"Leap" into the unknown: The feedback thread

AlekSmart

AlekSmart wrote: »

Might have at one point,however,the USC,Household Charge,Water Rates and alla dah have been a learning curve for Irish Administrators...once sacroanct "entitlements" can be removed.....

Bear in mind that of the 748,000 + Free Travel Passes,less than 50% are held by persons of Pensionable Age,so that neatly deals with the "Old Age Pass" arguement.....

Expect a far more targetted OAP FREE Travel Pass,accompanied by a "Concessionary Fare " scheme for the remainder.....;)

Worth updating the stats to the latest 2013 figures....

782,529 with the Pensioner to Total ratio remaining less than 50%.

AlekSmart

Stevek101 wrote: »

Some info from the Leap Card team was announced at the SITE Project back in June 13th. Slide show can be found here.

Most interesting bits of info are By Q4 we should have transfer rebates and the system live in Galway, Waterford and Limerick. A potential smart phone app with NFC capabilities is being looked at. New Dublin Bus ticket machines late 2015, that'll bring a smile to a few faces on here.

With a bit of luck,BAC will trial the Init ticketing system,which would allow full integration of the current AVL system into a single interface.

Although,it has to be said Parkeon/Wayfarer have a strong established presence ....;)

Julius Seizure

AlekSmart wrote: »

With a bit of luck,BAC will trial the Init ticketing system,which would allow full integration of the current AVL system into a single interface.

Although,it has to be said Parkeon/Wayfarer have a strong established presence ....;)

Hopefully the new system will be more flexible and less driver dependant. In Belgium they use Prodata systems and have even had smart card like features on magstripe cards (choose amount of zones/ticket tips to deduct). Their new MoBIB (like leap) readers are lovely, they have touchscreens that let you change the zone and amount of passengers travelling and charge it all to the one card. They have many of these tag on devices through the buses and trams so you do it all once you're onboard, really helps with dwell times, and zero driver interaction needed.

bk

Oh.... Lots of exciting stuff in this slide.

EMV is Europay, MasterCard and Visa, so I assume that means support for contactless debit cards (from AIB, etc.). They have already implemented this in London with Oyster.

This is great news, it means those who just use the Leap e-wallet don't even need a Leap card, they can just use their bank debit card. People visiting Ireland from abroad won't even need to get a Leap card, just use their existing debit card.

I assume this feature will first need the new Dublin Bus ticket machines.

I'd love to help trial this if anyone from Leap is reading this

They also mention "Leap account based", I assume this means the Leap card just contains your unique ID and no actual tickets. Tickets are stored in their database and the ticket machines communicate with the database over the internet to deduct tickets, etc. Obviously latency would be the major concern here.

Hopefully these new ticket machines will mean that tickets purchased online can be applied on Dublin Bus.

I also hope this will lead them to doing tag-on and tag-off on Dublin Bus.

Last week I was on the bus, it pulled up to a stop with more then 30 Spanish students waiting and I cringed thinking we would be there all day.

I was shocked at how quickly they boarded, they all had some sort of leap/prepaid ticket and all just used the right hand side reader. They all beeped through in less then 30 seconds! Really I couldn't believe how fast it was for all of them to board.

Then there was about 5 Irish people who paid by a mix of cash and leap with driver interaction. It took almost twice as long for these people to board then the 30 students!!

It really drove home to me the need to move to either a completely flat fare on Dublin bus or high cash flat fare and tag-on and tag-off on Dublin Bus with no driver interaction.

Yes, even on single door buses, I believe tagging-off * will be quicker then the very slow driver Leap interaction. Specially with new much faster ticket machines and leap card readers. Of course dual door buses will benefit from this even more.

* Obviously people going over the max fare don't need to tag-off.

Aard

While there is no doubt that there is huge scope for rationalisation of the stage fare system both Leap and cash, I think more emphasis should be put on period tickets than there is at present. The single fare to monthly ticket ratio in Dublin is a bit expensive compared to other cities. If more people had a monthly or annual ticket, then the few fumblers wouldn't be such a problem. I get the impression that some people will dilly-dally no matter what.

That ratio can be narrowed either by increasing single journey fares, or reducing the price of period tickets.

A recent article in the Guardian tells about a push in Helsinki towards a model of simply "buying time" on the transport network. There are barriers in place towards facilitating transfers to other modes in Dublin atm. A study I was part of showed that about 30% of suburban bus users transferred to other modes in the city centre, despite there being barriers. I believe that there's a lot of latent demand for transferring in Dublin, and Leap has the opportunity to facilitate that. The best way, imho, is to bundle as many transport options as possible into a single monthly/annual ticket.

