"Leap" into the unknown: The feedback thread

AngryLips

Does anyone know if they plan to extend leap card as a method of payment to other regional town services such as Drogheda/Dundalk? It seems to me like we've pretty much hit the end state for the Leap Card project.

bk

AngryLips wrote: »

Does anyone know if they plan to extend leap card as a method of payment to other regional town services such as Drogheda/Dundalk? It seems to me like we've pretty much hit the end state for the Leap Card project.

There is still WAY more to go with Leapcard!

- Introducing support for contactless cards and apple and android pay are the big ones to come IMO.

- Moving DB to completely cashless, with either tag-on/tag-off or flat fare

And as you say, the expectation is to extend it to the whole country.

AngryLips

bk wrote: »

- Introducing support for contactless cards and apple and android pay are the big ones to come IMO.

Unless there is widespread user adoption, then this would be a big waste of money just at the moment.

LXFlyer

AngryLips wrote: »

Does anyone know if they plan to extend leap card as a method of payment to other regional town services such as Drogheda/Dundalk? It seems to me like we've pretty much hit the end state for the Leap Card project.

LEAP is already valid on Bus Eireann PSO town services in Dundalk and Drogheda, as well as Balbriggan and Navan.

It is due to be rolled out in Sligo and Athlone town services in 2017 when the additional equipment is acquired to do so.

AngryLips

lxflyer wrote: »

LEAP is already valid on Bus Eireann PSO town services in Dundalk and Drogheda, as well as Balbriggan and Navan.

How come its not listed on the Leap website? When I asked the bus driver in Dundalk he didn't know, and since the bus in use was clearly meant for Cork services judging from the livery, it made me doubt that it was possible to use Leap in Dundalk. Are there discounts over regular fares?

LXFlyer

AngryLips wrote: »

How come its not listed on the Leap website? When I asked the bus driver in Dundalk he didn't know, and since the bus in use was clearly meant for Cork services judging from the livery, it made me doubt that it was possible to use Leap in Dundalk. Are there discounts over regular fares?

That I can't tell you but it is listed on the Bus Eireann website and has been for some time.

http://buseireann.ie/inner.php?id=234

They are part of the Greater Dublin area services.

Yes standard LEAP discounts of 27% for Bus Eireann town and city services apply over cash fares.

As for the bus, it would have been transferred up from Cork and just not repainted yet.

markpb

bk wrote: »

Introducing support for contactless cards and apple and android pay are the big ones to come IMO.

AngryLips wrote: »

Unless there is widespread user adoption, then this would be a big waste of money just at the moment.

I'd say that contactless payments have widespread adoption already:

The company (Visa) said more than three million contactless payments are being made every week through its debit cards, up from 1.3 million a week in March 2016.
On average, five contactless transactions are being made with Visa debit cards every second in Ireland currently.

IrishTimes

54% of debit and credit card owners use contactless payment when paying for goods and services, according to survey research published by BOI Payment Acceptance today. 57% use contactless payments at least once a week with 45% of users using contactless a few times a week or more.

Bank of Ireland payments

bk

AngryLips wrote: »

Unless there is widespread user adoption, then this would be a big waste of money just at the moment.

Huh?! Pretty much every person in the country with a bank account has a contactless debit card by now.

Visa alone has issued 3 million contactless cards in Ireland and that doesn't include Mastercard. There are probably more contactless cards in Ireland at this stage then people!

https://www.visa.ie/pay-with-visa/contactless-payments

Apple and Android Pay simply piggy bank on this same technology.

Contactless card support is absolutely necessary to go cashless on buses, like they have done in London Bus.

EDIT: Beaten to it by markpb

AlekSmart

bk wrote: »

Huh?! Pretty much every person in the country with a bank account has a contactless debit card by now.

Visa alone has issued 3 million contactless cards in Ireland and that doesn't include Mastercard. There are probably more contactless cards in Ireland at this stage then people!

https://www.visa.ie/pay-with-visa/contactless-payments

Apple and Android Pay simply piggy bank on this same technology.

