be picked and developed as the Provincial ground.
Hyde Park was chosen after a vote but it was never fully followed through.The terracing was done around 92/93 but they never did the stand side until they threw up that half-assed job around 2000.
The original plan was a really good set up but I don't think the funding or appetite from Connacht Council was there to see it through.
Late 90's and early 00's a lot of ****e was built. The stand in Walsh Park Waterford being one. This seemed to be the norm for building stands back in the day. While back then this was a huge improvement for Walsh Park from the days of the thin roof shed.
Not being steep, wooden seats, a roof that only covers about 7 rows of seating it has definitely past its sell by date.
Thankfully there is a plan in place to redevelop Walsh park to a 16k stadium, at the time people in Waterford were furious wanting a greenfield site and developing a stadium 30k+
Last year we held our first munster championship games foe the first time since 1995 at a reduced capacity of 11k and yet tickets were still available up to throw in.
Counties should be developing realistic projects.
The only disappointments I have with the development is behind the city goal there will be no terracing as new dressing rooms will be built, I don't like the idea of a 3/4 stadium and the stand is being redeveloped would prefer to see it knocked at rebuilt like the imagine bekow but won't complain due to the current of walsh park.
Speaking of stands the regional sporte centre built a new stand in the early 00's and this design in GAA stadiums would be perfect in either seating or terracing0 -
yabadabado wrote: »That was the plan in Connacht in the early 90s.One ground to be picked and developed as the Provincial ground.
Hyde Park was chosen after a vote but it was never fully followed through.The terracing was done around 92/93 but they never did the stand side until they threw up that half-assed job around 2000.
The original plan was a really good set up but I don't think the funding or appetite from Connacht Council was there to see it through.
Mayo and Galway voted against iirc and then went and developed their own grounds anyway.0 -
Coillte_Bhoy wrote: »Mayo and Galway voted against iirc and then went and developed their own grounds anyway.
They did and them developing their own grounds was always likely to happen with the finals done on a rota basis.0 -
Pete_Cavan wrote: »This thing of every county should have something like X stadium should be and then a big provisional ground completely ignores the existing situation. It's the "well I wouldn't start from here" type answer. The reality is stadiums exist as they are and ripping them down and rebuilding to some template will cost more than adapting and upgrading over time. If starting from scratch these template ideas would be great but we have existing stadia and many with existing debt, neither are just going to disappear.
I mean that the GG, yes it is probably over-sized but what is to be gained from demolishing to reduce capacity? It would be cheaper and better value for money to just replace the main stand and have a stadium which can host big games. Most stadia hold around 20k or less and there is nothing to be gained by knocking serviceable stands to rebuild at reduced capacity.
In many cases there is only really one stand that needs full replacement, generally the main stand. A roofed seated stand, plenty of well maintained toilets, accessible shops and good facilities for players are required here. In some cases this can be achieved by upgrading the existing stand, Clare had a plan to give the main stand at CP a fairly major overhaul, don't know if it went ahead. In some cases, like Newbridge, you have to start again.
Terraces most places are generally fine and if not, most can be brought up to a reasonable standard relatively cheaply. Roofs over terraces are a nicetto have but not necessary, people know what the weather will be like before leaving home and dress accordingly. Umbrellas can also be used, particularly if the terrace isn't full. I don't think roof makes much differencey in terms of atmosphere, unless the space is fully enclosed, the sound disperses in all directions anyway.
I'm not on about tearing down stadiums but there are many in the pipeline to be redeveloped, most with completely illogical and completely useless plans. Can anyone justify Mayo spending 18million on the stand with built when they could have had two smaller stands on both sides with no obstruction for the same money. Theres plans to build a 30k stadium in Casement? Why? 15k is more than sufficient and if built to the right standard it will be more appealing to bring in non gaa public.
Are you saying that when stadiums like Thurles, the GG and Fitzgerald need upgrades in the next decade we should built 40 or 50k again because thats what was there. Tuam is undergoing a minor redevelopement at the moment but rather than having the common sense to build a nice 10k for regular league games and club games they instead are trying to keep it over 20k in the hope of getting a championship game once in a blue moon. Its only over a decade ago that Clare had the bright idea of building a 42k stadium in Ennis. Thanfully that never saw the light of day due to the financial crash.
