Lone parents to be targeted in budget 2012

Max Power1

Welease wrote: »

The arguement is that it already exists.. You can only claim for benefits you are entitled to, so therefore there is a ceiling.. Not true - there should be a max, whats to stop fraud and we need to create the reality that the dole is a lot lower than minimum wage to entice people off the culture of benefits

If the ceiling is considered too high, then it could be lowered by how do you do so in an equitable manner?
You set a maximum amount, which would be the JSA amount + 2kids (no need to subsidize football teams)

Should a person with 0 kids get the same as someone with 2 kids. No obviously, but someone with two kids should get the same as someone with more than two kids
Should someone with 2 kids get the same as someone with 2 heavily dependent physically and mentally handicapped children. Yes
etc.

Most don't agree that they should not get the same as their circumstances are vastly different. So then you start setting limits for each portion, and you end you end up back where we are today....
No, in my opinion you limit the amount per person and per household unit and that is equitable.

.
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campo

Max Power1 wrote: »

I think there should be a cap on SW benefits that people can recieve.

Something like 250-300 per week. A similar scheme is being implemented in the UK.
Rather than "cut this cut that" it seems more equitable. Thoughts?

+1

Welease

Max Power1 wrote: »

.
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So detail it out more then

200-300, Is that direct JSB/JSA only with child benefit for 2 max?
Rent Allowance gone?
Disability Carers allowances gone etc?

And it would beg the question, if someone with 3 kids can live on that amount and send kids to school etc. why would we be paying a single person the same amount? Isn't that a waste of money..

Icepick

hardCopy wrote: »

How do you police this though?

Girl gives name of random bloke who moved to Australia, how do welfare know if she's lying? They can't send welfare officers to Aus to DNA test him.

No random names. PPS numbers, name, address. If the claim is not confirmed by the father, DNA test is required. If the alleged father left the country (very small amount of cases), you can still go after them.
There would still be cheaters but the chance to cheat would be much lower.

sickpuppy

Would free abortions not help here?
Or sterilisations.
So many scumbags have a life of handouts and there kids do the same grim cycle which needs to be broken.

anymore

Suryavarman wrote: »

As far as I can see, the only way teen pregnancy is going to go down is by giving secondary school students free condoms. The problem with that is that parents will be outraged by the attempts to pressurise their children into having sex.

I suggest saying to parents they will have to accept all child rearing costs until thier children who have had the babies reach 18 years of age would have far more effect !
By the way, it is a myth that all teens are having sex, they are not. As for free condoms, if pre teens can have thier own mobiles etc, i suggest teens can afford condoms.

fliball123

campo wrote: »

Of course there is a lot of "real" single parents out there who need and deserve this benefit but as a country we can no longer afford to keep the fraudsters in the lifestyle they have but the question is how do we stop this, I know of a couple where the GF was claiming lone parents allowance and living with partner who was on JSA and she was also getting rent allowance she then gets pregnant with a 2nd child when the social questioned her about it being the same man who fathered the 1st child all she said was she got drunk one night and met up with him and well these things happen and they accepted this????.

Unfortuantly there is no silver bullet to fix these issues but greater minds then I need to come up with something as they are costing me you and the real single parents millions each each year.

And regards to reporting these people in theory I do agree with you but lets be honest it is very hard to report a good friend or family member I dont agree with what they do but would prefer if it was the social who copped onto it without my phone call

Sorry there is a silver bullet for this get these lone parents to put the other parents name on the childs birth cert and chase these people for the money

not yet

black francis wrote: »

The whole thing makes me queasy.

Yes, the lone parent allowance is being abused by a significant number of recipitants - even worse, it makes it financially attractive for parents to raise their children as 'lone' parents, rather than as part of a couple.
So no argument from me on reforming the payment.

But, as per usual with the Government, they are taking the easy choices - slash €10 of child benefit for everyone whether you're a millionaire or destitute, then reduce the qualification age of lone parent payment allowance across the board.

