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Changing from dry dog food to raw/barf
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Thanks all for confirming I have not lost my average maths skills!!
I am going to take a trip to Keypak in the next day or so up in Clonee as I know they have a trade counter to see what deals they have, surely they will have great offer there per kg.
Andrea, I've just booked Buddy into the 4th and 27th December shows in Cloghran no doubt I will see you there and you can introduce me to this guy, cheers for that.
I know dogsfirst was using prices he was getting from lidl and other places I had a feeling some of the prices could have been made cheaper, as far as I am aware lidl veg is cheaper than most other stores, or so i'm told when talking about food prices in work.
Will be interested to see how you get on there in Keypak.
Yes Lidl do those super 6 offers weekly if you have dogs that will eat it. I am restricted to mainly carrot and small amounts of everything else but sometimes their carrots are on for 49c /kg.
I think there is a poultry farm in cavan too.0 -
i worked in a place where we had to get dog food training. basically im too lazy to read of all what was posted and why your doing it, but the man doing it said dry nuts are better than the wet food as its better for teeth and the things which go into it. he advised to stay away from the cans . sorry if this is irrelevant but just thought i should let you know.
Tacofries, I think what he said is a gross over-generalisation. First of all, you have to take the quality of the ingredients into account. A tin of lightly-cooked green tripe is going to be much better for a dog than a cup of Bakers' Complete, for example.
Another school of thought now that is gaining ground is that wet food is better for the dog as there is less toll on the kidneys. A life-long dry food diet has been linked to chronic renal failure in older cats. Cats (and dogs) in the wild don't a lot of fresh water - they get enough moisture from the fresh prey they eat. So cats in particular don't necessarily drink enough water to compensate for the dehydrated, dry food.
Also, what scientific evidence there is that dry food is better for the dog's teeth has been drummed up by... Yes, you guessed it, the dry dog food companies like Royal Canin! If you look at the research papers they base the advertising on, you'll find that the improvement in oral condition when feeding dry v. wet is minimal. If was really concerned about the effects of diet on my dogs' teeth, then I'd go over to a BARF/raw meaty bones diet. My friend's GSD is nearly 4, is fed raw and has the pearly whites of a newborn puppy
My dog is on a soft food diet as I have to home-cook for her. (She has kidney disease.) I can't give her raw bones anymore as they are too high in phosphorous. She's no longer on Orijen as the very high protein content is too much hard work for her kidneys. Now she gets standard amounts of protein in her diet, with an emphasis on highly bio-available protein such as eggs and lamb. She gets raw mince, boneless tinned fish and cooked carbs like potato, rice, carrots. Her teeth are immaculate. I give her Plaque Off in her food every day and rub dog toothpaste on her teeth.
Edited to add: Just read the booklet at that link (www.dogsfirst.ie) and there are some inaccuracies in there, from my own general reading on dog nutrition. Take any info on the web by raw/BARF enthusiasts with a pinch of salt, and read around the subject as much as you can.0 -
I am going to take a trip to Keypak in the next day or so up in Clonee as I know they have a trade counter to see what deals they have, surely they will have great offer there per kg.
Was just down with my local butcher. I should mention first I buy all my own meat there and he has always given me a "few bones for the dags". He was more than happy to help, nice guy.
1.20/kg for meaty bones, muscle and organs as toomanydogs said before. He gave me a bag a beef hearts today for the same price.
He`s gonna make up 7 frozen 1.2 kg bags for me to pick up every second friday evening(the day he cuts most of his meat). That plus rice/spuds, veg and fish oil. Sorted.
Each bag will last the two dogs (20 and 25 kg collies) one day on the 3% rule. 28 days@1.20/day= 33.60 per month. Was paying 70/month before for two bags of purina beta active.
Support your local business:D.
Please tell me if you see anything wrong with this? First time trying it.0 -
That sounds fantastic
Nice Mr. Butcher! :P
I'd space out the offal to one or non-consecutive two days a week - it's very rich.