I'm sure there are many impediments to achieving that, but as a medium-term goal, I think it should be feasible.

bk

Aard wrote: »

While there is no doubt that there is huge scope for rationalisation of the stage fare system both Leap and cash, I think more emphasis should be put on period tickets than there is at present. The single fare to monthly ticket ratio in Dublin is a bit expensive compared to other cities. If more people had a monthly or annual ticket, then the few fumblers wouldn't be such a problem. I get the impression that some people will dilly-dally no matter what.

That ratio can be narrowed either by increasing single journey fares, or reducing the price of period tickets.

I disagree. The tax saver tickets are fantastic value for money and are pretty heavily advertised, but I still know many people who could avail of it but don't.

Some people just can't be bothered, others just can't understand the savings to be made, most can't afford the upfront monthly/yealry cost.

The last point is an important one, my girlfriend keeps running out of credit on her leap card and regularly tops it up. I keep telling her how great the auto-topup system is, but the truth is she just can't afford the €30 being taken out of her account every time. So instead it is frequent €10 in store topups.

I believe this may be true for many if not most people. Many people just don't like the idea of handing over tens or even hundreds of Euros up front, even if it saves them money over a long time. Most people are still living week to week.

I don't know of any country in Europe where prepaid tickets outstrip par as you go. Even Oyster in London pay-as-you-go is the majority of tickets used.

So therefore, IMO the priority most be on making pay-as-you go as quick as possible.

Firstly by reducing cash payments as much as possible with a single high (e.g. €3) cash fare and eventually eliminating it completely like they have done in London.

Second, tag-on and tag-off with zero driver interaction for Leap usage.

One area I don't agree with you, I think the tax saver tickets should be made easier to get and use. At the moment, there are many tax payers who can't avail of it either because they are self employed or their company doesn't offer the scheme (for instance many small companies).

I'd like to see it instead being run either by the NTA or Revenue from their website and made available to all tax payers.

I also wonder would it be possible to scrap the scheme completely and instead drop the price of the monthly, yearly tickets, etc. by 52% to all people.

Obviously more people would take it up then (a good thing) but I wonder if it actually wouldn't cost too much more due to eliminating the costs of administrating the scheme. Just an interesting thought.

Aard wrote: »

A recent article in the Guardian tells about a push in Helsinki towards a model of simply "buying time" on the transport network. There are barriers in place towards facilitating transfers to other modes in Dublin atm. A study I was part of showed that about 30% of suburban bus users transferred to other modes in the city centre, despite there being barriers. I believe that there's a lot of latent demand for transferring in Dublin, and Leap has the opportunity to facilitate that. The best way, imho, is to bundle as many transport options as possible into a single monthly/annual ticket.

I'm sure there are many impediments to achieving that, but as a medium-term goal, I think it should be feasible.

I think Amsterdam show a better way of high degree of integration, without the need for expensive monthly and yearly tickets.

They have a system where you pay per km you travel. It works by:

1) You pay 80c on the first bus/tram/metro you tag-on
2) You then pay a charge per km travelled (e.g. 14c per km), calculated when you tag-off *
3) If you board another bus/tram/metro within 30 minutes, then you don't pay the 80c again, just the per km charge.

Brilliant system IMO that promotes people taking multiple forms of transport, rather then punishing them.

The system has a great deal of flexibility in it. For instance the per km charge is different if you take a bus/tram/metro, reflecting the different running costs of each system. For instance Swords Express would have a higher per km charge then Dublin Bus, given the different nature of their services.

You could also use this to promote different usages. For instance a lower per km rate off peak or a higher rate after 12 (e.g. Nitelink).

I think this is the best ticketing system in the world and I'd love to see it introduced here in Ireland and I think it would work well.

Aard

I understand your admiration of the Dutch OV system. I admit that when I have visited Holland I have simply used the hourly/daily/weekly tickets. The per-km fare system is an interesting concept and deserves consideration. Personally, the best public transport system I've used was that in Oslo. I have travelled all over Oslo, not just in the centre, and it was the easiest system to navigate and pay for. It operates on a flat fare of about 30kr or 50kr cash, whereas a monthly ticket is 650kr. That's about €3.50, €6.00, and €78.00 respectively. €78 for monthly travel on bus, tram, metro, train, and boat in already hyper-expensive Oslo is a bargain.

smellmepower

I'd definitely use auto top-up if the minimum was €10-15 instead of €30.Can't afford 30 up front out of my account,same for most of my friends who bother to use Leap.