Its about time we got the thinking cap on and stop being the typical Paddy and planning for next month when we should have a solid plan in place for the next 10years. Its an attitude that has served us poorly in politics and is serving the GAA poorly when it comes to future proofing the organisation.0 -
I'm not on about tearing down stadiums but there are many in the pipeline to be redeveloped, most with completely illogical and completely useless plans. Can anyone justify Mayo spending 18million on the stand with built when they could have had two smaller stands on both sides with no obstruction for the same money. Theres plans to build a 30k stadium in Casement? Why? 15k is more than sufficient and if built to the right standard it will be more appealing to bring in non gaa public.
Are you saying that when stadiums like Thurles, the GG and Fitzgerald need upgrades in the next decade we should built 40 or 50k again because thats what was there. Tuam is undergoing a minor redevelopement at the moment but rather than having the common sense to build a nice 10k for regular league games and club games they instead are trying to keep it over 20k in the hope of getting a championship game once in a blue moon. Its only over a decade ago that Clare had the bright idea of building a 42k stadium in Ennis. Thanfully that never saw the light of day due to the financial crash.
Its about time we got the thinking cap on and stop being the typical Paddy and planning for next month when we should have a solid plan in place for the next 10years. Its an attitude that has served us poorly in politics and is serving the GAA poorly when it comes to future proofing the organisation.
Casement (like most things up north) has been distorted by politics and other nonsense, soccer and rugby got stadiums redeveloped and the GAA was happy to take the NI Exe money to get a new stadium for themselves. The plans were over the top and again influenced by other factors (GAA needing a big/better stadium than soccer and rugby, etc.) I don't think you would find anyone who wouldn't say the whole thing is a cluster**** from start to finish but the same situation doesn't exist anywhere else. I really don't thing there are stadiums "many in the pipeline to be redeveloped, most with completely illogical and completely useless plans", that pipeline ended a long time ago. You refer to a plan for CP in Ennis but that is long dead and a more modest redevelopment happened.
Nobody is trying to justify the money spent on the stand in McHale Park but unless you have a time machine, we can't change it. This is what I was talking about with the "I wouldn't start from here" answer. Unless you want to knock the lot and rebuild like some Bundesliga stadium, we have live with what we have. In the majority of cases, replacing a stand is all that can realistically achievable in terms of big investment and patching up whatever else is there. Whatever else is generally a terrace and once it complies with basic standards it will suffice. You seem fixated on capacity, in most stadiums the capacity comes from the terraces, demolishing a terrace to rebuild a smaller terrace just to get to a capacity you agree with is madness. The existing capacity costs nothing, even if it isn't used.
The likes of Semple and GG have the capacity they have and reducing them would involve tearing down the stadium, the very thing you said you weren't advocating. Both could do with replacing a stand in the next decade but that wouldn't make a big difference to overall capacity. I am saying any new stand should focus on providing top facilities at the expense of capacity but either would still be 40+. If you want to substantially reduce capacity, you are rebuilding almost the entire stadium, that makes absolutely no sense.
I think most County Boards have moved on from the big project plans of the Celtic Tiger years, you don't seem to have. You are the one talking about new professional team stadiums which cost €20m. The reality is smaller investments on individual stands are what will be happening going forward.0 -
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Pete_Cavan wrote: »This thing of every county should have something like X stadium should be and then a big provisional ground completely ignores the existing situation. It's the "well I wouldn't start from here" type answer. The reality is stadiums exist as they are and ripping them down and rebuilding to some template will cost more than adapting and upgrading over time. If starting from scratch these template ideas would be great but we have existing stadia and many with existing debt, neither are just going to disappear.
I mean that the GG, yes it is probably over-sized but what is to be gained from demolishing to reduce capacity? It would be cheaper and better value for money to just replace the main stand and have a stadium which can host big games. Most stadia hold around 20k or less and there is nothing to be gained by knocking serviceable stands to rebuild at reduced capacity.
In many cases there is only really one stand that needs full replacement, generally the main stand. A roofed seated stand, plenty of well maintained toilets, accessible shops and good facilities for players are required here. In some cases this can be achieved by upgrading the existing stand, Clare had a plan to give the main stand at CP a fairly major overhaul, don't know if it went ahead. In some cases, like Newbridge, you have to start again.
Terraces most places are generally fine and if not, most can be brought up to a reasonable standard relatively cheaply. Roofs over terraces are a nicetto have but not necessary, people know what the weather will be like before leaving home and dress accordingly. Umbrellas can also be used, particularly if the terrace isn't full. I don't think roof makes much differencey in terms of atmosphere, unless the space is fully enclosed, the sound disperses in all directions anyway.