People on here saying that they would clap Burton on the back should instead ask her why she's not tackling the ridiculous pay and conditions of those at the top of the public service.

Give it a fcuking rest would ya.............
Anyone who lives in a working class area knows this is rampant. The whole of the PS pay bill is approx 17billion the welfare bill is 21billion, I know which gives the most value to the country, Are you telling me that a nurse is not worth 50k a year when someone who knows how to play the game on welfare can get as much as 30k

K-9

The 80% must be the immigrants, yeah, that explains it.

anymore

not yet wrote: »

Give it a fcuking rest would ya.............
Anyone who lives in a working class area knows this is rampant. The whole of the PS pay bill is approx 17billion the welfare bill is 21billion, I know which gives the most value to the country, Are you telling me that a nurse is not worth 50k a year when someone who knows how to play the game on welfare can get as much as 30k

Whether a nurse is worth € 50 or not is not relevant to whether people should get as much as € 30 k on the dole - and I am not defending getting that much dole I hasten to add. |The reality is that there definitely are nursing jobs not worth that much.

Frowzy

fliball123 wrote: »

And whats your problem I didnt start the PS debate within this thread..but the problem here is that no matter what cuts, tax increases are going forward they are going to be linked to whats happening with the public sector..Its the only area of spend that is immune from wage cuts...

PS pay is not immune from wage cuts!!!!

I'm a public service employee and have taken two pay cuts which brings me back to where I was in about 2006/2007, which was much less than private sector employees at the time, nobody felt sorry for me then....

As regards the pension I'll supposedly get in 35 years time, I'm paying through the nose for it now, more than I'll ever get back, plus I'm paying an additional tax for it (WTF)!!!!

Back on topic I know that there has been a huge crack down on lone parent allowance in my area anyway. Lots of unscheduled house visits, early in the day to catch people out. This is the way to handle it! I would be afraid of a minority (the 20% if figures are to be believed) being put on the breadline.

The Social Welfare Department was renamed the Department for Social Protection. We need to ensure that the most vulnerable in our society are protected, unfortunately the most vulnerable are mostly always children.

Dodge

anymore wrote: »

Whether a nurse is worth € 50 or not is not relevant to whether people should get as much as € 30 k on the dole - and I am not defending getting that much dole I hasten to add. |The reality is that there definitely are nursing jobs not worth that much.

Wait, do you think all nurses get paid 50k? :eek:

caseyann

K-9 wrote: »

The 80% must be the immigrants, yeah, that explains it.

What?

K-9

caseyann wrote: »

What?

Twas a joke.

If it is 80% it must be them immigrants as Mr. Scully would put it.

Godge

campo wrote: »

This payment really gets on my goat if i am been honest and it really needs a radical shake up there is loads out there abusing it and I bet we all know at least one couple who are claiming this benefit.

It is hard t blame them though because the honest hard working couple get nothing from the state let me tell you my story I work and get paid what I would consider a nice wage ( above 20k but below 40k ) and my partner she works but is on a low income just marginally above min pay.
So we recently had a baby and it is nearly time for her to go back to work.
Now if she goes back work full time half her wages would go on childcare and that means if she stayed at home and claimed JSA it would work out better finacially, she wanted to go back part time work 3 days and claim 3 days but social ays no cant do that as it is youor choice to cut hours and they wont be for the other 3 days ( fair enough you might say but is paying out 3 days better then paying out for 6 ).
So basically every corner we take we are going to be down money BUT if she decided to claim lone parents allowance and pretend we broke up she could quit her job get the LPA, Medical card , Rent allowance and god only knows what else just like many people are doing at the moment now we would never do this but it is a complete joke that in this country you would be finacially better off not working and claiming that you are a lone parent then working and paying taxes and trying to do everything the honest way......rant over

This is a real honest post showing up the issue clearly. You are better off being a lone parent than admitting the truth that you are in a relationship and getting a job.

sup_dude wrote: »

Just a quick question based on the nature of majority of the replies in here... are any of you actually lone parents and therefore understand the effect it would have on them?

