The North's 1st Minister calls for an end to school segragation.

Zombrex

The Quadratic Equation wrote: »

True secularism is not making a distinction between different beliefs. If non faith schools are entitled to funding then faith schools are as well too. Anything else is state atheism dressed up.

The problem with that is it is impossible to fund all schools equally unless you have an exact even spread of religions, which frankly never happens.

Or to put it another way if you have 200 Catholics and 6 CoI pupils you aren't going to build a school just for the 6 CoI pupils.

So what do you do. You could send the 6 CoI pupils to the Catholic school, but then they are receiving religion study in a denomination they don't agree with, and they are after all paying exactly the same tax as any of the Catholic parents. You could argue that the Catholics are in the majority and in a majority the minority just have to put up with it. The problem with that is there will be places where the Catholics are in the minority, and they don't want to put up with CoI schools teaching their kids either.

It is generally considered that no religious teaching in schools is better than the "wrong" religious teaching is schools, so the modern idea is that you send all the kids to a secular school that doesn't deal with religion at all, and leave religion as private matter. This is the system in America and it works much better than our system.

wolfsbane

Richard wrote: »

I was taught Irish history in Northern Ireland by someone from the Republic (who was a Catholic, I think). I never felt, (nor do I feel now) that her lessons were anything other than balanced.

Good to hear. But I wonder if Cromwell was given a fair hearing in most Catholic schools?

I attended State schools (1955-1968), and we only got British history. I don't remember Ireland being mentioned! At least that avoided an assessment of Irish Nationalism.


***********************************************************************
Ephesians 6:4 And you, fathers, do not provoke your children to wrath, but bring them up in the training and admonition of the Lord.

The Quadratic Equation

Zombrex wrote: »

The problem with that is it is impossible to fund all schools equally unless you have an exact even spread of religions, which frankly never happens.

Or to put it another way if you have 200 Catholics and 6 CoI pupils you aren't going to build a school just for the 6 CoI pupils.

You've picked a badly exaggerated example, because that has worked perfectly for over a century in Ireland with separate Catholic and Church of Ireland schools. We need more non denominational schools to cater for recent demands, not confiscation or forced legislative conversion of Catholic or Church of Ireland owned schools.

Propellerhead

The Quadratic Equation wrote: »

You've picked a badly exaggerated example, because that has worked perfectly for over a century in Ireland with separate Catholic and Church of Ireland schools. We need more non denominational schools to cater for recent demands, not confiscation or forced legislative conversion of Catholic or Church of Ireland owned schools.

So, when you have achieved, as you have stated elsewhere on this forum, your desired purge of those in the Irish Church who, in your opinion, are inadequate Catholics, how does that square with your desire to maintain the same number of Catholic school places?

Those sums don't add up.

Mike 1972

lmaopml wrote: »

not to be all historical, but in 'Ireland' there was a time that education didn't exist for Catholics except under a hedge. We fought for it. .

Given that there isint a single person alive with firsthand experience of what you describe how is it relevent ?

Nobody is suggesting excluding the children of Roman Catholics from the education system.

The Quadratic Equation wrote: »

because that has worked perfectly for over a century in Ireland with separate Catholic and Church of Ireland schools.

It may have worked perfectly if one was Catholic (although even thats debatable) but I doubt too many non-Catholics would agree.

Did "seperate but equal" segreation work perfectly in Alabama, South Africa etc ?

The Quadratic Equation

Propellerhead wrote: »

So, when you have achieved, as you have stated elsewhere on this forum, your desired purge of those in the Irish Church who, in your opinion, are inadequate Catholics, how does that square with your desire to maintain the same number of Catholic school places?

Those sums don't add up.

Judging by the mass attendance in my area, the sums will add up very well, and in other areas any surplus Catholic owned schools that Catholics no longer require, can be sold / traded to the state or another denomination / non denomination if they don't want to set up and build their own with the same funding that is available to everyone.

The Quadratic Equation

Mike 1972 wrote: »

It may have worked perfectly if one was Catholic (although even thats debatable) but I doubt too many non-Catholics would agree.

Then you're wrong, because it worked perfectly for my COI friends in my town, who attended the small COI owned school there, and it is still working that way today, except the small COI school has also been joined in recent years by a small Educate Together owned school for non Catholics/COI. Parents from all three schools often join together and attend each others fundraisers.

So for our town would your solution be for the state to confiscate all three schools, close them, and open one impersonal and bland one size fits all state school, where the kids just end up being carbon copies and a number ? You can trust your childs education to the state if you want, I for one won't.

Benny_Cake

There is a lot of talk about "ethos" whenever the subject of school patronage comes up.But outside of the RE component out of the day,how does that ethos manifest itself?Most statements by Catholic/COI/Methodist etc schools in relation to ethos seem to be statements about "the dignity of every individual" which any person of any religion or none at all could go along with.So is the only difference what gets taught in RE?

lmaopml

Mike 1972 wrote: »

Given that there isint a single person alive with firsthand experience of what you describe how is it relevent ?

Nobody is suggesting excluding the children of Roman Catholics from the education system.

