Mass Rail Closing in the Next Decade?

DWCommuter

DWCommuter wrote: »

Absolutely not.

The advice seems to be to stick to my car. I guess I'd better do that, so.

Of course, it begs a question. If sticking to the car is the better option for me - living in Dublin, and travelling to Cork - what chance does anyone have of persuading anyone who currently drives to switch to public transport?

I know the answer, and I think you do as well, so I'm not aiming the question at you. But anyone else? Any of our onboard fans of the railway want to have a go?

foggy_lad

All anyone has to do is compare the two forms of transport along two classic routes, Waterford to Limerick and Limerick to Galway to see that some lines are not logical or feasible and should be closed and lifted and the trackbed ploughed back into the surrounding farmland.

Waterford to Limerick by train runs three times a day each way except Sundays but carries probably less than a coachload in all six trains. now think how much this line costs to upkeep and maintain and how much does it cost to have stations staffed and open for empty trains?

On the other side there are several busses each way every day including Sundays and the bus manages to call at more stops along the route while still being faster than the train and a lot cheaper.

The same situation exists with the Galway-Limerick train and the several faster and cheaper busses which run stopping services as well as express services between the two cities, yet good money is ploughed into lines which have been losing money hand over fist for as many years as they have been operational!

If there is not Mass railway closures there should be a revolution instead and cleans the country of such wastefulness!

Cookie_Monster

OurLadyofKnock wrote: »

Believe it or not I am actually fairly famous outside of Ireland. So your "small thinking" is not relevant here.

Dana?

Lapin

OurLadyofKnock wrote: »

Ireland will never, ever have Nuclear Power because our newspapers journalists are ignorant, hysteria-inducing gob****es who like to play God. Look at the carry on of Myers.........

Just for clarification. Kevin Myers favours nuclear energy.

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/columnists/kevin-myers/kevin-myers-the-cheapest-and-cleanest-form-of-fuel-by-far-nuclear-is-one-all-our-political-parties-oppose-2523003.html

CIE

OurLadyofKnock wrote: »

Dude, Sweden is a very flat country with long, straight stretches of rail line (good for high speed) with a lot of heavy industry, mining and forestry. The nature of their climate makes rail better for long distance transport in winter - which is why their main freight line runs to Narvik inside Norway above the artic circle. They also have direct rail connections into Euro now via Denmark - to supplement the ones into Norway and Finland they already had. Swedish cities are big and well spread apart from one another

Are you feeling okay? Sweden is quite mountainous rather, and Ireland is way flatter. Sweden's railways are very curved with a lot of grades; this is why their fast trains are tilt trains. The X2000 service isn't confined to the southern flatlands.

On this island we only have one major city - Dublin and small regional city Belfast, and the rest are just big towns.

Sweden is nothing like Ireland. One major factor is they have LOTS of Nuclear Power and they can electrify their lines. Ireland will never, ever have Nuclear Power because our newspapers journalists are ignorant, hysteria-inducing gob****es who like to play God. Look at the carry on of Myers and McDonald regarding a small bit of temp. landscaping in Stephen's Green for the DART/Metro interchange. The headbagers calling Joe Duffy actually having political clout in this country - while in any other country they would be ignored as hysterical cranks looking for attention. Here in Ireland all our major political parties formulate policy based on Joe Duffy callers, pathologically-insane newspaper editorials and parish priests in Mayo.

Are you honestly going to continue with comparing Ireland to modern and intelligent societies like Germany and Sweden? These countries also exist for reasons greater than indulging Civil Servants and Semi-State unions. They have a vision - Ireland has none, except to keep the public sector from throwing their toys out of the pram constantly.

Our motorways are some of the best and most modern in the world now. Motorways don't get potholes! They are not boreens which have been widened.

That's ironically is what our rail system is by the way.

For all the faults and slagging the NRA get - if there is one organisation which can look back on the Tiger years and point to real results - it is most certainly the NRA. Our road network is pretty spectacular now - even by any international standards.

One would have to go to the Third World to find a comparison to CIE.

I am not small thinking - I am seeing our nation with a clarity and for the most part - it just ain't pretty.

One wonders where you find time to come up with that much a**e-talk. It's not even funny, if that's what you were shooting for...congratulations for finding more invalid ways to justify the status quo.