What they'll be getting is incomparably better than the Beta. :P
Edited to add: With them eating raw muscle meat and raw offal they have a slightly greater risk of contracting worms than a dog fed on cooked food. I would worm them regularly with a product that does ascarids, nematodes and platyhelminths (that's roundworm, lungworm, whipworm tapeworm to you and me.) Read the product info to be sure. I think Zantec or Drontal do all of the above.0 -
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offal? sorry I'm not a butcher
on the parasites I read somewhere that if the meat is frozen for ten days+ it kills off the worms
What do you mean by regularly?0 -
Ronnie Beck wrote: »offal? sorry I'm not a butcher
Offal as in the internal organs but particularily the likes of liver and kidney, they're very rich. The likes of hearts, lungs and tripe are nearly considered muscle meat for the purposes of raw feeding.Ronnie Beck wrote: »on the parasites I read somewhere that if the meat is frozen for ten days+ it kills off the worms
Freezing for 30 days will kill pretty much anything, pork must be frozen for 30 days minimum [/QUOTE]Ronnie Beck wrote: »What do you mean by regularly?
It's recommended to worm every 3 to 6 months, so stick to every 3 months to be on the safe side. I haven't seen a single worms with my lot since I started on raw food so it works for me.
It's great to have a relationship with your butcher, unfortunately me being veggie I don't so can't get favours! I pick up a 15 - 20kg bag of meaty bones every week but then have to chop and seperate it out. (the chopping is only because I hate to see them wipe big bits of bones up and down the kitchen floor :eek:)0 -
Just on the presence of worms - I used to look in my dogs' poop after they'd been wormed, to see if there were any worms or worm segments. I was always a proud mother when I didn't see any, thinking they mustn't have had worms then.
Wrong! :eek: The likes of Drontal actually cause the worm to disintegrate in the intestine, so you won't see worms being passed out. Only with the likes of Parazole, which paralyses the worms, might you see something coming out the other end.0 -
Ronnie Beck wrote: »Was just down with my local butcher. I should mention first I buy all my own meat there and he has always given me a "few bones for the dags". He was more than happy to help, nice guy.
1.20/kg for meaty bones, muscle and organs as toomanydogs said before. He gave me a bag a beef hearts today for the same price.
He`s gonna make up 7 frozen 1.2 kg bags for me to pick up every second friday evening(the day he cuts most of his meat). That plus rice/spuds, veg and fish oil. Sorted.
Each bag will last the two dogs (20 and 25 kg collies) one day on the 3% rule. 28 days@1.20/day= 33.60 per month. Was paying 70/month before for two bags of purina beta active.
Support your local business:D.
Please tell me if you see anything wrong with this? First time trying it.
them prices are excellent in comparison with the dry food, might call down to my local butcher to see what deals he can give me0 -
Wrong! :eek: The likes of Drontal actually cause the worm to disintegrate in the intestine, so you won't see worms being passed out. Only with the likes of Parazole, which paralyses the worms, might you see something coming out the other end.
That I didn't know! Now I'm wondering what my wormer does. Would help if I remembered the name..... think it's Zantec or something???0 -
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Zantec has precisely the same ingredients as Drontal.
(Incidentally I also wormed myself this year because I have had so much contact with wormy pups and kittens. Was congratulating myself that it had "no visible effect" until I found about the above. Yeuch!)0 -
Ok I have done some calculations based on my 2 rotties.
Buddy 14months he weighs in at roughly 48-50kg
(last time I weighed him he was 46kg, he's grown a bit since then)
Izzy is 4months she weighs in at 18kg
Both are on Royal Canin Maxi Junior costing me €69.99 for a 15kg bag.
Buddy's daily recommendation of food is 625g per day
Izzy's daily recommendation of food is 420g per day
I'm doing this per bag per dog.
So if I am right then this would mean;
Buddy should get 24 days out of 1 bag exactly = €2.91625 per day
Izzy should get just under 36 days out of 1 bag = €1.94416 per day
(hers will change as she is still growing)i
Going off the dogsfirst method 3% of Buddy's weight is 1.47kg which in turn would mean he should get 1.47kg of food per day.
Going off the dogsfirst method 3% of Izzy's weight is 0.54kg which in turn would mean she should get 0.54kg of food per day.