Sorry Mike, I was in a hurry typing and was speaking about down South I guess as opposed to the situation up North when we are looking at our system down here to review it - totally off topic I was...

I have no problem with multi- denominational schools, in fact, I think they are a great idea. However, I have no problem either with a school with an ethos, so long as they teach the curriculum...I don't think a State run soley and strictly multi denominational style systemwould be a good idea down here.

Mike 1972

The Quadratic Equation wrote: »

Then you're wrong, because it worked perfectly for my COI friends in my town.

So what of towns with no CoI or ET school

Does it "work perfectly" there ?

The Quadratic Equation wrote: »

You can trust your childs education to the state if you want, I for one won't.

Youll still take their money though.

Benny_Cake

lmaopml wrote: »

I have no problem with multi- denominational schools, in fact, I think they are a great idea. However, I have no problem either with a school with an ethos, so long as they teach the curriculum...I don't think a State run soley and strictly multi denominational style systemwould be a good idea down here.

I could be wrong about this (don't have kids myself),but isn't the extent of the church's involvement in a Catholic school that the PP chairs the board of management,and that obviously Catholic religious instruction is provided within school hours. Aside from that,the state generally provides the building,pays the salaries and sets the curriculum.So if the PP was to step aside and be replaced by a parent or other community representative,and RE was provided after hours or in a Sunday School type situation,what would the difference be?

The Quadratic Equation

Mike 1972 wrote: »

So what of towns with no CoI or ET school

Does it "work perfectly" there ?

It does indeed, as soon as they get together with like minded parents and set up a school, just like the RC/COI/Educate together parents have done in our town.

Mike 1972 wrote: »

Youll still take their money though.

It's taxpayers money, and Catholic/COI/Educate together parents pay the same taxes, and are entilted to the same funding, as anyone else.

Mike 1972

The Quadratic Equation wrote: »

It does indeed, as soon as they get together with like minded parents and set up a school, just like the RC/COI/Educate together parents have done in our town.

And what of towns where there are insufficent numbers of non-RC parents to qualifty for Dept funding do you just turn around and say "stuff you" ?

Or do you want every town in Ireland to have seperate schools each religious denomination and subdenomination (not forgetting Atheists) regardless of cost :eek:

The Quadratic Equation wrote: »

It's taxpayers money, and Catholic/COI/Educate together parents pay the same taxes, and are entilted to the same funding, as anyone else. .

They all pay taxes and the money all goes into the one pot.

The Quadratic Equation

Mike 1972 wrote: »

And what of towns where there are insufficent numbers of non-RC parents to qualifty for Dept funding

But I thought there was this huge demand for non-RC schools ? Now there is not ? Surely you could rustle up enough intrested parents to have a small school to serve 3 or 4 small towns / villages ? The COI and other minority denominations always managed this model pefectly for generations.

Mike 1972

The Quadratic Equation wrote: »

But I thought there was this huge demand for non-RC schools ? Now there is not ?.

Apologies to other posters for needing to state the blindingly obvious but..........

I think the level of demand might vary slightly between different parts of the country.

lmaopml

Benny_Cake wrote: »

I could be wrong about this (don't have kids myself),but isn't the extent of the church's involvement in a Catholic school that the PP chairs the board of management,and that obviously Catholic religious instruction is provided within school hours. Aside from that,the state generally provides the building,pays the salaries and sets the curriculum.So if the PP was to step aside and be replaced by a parent or other community representative,and RE was provided after hours or in a Sunday School type situation,what would the difference be?

Hi Benny,

I guess it would be all the small things that mean most. Morning prayer, a prayer before lunch - heck even choir practice - All the small and various ways that our faith binds us together as families, as a community in expression etc. - Freedom to express faith in front of others who profess the same faith while living each day..

Including God really in our lives, our education etc. in the morning time and right through the day...rather than excluding him. He doesn't seem to interfer with our childrens learning ability, so I don't see the need to outlaw faith schools as such...

I still admire the ET model, and think there should be greater representation - I think people are going to have to fight for it though, demand it really - especially with cutbacks in education on the cards in the near future...It will take some time I think to find an equilibrium.

Benny_Cake

lmaopml wrote: »

Hi Benny,

I guess it would be all the small things that mean most. Morning prayer, a prayer before lunch - heck even choir practice - All the small and various ways that our faith binds us together as families, as a community in expression etc. - Freedom to express faith in front of others who profess the same faith while living each day..

Including God really in our lives, our education etc. in the morning time and right through the day...rather than excluding him. He doesn't seem to interfer with our childrens learning ability, so I don't see the need to outlaw faith schools as such...

I still admire the ET model, and think there should be greater representation - I think people are going to have to fight for it though, demand it really - especially with cutbacks in education on the cards in the near future...It will take some time I think to find an equilibrium.

I take your point - I had actually forgotten about the morning prayer,which probably explains a lot about me!

I'd be a supporter of Educate Together myself. I think moving RE outside of the classroom would be a good thing for everyone in that it would force parents to get involved in their children's religious upbringing (I know many already are) and it would actually improve life in the parishes and boost a sense of community. Some of the parents would probably learn from it too.