If the NRA got "results", didn't they get the funding first? Uh-oh. Bias detection in government. Small thinkers act like they can do nothing about it, again, and make excuses for the politicians they claim to hate so much. Status quo remains.

Electrification is not necessary for 200-km/h service. It's not like the HST never existed (and Ireland already had BREL-built Mark 3s, which they threw away for no reason). For DMU-lovers, there is still the Virgin Voyager, which has a tilting version (and that train would get you from Limerick to Galway way less than two hours)...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKvHvb6Q1NI

CIE

Lapin wrote: »

Just for clarification. Kevin Myers favours nuclear energy.

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/columnists/kevin-myers/kevin-myers-the-cheapest-and-cleanest-form-of-fuel-by-far-nuclear-is-one-all-our-political-parties-oppose-2523003.html

Hmm. Looks like someone might be pwned...pyrrhic though :rolleyes:

corktina

foggy_lad wrote: »

but you cant have business services and student services going one way without having empty trains going in the opposite direction unless you sent a train to cork in the morning and dont send it back until the evening. the well filled trains are usually only well filled one way so the empty trains are already paid for which drives up the overall cost beyond what the customers are prepared to pay for a train service. how many will pay €80 return for a trip to Cork(including luas and taxi/bus transfers)

Business people do want to travel from dublin as well as to it you know. Student travel is at a peak friday evening and sunday evening surely? For the rest of the day, instead of expresses , they could run semi-fasts so that everywhere on route gets some level of service even if only every two or three hours.

corktina

CIE wrote: »

Are you feeling okay? Sweden is quite mountainous rather, and Ireland is way flatter. r]

I wondered about that, but don't know squat about Sweden

OurLadyofKnock

CIE - I suspect some of the of West on Track venterns will be collecting their tax-payer funded first class ticket though the Pearly Gates in the coming years.

May I suggest you send in your CV now - to carry the delusion into the future.

I can't think of anyone more qualified to take up the cause. You're a natural.

Either that or take over Barry Kenny's current position.

foggy_lad

CIE wrote: »

Are you feeling okay? Sweden is quite mountainous rather, and Ireland is way flatter. Sweden's railways are very curved with a lot of grades; this is why their fast trains are tilt trains.

They dont have as many of these super tilting trains as you might like to believe, and introducing such tilting trains or other such follys into Irish Railways is not something the company or country will ever be able to afford!

The X2000 service isn't confined to the southern flatlands.One wonders where you find time to come up with that much a**e-talk. It's not even funny, if that's what you were shooting for...congratulations for finding more invalid ways to justify the status quo.

http://www.sj.se/content/1/c6/12/64/53/0807-SJ-WorkshopA4_webb.pdf

SJ has a monopoly to operate passenger trains where they can be run profitably from a commercial point of view. This is mostly the case for X2000 trains and some regional trains around Stockholm. Most other railways are not profitable. Average speed is an important factor regarding profitability (more distance per hour means more income per hour). For regional trains (within one county or up to about 100 km distance) the counties buy traffic by signing a contract with an operator. The operator is often SJ, but sometimes another operator, either Swedish or from one of the other EU countries, provides the service. For these regional trains the county transport authority sells tickets. For long-distance trains (i.e., longer than the regional trains) that are not profitable, a national authority "Rikstrafiken" signs a contract with an operator to move traffic on each line (Public Service Obligation). In this case each operator markets and sell tickets. The operator for unprofitable services usually rents trains from the county transport authority or a special state organisation. This is because trains are expensive, take from two to three years to buy (from tender to delivery), and are hard to sell if the operator loses the contract. However, for the SJ monopoly traffic, SJ usually own the trains.

If the NRA got "results", didn't they get the funding first? Uh-oh. Bias detection in government. Small thinkers act like they can do nothing about it, again, and make excuses for the politicians they claim to hate so much. Status quo remains.

Electrification is not necessary for 200-km/h service. It's not like the HST never existed (and Ireland already had BREL-built Mark 3s, which they threw away for no reason). For DMU-lovers, there is still the Virgin Voyager, which has a tilting version (and that train would get you from Limerick to Galway way less than two hours)...

Not on Irish rails current dodgey tracks!