So this would mean using the price as worked out by dogsfirst at €2.87 per kg (depending on where you source your produce of course)would then mean
Buddy 48-50kg eats 1.47kg of fresh produce = €4.21 per day
Izzy 18kg eats 0.54kg of fresh produce = €1.54 per day
Don't know why I didn't do this earlier, seems like I would be losing money by changing over. The smaller dog owner would be saving money but unfortunately myself and other large breed owners would be paying more. I do actually intend on changing to buying the food on-line from maxizoo/zooplus or one of the usual's as I know it is even cheaper again to buy on-line.
[SIZE="2"]Seriously are my numbers right there? I stand to be corrected on any or all of my figures but I hope if they are indeed right this has helped anyone else out![/SIZE]
Hi folks,
The larger the dog the less the dog needs. And it is only an approximation, your rottie (and 50kg breeds in general) are less active requiring significantly less food.
Also your vet bills will plummet. Check out the savings on "canine health concern". But this is longterm and never sways the doubters!
But yes, you have a bit of work to do to reduce that food bill. An earlier poster said they could get chicken for 1/kg!! While i weep for the life of the chickens produced for this price, it proves there is so many ways to make it cheaper. My mix I reccomend to those dipping their toe is not the cheapest, its the mist accessible lidl mix, its up to you after that.
I can do it lots cheaper, I buy mackerel and herring by the kilo from a fish factory. I buy my free range chicken carcass from an abbatoir one every two months. I'm currently getting free range turkey necks for nothing.
An earlier poster highlighted you can get pet grade beef, this is absolutely not recommended. Pet grade meat is necessarily denatured as it leaves the abbatoir so humans can't get it cheap and reintroduce to human food chain. It is denatured with creosote amongst many other poisons. You wouldn't give it to the mother in law.
My food is costing me around 1.30 per kg, beat that!0 -
My dog is on a soft food diet as I have to home-cook for her. (She has kidney disease.) I can't give her raw bones anymore as they are too high in phosphorous. She's no longer on Orijen as the very high protein content is too much hard work for her kidneys. Now she gets standard amounts of protein in her diet, with an emphasis on highly bio-available protein such as eggs and lamb. She gets raw mince, boneless tinned fish and cooked carbs like potato, rice, carrots. Her teeth are immaculate. I give her Plaque Off in her food every day and rub dog toothpaste on her teeth.
Edited to add: Just read the booklet at that link (www.dogsfirst.ie) and there are some inaccuracies in there, from my own general reading on dog nutrition. Take any info on the web by raw/BARF enthusiasts with a pinch of salt, and read around the subject as much as you can.
Hi boomers, away at moment so must be brief (which will be unusual for me!).
Thanks for the comments. Could you help us out and perhaps highlight the inaccuracies in the booklet you found? While it us only a quick little general guide for newbies, I lecture on canine nutrition to vets here and abroad. While i am absolutely a raw enthusiast, it has taken me many years of intensive research to get here. Thus it is vital the info I am putting our is on the money.
Re your dogs kidney disease, how far gone is she? Every study conducted to date shows that even dogs with close to end stage kidney failure (90% collapse) can deal adequately with high protein contents, such as orijen and above, and this isn't just carnivorous dogs with meat adapted kidneys, it is also the case in human kidney patients (bar a few rarer conditions). The key to your dogs ruined kidneys is likely to be protein quality, not quantity. So when you say cook the food for her, denaturing the protein (think cooking eggs), not only making it more antigenic for the carnivore thereby creating extra work for the kidneys with the increase of possible immunoglobulins, but more importantly you are reducing the digestibility of the protein, which is very much recommended against for dogs (and humans) with kidney disease. Thus cooked protein (all dry food) is not recommended for kidney patients. Only highly digestible (thus raw animal protein) is recommended for your dog.
You're spot on with cutting out the chewable bones in her diet. To be clear to readers though, bones are not the cause, undoubtedly your girl was dry fed pre kidney failure and it wasn't the edible bones that caused the problem. These are a vital part of a dogs nutrition, more than just the best toothbrush.
