Hear/Dare Schemes... How are they fair?

xclw

I'm repeating this year because I didn't get enough points for the course i really wanted to do.
But how is it fair that because someone's parents are unemployed/ divorced or something else like that they are able to get college courses for less points than me?

I got 440 points and wanted to do primary teaching, a girl in my year got the course with 415 points because her parents were unemployed. ( her dad had his job until february of 6th year though and her mother never had a job in the first place) She got the exact same education as me because we were in most of the same classes.

how are these things fair for people who get higher points?

LoonyLovegood

I'm applying for DARE, for one simple reason. I miss a LOT of classes, because of regular doctors appointments. I'm not sure how HEAR works, but for DARE, it's quite simple. If a student has the brains, and the knowledge, and can do the course, but due to their medical needs will miss a lot of class, then they get help. It's all subjective, depending on how many applicants get it, how many have applied through DARE and so on.

I need it. I miss an average of four classes a week, sometimes more. I do my best to catch up, but sometimes it's not enough. If I get it, I know I've a chance of actually being able to do something with my life, as opposed to being stuck doing nothing if I don't get it.

xclw

yeah but many schools have non-exam classes like pe and religion so what if people only miss them classes and not others especially if it's appointments that can be scheduled...

LoonyLovegood

I don't do pe and religion. I only have my exam subjects, I sorted it like that for a reason, so I could miss as few classes as possible. I miss last two classes on a Monday (Irish and Biology), and then the first Friday, and either the last on Wednesday or the last on Friday. It's not just physical illnesses, but there's mental as well. I've had a horrific battle with mental illness, as well as two chronic. I've cut down my appointments compared to last year, but I've still got loads. It's just not an option to miss them all, or I mightn't even be here in June.

If we take your logic, should people suffering from a life threatening illness, such as cancer or a heart problem, who could die without regular monitoring, have to deal with trying to catch up with as much as possible outside of school, and be expected to perform as well as everyone else? Unfortunately, that's impossible.

Also, a lot of doctors will give you a regular appointment. I've one every Monday at half two, for example.

Bbbbolger

The OP's grievance seems to be more with the HEAR scheme than anything. Sometimes I think its a bit unfair too. I saw people getting courses ahead of me due to HEAR and now I'm back repeating having done better than them. I do think that allowances should be made for those suffering with economic disadvantages etc. Unfortunately I can't think of any better way of doing it. We're stuck with HEAR until a better alternative comes around.

not_so_civil

Just going to point this out, people on HEAR aren't taking the place of other people who apply via the normal route. There are a small number of places on each course set aside for people on the HEAR/DARE schemes same as each course has a few places set aside for matures. HEAR applicants are only competeing against other HEAR people for maybe 2 or 3 places

flyaway.

I qualified for HEAR... but got in on my own points. Not everyone who's on HEAR gets reduced points and they still need to get all the requirements. Lots of people just use HEAR for the other help the scheme gives.

The fact of the matter is that someone who comes from a dirt poor family, with no family who went past junior or leaving cert, possibly no support for their education at home, no money for extra grants if they're struggling, might have alcoholic or depressed parents, and living in an area where very few people even attend secondary school regularly, is less likely to further their education than someone with all the advantages in the world.

As for the DARE scheme, isn't it obvious? People will illnesses miss a whole lot of school. They deserve a bit of help.

Chuchoter

I think the DARE scheme is very fair. There's a girl in my year who is highly intelligent, hard working and appreciates her subjects but her back is really bad because she's slipped a load of disks. She comes in even though her doctors say she probably shouldn't. I think she deserves to get into her course because she has fought so hard to get in.

HEAR on the other hand I think is a symptom of a bad system. It effectively provides for people who can't go to private schools and pay for grinds. On the one hand that's fine, on the other hand we have an education system that if you just go sit down and learn it, you'll do fairly well. Its all rote learning, so I'm wondering if these people were really capable, why don't they just sit down and do the work, but I guess thats me speaking from a position of privelage.

laoch na mona

i am applying for HEAR and its the extra money and the free books and grinds that will be more useful
I assume the points thing is because were poor and cant afford grinds and such

Canard

I totally agree. It seems people with dyslexia can apply for DARE? Yeah its a disability but if you're dyslexic you're dyslexic...I mean there's a reason you dont achieve the points for the course you're trying to do. I dont mean that in a bad way at all, I dont really know how to put it.