-Chris-

CIE and OurLadyofKnock, drop the handbags.

steamengine

foggy_lad wrote: »

They dont have as many of these super tilting trains as you might like to believe, and introducing such tilting trains or other such follys into Irish Railways is not something the company or country will ever be able to afford.

Portugal a country which we are level pegged with financially and not too far off population-wise either, operate 230km/hr tilting InterCity expresses. It could be done here, but perhaps as a country their transport history seems to show less mistakes. They held on to their antiquated tram systems in Lisbon and Porto, while we discarded a similar tram system in Dublin. Its not a question that we were not able to afford it at some point - if they can do it, we should be able to do it also.

foggy_lad

steamengine wrote: »

Portugal a country which we are level pegged with financially and not too far off population-wise either, operate 230km/hr tilting InterCity expresses. It could be done here, but perhaps as a country their transport history seems to show less mistakes. They held on to their antiquated tram systems in Lisbon and Porto, while we discarded a similar tram system in Dublin. Its not a question that we were not able to afford it at some point - if they can do it, we should be able to do it also.

Their trains are travelling over much greater distances than our Dublin-Cork which would be nothing more than a commuter line in most countries and would have a travel time less than two hours due to high quality infrastructure which Ireland will never have.

They also only have a few daily intercity trains between places like lisbon and porto taking several hours and operating only twice a day http://www.cp.pt/StaticFiles/CP/Imagens/PDF/Passageiros/horarios/regional/lisboa_porto.pdf

steamengine

foggy_lad wrote: »

Their trains are travelling over much greater distances than our Dublin-Cork which would be nothing more than a commuter line in most countries and would have a travel time less than two hours due to high quality infrastructure which Ireland will never have.

Lisbon-Porto at 200 miles compares favourably with Dublin - Cork. This distance thing is forever been trotted out and is nothing but a red herring.

They also only have a few daily intercity trains between places like lisbon and porto taking several hours and operating only twice a day http://www.cp.pt/StaticFiles/CP/Imagens/PDF/Passageiros/horarios/regional/lisboa_porto.pdf

2.5 to 3 hours, is the journey time for the tilting expresses, Alfa Pendulars, and 10 of those per day, the regional trains are in addition to that. Look up the timetable, you were quoting the regional timetable. My point is that if Portugal which is regarded as being not exactly a well off country can do it, then so should we able to do it.

All in all though it looks like our InterCities stand up quite well by comparison considering !!!

InterCity inc Alfa Pendular Timetable http://www.cp.pt/StaticFiles/CP/Imagens/PDF/Passageiros/horarios/longo_curso/ap_ic.pdf

foggy_lad

steamengine wrote: »

Lisbon-Porto at 200 miles compares favourably with Dublin - Cork. This distance thing is forever been trotted out and is nothing but a red herring.



2.5 to 3 hours, is the journey time for the tilting expresses, Alfa Pendulars, and 10 of those per day, the regional trains are in addition to that. Look up the timetable, you were quoting the regional timetable. My point is that if Portugal which is regarded as being not exactly a well off country can do it, then so should we able to do it.

All in all though it looks like our InterCities stand up quite well by comparison considering !!!

InterCity inc Alfa Pendular Timetable http://www.cp.pt/StaticFiles/CP/Imagens/PDF/Passageiros/horarios/longo_curso/ap_ic.pdf

Seriously though can you ever see Irish rail having enough passengers on the western rail corridor or any other intercity route to justify spending money on track upgrades to facilitate tilting trains? The train budget is zero/empty/spent for about 40 years! The country is broke and Irish rail are soon to lose a huge chunk of their government subsidy so if anything they will be closing down lines and cutting back on services.

You mention the tilting trains which run parallel to the regional trains, here in Ireland we don't have enough passengers for regional trains so extra services is nothing more than folly and shameful waste much like the western rail corridor, and is typical of what people who are not in touch with the realities of the railways in Ireland like British train spotters think.

howiya

steamengine wrote: »

My point is that if Portugal which is regarded as being not exactly a well off country can do it, then so should we able to do it.

Is it not the case that Portugal have done it in the past when they had money/money was available cheaply and that the problem is paying back the money?

OurLadyofKnock

steamengine wrote: »

Portugal a country which we are level pegged with financially and not too far off population-wise either, operate 230km/hr tilting InterCity expresses. It could be done here, but perhaps as a country their transport history seems to show less mistakes. They held on to their antiquated tram systems in Lisbon and Porto, while we discarded a similar tram system in Dublin. Its not a question that we were not able to afford it at some point - if they can do it, we should be able to do it also.