Contactless card support is absolutely necessary to go cashless on buses, like they have done in London Bus.

EDIT: Beaten to it by markpb

The oft unasked question,however,is what attitude the Retail banks are going to take in regard to pricing for "this "support" of cashless payments ?

Currently,we are enjoying the generosity of the Banking Sector,as they provide their customers with various forms of "Free" transactions or charging "holidays" as they watch the development of this sector.

I believe the further roll-out of cashless,needs to be accompanied by a strong Regulatory Input which imposes very clear and very low,limits on the charges for this "service",which of itself,provides for far greater efficiencies within the Banking sector,leading to profit opportunities.

As it stands,I am most reluctant to provide the Irish Banking Sector,with ANY more influence over my daily financial affairs than is absolutely necessary.

bk

Good point their Alex. I agree that the government should be regulating the pricing of contactless payments and frankly they should be free.

However just to point out that Leap cards will continue to exist. Contactless would just be an additional option, do likely the preferred option for non monthly/annual ticket users.

AngryLips

Contactless credit and debit card payments may be the same as thing as Apple Pay or Android Pay from a technological POV but from an end-user POV it is not, it is totally unproven what consumer appetites are to pay using these means.

devnull

Personally I object to all bank charges having lived in the UK in the past where pretty much all banking was free if you had a positive balance.

When I came back to Ireland it was really noticeable how we pay through our nose for everything we do with our bank, from debit card and ATM transaction fees to account maintenance fees, what was especially depressing was that despite all of these charges the opening hours were much shorter, the queues much longer and the branches much less pleasant places to be compared to the UK.

The fact that it took a UK Bank (which ultimately failed in the end) to force the others to start rolling out VISA Debit cards rather than the crippled laser cards, many many years after the majority of the other EU countries rolled out Visa card, says a lot about the Irish Bank's attitude to customers.

However what I will say is that in the last few years they have started catching up with widespread roll-out of contactless, Android Pay, Visa Debit, wider opening hours and more modern branches and better use of technology and ways for some people to avoid charges, however I still object to the charging regime being there, as it's hard for the low paid to avoid them because of the minimum balance/income requirements.

I can't imagine the banks would be too happy to reduce contactless payments to zero full time though as the amount of revenue that they would lose would probably be too large for them to agree with, but really bank charges for those in credit with standard accounts shouldn't exist at all.

But in a public transport context, if banks are going to levy card transaction fees for public transport use of contactless cards, that is a real disincentive to use them versus standard LEAP.

markpb

AngryLips wrote: »

Contactless credit and debit card payments may be the same as thing as Apple Pay or Android Pay from a technological POV but from an end-user POV it is not, it is totally unproven what consumer appetites are to pay using these means.

8% of all contactless payments made on TfL which isn't bad going for a relatively new technology. FWIW I found my debit card easier to use on the tube than my phone but, since there's no additional work required to support both, it's not an either-or decision.

devnull wrote: »

But in a public transport context, if banks are going to levy card transaction fees for public transport use of contactless cards, that is a real disincentive to use them versus standard LEAP.

TfL batch up the card transactions and submit them periodically so you won't be paying a bank charge each time you use public transport, only when the payment request is submitted. This could be broadly similar to a charge levied when you use your debit card to top-up your Leapcard today, depending on how often the payment is requested.

devnull wrote: »

I can't imagine the banks would be too happy to reduce contactless payments to zero full time though as the amount of revenue that they would lose would probably be too large for them to agree with, but really bank charges for those in credit with standard accounts shouldn't exist at all.

It's worth bearing in mind that the NTA will pay MSC to the card issuers so they're still making money even if the don't charge the customers for contactless transactions.

bk

AngryLips wrote: »

Contactless credit and debit card payments may be the same as thing as Apple Pay or Android Pay from a technological POV but from an end-user POV it is not, it is totally unproven what consumer appetites are to pay using these means.

It is the technical point that matters.