One thing that I really dislike about the Gaelic Grounds is the absence of a 'back' on the seats in the stand. I think it might be the only stand I have seen that in. A small thing but irritates the hell out of me!0 -
Pete_Cavan wrote: »Casement (like most things up north) has been distorted by politics and other nonsense, soccer and rugby got stadiums redeveloped and the GAA was happy to take the NI Exe money to get a new stadium for themselves. The plans were over the top and again influenced by other factors (GAA needing a big/better stadium than soccer and rugby, etc.) I don't think you would find anyone who wouldn't say the whole thing is a cluster**** from start to finish but the same situation doesn't exist anywhere else. I really don't thing there are stadiums "many in the pipeline to be redeveloped, most with completely illogical and completely useless plans", that pipeline ended a long time ago. You refer to a plan for CP in Ennis but that is long dead and a more modest redevelopment happened.
Nobody is trying to justify the money spent on the stand in McHale Park but unless you have a time machine, we can't change it. This is what I was talking about with the "I wouldn't start from here" answer. Unless you want to knock the lot and rebuild like some Bundesliga stadium, we have live with what we have. In the majority of cases, replacing a stand is all that can realistically achievable in terms of big investment and patching up whatever else is there. Whatever else is generally a terrace and once it complies with basic standards it will suffice. You seem fixated on capacity, in most stadiums the capacity comes from the terraces, demolishing a terrace to rebuild a smaller terrace just to get to a capacity you agree with is madness. The existing capacity costs nothing, even if it isn't used.
The likes of Semple and GG have the capacity they have and reducing them would involve tearing down the stadium, the very thing you said you weren't advocating. Both could do with replacing a stand in the next decade but that wouldn't make a big difference to overall capacity. I am saying any new stand should focus on providing top facilities at the expense of capacity but either would still be 40+. If you want to substantially reduce capacity, you are rebuilding almost the entire stadium, that makes absolutely no sense.
I think most County Boards have moved on from the big project plans of the Celtic Tiger years, you don't seem to have. You are the one talking about new professional team stadiums which cost €20m. The reality is smaller investments on individual stands are what will be happening going forward.
Not necessary true, as there can be maintenance costs even if they are not used.
Interestingly some football clubs have actually reduced capacity in their stadiums to improve atmosphere and provide a better quality stadium to their fans. Juventus have done this with their new stadium and Inter and AC Milan are planning to do this with the San Siro redevelopment/New Stadium. Roma and Lazio also have plans for new smaller stadiums then the one they're currently in.1 -
TCDStudent1 wrote: »One thing that I really dislike about the Gaelic Grounds is the absence of a 'back' on the seats in the stand. I think it might be the only stand I have seen that in. A small thing but irritates the hell out of me!
Most of the main stand in Wexford Park is benches with no back and the uncovered stand is just concrete benches. Some GAA stadiums do not provide much in the way of comfort with regards to seats.1 -
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A thought just struck me there.. With all the gaa pitches lying idle would it be a money generating idea for a club to hold a drive in cinema experience with a series of classics showing on a giant screen.. Guess it wouldn't be feasible with insurance and having to protect the playing surface0
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Not necessary true, as there can be maintenance costs even if they are not used.
Interestingly some football clubs have actually reduced capacity in their stadiums to improve atmosphere and provide a better quality stadium to their fans. Juventus have done this with their new stadium and Inter and AC Milan are planning to do this with the San Siro redevelopment/New Stadium. Roma and Lazio also have plans for new smaller stadiums then the one they're currently in.
Maintenance costs will remain with any replacement stand/stadium so they just have to be accepted. The maintenance costs for a concrete terrace are pretty low anyway and not really related to the capacity of the stand.
The Italian clubs want to own their own stadiums and get out of the municipal stadiums which are not financially beneficial for them. Most are large stadiums with running tracks built ahead of Italia 90. The municipality who own them generally spend the minimum on the stadium, they just want to collect rent. The clubs want to control their own stadiums where they keep all the revenue and generate additional revenues. The smaller size is also influenced by smaller attendances, lower construction costs and the fact that other revenue streams are available beyond the ticket cost from food/drink/merchandise. It is not relevant to GAA stadiums.0 -
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Pete_Cavan wrote: »Casement (like most things up north) has been distorted by politics and other nonsense, soccer and rugby got stadiums redeveloped and the GAA was happy to take the NI Exe money to get a new stadium for themselves. The plans were over the top and again influenced by other factors (GAA needing a big/better stadium than soccer and rugby, etc.) I don't think you would find anyone who wouldn't say the whole thing is a cluster**** from start to finish but the same situation doesn't exist anywhere else. I really don't thing there are stadiums "many in the pipeline to be redeveloped, most with completely illogical and completely useless plans", that pipeline ended a long time ago. You refer to a plan for CP in Ennis but that is long dead and a more modest redevelopment happened.