The issue is that as Portugal started to move up economcally they spent their money on high-speed rail, metros and motorways.

In ireland we spent our money on Partnership and Motorways.

They have a world class rail trainsport system - we have wasters making six figure salaries playing Farmville in Government offices up and down the country holding out for the largest pensions in the history of the human race.

and now we have no money left .

foggy_lad

howiya wrote: »

Is it not the case that Portugal have done it in the past when they had money/money was available cheaply and that the problem is paying back the money?

It also appears that Portugal only got halfway through their mighty rail plans which were not due to be completed till 2016 so they only have half a high speed tilting train network:D

corktina

it is true that roads were prioritised ahead of rail.

But then again, do you rememeber the awful state of our road system a decade ago?

remember Kildare...Monasterevin..Abbeyleix...Mitchelstown....Fermoy and thats just the N8!

steamengine

howiya wrote: »

Is it not the case that Portugal have done it in the past when they had money/money was available cheaply and that the problem is paying back the money?

At least with the Alfa Pendulars they have more to show for their debt than we have, including also their new Motorway and Metro systems as Our Lady of Knock has correctly pointed up.

corktina

yeah all we have is the Luas, M1/2/3/4/5/6/7/8/9 port tunnel, terminal 2, Mk4 coaches, class 22xxx units and others,M50 widening, Red Cow free flow, .....:)

Losty Dublin

OurLadyofKnock wrote: »

In ireland we spent our money on Partnership and Motorways.

They have a world class rail trainsport system - we have wasters making six figure salaries playing Farmville in Government offices up and down the country holding out for the largest pensions in the history of the human race.

And this is the real key problem in all of it; those people working in the Department offices in Dublin who oversee and mandate our semi state companies and state boards to do what they do. When it comes to overall policy, the likes of CIE or the RSA can't override their paymasters or cabinet policy.

OurLadyofKnock

Losty Dublin wrote: »

And this is the real key problem in all of it; those people working in the Department offices in Dublin who oversee and mandate our semi state companies and state boards to do what they do. When it comes to overall policy, the likes of CIE or the RSA can't override their paymasters or cabinet policy.

In years to come Charlie McCreevey and Bertie Ahern and their thugs in the Public Sector Unions will be seen for what the monsters they truly are. The country is destroyed on so many levels while these people call themselves "patriots".

You couldn't make it up.

steamengine

foggy_lad wrote: »

Seriously though can you ever see Irish rail having enough passengers on the western rail corridor or any other intercity route to justify spending money on track upgrades to facilitate tilting trains? The train budget is zero/empty/spent for about 40 years! The country is broke and Irish rail are soon to lose a huge chunk of their government subsidy so if anything they will be closing down lines and cutting back on services.

You mention the tilting trains which run parallel to the regional trains, here in Ireland we don't have enough passengers for regional trains so extra services is nothing more than folly and shameful waste much like the western rail corridor, and is typical of what people who are not in touch with the realities of the railways in Ireland like British train spotters think.

I don't disagree with most of what you say here but the UK experience showed that 125mph running was necessary to compete with the challenge that motorways set over there. Whether they are tilting or not doesn't really matter. Nothing to do with train spotting fantasies - just reality !!!

foggy_lad

steamengine wrote: »

I don't disagree with most of what you say here but the UK experience showed that 125mph running was necessary to compete with the challenge that motorways set over there. Whether they are tilting or not doesn't really matter. Nothing to do with train spotting fantasies - just reality !!!

I agree but it is not feasable here in Ireland to have a super fast 100mph or 125mph network, all Ireland will ever have are a few short stretches of fast track in between old rickety branch lines.

At least we now have fairly comfortable trains and commuter units that hopefully will see out the company/depression.

OurLadyofKnock

foggy_lad wrote: »

At least we now have fairly comfortable trains and commuter units that hopefully will see out the company/depression.

Spot on, make the most of what can be made to work and flourish to some degree. Services changes and staffing changes will be key to this. We can't have unions dictating how the timetable is written anymore.

The first step to this is a TOTAL SACKING OF ALL IRISH RAIL MANAGEMENT.

