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Changing from dry dog food to raw/barf
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Thanks all for confirming I have not lost my average maths skills!!
I am going to take a trip to Keypak in the next day or so up in Clonee as I know they have a trade counter to see what deals they have, surely they will have great offer there per kg.
Andrea, I've just booked Buddy into the 4th and 27th December shows in Cloghran no doubt I will see you there and you can introduce me to this guy, cheers for that.
I know dogsfirst was using prices he was getting from lidl and other places I had a feeling some of the prices could have been made cheaper, as far as I am aware lidl veg is cheaper than most other stores, or so i'm told when talking about food prices in work.
Will be interested to see how you get on there in Keypak.
Yes Lidl do those super 6 offers weekly if you have dogs that will eat it. I am restricted to mainly carrot and small amounts of everything else but sometimes their carrots are on for 49c /kg.
I think there is a poultry farm in cavan too.0 -
i worked in a place where we had to get dog food training. basically im too lazy to read of all what was posted and why your doing it, but the man doing it said dry nuts are better than the wet food as its better for teeth and the things which go into it. he advised to stay away from the cans . sorry if this is irrelevant but just thought i should let you know.
Tacofries, I think what he said is a gross over-generalisation. First of all, you have to take the quality of the ingredients into account. A tin of lightly-cooked green tripe is going to be much better for a dog than a cup of Bakers' Complete, for example.
Another school of thought now that is gaining ground is that wet food is better for the dog as there is less toll on the kidneys. A life-long dry food diet has been linked to chronic renal failure in older cats. Cats (and dogs) in the wild don't a lot of fresh water - they get enough moisture from the fresh prey they eat. So cats in particular don't necessarily drink enough water to compensate for the dehydrated, dry food.
Also, what scientific evidence there is that dry food is better for the dog's teeth has been drummed up by... Yes, you guessed it, the dry dog food companies like Royal Canin! If you look at the research papers they base the advertising on, you'll find that the improvement in oral condition when feeding dry v. wet is minimal. If was really concerned about the effects of diet on my dogs' teeth, then I'd go over to a BARF/raw meaty bones diet. My friend's GSD is nearly 4, is fed raw and has the pearly whites of a newborn puppy
My dog is on a soft food diet as I have to home-cook for her. (She has kidney disease.) I can't give her raw bones anymore as they are too high in phosphorous. She's no longer on Orijen as the very high protein content is too much hard work for her kidneys. Now she gets standard amounts of protein in her diet, with an emphasis on highly bio-available protein such as eggs and lamb. She gets raw mince, boneless tinned fish and cooked carbs like potato, rice, carrots. Her teeth are immaculate. I give her Plaque Off in her food every day and rub dog toothpaste on her teeth.
Edited to add: Just read the booklet at that link (www.dogsfirst.ie) and there are some inaccuracies in there, from my own general reading on dog nutrition. Take any info on the web by raw/BARF enthusiasts with a pinch of salt, and read around the subject as much as you can.0 -
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That sounds fantastic Nice Mr. Butcher! :P
I'd space out the offal to one or non-consecutive two days a week - it's very rich.
What they'll be getting is incomparably better than the Beta. :P
Edited to add: With them eating raw muscle meat and raw offal they have a slightly greater risk of contracting worms than a dog fed on cooked food. I would worm them regularly with a product that does ascarids, nematodes and platyhelminths (that's roundworm, lungworm, whipworm tapeworm to you and me.) Read the product info to be sure. I think Zantec or Drontal do all of the above.0 -
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Just on the presence of worms - I used to look in my dogs' poop after they'd been wormed, to see if there were any worms or worm segments. I was always a proud mother when I didn't see any, thinking they mustn't have had worms then.
Wrong! :eek: The likes of Drontal actually cause the worm to disintegrate in the intestine, so you won't see worms being passed out. Only with the likes of Parazole, which paralyses the worms, might you see something coming out the other end.
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Wrong! :eek: The likes of Drontal actually cause the worm to disintegrate in the intestine, so you won't see worms being passed out. Only with the likes of Parazole, which paralyses the worms, might you see something coming out the other end.
That I didn't know! Now I'm wondering what my wormer does. Would help if I remembered the name..... think it's Zantec or something???0 -
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Zantec has precisely the same ingredients as Drontal.
(Incidentally I also wormed myself this year because I have had so much contact with wormy pups and kittens. Was congratulating myself that it had "no visible effect" until I found about the above. Yeuch!)0 -
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My dog is on a soft food diet as I have to home-cook for her. (She has kidney disease.) I can't give her raw bones anymore as they are too high in phosphorous. She's no longer on Orijen as the very high protein content is too much hard work for her kidneys. Now she gets standard amounts of protein in her diet, with an emphasis on highly bio-available protein such as eggs and lamb. She gets raw mince, boneless tinned fish and cooked carbs like potato, rice, carrots. Her teeth are immaculate. I give her Plaque Off in her food every day and rub dog toothpaste on her teeth.