HEAR is a little more understandable with the money for disadvantaged areas imo. But extra points? Bit far in my opinion.

Like I dont know - if someone cant attend school for some reason, why will they be able to attend college? If they can catch up on the college work they miss, why not the school work? I'm not trying to belittle people's problems but I mean, I could probably get the DARE points if I tried but I'd rather get it on my own points and work tbh.

leaveiton

Patchy~ wrote: »

.
Like I dont know - if someone cant attend school for some reason, why will they be able to attend college? If they can catch up on the college work they miss, why not the school work? I'm not trying to belittle people's problems but I mean, I could probably get the DARE points if I tried but I'd rather get it on my own points and work tbh.

To be fair, though, the DARE scheme (and the HEAR scheme) is not just about getting reduced points. If anything, I'd say that's a fairly small factor, and that it's moreso about the extra support you receive once you're actually in college. I'm hoping to be eligible for the HEAR scheme this year, because I could do with that additional support. Not because I'm too lazy to get the points, or anything like that. I won't even know if I'm eligible until "late June", according to the information in the HEAR booklet - which I'm presuming will be after the Leaving Cert. I'm still planning to work hard and get the points that I need, as I know I'm perfectly capable of it.

randylonghorn

HEAR isn't always 100% "fair" ... what is?! But it's an attempt to redress an inherent unfairness / inequity in the system, and while it's an imperfect one, the overall result is generally at least nearer to an overall "fair" balance than would be achievable without it.

Let's look at the two extremes in Irish second-level education. On the one hand you have the youngsters who grow up in well-off homes, with probably both parents graduates. They went to a "good" primary school, they were shuttled around after school in the SUVs to extra-curricular activities: drama, music, dance, sports, etc., etc. They go on to a private (i.e. fee-paying) school like Clongowes Wood or Belvedere or Blackrock. They get grinds in the evening or on Saturdays in any subject in which they feel the need of extra help. Or perhaps they go to (or repeat in) somewhere like the IoE.

They have every advantage, in other words. Sure, they still have to work; their private tutors can't do the exams for them. But they grow up in a home where progression to third-level is seen as the norm; they go to schools where it is seen as the norm; they live in communities where it is seen as the norm ... and they get every possible help to achieve that norm.

On the other extreme, you have the youngsters who live in areas where far from being the norm, progression to third level is often seen as an aberration. I remember chatting to a couple of lads from Finglas some years ago when I was a youth worker; they were maybe 18 / 19 and were involved as voluntary youth leaders. Both were extremely bright and during the conversation it was obvious that both had a hankering to go on to third level. However, when I asked them they explained that it wasn't encouraged by their families and simply wasn't acceptable at all to their peer group. "Jaysus, no! Sure anyone who suggests going to college is immediately labeled a f*g**t or a bender, and told 'the only reason you'd want to go to that place is if you were looking for someone to give it to you up the ...' " Well, let's leave it there, you get the picture! My apologies for being crude, but I'm quoting verbatim to illustrate a point.

I suspect that attitude may have broken down a bit over the last few years, but it's still around to an extent. Not exactly encouraging to a young lad of 15 / 16 facing into his LC, is it? Apparently it was slightly more acceptable for girls, though even then it was presumed that they had what my grandmother might have termed "ideas above their station". And there are lots of areas around the country where that attitude / culture is prevalent; mostly they are areas of cities and big towns, but it's not unknown even in certain rural areas.

Now add to that backdrop the fact that the local school may have very few students interested in third level, and may in fact be struggling to maintain discipline and to ensure that all their students walk out the door with at least a reasonable level of education.

There is no money at home for grinds; there is possibly little support from parents; and if they do beat the odds and get to college, there is no financial back-up from home to support them there: they are entirely dependent on what state support there is and on what they might be able to earn in a part-time job (if they can get one).