Pain in the arse queuing in Londis to top up by 10 every few days,and then waiting around for the shop assistant to actually top it up.Would also be handy if there were a few dedicated Leap TVM's around the City Centre.One near College Green/Central Bank would be ideal.

steveblack

The road map picture has it that ticket machines will be updated starting the middle of 2015, thats too late to wait. The machines are seriously underpowered today, each time new ticket options are added it increases the operation time.
Was taking to colleague during the week and they agreed the ticket machines are getting slower, no exaggeration it can be delayed 10-15 seconds before the Leap card is read by the drivers ticket machine, does not happen all the time, but 3 or 4 times per busy stop can add up to a substantial delay over the course of a busy route.
The NTA should upgrade the ticket machines before they do anything else.

LXFlyer

Bear in mind that is going to need a lot of dosh, something that's not in plentiful supply right now - that's not something they can magic overnight.

markpb

lxflyer wrote: »

Bear in mind that is going to need a lot of dosh, something that's not in plentiful supply right now - that's not something they can magic overnight.

And it would have to go through a process of specifications, tendering, development, testing, driver training (which they can only do at certain times of the year) and a phased deployment. Even up they started now, I'm not sure it'll be done by the end of 2015.

bk

In fairness though, this has been a major problem for the last two years now. So really no excuse for taking so long to replace the ticket machines.

As for cost, there are 900 Dublin Bus. I'd be shocked if it cost more then €2000 per bus. So that would be max 1.8 million. A relatively small amount in the context of public transport projects and well worth it to fix this major issue.

devnull

You need to add in training, machine installation, changing of backend systems and testing and all other manner of things, there is more to it than simply buying the machine

punisher5112

Wafarer machines could be upgraded fairly easily and I'm sure there woiuld be no problem with a new faster version to fit in the same housing plate.

As others have said it should be tag on/off and much faster as having so many different types of tickets loaded slow it down very badly.

There badly needs to be RPU units set up checking all routes permanently for those who pretend to swipe their smart card or when it beeps 4 times still just walk on and can on occasion get away as it's so busy and by the time it says on the ticket machine they are well gone leaving it difficult to know who it was.

Victor

bk wrote: »

Last week I was on the bus, it pulled up to a stop with more then 30 Spanish students waiting and I cringed thinking we would be there all day.

I was shocked at how quickly they boarded, they all had some sort of leap/prepaid ticket and all just used the right hand side reader. They all beeped through in less then 30 seconds! Really I couldn't believe how fast it was for all of them to board.

There is a Dublin Bus multi-week ticket aimed at language students.

syklops

I don't know of any country in Europe where prepaid tickets outstrip par as you go. Even Oyster in London pay-as-you-go is the majority of tickets used.

The Czech Republic. Everyone has either a monthly or yearly ticket. Works on both tram and bus. No tagging on/off, you simply get on, and when challenged you show your ticket ticket to the inspector. .

AlekSmart

steveblack wrote: »

The road map picture has it that ticket machines will be updated starting the middle of 2015, thats too late to wait. The machines are seriously underpowered today, each time new ticket options are added it increases the operation time.
Was taking to colleague during the week and they agreed the ticket machines are getting slower, no exaggeration it can be delayed 10-15 seconds before the Leap card is read by the drivers ticket machine, does not happen all the time, but 3 or 4 times per busy stop can add up to a substantial delay over the course of a busy route.
The NTA should upgrade the ticket machines before they do anything else.

As another poster refers,it's not simply about a new machine per se.

Modern Ticketing and validation systems are making very fast advances and tend now to be "bundled" into other support functions such as RPTI and AVLS...currently the BAC fleet runs 3 seperate units from Tait Radio/Init/Wayfarer with an interface into the Electronic Scrolls also a factor.

By far and away the most serious (and worsening) problem is the time lag before the Leapcard Menu goes live (TTL) when moving from the Cash default.

Sadly, Steveblack does not exaggurate with his 10-15 second figure,which although a worst-case scenario,accurately reflects an average TTL for a cold present of c.5-7 seconds.

The problem for Leapcard is very real and is about PERCEPTION....The undecided traveller sees the (now constant) delays in Leapcard payment and chooses to stick with cash OR worse still,decides not to top-up their own Leapcard and REVERT to cash...(A scenario which IS occuring ).

The root cause,is the requirement for the Wayfarer Machine to deal with the Dual Mode transaction with it's 16 differing Cash/Purse Fares and the constant requirement to switch back and forth between them.