See previous posts on kidney disease for recommended reading, or simply type "protein + kidney disease + dogs" into Google scholar.
Seems thus post wasn't so short after all......
Hope it helps!0 -
TooManyDogs wrote: »Ronnie Beck wrote: »offal? sorry I'm not a butcherRonnie Beck wrote: »on the parasites I read somewhere that if the meat is frozen for ten days+ it kills off the worms
Freezing for 30 days will kill pretty much anything, pork must be frozen for 30 days minimumRonnie Beck wrote: »What do you mean by regularly?
Freezing doesn't kill bacteria and is 50/50 to kill nematode eggs. This freezing for 30 days is as much unnecessary as it is unusual. Raw feeders can't be mass freezing meat for 30+ days, carefully labelling each bag! I can only assure you all that nobody else in the raw world is doing that.
Parasites (worms or bacteria such as salmonella or campi) are of no consequence whatsoever to a healthy dog. Read earlier posts but with lysozyme in their saliva, strong stomach acid of pH1 and rapid system, its extremely difficult for any worms. Dogs coevolved with these baddies, they are scavenging carnivores, if a few worms could get in then scavenging days old corpses or burying a bone and eating it months later (septacemia) would lay it out.
Freezing raw fish us necessary for 1day (their worms can pose a problem and freezing eliminates them), raw beef and chicken is absolutely fine for your dog. Raw pork us not recommended as the pork we mass produced is now riddled with some nasty pathogens that will even get at your dog.
If I could add a personal observation, raw fed dogs don't get parasites to the same degree as "others". At this many non believers are rolling their eyes! But healthy wild dogs don't suffer fleas or worms unless on the way out, and raw feeders don't seem to worm. Probably the move to raw stregthens the dogs digestive process and certainly bolsters the immunity no end.
And worming is very hardcore for the system (flea drops are particularly nasty chemicals, as neurotoxins you are advised to wear goggles and gloves, if it gets on your skin wash off immediately, you then put a load on a pup). Just another its ok for them scenario without any grounding in good health practice.
And its so ridiculousy expensive. Now and again perhaps but every 3months, absolutely not.0 -
I don't like feeding cooked protein; she mostly gets raw: eggs, minced lamb, green tripe, frozen fish fillets like haddock and whiting. She gets braised liver occasionally, tuna once a week (for variety) and roast chicken/turkey meat on the very, very rare occasions I cook for myself.
The carbs though are cooked, and are there to bump up the calories. She gets a moderate amount of protein - roughly a gram of protein per pound bodyweight, with an emphasis on high bio-availability. I have no problem feeding a dog a protein-rich diet - I think it's especially important for oldies, so long as they can handle it. The problem with a CRF dog is that meat (even if de-boned) contains a lot of phosphorous, and reducing phosphorous to protect kidney function is a primary goal when feeding a dog with renal insufficiency. When I'm making up recipes for her, I don't worry if it works out very high in protein - it's the phosphorus level I'm watching. So she gets low-phos carbs like sushi rice and potatoes, so I can bump up the meat content as much as possible.
I'm a firm believer in the theraputic value of raw meaty bones for dogs.But they are extremely high in phosphorous, which is why she can only have a bone once in a blue moon now.
She has been fed on exclusively dry foods in the past, including Orijen, but has also been fed raw and most recently (before her diagnosis) Robbies, which is a moist food. My other dog gets half and half Robbies and "Green Dog" dry food and is doing great - touch wood no kidney problems so far. (She's 8 and has bloods and urinanalysis done once a year as part of her annual check up.)
Thanks for the input.0 -
Freezing doesn't kill bacteria and is 50/50 to kill nematode eggs. This freezing for 30 days is as much unnecessary as it is unusual. Raw feeders can't be mass freezing meat for 30+ days, carefully labelling each bag! I can only assure you all that nobody else in the raw world is doing that.
Freezing pork to kill paracites was one of the most common pieces of information that kept coming up when I was researching feeding raw, and as pork is only a small part of the diet I found it easy to label it and freeze for 30 days!