Nobody is trying to justify the money spent on the stand in McHale Park but unless you have a time machine, we can't change it. This is what I was talking about with the "I wouldn't start from here" answer. Unless you want to knock the lot and rebuild like some Bundesliga stadium, we have live with what we have. In the majority of cases, replacing a stand is all that can realistically achievable in terms of big investment and patching up whatever else is there. Whatever else is generally a terrace and once it complies with basic standards it will suffice. You seem fixated on capacity, in most stadiums the capacity comes from the terraces, demolishing a terrace to rebuild a smaller terrace just to get to a capacity you agree with is madness. The existing capacity costs nothing, even if it isn't used.
The likes of Semple and GG have the capacity they have and reducing them would involve tearing down the stadium, the very thing you said you weren't advocating. Both could do with replacing a stand in the next decade but that wouldn't make a big difference to overall capacity. I am saying any new stand should focus on providing top facilities at the expense of capacity but either would still be 40+. If you want to substantially reduce capacity, you are rebuilding almost the entire stadium, that makes absolutely no sense.
I think most County Boards have moved on from the big project plans of the Celtic Tiger years, you don't seem to have. You are the one talking about new professional team stadiums which cost €20m. The reality is smaller investments on individual stands are what will be happening going forward.
How do you explain the bolded bit. If I have any existing stand thats crappy and holds 15000 people, surely when I renovate it I should build a smaller stand with better facilities, as the ground evolves if there is a sound plan in plan you end up with a properly sized stadium with proper infrastructure. Its not rocket science.0 -
How do you explain the bolded bit. If I have any existing stand thats crappy and holds 15000 people, surely when I renovate it I should build a smaller stand with better facilities, as the ground evolves if there is a sound plan in plan you end up with a properly sized stadium with proper infrastructure. Its not rocket science.
I don't think there are any 15,000 seater stands apart from CP and PUC, the main stand in Semple might be close but any others will be a good bit smaller. Yes capacity could be reduced when replacing a crappy stand but if it is the main stand in a stadium you will want to accommodate a certain number. If you are providing player facilities, medical area, media facilities, CB office space, etc. you need a structure a of a certain size.
What time period are you talking about the ground evolving over? In most stadiums terracing provides the bulk of the capacity. Terraces are basically large masses of concrete, they last a very long time and can be repaired or sections replaced at low cost if necessary. Most terraces will continue to suffice for a very long time to come. The sound plan you refer to will be on the go for a very long time before you get to your properly sized stadium, in the meantime the existing size will do with facility upgrades. Properly sized stadium with proper infrastructure will cost a lot more than existing size with proper infrastructure. Its not rocket science.0 -
Pete_Cavan wrote: »I don't think there are any 15,000 seater stands apart from CP and PUC, the main stand in Semple might be close but any others will be a good bit smaller. Yes capacity could be reduced when replacing a crappy stand but if it is the main stand in a stadium you will want to accommodate a certain number. If you are providing player facilities, medical area, media facilities, CB office space, etc. you need a structure a of a certain size.
What time period are you talking about the ground evolving over? In most stadiums terracing provides the bulk of the capacity. Terraces are basically large masses of concrete, they last a very long time and can be repaired or sections replaced at low cost if necessary. Most terraces will continue to suffice for a very long time to come. The sound plan you refer to will be on the go for a very long time before you get to your properly sized stadium, in the meantime the existing size will do with facility upgrades. Properly sized stadium with proper infrastructure will cost a lot more than existing size with proper infrastructure. Its not rocket science.
The Gaelic grounds has 12,000 seats in the uncovered stand. Terraces are perfect for the GAA. The revenue generated from food and drink and merchandise needs to be developed in all GAA stadiums. However if we think we ll ever be able to match billion dollar stadiums in the USA then get real.. Weve toncut our cloth to suit0 -
Parc Y Scarlets was built in 2008 for £23 million.