Edited to add: Just read the booklet at that link (www.dogsfirst.ie) and there are some inaccuracies in there, from my own general reading on dog nutrition. Take any info on the web by raw/BARF enthusiasts with a pinch of salt, and read around the subject as much as you can.
Hi boomers, away at moment so must be brief (which will be unusual for me!).
Thanks for the comments. Could you help us out and perhaps highlight the inaccuracies in the booklet you found? While it us only a quick little general guide for newbies, I lecture on canine nutrition to vets here and abroad. While i am absolutely a raw enthusiast, it has taken me many years of intensive research to get here. Thus it is vital the info I am putting our is on the money.
Re your dogs kidney disease, how far gone is she? Every study conducted to date shows that even dogs with close to end stage kidney failure (90% collapse) can deal adequately with high protein contents, such as orijen and above, and this isn't just carnivorous dogs with meat adapted kidneys, it is also the case in human kidney patients (bar a few rarer conditions). The key to your dogs ruined kidneys is likely to be protein quality, not quantity. So when you say cook the food for her, denaturing the protein (think cooking eggs), not only making it more antigenic for the carnivore thereby creating extra work for the kidneys with the increase of possible immunoglobulins, but more importantly you are reducing the digestibility of the protein, which is very much recommended against for dogs (and humans) with kidney disease. Thus cooked protein (all dry food) is not recommended for kidney patients. Only highly digestible (thus raw animal protein) is recommended for your dog.
You're spot on with cutting out the chewable bones in her diet. To be clear to readers though, bones are not the cause, undoubtedly your girl was dry fed pre kidney failure and it wasn't the edible bones that caused the problem. These are a vital part of a dogs nutrition, more than just the best toothbrush.
See previous posts on kidney disease for recommended reading, or simply type "protein + kidney disease + dogs" into Google scholar.
Seems thus post wasn't so short after all......
Hope it helps!0 -
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I don't like feeding cooked protein; she mostly gets raw: eggs, minced lamb, green tripe, frozen fish fillets like haddock and whiting. She gets braised liver occasionally, tuna once a week (for variety) and roast chicken/turkey meat on the very, very rare occasions I cook for myself. The carbs though are cooked, and are there to bump up the calories. She gets a moderate amount of protein - roughly a gram of protein per pound bodyweight, with an emphasis on high bio-availability. I have no problem feeding a dog a protein-rich diet - I think it's especially important for oldies, so long as they can handle it. The problem with a CRF dog is that meat (even if de-boned) contains a lot of phosphorous, and reducing phosphorous to protect kidney function is a primary goal when feeding a dog with renal insufficiency. When I'm making up recipes for her, I don't worry if it works out very high in protein - it's the phosphorus level I'm watching. So she gets low-phos carbs like sushi rice and potatoes, so I can bump up the meat content as much as possible.
I'm a firm believer in the theraputic value of raw meaty bones for dogs. But they are extremely high in phosphorous, which is why she can only have a bone once in a blue moon now.
She has been fed on exclusively dry foods in the past, including Orijen, but has also been fed raw and most recently (before her diagnosis) Robbies, which is a moist food. My other dog gets half and half Robbies and "Green Dog" dry food and is doing great - touch wood no kidney problems so far. (She's 8 and has bloods and urinanalysis done once a year as part of her annual check up.)
Thanks for the input. 0 -
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If I could add a personal observation, raw fed dogs don't get parasites to the same degree as "others". At this many non believers are rolling their eyes! But healthy wild dogs don't suffer fleas or worms unless on the way out, and raw feeders don't seem to worm. Probably the move to raw stregthens the dogs digestive process and certainly bolsters the immunity no end.
And worming is very hardcore for the system (flea drops are particularly nasty chemicals, as neurotoxins you are advised to wear goggles and gloves, if it gets on your skin wash off immediately, you then put a load on a pup). Just another its ok for them scenario without any grounding in good health practice.
And its so ridiculousy expensive. Now and again perhaps but every 3months, absolutely not.
+1
Although I would argue that dogs that are fed a very good commercial diet can have an equally strong immune system to deal with the pesky critters. My own two are golden oldies now and have never had fleas, mange, scurfy coats etc. I do think nutrition is the cornerstone of good health in our dogs and it amazes me how little time in vet college is devoted to it!