Here's a few links a quick google search threw up so you can forgive people for thinking it is necessary to freeze pork.
http://www.njboxers.com/faqs.htm#pork
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raw_feeding (bacteria, viruses, paracites)
http://www.irishdogs.ie/articles/5-common-myths-about-feeding-dogs.html (myth 3)Now and again perhaps but every 3months, absolutely not.
Are there any studies to show effectiveness of worming tablets v's potiental chemical harm to the dog? Given that I've a 2 year old at home I'll keep worming every 3 months until I see studies showing effectivness of worming v's time!0 -
The problem with a CRF dog is that meat (even if de-boned) contains a lot of phosphorous, and reducing phosphorous to protect kidney function is a primary goal when feeding a dog with renal insufficiency.
My neighbour has done massive research into raw diets for her elderly CRF dog and what she's doing is slowly (based on blood work) reducing the meat content and replacing with chicken/lamb fat. It's higher in calories but has very little phosphorus in it so when his blood results take a bit of a hike she'll replace a little more just to keep as much protein there as possible but also to make it a bit easier on the kidneys, she's having great results.0 -
If I could add a personal observation, raw fed dogs don't get parasites to the same degree as "others". At this many non believers are rolling their eyes! But healthy wild dogs don't suffer fleas or worms unless on the way out, and raw feeders don't seem to worm. Probably the move to raw stregthens the dogs digestive process and certainly bolsters the immunity no end.
And worming is very hardcore for the system (flea drops are particularly nasty chemicals, as neurotoxins you are advised to wear goggles and gloves, if it gets on your skin wash off immediately, you then put a load on a pup). Just another its ok for them scenario without any grounding in good health practice.
And its so ridiculousy expensive. Now and again perhaps but every 3months, absolutely not.
+1
Although I would argue that dogs that are fed a very good commercial diet can have an equally strong immune system to deal with the pesky critters. My own two are golden oldies now and have never had fleas, mange, scurfy coats etc. I do think nutrition is the cornerstone of good health in our dogs and it amazes me how little time in vet college is devoted to it!
There is definitely a danger in over-using wormers and flea-control products. They do take a toll on the dog's liver and kidneys, and there is also the very real risk of the parasites developing immunity with repeated applications/dosings. (Just read the small print!) My own vet feels there is no real need to routinely give worming products, anti-flea products or vaccination boosters to healthy, adult dogs and cats. Key word there though is healthy. It would be dangerous to suggest that you shouldn't bother worming/defleaing/vaccinating your pet at all. Talk to your vet and tailor the programme to your pet's needs and their exposure to risk. If you have kids or you're pregnant, then that has to be factored in too.
I compromise and worm my dogs at least every 12 months (neighbour's unwormed dogs pooping all over our shared green area) never give them flea products (they've never had fleas) and just vaccinate annually for leptospirosis now.0 -
TooManyDogs wrote: »My neighbour is slowly (based on blood work) reducing the meat content and replacing with chicken/lamb fat. It's higher in calories but has very little phosphorus in it so when his blood results take a bit of a hike she'll replace a little more just to keep as much protein there as possible but also to make it a bit easier on the kidneys, she's having great results.
That's really cool, TMG.I'm a bit concerned about giving too much fat to Boo, in case it sparks off a bit of pancreatitis. The home-cooked diets for CRF dogs suggest things like using chicken skin, cream cheese etc to bump up calories while keeping phos low, but the few times I've made up recipes with a bit more fat than she's used to, it's made Boo sick. She loves her green tripe on a Saturday though.
Your neighbour sounds like she's having great success with it, and fair play to her. Every dog is different.0 -
I don't like feeding cooked protein; she mostly gets raw: eggs, minced lamb, green tripe, frozen fish fillets like haddock and whiting. She gets braised liver occasionally, tuna once a week (for variety) and roast chicken/turkey meat on the very, very rare occasions I cook for myself.