When they implement contactless cards, which are widely used, they will also get Apple and Android Pay for free. It won't cost anything extra to implement, which is what you claimed inaccurately in your comment.

devnull wrote: »

However what I will say is that in the last few years they have started catching up with widespread roll-out of contactless, Android Pay, Visa Debit, wider opening hours and more modern branches and better use of technology and ways for some people to avoid charges, however I still object to the charging regime being there, as it's hard for the low paid to avoid them because of the minimum balance/income requirements.

Just to point out, you can get a free account, with free banking from EBS. It doesn't have any minimum balance requirements, etc. They don't have the other nice features like online banking, etc. but at least it is an option for low paid.

I think this account exists due to EU rules requiring that at least one, basic, free banking current account exists for people.

And then there is Revolut which is excellent.

devnull

bk wrote: »

Just to point out, you can get a free account, with free banking from EBS. It doesn't have any minimum balance requirements, etc. They don't have the other nice features like online banking, etc. but at least it is an option for low paid.

I think this account exists due to EU rules requiring that at least one, basic, free banking current account exists for people

But in my view standard accounts should be free, not just basic accounts like EBS offer. All of the standard bank accounts in the UK are free with no conditions on them, whilst the UK accounts also offer scaled down basic accounts which are also free, but lack overdraft and contactless for people with CCJ's and bad credit history.

AngryLips

bk wrote: »

It is the technical point that matters.

When they implement contactless cards, which are widely used, they will also get Apple and Android Pay for free. It won't cost anything extra to implement, which is what you claimed inaccurately in your comment.

Even if the costs are marketing, it's not a proven tech, why would you bother? And, in the case of Apple at least, there is a transaction cost associated with each interaction.

markpb

AngryLips wrote: »

Even if the costs are marketing, it's not a proven tech, why would you bother? And, in the case of Apple at least, there is a transaction cost associated with each interaction.

It'll be years before we see a full scale roll-out of contatless technology on public transport here so we'll know long before then if Apple and Android payments have taken off.

And no, there's no additional charge for merchants accepting Apple Pay, that's taken by the issuing banks out of the existing MSC.

Victor

devnull wrote: »

But in my view standard accounts should be free, not just basic accounts like EBS offer. All of the standard bank accounts in the UK are free with no conditions on them

But aren't there steep ATM charges in the UK? Or is that only if you use a different bank?

Free at point of use does not mean free. There is a cost somewhere. The problem in Ireland during the boom was that accounts were used as a loss leader for 'more valuable business' - mortgages - and we know where that ended up.

My local Spar is charge about 1c for a contactless debit card transaction, but gouged for a credit card transaction.

devnull

Victor wrote: »

But aren't there steep ATM charges in the UK? Or is that only if you use a different bank?

All of the banks standard current accounts allow you to use your card in any ATM without any charge, always been that way as far as I know, there is no charge at all by your bank for using any ATM in the UK.

However if you use an ATM that is operated by a commercial ATM provider you might be charged a transaction fee by the provider itself who will add it onto the amount that they charge your bank, but these ATM's are in the small minority.

however, which can be found in some airports, pubs and the suchlike you might be charged, but these are levies by the ATM provider and would probably account

Free at point of use does not mean free. There is a cost somewhere. The problem in Ireland during the boom was that accounts were used as a loss leader for 'more valuable business' - mortgages - and we know where that ended up.

UK Bank accounts tend to be pretty much free as long as you are in credit.

I looked at my Barclays standard current account that is still active for when I'm in the UK with my Irish address attached and the only things I need to pay for are:

- Same day transfer to another (Non Barclays) Bank
- Bankers Draft
- Stopping a Cheque
- Paper Statements
- Replacement Card Reader

My local Spar is charge about 1c for a contactless debit card transaction, but gouged for a credit card transaction.

This exists in the UK, mostly in small corner shops and newsagents, but is nowhere near as widespread in the convenience sector as it is in Ireland, but then again most convenience stores are operated by large group stores such as Tesco Express, Sainsbury's Local, Co-Op etc.