We cannot have a situation where you are better off on welfare as a lone parent than at work and admitting you are in a relationship.

Pay has gone down for most over the last few years, both public and private sector, to the extent that cuts to welfare are needed in order to retain the incentive to work.

I have previously suggested that we abolish child benefit and replace with direct provision of school books, school meals, subsidised child-care for 2-4 years old and subsidised after-school care for over 4s, with the subsidised child-care available to parents who work.

This could be replicated with lone parents. Once a child reaches 2, the lone parent allowance ceases and the child becomes eligible for subsidised child-care (subsidised even more for lone parents than joint parents) subject to the lone parent being in employment and ditto all of the other things mentioned above. For the lone parent not in employment, rate and benefits drop to the level of JSA. What all of this combined does is create incentives to get a job while still providing a lifeline to those in trouble.

Welfare should always provide incentives to work.

hardCopy

Icepick wrote: »

No random names. PPS numbers, name, address. If the claim is not confirmed by the father, DNA test is required. If the alleged father left the country (very small amount of cases), you can still go after them.
There would still be cheaters but the chance to cheat would be much lower.

The problem with this idea though is that the mother won't know these details if the father wants nothing to do with her.

Also the mother could deliberately give the name of some random bloke, should he then be hauled in for a DNA test, or chased across Australia?

anymore

Frowzy wrote: »

PS pay is not immune from wage cuts!!!!

I'm a public service employee and have taken two pay cuts which brings me back to where I was in about 2006/2007, which was much less than private sector employees at the time, nobody felt sorry for me then....

As regards the pension I'll supposedly get in 35 years time, I'm paying through the nose for it now, more than I'll ever get back, plus I'm paying an additional tax for it (WTF)!!!!

Back on topic I know that there has been a huge crack down on lone parent allowance in my area anyway. Lots of unscheduled house visits, early in the day to catch people out. This is the way to handle it! I would be afraid of a minority (the 20% if figures are to be believed) being put on the breadline.

The Social Welfare Department was renamed the Department for Social Protection. We need to ensure that the most vulnerable in our society are protected, unfortunately the most vulnerable are mostly always children.

Sorry from what I see whqt you are paying for your PS pension wont even remotely come close to financing it.

Frowzy

anymore wrote: »

Sorry from what I see whqt you are paying for your PS pension wont even remotely come close to financing it.

See this is where the BS comes from. If I were President that statement might be true. Unfortunately I'm just a paper pusher so it's rubbish......

anymore

Frowzy wrote: »

See this is where the BS comes from. If I were President that statement might be true. Unfortunately I'm just a paper pusher so it's rubbish......

No it wouldn't relatively speaking there is no difference !
In fact in some cases the persons individual contribution wont even cover the cost of the lump sum given not to mind the actual pension.
provide me with figures if you like if I am wrong,

irishh_bob

Dodge wrote: »

Wait, do you think all nurses get paid 50k? :eek:

perhaps not today but prior to the cuts in 2008 , the average nurses salary was in excess of 50 k per year gross

the average garda salary was 1200 euro per week prior to the start of cuts

Frowzy

anymore wrote: »

No it wouldn't relatively speaking there is no difference !
In fact in some cases the persons individual contribution wont even cover the cost of the lump sum given not to mind the actual pension.
provide me with figures if you like if I am wrong,

Well I hope I get the pension you think I'm getting!!!

Does anyone who are constantly berating the PS realise that all of our benefits were cut during the so called boom years? No such thing as A1 stamp for us grass roots workers anymore. We won't be getting what the "fat cats" are getting now.

Don't suppose anybody had properly researched their facts and now we're expected to prove it (sigh).....

If half as much energy was given to chasing developers we wouldn't be in the trouble we're in now....