This would make the unions more agreeable to change. If they don't get the message and are still screaming "Larkin, Larkin!" while the kill-off the network. SACK THEM TOO and bring in rail staff from Eastern Europe. Shut down the network for months if need be - so it can be reborn.

AngryLips

foggy_lad wrote: »

I agree but it is not feasable here in Ireland to have a super fast 100mph or 125mph network, all Ireland will ever have are a few short stretches of fast track in between old rickety branch lines.

At least we now have fairly comfortable trains and commuter units that hopefully will see out the company/depression.

What about closing all but the main intercity lines and diverting the subvention from operating expenditure to capital expenditure to increase speeds on what's left behind?

foggy_lad

AngryLips wrote: »

What about closing all but the main intercity lines and diverting the subvention from operating expenditure to capital expenditure to increase speeds on what's left behind?

The intercity lines are the main drain on the company, they have to try in vain to keep these lines running at reasonable speeds on old allignments which are too far off track to be any incentive for potential passengers when they should be concentrating on things like bringing a rail spur into naas and into Celbridge so that these massive commuter centres are actually physically served by the railway and customers dont have to get up and drive to the station to catch a train to work!

AngryLips

There are plenty of "intercity lines" that I would not describe as intercity by any definition:

Dublin-Ballina
Dublin-Castlebar
Dublin-Sligo
Dublin-Tralee
Dublin-Wexford

steamengine

foggy_lad wrote: »

I agree but it is not feasable here in Ireland to have a super fast 100mph or 125mph network, all Ireland will ever have are a few short stretches of fast track in between old rickety branch lines.

At least we now have fairly comfortable trains and commuter units that hopefully will see out the company/depression.

What about Dublin - Cork though ? The last time I read their network statement 42 miles approx were 100 mph running. Surely that could be extended !!!

foggy_lad

steamengine wrote: »

What about Dublin - Cork though ? The last time I read their network statement 42 miles approx were 100 mph running. Surely that could be extended !!!

it is 42 miles but each day they extend one section to 100mph they restrict some other delipidated stretch for safety reasons or so they can do essential maintenance required to actually keep the line open! they seem to be doing nothing more than keeping it going and dont have the ability to actually fix up lines for the long term.

shamwari

OurLadyofKnock wrote: »

The first step to this is a TOTAL SACKING OF ALL IRISH RAIL MANAGEMENT.

This would make the unions more agreeable to change. If they don't get the message and are still screaming "Larkin, Larkin!" while the kill-off the network. SACK THEM TOO and bring in rail staff from Eastern Europe. Shut down the network for months if need be - so it can be reborn.

Any chance we can have some suggestions that are grounded in realism?

schemingbohemia

shamwari wrote: »

Any chance we can have some suggestions that are grounded in realism?

Doubtful given the OPs track record.

OurLadyofKnock

schemingbohemia wrote: »

Doubtful given the OPs track record.

Really, so I was wrong all along about the Western Rail Corridor?


Funny, I was down looking at the track today. No sign of a Railway Children Special yet.


I am the Tarquinaror. Just ask IRN.

Victor

OurLadyofKnock wrote: »

I am the Tarquinaror. Just ask IRN.

We don't want or need to know this. So please don't mention it.

dermo88

The crunch will take place using outside consultants such as McKinsey to tell them (The Dept of Finance and Transport), what we already know. The conspiracy theorist in my mind always believed that the Western Rail Corridor was built to fail, and would be used to block any future investment in rail.

Its a case of use what we have already, more effectively, and thats possible with some imagination.

However, the funding framework depends on Iarnrod Eireann coming in 'on time', so they massage the statistics. In a way....who can blame them. They are to an extent stuck between a rock and a hard place.

There is definitely congestion now on the Heuston-Portlaoise stretch. Personally, I would be in favour of using the 22K's on a lot more 'split and join' services such as having direct Dublin-Tralee/Limerick/Cork combined in a triple set which splits at Limerick Jctn and Mallow 3 times daily. The same could be done on Dublin-Waterford, which would split at Bagenalstown and then one half goes to Kilkenny and reverses, stops at Thomastown and Waterford, the other half non stop to Waterford.

This is about sweating assets to provide the optimal level of service, and this is what DMU's do best.