The carbs though are cooked, and are there to bump up the calories. She gets a moderate amount of protein - roughly a gram of protein per pound bodyweight, with an emphasis on high bio-availability. I have no problem feeding a dog a protein-rich diet - I think it's especially important for oldies, so long as they can handle it. The problem with a CRF dog is that meat (even if de-boned) contains a lot of phosphorous, and reducing phosphorous to protect kidney function is a primary goal when feeding a dog with renal insufficiency. When I'm making up recipes for her, I don't worry if it works out very high in protein - it's the phosphorus level I'm watching. So she gets low-phos carbs like sushi rice and potatoes, so I can bump up the meat content as much as possible.
I'm a firm believer in the theraputic value of raw meaty bones for dogs.But they are extremely high in phosphorous, which is why she can only have a bone once in a blue moon now.
She has been fed on exclusively dry foods in the past, including Orijen, but has also been fed raw and most recently (before her diagnosis) Robbies, which is a moist food. My other dog gets half and half Robbies and "Green Dog" dry food and is doing great - touch wood no kidney problems so far. (She's 8 and has bloods and urinanalysis done once a year as part of her annual check up.)
Thanks for the input.
Oh sorry about that, when you said home cooked i literally thought you were cooking it, but you mean home preparing, good on ya!0 -
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TooManyDogs wrote: »Freezing doesn't kill bacteria and is 50/50 to kill nematode eggs. This freezing for 30 days is as much unnecessary as it is unusual. Raw feeders can't be mass freezing meat for 30+ days, carefully labelling each bag! I can only assure you all that nobody else in the raw world is doing that.
Freezing pork to kill paracites was one of the most common pieces of information that kept coming up when I was researching feeding raw, and as pork is only a small part of the diet I found it easy to label it and freeze for 30 days!
Here's a few links a quick google search threw up so you can forgive people for thinking it is necessary to freeze pork.
http://www.njboxers.com/faqs.htm#pork
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raw_feeding (bacteria, viruses, paracites)
http://www.irishdogs.ie/articles/5-common-myths-about-feeding-dogs.html (myth 3)Now and again perhaps but every 3months, absolutely not.
Are there any studies to show effectiveness of worming tablets v's potiental chemical harm to the dog? Given that I've a 2 year old at home I'll keep worming every 3 months until I see studies showing effectivness of worming v's time!
Hey thanks for the email. Very interesting re pork. Having a quick glance in Google scholar says you're spot on there. Freezing for 4 days is killing the worst of the pork parasites! Brilliant, while I stand corrected, I'm delighted with the info.
I still don't really reccomend it though, the bones are far harder and less nutritious, the cheaper cuts fattier and now you have to freeze it for a week. No need for it with chicken fish and beef ready to go.
Re worming, the situation you are in is "well I've taken pain killers every day and I've never felt pain, so damned if I'm gonna stop taking them". The onus isn't on manufacturers to prove harm over YEARS (as opposed to weeks). Researchers neither have the means nor the drive to do such work. Tablets have been removed through the years and the individual ingredients of tablets are nasty. More on this later when I get home.
Point is, you don't need them. Your dog hasn't succumbed to worms because healthy dogs don't. Not because of the tough drugs you have been feeding her. They will naturally keep themselves worm free and there are more natural herbs and the likes that are cheaper and infinitely better for your dog. Small pits of fresh garlic or rosemary for example.
The same argument you use for regular worming has allowed the vaccination situation get to where it is today - humans get an average of 12 in 80 years, dogs over 30 in 15 years "yes but my dogs have never succumbed to those diseases". If there was a drug to stop dogs getting killed by licking their bums they'd push that too.
We are too quick to reach for the chemists pot. I'm over in the states at the moment and nowhere is this more true.0 -
Point is, you don't need them. Your dog hasn't succumbed to worms because healthy dogs don't. Not because of the tough drugs you have been feeding her. They will naturally keep themselves worm free and there are more natural herbs and the likes that are cheaper and infinitely better for your dog. Small pits of fresh garlic or rosemary for example.
I guess I'm more afraid of the potiental of worm eggs and having my little girl and my little niece living at home with 9 dogs. Just so I have it correct, you're saying it's unlikely for the dogs to have worms or unlikely for them to be affected by any potiental worms they do have? And is there any research (independant or otherwise) giving an idea of the actual burden levels in modern domestic dogs? While I do believe pharma companies lead us to believe we need far more pharmaceutical products than we strictly do I'd hate to reduce some products without some factual studies to go on.