Ask any student who's still waiting on a grant decision / anyone waiting for a driving test / anyone who has called the Garda but not been answered / anyone sitting on a hospital trolley waiting to be assessed if there are too many workers in the PS and you might realise what services you're looking to have cut.

p1akuw47h5r3it

samsham wrote: »

Budget 2012 is to introduce major changes to the single parent welfare scheme in December's budget. It is believed the age of qualifying for the benefit will be reduced to a parent with a child under seven from what is now 14. It is believed 80% of people claiming this benefit live with partners. I for one will be one of those clapping Joan Burton on the back for finally getting welfare's act together. It has to be said it's sad that real lone parents will lose out because of the abuse of others. On the other hand as a society we should be looking at ways of preventing this behavior, we send money to to third world countries to promote condom use, yet here we have 15 year old children becoming mums and dads, which can only lead to disaster. We are beginning to follow in Britian's footsteps and down the road of children dragged up by children to be lawless lazy burdens on an already overstretched welfare budget. Of course there are the exceptions, But that's what they are.

Would this affect a parent whose husband/wife died?

passarellaie

These loan parent who are they was it the immaculate conception or did they have a father.If it wasnt the immaculate conception make him pay Ireland inc cant pay anymore.

Liam Byrne

Surely 2nd, 3rd & 4th kids are progressively cheaper due to economies of scale (food & babysitter) and recycling hand-me-down clothes?


If you want a child, make sure you can afford it.
If there's an "accident" the state helps out -for the child's sake
If there's another accident then no handouts

And any handouts should be vouchers for the essentials, not cash.

bamboozle

Frowzy wrote: »

Well I hope I get the pension you think I'm getting!!!

Does anyone who are constantly berating the PS realise that all of our benefits were cut during the so called boom years? No such thing as A1 stamp for us grass roots workers anymore. We won't be getting what the "fat cats" are getting now.

Don't suppose anybody had properly researched their facts and now we're expected to prove it (sigh).....

If half as much energy was given to chasing developers we wouldn't be in the trouble we're in now....

Ask any student who's still waiting on a grant decision / anyone waiting for a driving test / anyone who has called the Garda but not been answered / anyone sitting on a hospital trolley waiting to be assessed if there are too many workers in the PS and you might realise what services you're looking to have cut.

you do realise that firstly you are getting paid for the job you're doing and secondly if you're not happy with it, quit and find a job in the private sector?

According to the PS union guy Geraghty on newstalk this morning there are far more professionals in the PS hence the higher wages, if this is the case all these highly qualified professional would have no problem find a job out in the public sector.
If you dont want to quit your job perhaps you could put your toys back in the pram and appreciate that there are 400k on the dole who would love a job in the PS with the benefits that comes with it.
Finally i do agree with you that more energy should be put into chasing property developers, similarly more energy should have been made by the Office of the FInancial Regulator in regulating the banks who were handing out money to these developers.

Frowzy

bamboozle wrote: »

you do realise that firstly you are getting paid for the job you're doing and secondly if you're not happy with it, quit and find a job in the private sector?

If you dont want to quit your job perhaps you could put your toys back in the pram and appreciate that there are 400k on the dole who would love a job in the PS with the benefits that comes developers.

FFS, talk about damned if you do and damned if you don't....

I'm not complaining!!!! I wouldn't stay in my job if I wasn't satisfied... I never mentioned leaving, I'm sick of these topics turning into a bash the PS workers.

I bet you're one of those people who give the tellers in the bank a hard time when you go into the bank but shake the managers hand when you meet him in the golf club!

I worked in the PS through the boom because it was close to home and more family friendly than the private sector which I had worked in previously. I don't blame you for my earning less during those years, but if you think that the country is in the state that its in because I have a permanent pensionable job then that's something I can live with, d'ya want a picture for your dart board? Strand of hair for the voodoo doll?

anymore

Frowzy wrote: »

FFS, talk about damned if you do and damned if you don't....

I'm not complaining!!!! I wouldn't stay in my job if I wasn't satisfied... I never mentioned leaving, I'm sick of these topics turning into a bash the PS workers.

I bet you're one of those people who give the tellers in the bank a hard time when you go into the bank but shake the managers hand when you meet him in the golf club!