Mass closures will lead to some protests. Two routes will die anyway, and these are Limerick Jctn-Waterford, and as for Roscrea/Nenagh, forget it.

The rest have been invested and upgraded to keep them in good condition for the next 20 years at least, and the rolling stock, if I know the Koreans, should be adequate IF maintained. As for bitching about the Mark III's, the mistake was made at the time of their purchase, and that was the need to have the entire bunch modified to work in Push/Pull format, with a DBGV (Driving Brake Generator Van). But this is neither here nor there. They would still need modifications mid life to keep them going until 2030 (ish), and that would cost EUR600,000 per coach according to the information given by LostyDublin.

Given that the era of locomotive hauled trains is dying out on Irish type distances, I think it was a wise decision to go and buy the 22K's.

Iarnrod Eireann are not perfect, but they are not the devil incarnate either. I would like to ask the detractors at this point,...:

When in the history of the network was there a consistent brand for Intercity network wide, with standardised rolling stock? Because before you could get:

Cravens
Mark 2ds
Mark 2bs....second hand
Cu na Mara
Mark 3's...

So it was quite a varied product in terms of price and quality. It was horribly inconsistent. You had Mk 2d's stinking of urine and damp compared to a spick and span Mk 3. Even the Cravens were more 'stylish' inside than a Mk 2d, particularly when they were defaced with the skanger scum graffiti such as 'anto loves carla' scratched into the wood.....DISGUSTING.

And now....its standardised throughout and the improvement in quality in the past 10 years is a quantum leap. That cannot be denied, despite the all too obvious faults.

So is the glass half empty or half full? In my opinion....its two thirds full.....and filling the glass does not take much more work to be frank.

DWCommuter

shamwari wrote: »

Any chance we can have some suggestions that are grounded in realism?

I'll happily give a few and in order of preference. (I'm speaking in Railway terms only)

1. Abandon the CIE brand. It's associated with failure.
2. Abandon the work practices.
3. Recast the way the railway is run and return the unions to a position of simply protecting workers rights as opposed to creating a cartel of comfort and privilege that is counter productive to running an actual business and serving customers. (this is actually a throwback to a time when railway workers were abused. Times have changed and it will inevitably create a period of disruption, but will ultimately be worth it.)
4. Separate infrastructure from services by placing one in full state ownership and the other in either semi state and/or private sector.
5 Approach the above in a no nonsense fashion and take no prisoners.
6. Allow existing IE management to run things in accordance with changes above for a period of 2 years.

I have no problem with a subsidy being paid to provide and run infrastructure, but I have a huge problem with it all being lumped in together with services. Lets find out if the current management of IE are capable of running a business when the playing field has been cleared of debris.

My own opinion...I don't think they would be capable. Ultimately competition ups performance. We only have to look at how Aer Lingus upped its game when Ryanair came along and bucked its semi state protection. While the railway is a smaller market, a similar business model can be applied that may save it, from itself, Government and road competition.

DWCommuter

Losty Dublin wrote: »

And this is the real key problem in all of it; those people working in the Department offices in Dublin who oversee and mandate our semi state companies and state boards to do what they do. When it comes to overall policy, the likes of CIE or the RSA can't override their paymasters or cabinet policy.

One of the biggest problems, I agree, but it does not and never has excused CIE of the decisions they have made. CIE and its staff may have become socially/economically dependent on how they are perceived and treated within political circles, but that just smacks of being obedient and outdated. In fact its now an accepted combination of Union and Government policy. Therein lies the problem. I have often suggested a complete and absolute change, but if it was forthcoming from a Government, would you or the staff accept the necessary changes that would inevitably have to come? Its one thing claiming that the paymaster calls the shots, but would CIE be willing to accept changes in union influence, work practices and the ultimate end service to customers? Politics can change. Policy can change. Can CIE change? CIE hasn't been challenged because Politicians are still afraid of their creation. The late Seamus Brennan tried it and the reaction from CIE staff was (IMO) ****ing pathetic.

CIE is a dinosaur and despite being a loss making and heavily subsidised Semi-State, it still strikes the fear of god in any Government. When that is finally addressed, it will be better for all. However no Government has the balls to do it and so it will potter along as inefficiently and socially protected from reality as it always has.

dermo88

DWCommuter

CIE is a dinosaur and despite being a loss making and heavily subsidised Semi-State, it still strikes the fear of god in any Government. When that is finally addressed, it will be better for all. However no Government has the balls to do it and so it will potter along as inefficiently and socially protected from reality as it always has.