Before I had the baby the dogs got wormed maybe every 6 months, I never give them preventative treatment for fleas and ticks so I'm very happy to give less medical products if I know for sure it's safe for the entire household and not just the dogs to do so. Unfortunately the kids do revolting kid things and eat soil, lick the patio and endlessly kiss the dogs if they can get away with it so I'd hate to take a chance!
I guess I'm a bit paranoid now having fostered so many abandoned pups and when you give them a worm dose what's deposited is simply horrific :eek: I'd love to have something to go on to reduce the number of worming doses they get so if you ever come across anything I'd appreciate it if you sent it my way.0 -
TooManyDogs wrote: »Point is, you don't need them. Your dog hasn't succumbed to worms because healthy dogs don't. Not because of the tough drugs you have been feeding her. They will naturally keep themselves worm free and there are more natural herbs and the likes that are cheaper and infinitely better for your dog. Small pits of fresh garlic or rosemary for example.
I guess I'm more afraid of the potiental of worm eggs and having my little girl and my little niece living at home with 9 dogs. Just so I have it correct, you're saying it's unlikely for the dogs to have worms or unlikely for them to be affected by any potiental worms they do have? And is there any research (independant or otherwise) giving an idea of the actual burden levels in modern domestic dogs? While I do believe pharma companies lead us to believe we need far more pharmaceutical products than we strictly do I'd hate to reduce some products without some factual studies to go on.
Before I had the baby the dogs got wormed maybe every 6 months, I never give them preventative treatment for fleas and ticks so I'm very happy to give less medical products if I know for sure it's safe for the entire household and not just the dogs to do so. Unfortunately the kids do revolting kid things and eat soil, lick the patio and endlessly kiss the dogs if they can get away with it so I'd hate to take a chance!
I guess I'm a bit paranoid now having fostered so many abandoned pups and when you give them a worm dose what's deposited is simply horrific :eek: I'd love to have something to go on to reduce the number of worming doses they get so if you ever come across anything I'd appreciate it if you sent it my way.
Yes they're realistic, sound and common concerns you have. I can send you what I have when i get home. It will alleviate many of your concerns, especially re dog human zoonosis.
Yes worked in the shelters for years, the worms that come out after dose is upsetting but these are seriously stressed, sometimes sick, immunity compromised animals. While initial dose is crucial here (and one repeat), meat and love will take care of the rest!0 -
Yes they're realistic, sound and common concerns you have. I can send you what I have when i get home. It will alleviate many of your concerns, especially re dog human zoonosis.
That'd be great, I'd really appreciate it.Yes worked in the shelters for years, the worms that come out after dose is upsetting but these are seriously stressed, sometimes sick, immunity compromised animals. While initial dose is crucial here (and one repeat), meat and love will take care of the rest!
I know it's a paranoia now, but when the poo nearly gets up and walks away it kinda leaves a mark! I'm not the greatest with things like bacteria/parasites, I guess training as a microbiologist didn't do me too many favours, when the child comes near me with a snotty nose or coughs on my dinner I nearly jump out of my skin0 -
TooManyDogs wrote: »I know it's a paranoia now, but when the poo nearly gets up and walks away it kinda leaves a mark!
I don't know whether to laugh or squirm at this comment:D
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I was at a lecture recently on parasites and small animals. I got this nugget of info, but unfortunately the speaker (Peter Lynch MVB) didn't mention the author of the report:
Toxocara canis is zoonotic and can cause blindness. In a survey conducted 10-15 years ago of 1000 children aged between 8-10yrs the following rates of infection by geographical area were detected:
• London – less than 10% of children infected
• Ireland – 12-13% children infected
• Caribbean – 70% infected
Peter thought that the 12-13 per cent infection rate in Ireland was probably quite a conservative estimate.
