"Leap" into the unknown: The feedback thread

Planemo

I have a student leap card – can I buy more than one 30 day ticket at a time?

LXFlyer

Planemo wrote: »

I have a student leap card – can I buy more than one 30 day ticket at a time?

Yes - you can hold up to five different tickets at once.


You don't have to wait for the first one to expire.

Victor

Planemo wrote: »

I have a student leap card – can I buy more than one 30 day ticket at a time?

Note that Student Travel Cards expire at the end of each calendar year (approximately 15 month validity). Any remaining balance is refunded.

Mrs OBumble

lxflyer wrote: »

Right so - do you really go around in life worrying about fractions of a cent?


If you do, I'd suggest you have a problem.

Ahh, speaking as an IT professional, worrying about fractions of cents is worthwhile - people have got rich because other people did not worry about such things.

But on a practical level, I someone on the Galway city forum reports that the Leap Cards adult fare is indeed E1.60 (which is just under 30% less than the cash fare).

It's odd that BÉ have not advertised this extensively. Possibly it's because they want to iron out implementation issues with the cards before getting a volume of people to use them. It does appear that there is an issue with driver training (or perhaps willingness to retain training messages - I have no evidence either way).

LXFlyer

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Ahh, speaking as an IT professional, worrying about fractions of cents is worthwhile - people have got rich because other people did not worry about such things.

But on a practical level, I someone on the Galway city forum reports that the Leap Cards adult fare is indeed E1.60 (which is just under 30% less than the cash fare).

It's odd that BÉ have not advertised this extensively. Possibly it's because they want to iron out implementation issues with the cards before getting a volume of people to use them. It does appear that there is an issue with driver training (or perhaps willingness to retain training messages - I have no evidence either way).

Well speaking as a finance professional, I understand the importance of fractions too in my professional capacity.

But I don't go around worrying about the difference between 1.596 and 1.60 on a day-to-day basis in my personal life. There are far bigger things to worry about in life I'd suggest.

The discount is 16% on the cash fare (or 15.789% for those who like to be particularly precise). I'm not sure where you're getting 30% from.

All of the LEAP launches to date have been soft. In other words without a great fanfare, for (I would imagine) precisely the reason you suggest - it allows for whatever issues arise to be eliminated without impacting on vast numbers of customers.

I'd imagine part of the reason they don't quote a fare in the promotional info but rather quote the percentage discount is that LEAP is valid on the Oranmore service which is a traditional staged fare service, and does not have a flat fare.

dfx-

Victor wrote: »

The idea is to get people to use cashiers and ticket machines less. If people could top-up by less than €5, they would essentially be doing the same thing as paying cash for tickets, but travelling at Leap Card prices.

If you want a Leap Card price, you have to follow their rules.

Isn't the idea not the lower price of the fare but to have people pre-pay? So what difference does it make if you pre-load 9 x 50c or 1 x €5 as long as you pre-pay and your fare is covered..

Victor

dfx- wrote: »

Isn't the idea not the lower price of the fare but to have people pre-pay? So what difference does it make if you pre-load 9 x 50c or 1 x €5 as long as you pre-pay and your fare is covered..

They've picked a level.

dfx-

An arbitrary, unnecessary level for a single fare. Might help explain empty Leap cards in circulation.

Why load a minimum of €5 on a card when you can save yourself the bother by just paying less in cash, even €3.05 and keep the other €1.95 in your back pocket than gathering dust on a card.

Dravokivich

While I can understand someone may not have the money to topup for a number of journeys in advance. It'd be completely pointless to need to top it up before each time you use it.

LXFlyer

dfx- wrote: »

An arbitrary, unnecessary level for a single fare. Might help explain empty Leap cards in circulation.

Why load a minimum of €5 on a card when you can save yourself the bother by just paying less in cash, even €3.05 and keep the other €1.95 in your back pocket than gathering dust on a card.

Your approach sort of defeats the whole purpose of the card - it's supposed to reduce cash transactions.


Why would anyone want to pay for individual trips one at a time on the card?

L1011

Considering TVMs aren't emptied after every transaction and the cash handling costs are on the whole rather than individual transactions; there's no need for a minimum TVM amount.

Having a minimum for Payzone is entirely a different story and its likely that it should be more than a fiver.

Carawaystick

lxflyer wrote: »

Your approach sort of defeats the whole purpose of the card - it's supposed to reduce cash transactions.