Which is why a recession is the ideal time to do an Irish version of what Maggie Thatcher did to the miners. CIE is the ideal avenue to do emergency surgery with no anaesthetic on the semi state sector.

And a few ideas from the Jeremy Clarkson school of justice would not go astray,

mickydoomsux

dermo88 wrote: »

DWCommuter
And a few ideas from the Jeremy Clarkson school of justice would not go astray,

Advocating violence against IE employees?

Stay classy, dermo.

dermo88

No....

Not violence. Merely extrajudicial methods of physical persuasion. If I advocated violence I would mention General Pinochet, General Sani Abacha, General Suharto. Upstanding people who knew exactly how to deal with communists.

-Chris-

Enough of that line of conversation, thanks

AngryLips

DWCommuter wrote: »

4. Separate infrastructure from services by placing one in full state ownership and the other in either semi state and/or private sector.

Didn't this result in a number of rail crashes and an above-inflation increase in average rail fares when implemented in the UK?

DWCommuter

AngryLips wrote: »

Didn't this result in a number of rail crashes and an above-inflation increase in average rail fares when implemented in the UK?

The safety issue in the UK was created by placing the infrastructure in private ownership. (It has since been returned to state ownership.)The pursuit of profit lead to corner cutting on essential safety practices. I'm proposing, like many others have, that the rail infrastructure in Ireland, be retained in state ownership. Furthermore I'm also proposing that the services be operated by the private sector and or a semi state.(new practices if it is a semi state.)

The UK model is often touted in a negative fashion, when in fact it can provide Ireland with invaluable lessons. The UK didn't get it quite right, but that does not mean that its model should be ignored. Realistically we can't keep pumping hundreds of millions per annum into IE and we cannot accept line closures or service cut backs as an anecdote to a Government cut in subsidy. The railway must be recast so it can perform like a proper business and not as some sort of state dependent.

Once again I need to stress why it is all wrong. Luas was taken out of CIE hands because the state knew it would not have the same impact under the CIE banner and would be tied into every established cultural timebomb that manifested itself within the company. But there is a continued reluctance to finally face down the CIE cartel. It does not justify its high salaries. It does not justify its actual existence. Its a mess. A holding company and a few subs. A history of negativity behind it. A bad brand. Not even Fergal Quinn could save it! I'm a business person. I have succeeded, failed, succeeded again and could fail again tomorrow. That's how it can work, but if you don't learn any lessons as this happens, then you are always destined to fail. The CIE brand and everything associated with it is worthless. Nearly 70 years of developing into a representation of all that can go wrong once you allow politicians, civil servants and unions to create a battlefield and peace zone within one entity. Its then never about the customer. Its about themselves.

Returning, specifically, to railways, I can't look at IE from a sentimental perspective. I could never view it from an enthusiasts perspective. And obviously I cannot look at it from an employees perspective. Since I started running a business nearly 20 years ago, I could only ever look at IE from a business perspective. Running IE as things stand is easy. In fact its always been easy. Your shareholder will always bail you out. The subsidy may drop. Investment may not appear. But you will still get your salary every week despite your business being in the doldrums. Great gig if you can get it. The same for the staff. Job for life. It doesn't work like that in the real world. So lets put Irish railways in the real world. Give it a chance to act like a real business. Discard complacent non visionary staff that have always intended drifting towards the State or Semi-State since they first read about Bran the dog in primary school. Discard the victims of nepotism unless they treat the job as an honour rather than a birth right. If you are going to recruit top management from abroad then lets be really visionary instead of recruiting an Ex British Rail man that couldn't succeed in the newly privatized world of UK railways. I exchanged correspondence with Dick Fearn a few times. Bored the arse off me. Met him once and heard the trainspotters masturbatory line, "I'm a railway man". No Dick, you're an ex BR man that came to Ireland for easy money and a comfy pension.

I fully understand that my comments are going to prove controversial and derisory to some people, but I cannot and will not apologise. Until the CIE brand is dismantled, Unions are brought back to reality, management are retained based on performance, politicians stay out of it, staff treat it as an actual job and the entire railway operation is overhauled (inclusive of the above and plus more) then it will fail and ultimately close line by line.

corktina

i suppose the line up of thankers on DWs post is predictable, but keep banging that drum, theres a lot of people need to hear it.