As I said, these are the two extremes, and most people fall somewhere in the middle.

But our Constitution (rightly) promises to "cherish all the children of the state equally". Is it not incumbent on the State therefore to attempt to redress the balance, and to offer extra supports and incentives to those who traditionally simply did not go on to college, or who did so in very small numbers? (If you want to see the figures for participation in HE over the years, Patrick Clancy in UCD has been tracking this for a couple of decades, and has plenty published on the subject).

HEAR is a blunt instrument, and it's by no means perfect, but it is at least an attempt to do something.

Any scheme like HEAR, no matter how devised, will always be imperfect in fact.

Ideally, the extra resources should be applied all the way from pre-school and primary upwards through second-level, so that by the time people reach LC they are well capable of competing on an equal footing with everyone else in the country for points, and there would be no need to have special entry points for HEAR candidates (whatever about extra financial supports to make it possible for them to actually participate and complete their course). And it's usually the points system that irritates people, rather than the financial supports, for reasons I can easily understand. But the resources simply aren't there for that ... hell, they weren't there during the boom, let alone now!

So, yes, it's a blunt instrument, and it's not 100% fair ... but it's an attempt to redress the balance, and it has some success in doing so. There is at least some hope in the present system that a bright young person with all the odds against them will still make it to third level.

randylonghorn

Patchy~ wrote: »

I totally agree. It seems people with dyslexia can apply for DARE? Yeah its a disability but if you're dyslexic you're dyslexic...I mean there's a reason you dont achieve the points for the course you're trying to do.

Dyslexia is totally separate from intelligence, though. I have encountered at least one university lecturer in the UK with pretty severe dyslexia. Wonderfully intelligent woman, and a great lecturer / teacher. Gives all her lectures without a single note in front of her; they're fairly useless to her, anyway.

The problem is that our assessment system is very narrowly focused in terms of the assessment methodology: you read reams in preparation, and you write reams in exams. To a great extent, how fast you can write and regurgitate information is a major factor in how you will do: whereas ideally it should be 100% about your knowledge and understanding.

Admittedly, technology is beginning to have some impact on this, and I suspect it will have a far greater impact in the future.

Canard

randylonghorn wrote: »

Dyslexia is totally separate from intelligence, though. I have encountered at least one university lecturer in the UK with pretty severe dyslexia. Wonderfully intelligent woman, and a great lecturer / teacher. Gives all her lectures without a single note in front of her; they're fairly useless to her, anyway.

The problem is that our assessment system is very narrowly focused in terms of the assessment methodology: you read reams in preparation, and you write reams in exams. To a great extent, how fast you can write and regurgitate information is a major factor in how you will do: whereas ideally it should be 100% about your knowledge and understanding.

Admittedly, technology is beginning to have some impact on this, and I suspect it will have a far greater impact in the future.

Oh of course, I know a few dyslexic people who are very smart. I just meant something like if a dyslexic person didnt get the points for an English course then got in on DARE, it's a bit silly I think. I definitely agree on the exam flaws though. A huge advantage and improvement would be to remove the time limit or at least extend it because in English P1, for example, we're expected to come up with and write a short story or personal essay in just over an hour on topics that probably dont exactly warrant a good story or promote creativity.

I agree with you too, leaveiton, the extra support is brilliant and really good to see I just think sometimes the points could be better used - a guy I know was basically too lazy to study because he didnt like that he was "being put through a system" and got the DARE points on the basis of depression. We all have to do the LC to go to college, boohoo. :rolleyes:

LoonyLovegood

DARE for depression is the hardest thing to get it for though. You have to go through a psychiatrist and psychologist. Even then, it's so bloody subjective that you mightn't get it!

laoch na mona

you can get DARE if you have no sense of smell
I had surgery on my eye and I can't get it

spurious

Depression is a hideous disease.
Let's not make this thread into 'I have more problems than you'.