15k seats, hospitality and good facilities.
That shouldn't be beyond us, I don't think anyone is expecting Leitrim to throw up a SoFi Stadium equivalent as you're suggesting.0 -
Parc Y Scarlets was built in 2008 for £23 million.
15k seats, hospitality and good facilities.
That shouldn't be beyond us, I don't think anyone is expecting Leitrim to throw up a SoFi Stadium equivalent as you're suggesting.
Beyond who? Scale that up to GAA stadium size, add inflation etc. and you're talking €30 Million+ What county could afford that, even with grants and government funding? What would the payback be?
That's before we even get to the fact every county apparently needs a similar stadium.
I'd advise everyone throwing up these random foreign stadia to look at the plans for Páirc Tailteann. A GAA project planned in Ireland in the modern day with Irish prices. Phase 1 consists of floodlight installation and the construction of a new stand and dressing rooms without hospitality/ concessions etc. It's not even intended to be the main stand.
The cost for that-just 1 phase covering 1 side of the stadium- is estimated at €12.6 Million and will actually reduce our capacity. And there's more expensive stages to come. The overall project will be about €40 Million if it's ever completed, and would be a pretty modest functional stadium of 20'000.
Lads throwing up examples of expensive smaller stadia built by professional sporting bodies in other countries, at 15 years ago's prices, then saying "Every county needs one of these, and it could be built for pocket change" really have no grasp of the reality of these things.1 -
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Parc Y Scarlets was built in 2008 for £23 million.
15k seats, hospitality and good facilities.
That shouldn't be beyond us, I don't think anyone is expecting Leitrim to throw up a SoFi Stadium equivalent as you're suggesting.
The business case for PYS was guaranteed mid-teens number of home games every year where they were expecting ~10k attendance, GAA don't have that. It has also hosted a few soccer matches. Attendances for Scarlets have been very disappointing, if they could do it all again I'm sure they would scale it back.
Factor in demolition costs, inflation and the additional length of enclosing a GAA pitch. Look at the project costs for Meath, Kildare and Waterford stands under LSSIF Stream 2. For St Conleths - Construction of a new 3000 seated stand including changing facilities and public toilets. Installation of floodlighting, upgrade works to pitch including a new playing surface - cost €10.5m. The vast majority of that cost is the stand. Those type of stand replacements are once off projects and required a substantial amount of taxpayer money. No CB will have the money to build such a stand and then build another similar stand on the other side. To think CBs can build something like PYS, even over the course of 20 years, is fantasy.
My point is, if a CB can get the money can be gotten together for a new stand, they are doing very well. They won't get the money together for another stand, nevermind three more. You might get a LSSIF grant once, but you won't be getting another. Existing terraces will just remain, the cost has already been incurred and it will cost more to demolish and build something else. Adequate toilets/shops can be provided behind for a fraction of the cost of a new stand. How you think I am suggesting "Leitrim to throw up a SoFi Stadium equivalent" is beyond me, your PYS suggestion is much closer to that.1 -
Theres some sense being spoken here. The only thing every county should have are a good set of Floodlights. Not the ones for training at clubs. A proper set is about 1.5million I think. The stadiums are a red herring at this stage. Crowds are going to be down post Wuhan virus. Consolidation is the word. The GAA wont have the cash to even contemplate upgrades.
Has anyone even mention Croke Park. It's getting old and starting to look abit tatty. I'd rather see money being put into its upkeep rather than we let it deteriorate and rebuild it in 20 years.0 -
A high standard of pitch and proper floodlights should be at every county ground.To get the very best set up it would be 2m to 3m .
Proper players ,supporters and media facilities are needed,some of the facilities are downright disgraceful.
Its alright saying build a new stand etc but these aren't used enough or near capacity often enough to plough 15m + into them.
Some lower cost upgrades would make a huge difference to grounds especially in the winter without plunging county boards into huge debt.0 -
Since Pairc Ui Chaoimh reopened the highest attendance at a GAA match there has been 34,607 at Cork v Limerick in 2018.
There's only been 2 other GAA games in PuC where the attendence has been over 30,000 - 31,753 at Wexford v Waterford in 2017 and 30,274 at Cork v Tipperary in 2017.
Capacity is 45,000 since the re-development and it's been open almost 4 years at this stage.