I worked in the PS through the boom because it was close to home and more family friendly than the private sector which I had worked in previously. I don't blame you for my earning less during those years, but if you think that the country is in the state that its in because I have a permanent pensionable job then that's something I can live with, d'ya want a picture for your dart board? Strand of hair for the voodoo doll?

Well said frowzy and so typical of those in the PS who basically mock and jeer at those in the private sector who point out the absrudiby of the pay and conditions of Ireland's overpaid and underperforming PS's
There have been some bright aspects to this recession and one is seeing the PS squirm

Frowzy

anymore wrote: »

Well said frowzy and so typical of those in the PS who basically mock and jeer at those in the private sector who point out the absrudiby of the pay and conditions of Ireland's overpaid and underperforming PS's
There have been some bright aspects to this recession and one is seeing the PS squirm

See I don't understand that, because I haven't yet seen a post where anyone from the PS has mocked anyone in the private sector. It's actually quite the opposite actually, but I'll debate that when I'm eating a scone while I'm surfing the net on Monday morning! :P

Squirm......? I think not!

anymore

passarellaie wrote: »

These loan parent who are they was it the immaculate conception or did they have a father.If it wasnt the immaculate conception make him pay Ireland inc cant pay anymore.

Well you would have to know thier surname as well ! And maybe even where they live !!!



Ok this pos:)t is a little tingue in cheek..a little !

anymore

bamboozle wrote: »

you do realise that firstly you are getting paid for the job you're doing and secondly if you're not happy with it, quit and find a job in the private sector?

According to the PS union guy Geraghty on newstalk this morning there are far more professionals in the PS hence the higher wages, if this is the case all these highly qualified professional would have no problem find a job out in the public sector.
If you dont want to quit your job perhaps you could put your toys back in the pram and appreciate that there are 400k on the dole who would love a job in the PS with the benefits that comes with it.
Finally i do agree with you that more energy should be put into chasing property developers, similarly more energy should have been made by the Office of the FInancial Regulator in regulating the banks who were handing out money to these developers.

I asked before what is the difference between a degree holder in the Public Library handing books across the counter and a degree holder in Waterstones.easons etc, handing out books across the counter?
A PS friend says € 20,000 !

wolfpawnat

sup_dude wrote: »

Permabear, where did you get that information from? On the contrary, coming as a daughter of a single parent and knowing many single parents, the children of them strive to have a better way of living as they don't want to be single parents themselves because they know how hard it is. They want to go to university and have an proper education to get a proper job but since there's talk of cutting the grants, introducing fees and having a student ID levy, it's becoming near impossible for them as lesser off people. Sure, let the single parents get a job... but their wages will mostly go into child care while they are working. Majority of actual single parents would prefer to work and prefer to have someone there to help look after the kids.

I have to agree here, I was sexually active long after many of my friends, and I was one of the only ones to come from a one parent household. I was one of the only ones to work every weekend, holiday and bank holiday after the age of 14 so that I could afford to do what they were given money for without having to earn it!

I am an unmarried mother, I am single, but I live with the child's father and do not claim the OPFP. So I get JSA + child dependant but I would get so much more were I to claim the OPFP. Needless to say the local CWO is fascinated by my honesty! There are many people take the píss out of the OPFP, but to attack everyone because of the actions of some is not fair!

All that will happen now with the SW abusers is they will just have their children 5-7 years apart!

If people are angry with having the system abused, Report the abusers and don't sit at computer screens and tar everyone with the same brush!

dsmythy

I don't think Permabear once targeted everyone with the same brush in what he wrote. Since he didn't say all children of single parents are the same, stories from people about how they grew up grand in the same situation is irrelevant. If there's studies around showing that children from lone parent families have an equal rate of achievement then show us that to disprove Permabear's claim that children from lone parent familes are more likely to underachieve or find themselves in certain situations in future life.

mistermouse

I would like to see inspectors check out many of the lone parent and other benefit receipients, but I'd also like to see inspectors go into Public Service Buildings and do an audit of who does what on the management and administration side and see who is performing, who is actually needed etc.