AdamD

What's with the massive assumption going here that if you're not on these schemes you can afford to get grinds?

randylonghorn

I'd didn't make that assumption, certainly. I said that "most people fall somewhere in the middle" between the two extremes I outlined.

laoch na mona

AdamD wrote: »

What's with the massive assumption going here that if you're not on these schemes you can afford to get grinds?

HEAR=poor
grinds=expensive

darryl2010

your a load of snobs

Canard

What about their load of snobs?

biohaiid

Seriously? Your actually asking this?

Human rights like. Education.
If there wasn't programmes like this there would be a huge social divide, can you imagine the effect that would have?
It doesn't affect people not on the scheme whatsoever. You are open to compete for the standard amount of places.
And so are HEAR applicants, but there are also a small amount of places (emphasis on the small) for us too. And rightly so.
JUST because someones parents are unemployed? JUST becasue someones parents are divorced?
Please.
Thats one, the effect those things can have on someone and in turn their EDUCATION is far more profound.

mcpaddington

The thing I can't stand is people abusing the HEAR scheme. I know a guy for instance who's dad fixes machinery, he gets plenty of money in envelopes if you know what I mean, but seeing as he doesn't officially work also has a medical card etc and most likely collects the dole. He applied and probably got accepted to HEAR.

reznov

mcpaddington wrote: »

The thing I can't stand is people abusing the HEAR scheme. I know a guy for instance who's dad fixes machinery, he gets plenty of money in envelopes if you know what I mean, but seeing as he doesn't officially work also has a medical card etc and most likely collects the dole. He applied and probably got accepted to HEAR.

Fair play to him. Why not maximise benefits after all?

AVA_Steve

Hi, I lurk around the boards don't post that often but I had to this time. I find it really disgusting and pathetic whats going on in this thread. Especially the OP, "Why should someone get in with less points because their parents are unemployed, or they haven't as much money etc etc. There is a couple of simple explanations for that, I'm speaking from personal experience here, I applied to HEAR because both my parents are unemployed, my mother is a Dialysis patient waiting to get on the transplant list and has very little money and my father was a mechanic until the recession kicked in and it has really hit him hard.

Now because of these things I've had a rough experience in Secondary school, I've been bullied because my parents are split up and because of the type of person I am I'm labelled a goth or because of my long hair I'm labelled a "f*gg*t" now I don't let these things get to me, but as anyone who's been a victim of bullying knows, being under that kind of I hate to use such a powerful word but "torture" day in day out, makes it so hard to study especially with the pressure I already face at home to do well so that I can make a real future for myself. I need the HEAR program so that I can actually go to College, I didn't have the luxury of spending every evening studying for my leaving cert, hell I was barely able to get the time off work to study in the weeks leading up to it. And to come on here and have some random guy mouthing off because he feels hard done by just because he needs to get the required points for his course which you should aim for anyways really makes me feel angry. Now I still aim to achieve the full points required for my course, I'm not going to slack off because I may have 10% of the points of my course reduced, what the hell would that say about me as a person? How would I be doing myself or my parents proud then?

Some of the people in this thread make me sick, especially the ones complaining about the things which qualify or don't qualify for the DARE program, like dyslexia, what the hell? Dyslexia is debilitating, it decreases the possibility of getting considered for certain jobs even if the person is perfectly qualified. And to the guy saying how people without a sense of smell get it but he had an operation on his eye and he cant? Please forgive me and correct me if I'm wrong, but that was an operation which you recovered from, people who don't have a sense of smell or a disability like that can't recover from it. So seriously take a reality check and realize the crap you've been posting. God.


/rant over

CookieMonster.x

I think HEAR and DARE are great schemes however I do think they (HEAR moreso) can be abused.
I know people who have medical cards, don't work etc but can afford all the luxuries in the world. These people get in on HEAR and get grants however the money is not used for college. Instead it's used to go out every weekend or some other non college related activity. One person bought a car with the money and another funded a trip to America with it. This is completely unfair.
Also in these posts people seem to either fall in the privately educated rich kids category or the poor kids category. What about the people in between? My parents have good jobs however they have to fund 3 kids in college soon to be 4. Like many others they struggle yet for some people money is handed to them on a plate for them to throw away.
I think these systems are great however I resent the fact that some people who receive this help squander this help. Don't get me wrong, I am all for people receiving help where help is needed but some people really just take advantage of help.