I remember way back in the day the rpa was planning an Integrated Ticketing system

reducing cash transactions wasn't one of the aims quoted here

lxflyer wrote: »

Why would anyone want to pay for individual trips one at a time on the card?

Because that's all they have.

dfx-

If you have €2.50 in change to hand and want the 2.35 or 1.95 DB fare, you are forced to pay by cash on the bus. Isn't forcing people to pay by cash in any instance defeating the purpose? You could also make a return journey for 2.35 in cash for less than you have to top up by in the first place.

For example the high footfall return journey from Emmet Rd to Thomas St and Dame St can be done for less by cash than the top up would cost.

The minimum top up should be the minimum Leap fare.

LXFlyer

Carawaystick wrote: »

I remember way back in the day the rpa was planning an Integrated Ticketing system

reducing cash transactions wasn't one of the aims quoted here

I'm not sure how else you can read the meaning of:

Minimises need for cash

or

Minimises need for cash and cash management

None of these cards are meant to be topped up before you do every single individual journey - why bother getting one if that's what you're going to do.
You might as well keep paying the driver.

LXFlyer

dfx- wrote: »

If you have €2.50 in change to hand and want the 2.35 or 1.95 DB fare, you are forced to pay by cash on the bus. Isn't forcing people to pay by cash in any instance defeating the purpose? You could also make a return journey for 2.35 in cash for less than you have to top up by in the first place.

For example the high footfall return journey from Emmet Rd to Thomas St and Dame St can be done for less by cash than the top up would cost.

The minimum top up should be the minimum Leap fare.

But the topup isn't "costing" you anything - it's there to be used whenever you next need it.

If people are that short of cash then really LEAP isn't designed for them - they should just continue paying the driver.

L1011

lxflyer wrote: »

If people are that short of cash then really LEAP isn't designed for them - they should just continue paying the driver.

Denying them the ability to save some of the cash they *do* have.

There isn't a technical or other reason that TVMs can't take pretty much any amount of accepted coinage.

Dravokivich

dfx- wrote: »

If you have €2.50 in change to hand and want the 2.35 or 1.95 DB fare, you are forced to pay by cash on the bus. Isn't forcing people to pay by cash in any instance defeating the purpose? You could also make a return journey for 2.35 in cash for less than you have to top up by in the first place.

For example the high footfall return journey from Emmet Rd to Thomas St and Dame St can be done for less by cash than the top up would cost.

The minimum top up should be the minimum Leap fare.

55 cent?

eh... i don't know... this seems to be a bit of a crazy thing to argue over. What about other services you may use which require pre-paid credit, such as phones. they are incremental in multiples of 5's too. The only reason Leap did it like that, is due to how it's a common denomination here for credit purchasing.

My only issue with credit usage/fares is that the fare capping is far higher than it needs to be and it's either with 1 service or all of them. No caps available for just 2 providers is nuts.

Avada

Straylight wrote: »

Thanks lxflyer. I have an annual train ticket on my card and apart from the train I only use it very occasionally for the odd LUAS or bus journey, so I'd rather not bother with the auto top up and leave money sitting on the card for ages. It seems incredible that they require people to go to a physical agent to load the card after paying for the credit, and that the top-up isn't instant. The whole point of wanting to top it up online was because it wasn't convenient for me to go to an agent at the time so I ended up just paying cash on the bus in the end. While the cards are great and very convenient, this really sounds like something they should address.

They are addressing it to an extent. Apparently the NTA have signed an agreement with a developer to develop an app where you can check your balance and topup using NFC on your phone.

conor.hogan.2

The leap card website should be used as an example by people who think the software industry should be regulated. It is the worst site I have ever seen or used.

n97 mini

It's one of those websites that is glaringly obvious it hasn't been designed by a UX designer. Usually programmer-designed sites stand out as being truly woeful, but I'd say that one was designed by a committee feeding into a project manager.

conor.hogan.2

n97 mini wrote: »

Usually programmer-designed sites stand out as being truly woeful, but I'd say that one was designed by a committee feeding into a project manager.

Usually, but needing a refresh for every drop down change when buying a ticket is just ridiculous.

LXFlyer

Where do you start with the website.

It is far too complex, is out of date in listing operators and there are several pages which seem to repeat themselves.

It needs a comprehensive cleanup.

In the meantime, you can click here for an independent simple guide to LEAP functionality!

AlekSmart

n97 mini wrote: »

It's one of those websites that is glaringly obvious it hasn't been designed by a UX designer. Usually programmer-designed sites stand out as being truly woeful, but I'd say that one was designed by a committee feeding into a project manager.