How much would Cork GAA have saved if they built a 35,000 seater as opposed to a 45,000 seater?1 -
Boom__Boom wrote: »Since Pairc Ui Chaoimh reopened the highest attendance at a GAA match there has been 34,607 at Cork v Limerick in 2018.
There's only been 2 other GAA games in PuC where the attendence has been over 30,000 - 31,753 at Wexford v Waterford in 2017 and 30,274 at Cork v Tipperary in 2017.
Capacity is 45,000 since the re-development and it's been open almost 4 years at this stage.
How much would Cork GAA have saved if they built a 35,000 seater as opposed to a 45,000 seater?
They'd hardly have entertained the notion, considering they were talking about hosting yearly sellout concerts and All Ireland Semi Finals.0 -
BloodyBill wrote: »The Gaelic grounds has 12,000 seats in the uncovered stand. Terraces are perfect for the GAA. The revenue generated from food and drink and merchandise needs to be developed in all GAA stadiums. However if we think we ll ever be able to match billion dollar stadiums in the USA then get real.. Weve toncut our cloth to suit
See this is the kind of crap post that always turns up in a thread like this. I thow up an example of the doncaster stadium which could be with or without terrace, its up to the county. That somehow has now been translated into a billion dollar stadium like they have in america and we need to get real. I think theres only one person who needs to get real when they introduce an argument like this.1 -
Boom__Boom wrote: »Since Pairc Ui Chaoimh reopened the highest attendance at a GAA match there has been 34,607 at Cork v Limerick in 2018.
There's only been 2 other GAA games in PuC where the attendence has been over 30,000 - 31,753 at Wexford v Waterford in 2017 and 30,274 at Cork v Tipperary in 2017.
Capacity is 45,000 since the re-development and it's been open almost 4 years at this stage.
How much would Cork GAA have saved if they built a 35,000 seater as opposed to a 45,000 seater?
Or even a 25k stadium. Its obvious it wasn't needed. Building a stadium to cater for the once in a blue moon event is the way things are done. Lads are denying its happening here yet its still going on. Cork shouldn't even have built a 20k stadium in my opinion given the use it gets. 90 million pissed away and a county that's struggling to get back to the top table in hurling never mind football. Absolutely nuts.
There is no divine right for every fair weather supporter to get a ticket for big matches. It would generate more interest and revenue if there was a scarcity mindset and people actually had to plan to get tickets rather than rocking up on the day on a whim. Meath building 20k is another waste of money. When has there ever been 20k at a meath league game. 10k is more than big enough. Kildare too.0 -
CrabRevolution wrote: »They'd hardly have entertained the notion, considering they were talking about hosting yearly sellout concerts and All Ireland Semi Finals.
Majority of the people at a concert would be on the pitch so a 35k seater stadium would have made no difference there.
The talk of holding All-Ireland semis in Pairc Ui Chaoimh was pie-in-the-sky stuff given the long-term corporate boxes deals in Croke Park.
The thing is it's very hard to see a situation where Pairc Ui Chaoimh ever gets a sell-out for a GAA match. The only possibility I can see is if demand for a double-header gets massively misjudged and there's some reason the two games aren't split on a Saturday/Sunday basisBuilding a stadium to cater for the once in a blue moon event is the way things are done. Lads are denying its happening here yet its still going on.
I'll be shocked if the same thing doesn't end up happening with Casement in the North - it's a complete mess already and there are clearly people on the Ulster Council who want capacity as big as possible no matter what.0 -
BloodyBill wrote: »Has anyone even mention Croke Park. It's getting old and starting to look abit tatty. I'd rather see money being put into its upkeep rather than we let it deteriorate and rebuild it in 20 years.
Couldn’t agree more. Look Croker still is excellent but yeah it’s starting to look a bit old in recent years. Hogan seats are very discoloured and the odd few new replaced seats on the upper do stand out. I saw a picture of the whole stadium about 10 years ago and the seats look very well. Always found the shops area of the upper stands a horrible place to be when it’s a bad day. Rain pouring in on top of you etc. Just always thought if there was some sort of protection behind the upper stands and replace the seats things would be better. Not even like a whole new wall but even like some plexi glass or something. Other than those small cosmetic issues its still a quality stadium. I’ve been to some huge stadiums in Europe and even they have cosmetic issues. Nou Camp, Old Trafford and Celtic Park would spring to mind.0 -
Those 3 stadiums you mentioned are all in worse shape than Croker.Only really cosmetic stuff in Croker imo ,those 3 need a lot more imo.1
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