finality

Patchy~ wrote: »

Oh of course, I know a few dyslexic people who are very smart. I just meant something like if a dyslexic person didnt get the points for an English course then got in on DARE, it's a bit silly I think. I definitely agree on the exam flaws though. A huge advantage and improvement would be to remove the time limit or at least extend it because in English P1, for example, we're expected to come up with and write a short story or personal essay in just over an hour on topics that probably dont exactly warrant a good story or promote creativity.

I agree with you too, leaveiton, the extra support is brilliant and really good to see I just think sometimes the points could be better used - a guy I know was basically too lazy to study because he didnt like that he was "being put through a system" and got the DARE points on the basis of depression. We all have to do the LC to go to college, boohoo. :rolleyes:

I find it really offensive that people with depression are labelled "lazy". If you haven't suffered from depression in my opinion you just can't understand the overwhelming effect it has on your life. When it's a struggle just to get out of bed in the morning or you simply can't focus on schoolwork, studying isn't the easiest thing to do. Depression isn't just feeling "sad," when you're depressed you feel absolutely exhausted all the time and nothing seems interesting or worthwhile. Depression is one of the absolute best reasons to get into college on reduced points.

As for getting into an English course through HEAR because of dyslexia, I know someone who is dyslexic and has just completed an English course, he's done exceptionally well throughout and is reasonably confident of getting a 1.1. Dyslexia might have an effect on someone's results in school, particularly if it's not diagnosed until fifth or sixth year, but in college accommodations can be made for people with dyslexia, for instance in the case of the person I mentioned, his spelling doesn't cost him marks in exams. In English in college it's your thoughts and opinions on texts that are important, and someone with dyslexia is perfectly capable of analysing a text. If someone with dyslexia really struggled with English or didn't have the potential to do well in it, they wouldn't apply to study English in the first place.

fizzyorange

I agree that HEAR can be abused...but people saying being poor doesn't affect the points you will achieve because it's all just rote learning? Absolute crap. I have friends who are fairly wealthy, go to private schools etc and they have EVERYTHING done for them. Dinners made, clothes washed and ironed, even rooms cleaned! They have the best of everything and of course this will help them preform better in school than the average joe who eats sausages and chips every night for dinner, works part time, etc.

Myself, well I think I deserve all of the HEAR scheme benefits. I don't have parents and I live with my grandmother who is very ill. I am her primary carer but I don't get any money for it because I refuse to leave school. A lot of my time is taken up with looking after my nan, helping around the house, doing the shopping, etc. Obviously this allows for less time with school, but it can't be helped. So why should I not get into my college course with a 10% point reduction?

reznov

Everything can be abused - legislation, schemes, financial benefits. Nothing is without it's glitches and loopholes, but it does IN NO WAY imply that the HEAR or DARE scheme is unfair. Anyone that is disabled either mentally or physically should definitely avail of some sort of educational aid. The points race seems to have robbed students of any moral decency.


Education should be available to everyone so they can reach self actualisation.
Sorry if that somehow infringes on your beliefs..

reznov

fizzyorange wrote: »

I agree that HEAR can be abused...but people saying being poor doesn't affect the points you will achieve because it's all just rote learning? Absolute crap. I have friends who are fairly wealthy, go to private schools etc and they have EVERYTHING done for them. Dinners made, clothes washed and ironed, even rooms cleaned! They have the best of everything and of course this will help them preform better in school than the average joe who eats sausages and chips every night for dinner, works part time, etc.

Myself, well I think I deserve all of the HEAR scheme benefits. I don't have parents and I live with my grandmother who is very ill. I am her primary carer but I don't get any money for it because I refuse to leave school. A lot of my time is taken up with looking after my nan, helping around the house, doing the shopping, etc. Obviously this allows for less time with school, but it can't be helped. So why should I not get into my college course with a 10% point reduction?

An example of a person with a heart who should definitely benefit from such a scheme.