Not so fast....!

I think you're ignoring an "Assistant" project manager there....;)

Aard

I just tried logging into the leapcard website there to see what the story was. First hurdle - password! I had to reset my password and of course it was one of those sites that make you include a cariety of capitals and numerals, because that's so much safer than simply a long string. Checking my balance wasn't too difficult, but ideally once you log in your balance should ve displayed in the sidebar or something. Same for any travel passes loaded on the card.

Victor

MYOB wrote: »

Considering TVMs aren't emptied after every transaction and the cash handling costs are on the whole rather than individual transactions; there's no need for a minimum TVM amount.

You realise that all those 10 cent coins need to be counted?

Dravokivich wrote: »

My only issue with credit usage/fares is that the fare capping is far higher than it needs to be

Not quite. There is a big problem insofar as you can go from Balbriggan to Kilcoole (Cash Single €5.70, Leap Single €4.50, Day Return €10.50) and back as many times as you want on that cap. If the area was more modest, the cap could be brought down.

Avada

Aard wrote: »

I just tried logging into the leapcard website there to see what the story was. First hurdle - password! I had to reset my password and of course it was one of those sites that make you include a cariety of capitals and numerals, because that's so much safer than simply a long string. Checking my balance wasn't too difficult, but ideally once you log in your balance should ve displayed in the sidebar or something. Same for any travel passes loaded on the card.

Also, for some stupid reason, if you lock yourself out of the website, you have to ring them to unlock it. Thats madness

Dravokivich

Victor wrote: »

You realise that all those 10 cent coins need to be counted?

Not quite. There is a big problem insofar as you can go from Balbriggan to Kilcoole (Cash Single €5.70, Leap Single €4.50, Day Return €10.50) and back as many times as you want on that cap. If the area was more modest, the cap could be brought down.

The extremes don't really justify what would be considered normality. How many people are really going to go from Balbriggan to Killcoole and back all day to make use of Irish Rail's 10 euro cap?

L1011

Victor wrote: »

You realise that all those 10 cent coins need to be counted?

The poor coin sorter machine, so overworked.

LXFlyer

Dravokivich wrote: »

55 cent?

eh... i don't know... this seems to be a bit of a crazy thing to argue over. What about other services you may use which require pre-paid credit, such as phones. they are incremental in multiples of 5's too. The only reason Leap did it like that, is due to how it's a common denomination here for credit purchasing.

My only issue with credit usage/fares is that the fare capping is far higher than it needs to be and it's either with 1 service or all of them. No caps available for just 2 providers is nuts.

Dravokivich wrote: »

The extremes don't really justify what would be considered normality. How many people are really going to go from Balbriggan to Killcoole and back all day to make use of Irish Rail's 10 euro cap?

I think we have to bear in mind what a cap is - it's the price at which you are offering unlimited travel.


Dublin Bus cap is €6.90. That's the equivalent of a return €2.50 trip and a single €1.95 trip. I don't think that's particularly unreasonable.


Irish Rail's cap is €9.20 which equates to a return trip from Balbriggan to the city centre plus any other single trip. It's the equivalent of a return trip from Howth or Malahide to the city and a return trip to Dun Laoghaire on top of that. Perhaps it could be less, but that could lead to anomalies given the pricing from the outer stations in the Short Hop Zone.


The LUAS cap is €6.20, which would equate to 1.5 return 3 zone trips (roughly halfway along either line), again probably not particularly excessive. This cap is probably one that wouldn't really be reached very often as most people would only use LUAS for one return trip.


With the combined cap, you do face a dilemma. Do you set just one cap or several. The more caps there are, the more confusing for customers it gets - that's why they've been simplifying the prepaid ticket range.


In the absence of an overall zonal fare structure it's very difficult to implement multi-level capping.


In the circumstances I wonder if €10 is really that high, given that the Irish Rail cap is only €0.80 less? It equates to a return trip from Malahide to the City on Irish Rail, plus 1.5 return trips at €1.95 on the bus.


I'll put your question another way - what would you consider a fare price for unlimited travel across Dublin?

bk

lxflyer you are correct, but I think it is a reflection of how few people take all three modes of transport every day.

Far more realistic would be people taking two modes, e.g. DB + Luas or DB + Dart. This is by far a more realistic multi-mode of transport, but Leap totally ignores it.

This is why I think a much fairer and more transparent way to charge for Public Transport is the Amsterdam style, tag-on/tag-off per km charging across all public transport.