OurLadyofKnock

DWCommuter wrote: »

The safety issue in the UK was created by placing the infrastructure in private ownership. (It has since been returned to state ownership.)The pursuit of profit lead to corner cutting on essential safety practices. I'm proposing, like many others have, that the rail infrastructure in Ireland, be retained in state ownership. Furthermore I'm also proposing that the services be operated by the private sector and or a semi state.(new practices if it is a semi state.)

The UK model is often touted in a negative fashion, when in fact it can provide Ireland with invaluable lessons. The UK didn't get it quite right, but that does not mean that its model should be ignored. Realistically we can't keep pumping hundreds of millions per annum into IE and we cannot accept line closures or service cut backs as an anecdote to a Government cut in subsidy. The railway must be recast so it can perform like a proper business and not as some sort of state dependent.

Once again I need to stress why it is all wrong. Luas was taken out of CIE hands because the state knew it would not have the same impact under the CIE banner and would be tied into every established cultural timebomb that manifested itself within the company. But there is a continued reluctance to finally face down the CIE cartel. It does not justify its high salaries. It does not justify its actual existence. Its a mess. A holding company and a few subs. A history of negativity behind it. A bad brand. Not even Fergal Quinn could save it! I'm a business person. I have succeeded, failed, succeeded again and could fail again tomorrow. That's how it can work, but if you don't learn any lessons as this happens, then you are always destined to fail. The CIE brand and everything associated with it is worthless. Nearly 70 years of developing into a representation of all that can go wrong once you allow politicians, civil servants and unions to create a battlefield and peace zone within one entity. Its then never about the customer. Its about themselves.

Returning, specifically, to railways, I can't look at IE from a sentimental perspective. I could never view it from an enthusiasts perspective. And obviously I cannot look at it from an employees perspective. Since I started running a business nearly 20 years ago, I could only ever look at IE from a business perspective. Running IE as things stand is easy. In fact its always been easy. Your shareholder will always bail you out. The subsidy may drop. Investment may not appear. But you will still get your salary every week despite your business being in the doldrums. Great gig if you can get it. The same for the staff. Job for life. It doesn't work like that in the real world. So lets put Irish railways in the real world. Give it a chance to act like a real business. Discard complacent non visionary staff that have always intended drifting towards the State or Semi-State since they first read about Bran the dog in primary school. Discard the victims of nepotism unless they treat the job as an honour rather than a birth right. If you are going to recruit top management from abroad then lets be really visionary instead of recruiting an Ex British Rail man that couldn't succeed in the newly privatized world of UK railways. I exchanged correspondence with Dick Fearn a few times. Bored the arse off me. Met him once and heard the trainspotters masturbatory line, "I'm a railway man". No Dick, you're an ex BR man that came to Ireland for easy money and a comfy pension.

I fully understand that my comments are going to prove controversial and derisory to some people, but I cannot and will not apologise. Until the CIE brand is dismantled, Unions are brought back to reality, management are retained based on performance, politicians stay out of it, staff treat it as an actual job and the entire railway operation is overhauled (inclusive of the above and plus more) then it will fail and ultimately close line by line.

This really needs to be read by as many people as possible. The problem and the solution all in one go.

Judgement Day

corktina wrote: »

i suppose the line up of thankers on DWs post is predictable, but keep banging that drum, theres a lot of people need to hear it.

The usually notable absentees as well.

OurLadyofKnock

Judgement Day wrote: »

The usually notable absentees as well.

They can do without the embrassment next to the IRRS tea trolley.

corktina

you are all a load of thankers...:D

DWCommuter

OurLadyofKnock wrote: »

They can do without the embrassment next to the IRRS tea trolley.

You know, forget them. Lets not afford them the opportunity of having this thread closed by reporting posts because they are unwilling to accept another view. Back OT.

8% cut in CIE subsidy. Minister has requested they absorb some of the cut, but fare hikes are already in the offing. Its obvious to all that the subsidy will continue to drop for at least another 3 years and if IE keep raising fares to make ends meet, then its do or die time. Their product is already over priced for what you get IMO. And lets never forget the Motorways.