However,another issue lumbering along in the background,is the increasing cost of cash-handling when correlated against a falling amount of cash being harvested...these figures are now causing some concern as Irish Banks seek to maximize their profits from such things as money handling :mad:

Without doubt TfL has upped the ante with the abandonment of Cash transactions on London Buses...I would sugggest that the NTA will have it's hand forced on this one somewhat quicker than it had planned.

Given the scale and intent of the Integrated Ticketing Programme,this current situation should NEVER have developed....adequate and well researched planning would have seen the ITS hardware fit-for-purpose from Day 1 rather than playing catch-up as it now is...:(

KungPao

Okay, what am I missing here!:

Rambler 30 Day Adult €137.50

But:

Leap Card maxes out at €27.50 per week i.e. €110 for a month


Am I missing something really obvious here? Why would one buy the rambler?

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

bg07

Fred Swanson wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Also there is an additional €1 charge to use the longer distance xpresso services that is not included in the leap cap but is covered by the rambler. This is potentially €40 extra on top of the leap cap that some bus customers have to pay

LXFlyer

bg07 wrote: »

Also there is an additional €1 charge to use the longer distance xpresso services that is not included in the leap cap but is covered by the rambler. This is potentially €40 extra on top of the leap cap that some bus customers have to pay

The rambler also includes the 747 Airlink, which the cap on LEAP does not.

Van.Bosch

On the 33x this morning, the validator on the right was broken so the driver got everyone to use his machine. This slowed boarding down significantly and the bus was 10 minutes late 20 mins into its route.

Most people on this route have annual/monthly tickets but I suppose checking it is still required. Most buses I've been on in this case just wave you through. Is it common to use the driver machine? I suppose fair play to him for not just taking the easy option

punisher5112

Van.Bosch wrote: »

On the 33x this morning, the validator on the right was broken so the driver got everyone to use his machine. This slowed boarding down significantly and the bus was 10 minutes late 20 mins into its route.

Most people on this route have annual/monthly tickets but I suppose checking it is still required. Most buses I've been on in this case just wave you through. Is it common to use the driver machine? I suppose fair play to him for not just taking the easy option

If the whole lot was down then the norm would be to call control to let them know and then you would be told to carry for free but when the drivers machine was working he done the right thing.

All drivers as you said can be different and it's only losing the company money and could cause trouble if the bus were to be ticket checked.

I keep putting in reports about the machines but might aswel throw the docket out. Machines are slow, out of date and terrible to use.

steveblack

punisher5112 wrote: »

could cause trouble if the bus were to be ticket checked.

Driver wont be in trouble, its the responsibility of the passenger to have a valid ticket, tag on.

punisher5112

steveblack wrote: »

Driver wont be in trouble, its the responsibility of the passenger to have a valid ticket, tag on.

Drivers have been brought upstairs and are now receiving letters for been to far ahead in the field.

I have found a lot of the students are now following the Irish with pretending to validate their tickets and caught a load doing this yesterday and also pretending they had tickets when they actually did not as in big groups they were just filtering through with the rest.

1 journey there were 5 next journey 3 then the last journey a load using child tickets and school travel 90 and aslo trying to pay child fare loaded with drink and bottles and cans in hand.

It's great when people actually know how to use their Leap and figure out the screen allows them to see their balance and also how many days left on a rambler if they have one on it.

The Leap card should be able to be debited even if it has gone over. Sort of like a ghost transaction as the company could still get back the money if that card is topped up at least if they were registered cards.
I understand this may not be such a good idea for non registered as they could just throw away the card if they used over the €5 deposit.

I am getting so many these days that have over drawn and expect to be able to travel for free and this is a lot.
Usually told oh just topped it up yetserday or I had €10 on it yesterday etc etc...

SandyfordGuy

Honestly when the validator isn't working I'm always allowed to travel for free by the driver as are other passengers since I always use the flat fare anyway. But they seem to charge the people who are going a shorter distance at the ticket machine.

I presume since they would not have used the RHS validator anyway. Inspectors have got on in the past and have had an issue with that once before, but the driver just said he wasn't going to slow people down on their morning commute!

Annasopra

Victor wrote: »

There is a Dublin Bus multi-week ticket aimed at language students.

I heard they got rid of it and they have to use leap cards

Annasopra

Whats the flat fare for a child to use a leap card?

Mr Simpson

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

I heard they got rid of it and they have to use leap cards

I think Victor meant the new LEAP trainee card which is designed specifically for the foreign language schools

LXFlyer

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

Whats the flat fare for a child to use a leap card?

LEAP Child fares on Dublin Bus are €0.95 and €1.15, the latter being the fare deducted by the righthand validator.