There is definitely a danger in over-using wormers and flea-control products. They do take a toll on the dog's liver and kidneys, and there is also the very real risk of the parasites developing immunity with repeated applications/dosings. (Just read the small print!) My own vet feels there is no real need to routinely give worming products, anti-flea products or vaccination boosters to healthy, adult dogs and cats. Key word there though is healthy. It would be dangerous to suggest that you shouldn't bother worming/defleaing/vaccinating your pet at all. Talk to your vet and tailor the programme to your pet's needs and their exposure to risk. If you have kids or you're pregnant, then that has to be factored in too.
I compromise and worm my dogs at least every 12 months (neighbour's unwormed dogs pooping all over our shared green area) never give them flea products (they've never had fleas) and just vaccinate annually for leptospirosis now.0 -
TooManyDogs wrote: »My neighbour is slowly (based on blood work) reducing the meat content and replacing with chicken/lamb fat. It's higher in calories but has very little phosphorus in it so when his blood results take a bit of a hike she'll replace a little more just to keep as much protein there as possible but also to make it a bit easier on the kidneys, she's having great results.
That's really cool, TMG. I'm a bit concerned about giving too much fat to Boo, in case it sparks off a bit of pancreatitis. The home-cooked diets for CRF dogs suggest things like using chicken skin, cream cheese etc to bump up calories while keeping phos low, but the few times I've made up recipes with a bit more fat than she's used to, it's made Boo sick. She loves her green tripe on a Saturday though.
Your neighbour sounds like she's having great success with it, and fair play to her. Every dog is different. 0 -
I don't like feeding cooked protein; she mostly gets raw: eggs, minced lamb, green tripe, frozen fish fillets like haddock and whiting. She gets braised liver occasionally, tuna once a week (for variety) and roast chicken/turkey meat on the very, very rare occasions I cook for myself. The carbs though are cooked, and are there to bump up the calories. She gets a moderate amount of protein - roughly a gram of protein per pound bodyweight, with an emphasis on high bio-availability. I have no problem feeding a dog a protein-rich diet - I think it's especially important for oldies, so long as they can handle it. The problem with a CRF dog is that meat (even if de-boned) contains a lot of phosphorous, and reducing phosphorous to protect kidney function is a primary goal when feeding a dog with renal insufficiency. When I'm making up recipes for her, I don't worry if it works out very high in protein - it's the phosphorus level I'm watching. So she gets low-phos carbs like sushi rice and potatoes, so I can bump up the meat content as much as possible.
I'm a firm believer in the theraputic value of raw meaty bones for dogs. But they are extremely high in phosphorous, which is why she can only have a bone once in a blue moon now.
She has been fed on exclusively dry foods in the past, including Orijen, but has also been fed raw and most recently (before her diagnosis) Robbies, which is a moist food. My other dog gets half and half Robbies and "Green Dog" dry food and is doing great - touch wood no kidney problems so far. (She's 8 and has bloods and urinanalysis done once a year as part of her annual check up.)
Thanks for the input.
Oh sorry about that, when you said home cooked i literally thought you were cooking it, but you mean home preparing, good on ya!0 -
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Yes they're realistic, sound and common concerns you have. I can send you what I have when i get home. It will alleviate many of your concerns, especially re dog human zoonosis.
That'd be great, I'd really appreciate it.Yes worked in the shelters for years, the worms that come out after dose is upsetting but these are seriously stressed, sometimes sick, immunity compromised animals. While initial dose is crucial here (and one repeat), meat and love will take care of the rest!
I know it's a paranoia now, but when the poo nearly gets up and walks away it kinda leaves a mark! I'm not the greatest with things like bacteria/parasites, I guess training as a microbiologist didn't do me too many favours, when the child comes near me with a snotty nose or coughs on my dinner I nearly jump out of my skin 0 -
TooManyDogs wrote: »I know it's a paranoia now, but when the poo nearly gets up and walks away it kinda leaves a mark!
I don't know whether to laugh or squirm at this comment
:D 0 -
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Peter thought that the 12-13 per cent infection rate in Ireland was probably quite a conservative estimate.
Did he give any idea as to whether that statistic was relavent these days? I have to say I didn't realise it was as high as that. Did he break down the stats into how affected the children were? I'm wondering if it's like toxoplasmosis, everyone is afraid of it but in reality a lot more people have contracted it at some stage and not realised it. What percentage of those children did get the infection badly enough to suffer blindness
See these are the details my poor science brain needs before I could take the risk not to worm the dogs as regularily as I have been doing 0 -
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Ronnie Beck wrote: »
Anyone give there dogs a prebiotic or yogurt.
Mine get a spoon of natural yogurt on their dinner each evening, it's meant to keep the farts down 0
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