I haven't come across any info to suggest that using worming/defleaing products leads to any long-term harm to the dog, but they do require processing by the liver and kidney in the same way that all drugs do, including anaesthetics. I know that anaesthesia is best avoided for CRF dogs - so perhaps it follows that they should avoid un-neccessary medications, also. So, healthy dogs are safe to treat per the manufacturer's instructions, but perhaps health-compromised dogs should only be treated if absolutely necessary? (Thinking aloud here.)
The likes of Advocate, Drontal etc. can also produce some very serious reactions. There's an article on drug reactions in a copy of the Irish Veterinary Journal recently. I'll try and find it. The effects of drug products have to be established within a test group of dogs before the drugs company can have the product licenced. The scientific papers are probably out there, if you go looking. There's great product info on the Irish Medicines Board - have a look at the veterinary products section.0 -
Peter thought that the 12-13 per cent infection rate in Ireland was probably quite a conservative estimate.
Did he give any idea as to whether that statistic was relavent these days? I have to say I didn't realise it was as high as that. Did he break down the stats into how affected the children were? I'm wondering if it's like toxoplasmosis, everyone is afraid of it but in reality a lot more people have contracted it at some stage and not realised it. What percentage of those children did get the infection badly enough to suffer blindness
See these are the details my poor science brain needs before I could take the risk not to worm the dogs as regularily as I have been doing0 -
I was at a lecture recently on parasites and small animals. I got this nugget of info, but unfortunately the speaker (Peter Lynch MVB) didn't mention the author of the report:
Toxocara canis is zoonotic and can cause blindness. In a survey conducted 10-15 years ago of 1000 children aged between 8-10yrs the following rates of infection by geographical area were detected:
• London – less than 10% of children infected
• Ireland – 12-13% children infected
• Caribbean – 70% infected
Peter thought that the 12-13 per cent infection rate in Ireland was probably quite a conservative estimate.
Wow, that seems quite high. Very interesting and a very grounded worry, Toxocara canis is the main reason are dogs are wormed. However, invariably the pups are passed the eggs by the pregnant bitch, with whole litters infected and is why initially worming is recommended in young pups who's weak systems are easy to infiltrate in the first few weeks anyway.
But 13% in Ireland? Any chance of a study out there or anything? I mean I'm looking at recent figures for Italy (which has the highest free roaming population of wild dogs around, something Ireland knows little to nothing of). They tested the dirtiest country dogs, urban dogs all across the board, and found the parasite to be 20 - 40% prevalent in the dog population but analysis of blood serum of the population revealed only a 1.6% prevalence of antibodies for the worm, meaning only 1.6% of Itallians had actually encountered the worm in some form at some stage.
Now how could Ireland fare nine times worse?!! Was this guy working for anyone (there are so few authentically independent operators out there).
Interesting....0 -
Day two on the raw food buzz so far so good. Feed them medium rare meat with their kibble all last week. Gave them two small portions yesterday and a 3/4 amount today. going for the full servings tomorrow. Nice lean meat without much bones and a bit of veg all this week till they get used to it.
Gonna avoid pork as its not worth the effort.
Thanks for all the stuff on the worms. A good parasite doesn't effect its host as its in its own interest to keep them healthy. Even so I'm just gonna worm them once every four months as I have been doing. Be careful with fish. Intestinal parisites are normal even in healthy fish. I would gut them first even if it says its ok to feed whole fish somewhere(they're probably assuming you bought it somewhere)
Gonna take some pics of the dogs and put them up to show any effects. There pretty healthy as it is. the older fella(20 months0 has a bit of plaque on his teeth and he seems a bit underweight.
A friend of mine has a westie with brick red fur around its paws and about two inches up its legs. They've had problems with her coat since they got her. She's on Royal canin at the moment but they've been through quite a few brands. Told them to try giving her raw food. Should be interesting... Anyone come across this red feet condition before?
Anyone give there dogs a prebiotic or yogurt. Not really sure if I need to bother. Is this only if they're having problems. The beta food they were on before has a natural prebiotic in so i'm just assuming thats enough to get them going.0 -
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Ronnie Beck wrote: »
Anyone give there dogs a prebiotic or yogurt.
Mine get a spoon of natural yogurt on their dinner each evening, it's meant to keep the farts down0
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