Hospitals for example are an amazing example of waste, the frontline are always squeezed and under pressure but there can be a huge amount of managers and admin staff all doing the same thing or nothing.

Weed out the waste and protect those who are needed and need assistance

Its not a PS bash, most of the Public Sector staff know it needs reform and reformed properly. If the CPA was scrapped in the morning the Unions would send out the needed frontline to strike to protect those who aren't need at all, just to hold the country to ransom. The front line staff need to stand up to the waste

tails_naf

wolfpawnat wrote: »

If people are angry with having the system abused, Report the abusers and don't sit at computer screens and tar everyone with the same brush!

If a system relies on reporting abusers of the system - then it's doomed to fail. A system has to be able to prevent abuse to a large degree by itself.

This is why things like ensuring a father is named on the birth cert, and as a result receiving maintenance from the father to support the child should be required. That move right there would have positive effects, both social and economic.

As for finding the co-habiting cases I guess having welfare linked to an address and cross-checking that, plus more checking up / proof of residence, and penalties like SW severely cut when cheating is discovered, would all be deterrents.

tails_naf

coolshannagh28 wrote: »

No real point cutting social welfare in any form , all this money goes straight back into the economy .

This only makes sense if the Irish economy is entirely self-contained - but of course it is not.

Here's what is happening:
Govt borrow 1000 euro from ECB/IMF/Bonds/wherever. Assume for now all of this goes to SW. And sure enough all of it will be spent in shops/pubs/what have you - except:

If all 1000 euro is spent in shops in Ireland - much of this finds its way out of the country - through imported produce being bought, foreign owned stores sending profits back, foreign employees in shops sending money home, people going on holidays who are on SW (yes, it does happen),

The only thing we can guarantee is at least 20% will remain in Ireland due to vat collected (but it's likely much more in fairness).

So lets assume 40% stays in Ireland.
We borrow 1000, 400 stays here. We still have to pay off 1000+interest.

So definitely if we can borrow less in the first place, we will be better off!

cmc2

I can understand why people claim lone parents.... Try and live on 370 euro a week... out of that you have to pay for playschool, car, food, household bills, loans, clothing the lists goes on....Right it is wrong, but some families have to do it to survive..... I am a mother of two working part time and living with my partner who is working two days a week.. If I had the balls to do it, I would... Ireland is one of the most expensive places to live and I dont blame the people...

cmc2

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Surely 2nd, 3rd & 4th kids are progressively cheaper due to economies of scale (food & babysitter) and recycling hand-me-down clothes?


If you want a child, make sure you can afford it.
If there's an "accident" the state helps out -for the child's sake
If there's another accident then no handouts

And any handouts should be vouchers for the essentials, not cash.

Well said...:)

Boskowski

cmc2 wrote: »

I can understand why people claim lone parents.... Try and live on 370 euro a week... out of that you have to pay for playschool, car, food, household bills, loans, clothing the lists goes on....Right it is wrong, but some families have to do it to survive..... I am a mother of two working part time and living with my partner who is working two days a week.. If I had the balls to do it, I would... Ireland is one of the most expensive places to live and I dont blame the people...

Sorry I'm def'ny not trying to sound like an ars*hole but you work parttime and your partner 2 days a week and you have a car and loans and 2 kids and you feel you shouldn't be tight?

Do you think you should live comfortably in that arrangement?
I for myself would expect things to be tight if that was my situation. I wouldn't expect to be in serious trouble but def'ny tight.

gurramok

Reduce the 2 highest expenses for any parent, accommodation and childcare. The first is in the control of the state for Lone Parents and the 2nd is really not. Reduce both costs substantially and then part time mothers will be able to take up full time work as it would be economically viable to do so.

At present, they are caught in this 'poverty trap' as they will lose their RS if they work full time. This encourages abuse of the system which is widespread. Also incentivise marriage as it will discourage the illegal activity of fathers living with the partner on the sly so they would not be penalised for doing so hence encouraging good parenting.